The KEY to understanding WHY all the different denominations

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
Jesus Himself chose who would be pastors and teachers

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ, til we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge
of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting …” (Ephesians 4:11-14)
These gifts, or appointments, are the 5 different kinds of church leaders.

”And God has appointed these in the church:
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers …” (1 Corinthians 12:28)

We are given the reasons (above) why Jesus Himself chose the leaders
He would see to it that all of the churches would have the same doctrines.
False doctrine would be less likely to creep into the churches.
The Holy Spirit would surely lead the Jesus-chosen pastors.
But, would God’s Spirit lead pastors who were NOT chosen by Jesus?

Let’s not forget Satan
He is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of this world.
When man disobeys (rebels against) God, Satan has more of an open doorway to enter!
He hates God, man, churches … and he comes “to steal, kill, and destroy” (John 10:10).

A related observation
Jesus chose His 12 disciples carefully.
They were ordinary men: fishermen, a tax collector, and a revolutionary.
Not one was from the educated religious class of Jews.

A very important question
Did Jesus ever decide to stop choosing who He wanted to be His church leaders?
If so, WHY would He stop … and allow man to choose for himself?

The grievous error
For various reasons, some men decided to appoint themselves to leadership.
This became more and more of a trend … man-run churches!
And many different doctrines, and many different denominations!

Now for the BIGGEST and most important question
Since the original apostles passed away …
what percentage of RCC, EOC, old Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.
priests, ministers, pastors, etc. do you believe have actually been chosen by Jesus?
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 13:1

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
 

KingJ

New Member
Mar 18, 2011
1,568
45
0
41
South Africa
Hi John

To me all the denominations is just a clear sign that the devil has attacked Christianity. Sure God does put pastors and preachers in place. But we have to grasp that He works with what He has available. Most good Christians do simply not make themselves available. Consider Abraham. He was far from perfect, yet he was obviously the most God fearing person around at the time for God to choose him.

'Man appointed churches' are better then nothing, wouldn't you say? The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us, not a church. The Holy Spirit uses what He can to toil the soil around our hearts. Even if its the most carnal ''Christian'' church around :).

justaname said:
Romans 13:1

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
This verse cannot be taken out of context of the entire bible! Jesus is the ultimate authority. If Nero told you to deny Jesus, you would not be in subjection to him, correct?
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here is what Daniel says.

21 “It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.

My point is this, God is in sovereign control over the affairs of men, all men throughout all time. If there is corruption in a particular church, God knows it, and has allowed it. If anyone comes to power it is only through the power of God that they attained it.

As far as subjection is concerned, I am sure conscience and the Holy Spirit will be a witness as to what you should do.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
justaname said:
1. My point is this, God is in sovereign control over the affairs of men, all men throughout all time.
2. If there is corruption in a particular church, God knows it, and has allowed it.
3. If anyone comes to power it is only through the power of God that they attained it.
1. Sure, He can control all kinds of things, if it's His will to do so.
2. God allows man to do all kinds of rotten-to-the-core things ... because he (man) has free will.
3. I've always had problems with this Biblical concept. Maybe some day ...
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John Zain said:
1. Sure, He can control all kinds of things, if it's His will to do so.
2. God allows man to do all kinds of rotten-to-the-core things ... because he (man) has free will.
3. I've always had problems with this Biblical concept. Maybe some day ...
Man has a will to be able to choose but that freedom is restricted, I have a thread on this very topic right now titled God over Free-Will. I think many people have a problem identifying with God's sovereignty, and this is a dividing point for many denominations. Western society has indoctrinated so many with the idea of independence and individualism that the idea of a sovereign God has become almost taboo. To think God can execute His will over the will of any given individual is sacrilegious and somehow our loving God is not loving anymore.
 

