The KEY to understanding WHY all the different denominations

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Rex

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John would you care to take the lead in your thread topic?

And please give some detailed "key" information about the reason for so many denominations.
IMO your OP has no information as well as this one, as to the answer of why.

I really dislike it when someone starts a topic and never leads or participates in it. On that fact alone
I would lock this thread If you have nothing in particular to bring into the light.
 

John Zain

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Rex said:
John would you care to take the lead in your thread topic?
And please give some detailed "key" information about the reason for so many denominations.
Many thanks for the invite ... Now I invite you to try reading the OP.
 

Rex

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That's what I thought
And If this thread is going to go anywhere its going to be up to someone else to lead it.
It will be doubtful they will even quote your OP

I vote we just lock it
 

John Zain

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Rex said:
And If this thread is going to go anywhere its going to be up to someone else to lead it.
It will be doubtful they will even quote your OP
And I though this pretty much said it all ...

The grievous error
For various reasons, some men decided to appoint themselves to leadership.
This became more and more of a trend … man-run churches!
And many different doctrines, and many different denominations!
 

Rex

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Thats pretty simplistic but true.
We could also look at over a period of time with-in denominations many reach a point of impasse and break apart each holding a piece of doctrine they claim to be uncompromising. In most cases this is a point that defines the movement as you know.

Why men seek to strap themselves into such things boggles my mind. Anyone by reason can come to the conclusion that If you continually expose yourself to these questionable apologetic teachings that it should be no wonder they start to believe them. All the while knowingly or unknowingly are subjecting themselves to another mans opinion, and rejecting others under the same impasse, the impasse becomes the glue that bonds it locks in as well as locks out.

Churches are the very breading ground of the disunion of the body of Christ. Even the RCC though claiming one church and doctrine, the truth is it's as fragmented from with-in as the number of protestant churches.

Now that we see and know the problem what is the solution?
 

lforrest

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Why all the different denominations? I think this sums it up pretty good if you suppose Jesus spoke of the Catholic church in this parable.

Luke 12:45-46


41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
 

Rex

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lforrest said:
Why all the different denominations? I think this sums it up pretty good if you suppose Jesus spoke of the Catholic church in this parable.

Luke 12:45-46


41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
I was just read Charles Spurgeon and would like to add this bit.
I believe this is still a dividing factor, it was certainly the one that exposed the catholic church and began the reformation.
I find and see the principle of sola scripture in a continued state of decay today.


Downgrade Controversy




Caricature of Spurgeon from Vanity fair (1870)




A controversy among the Baptists flared in 1887 with Spurgeon's first "Down-grade" article, published in The Sword & the Trowel. In the ensuing "Downgrade Controversy," the Metropolitan Tabernacle became disaffiliated from the Baptist Union, effectuating Spurgeon's congregation as the world's largest self-standing church. Contextually the Downgrade Controversy was British Baptists' equivalent of hermeneutic tensions which were starting to divide Protestant fellowships in general.
The Controversy took its name from Spurgeon's use of the term "Downgrade" to describe certain other Baptists' outlook toward the Bible (i.e., they had "downgraded" the Bible and the principle of sola scriptura).[13] Spurgeon alleged that an incremental creeping of the Graf-Wellhausen hypothesis[citation needed], Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and other concepts was weakening the Baptist Union and reciprocally explaining the success of his own evangelistic efforts. The standoff even split his pupils trained at the College, each side accusing the other of raising issues which did not need to be raised

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon
 

John Zain

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Rex said:
Why men seek to strap themselves into such things boggles my mind.
If thou understood the following, your mind wouldn't be boggled at all ...

Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot.

So, he must totally rely only on the Scriptures and the Spirit for spiritual truth.
Problem is ... he can't understand the Scriptures without the Spirit.
Without the Spirit, he must choose between his church leaders and the Scriptures.

P.S