IanLC

Active Member
Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
862
80
28
North Carolina
Several denomination (I can speak only for the church which I belong the United Holy Church of America) with in the Holiness and Pentecostal movements were started because many of the CHristians that experienced "sanctification", "holiness" or "Spirit baptism" with the spiritual gifts were cast out of many of their churches. The United Holy Church of America was started when several of these "Holy People" or "Holy Rollers" came together in fellowship because many were cast of out the Methodist and Baptist churches where they had belonged. Now I'm not saying they were justified in starting a seperate denominations but what could they do when they were persecuted and expelled from their churches? Many of these holiness and Pentecostal people where kept from holding jobs, arrested, pastors padlocked, mocked, and called "cultic", "primitive" and "weird for their Holiness and Pentecostal experience. And then their were some that pulled out by themselves and formed churches and assemblies to fellowship with those that shared in the same biblical doctrine and experience. Also their were a small remnant that remained in the Methodist and Baptist churches despite the persecution they faced for their Holiness and Pentecostal experience.
 

Rex

New Member
Oct 17, 2012
2,060
122
0
Kingman AZ
WHY all the different denominations?
I have one word carnal, keep your eyes on the Lord and the carnal inclinations of the heart in check. In other words quit sanctifying men and denominations.

1 Cor 1
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Three chapters latter

1 Cor 3
4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
 

biggandyy

I am here to help...
Oct 11, 2011
1,753
147
0
SWPA
This isn't a thread about the varied distinctiveness of traditional and modern denominations. This is an anti-denominationalist hatchet job and I will continue to ridicule, demean, and treat it like the fluff it is on occasion rather than simply can it.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,795
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
God allows denominations in the same way that He deemed that men should not come together for their own advancement as at the tower of Babel. The true unity is only permitted through the Holy Spirit.
 

Rex

New Member
Oct 17, 2012
2,060
122
0
Kingman AZ
BiggAndyy said:
This isn't a thread about the varied distinctiveness of traditional and modern denominations. This is an anti-denominationalist hatchet job and I will continue to ridicule, demean, and treat it like the fluff it is on occasion rather than simply can it.
I thought it was going to turn into a denominational promotional thread.


Episkopos said:
God allows denominations in the same way that He deemed that men should not come together for their own advancement as at the tower of Babel. The true unity is only permitted through the Holy Spirit.
Is this the next step? the truth? That all roads lead to Rome?

In one context God is not divided, in another I believe God confused the speech of men to keep all of mankind from being corrupted under one man.
That's difficult to achieve when men don't understand one another.
The modern world we live in today has threw technology IMO been erecting the tower of babel once again. It is now very possible for one man to speak and influence all men from a tower made from brick.

The bold I made "for their own advancement" in your post does that reflect denominations as well? It looks like it from your statement?
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Not all Christ's Apostles were uneducated. Apostle Luke was a medical doctor. Apostle Paul was a Bible scholar trained under the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel. Christ would choose Paul to write the majority of The New Testament Books. So that ends any potential 'hate knowledge and study' slander that some in the Church today have gotten from false prophets who want to keep God's people dumbed down, especially within His Word.

God's Word also covers the "various reasons" subject of false ones creeping into God's Church, in both The Old and New Testament Books. Only those of Faith in Christ that realize true Bible study line upon line is how God wants us to be in His Word, would realize that. Those in the Church that have had a long time to study that matter have no excuse in not knowing about it.

The example of a New Testament Apostle of Christ Jesus is mainly about those whom He chose at the beginning of His Ministry that also witnessed His crucifixion and resurrection. Apostle Paul was chosen later, and directed 'personally' by Christ Jesus. Barnabus and Timothy were chosen via The Holy Spirit through Christ's Apostles.

The 'idea' of an apostle per New Testament doctrine simply means one that is 'sent' by Christ, for to be sent is the Greek meaning of the word apostello (Strong's no.649; see John 17 also).

Does that idea of being chosen by Christ and 'sent' always mean an Apostle in the office of leadership over His Church like His original 12, and Paul? No, it can also be applied to any one of His chosen elect that He sent into this world for His Purpose of The Gospel...

John 9:1-10:12
1 And as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"


A specific idea they ask Him there is one of the doctrines some of the Jews had then from ancient paganism (and is still prevailent among some groups of Jews still today). When they asked Christ if it was the blind man's sin that caused him to be born blind, that is the idea of sin from a previous life, which is the eastern doctrine of reincarnation (i.e. many births of the soul).


John 9:3 Jesus answered, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
4 I must work the works of Him That sent Me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."


Jesus answers that the man was born blind from birth so that God's Works would be manifest. But how could that be about God's Works? You'll find out how if you continue this Chapter line upon line. Notice our Lord Jesus brings up the subject of 'being sent' within that.


John 9:6 When He had thus spoken, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing."


Christ sent the blind man to the pool called Siloam which means "Sent". There the blind man was to wash the clay off his eyes. There's a second reference to the idea of one being 'sent' for God's Purpose.


John 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, "Is not this he that sat and begged?"
9 Some said, "This is he": others said, "He is like him": but he said, "I am he."
10 Therefore said they unto him, "How were thine eyes opened?"
11 He answered and said, "A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, 'Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash': and I went and washed, and I received sight."
12 Then said they unto him, "Where is he?" He said, "I know not."
13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.


Here's another repeat of the 'sent' idea, a third reference so far. The man's neighbors marveled and wondered. And what did the blind man do? He WITNESSED Christ Jesus to them. Doing that was a work in service of The Gospel, because the OT prophecy about Christ's coming included these kind of signs of miracles.

Because at that time the people referred all matters of a religious or spiritual nature to the priests and Pharisees, they then 'brought' the man to the Pharisees for questioning.


John 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, "He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see."
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, "This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day." Others said, "How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles?" And there was a division among them.


The Pharisees then asked the man that was blind how he was healed. And what happens? He that was born blind and healed by Christ then WITNESSES The Gospel to those Pharisees. When the Pharisees recognized Jesus' involvement in the matter, they questioned how Jesus could do that, since they believed our Lord Jesus was not of God. And because others among them recognized the miracle, the Pharisees were divided over the matter.

The man blind from birth was SENT to the unbelieving Pharisees to give a Testimony and Witness of Christ Jesus, right among a nest that included unbelievers who sought to kill Jesus. Christ gave this type parallel in Mark 13 also for His elect that are to be delivered up to councils and synagogues to given a Testimony for Him against the false ones, and it's for the end of days prior to His return. So several Scripture events and prophecy are being linked together here with this man that was blind whom Christ sent.


John 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, "What sayest thou of Him, that He hath opened thine eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet."
18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
19 And they asked them, saying, "Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?"
20 His parents answered them and said, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself."


Notice those Pharisees still refused to believe the man that was blind, and instead believed the man had never been blind in the first place. They thought it a hoax. His parents testify that he was born blind, and the Pharisee's dilema of unbelief goes deeper. I like their final answer to them, that their son is an adult, ask him, not us, thus forcing the Pharisees to turn back to the Testimony of the man that was blind, which Christ 'sent'.


John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that He was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
23 Therefore said his parents, "He is of age; ask him."


Note the Pharisees were just waiting... for one of them to speak that Jesus is The Christ of the Old Testament prophecies. And they had planned beforehand to throw out anyone that proclaimed that. This is an important marker showing these Pharisees were false from the get-go. They had NO intention of allowing anyone to disrupt their little playpen they had established for themselves over God's people.

Those Pharisees being well studied in the OT Books and God's prophets, there is no way they could have missed the prophecy of Messiah coming to work miracles like this as a witness of Christ (Isa.35:4-6; Ps.146:8; Isa.42:7; Isa.7; Isa.9; Micah 5; Zech.9:9-10). That is another revelation they were not following God's Word, nor had intention to follow God's Word. If they had believed what God told His prophets about Christ, including what Moses said (Deut.18:15-18), they would have believed Jesus is The Christ of OT prophecy.


John 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, "Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."
25 He answered and said, "Whether He be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see."


Now those Pharisees tried to get the man that was blind to change... his Testimony, falsely claiming they knew that our Lord Jesus was a sinner. The blind man refused to change what he said, and gave his Witness of and for Christ Jesus once again.

Do you 'see' how this event is a type parallel for those of Christ's elect that are to be delivered up to these types of men in the last days, to give His Testimony? If you think you might be one of His elect, then this is an account of what kind of questioning to expect.


John 9:26 Then said they to him again, "What did He to thee? how opened He thine eyes?"
27 He answered them, "I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be His disciples?"
28 Then they reviled him, and said, "Thou art His disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence He is."


Now those Pharisees ask just what Jesus did to relieve the man's blindness. The man kind of begins to scold them, having already told the Pharisees, then asks them if they would become Christ's disciples as a reason why they kept asking him. What these scripture lawyers of the Pharisees are trying to do is get the man to keep repeating his story in hopes to catch him tripping up, just so they can wrongly paste a lie onto his Testimony for Christ. So there's another marker for what to expect for some of Christ's elect in our near future with dealing with those types.

What's the Pharisee's next recourse? They begin to lie and say that man that was blind is actually one of Christ's disciples, like he came planting his story in order to push the teachings of Jesus Whom they wanted to execute. Then what do they lie about next? They begin claiming to be "Mose's disciples". If you read what Moses said in Deut.18:15-18, then what are those Pharisees doing? They're lying through their teeth. If they were truly Moses' disciples they would have listened... to Moses in that Deut.18 Scripture and thus recognized Jesus as that "Prophet" Moses spoke about that was to come.

So we're given several pointers here how these Pharisees were not followers of God and Moses, but only play-acting as if... they were.


John 9:30 The man answered and said unto them, "Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence He is, and yet He hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth His will, him He heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, He could do nothing."


Man, is what that man that was blind is speaking by The Holy Spirit or what!


John 9:34 They answered and said unto him, "Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us?" And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said unto him, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?"
36 He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I might believe on Him?"
37 And Jesus said unto him, "Thou hast both seen Him, and it is He That talketh with thee."
38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshipped Him.


The Pharisees couldn't refute his Testimony for Christ, so they gave up their third-degree and cast the man out. Our Lord Jesus then revealed Himself to the man and the man believed and worshipped Him.


John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, "Are we blind also?"
41 Jesus said unto them, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, 'We see'; therefore your sin remaineth."


Jesus came at His first coming to open up the eyes of the blind (both physically and spiritually). But those spiritually blinded by spiritual darkness because of refusing God's Word, He made those blind. Because those Pharisees claimed they could 'see' (spiritually) while claiming to follow God and His Word when they were not, Jesus told those they remained guilty in their sins, not forgiven. This is why it is very important to stay as close in God's Holy Writ as possible.

That's an example of the idea of a chosen sent one by Christ Jesus that prevents any man from trying to exalt himself into special authority of an Apostleship like Christ's Apostles of His first coming. All of God's elect today that are 'sent' into this world for duty in The Gospel are 'apostles' in this sense, and these are not few.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
um....the Reformation
 

KingJ

New Member
Mar 18, 2011
1,568
45
0
41
South Africa
justaname said:
My point is this, God is in sovereign control over the affairs of men, all men throughout all time. If there is corruption in a particular church, God knows it, and has allowed it. If anyone comes to power it is only through the power of God that they attained it.
God does just not over-ride their free will to do it.
 

biggandyy

I am here to help...
Oct 11, 2011
1,753
147
0
SWPA
God doesn't have to raise a finger to force human nature to corrupt an organization, we are completely and utterly self-corrupting.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
BiggAndyy said:
This isn't a thread about the varied distinctiveness of traditional and modern denominations.
This is an anti-denominationalist hatchet job and I will continue to ridicule, demean,
and treat it like the fluff it is on occasion rather than simply can it.
I am in agreement with the Moderator who recently posted this in a non-Pentecostal Forum ...

"The TRUE churches are those who follow the Bible and who Love God and who love and care for
each other.
I have been to several different denominations over 40 years as a believer, and in my experience the newer ones that I have been to are far far truer to those things than any of the older more tradtional
and religious ones.
They have so many errors it is astounding, and many are spititually dead.
All of the pastors and leaders that I have know in the newer churches have been godly people
called by Him, of that I have no doubt.
I believe that God has led many to start new churches because the old established ones
were failing so miserably and into such serious error."

If warning people about unbiblical churches is a hatchet job, so be it.
God's prophets, evangelists, etc. really couldn't really care less about being persecuted.
Jesus advised us to just shake the dust off our shoes and move on to more receptive people.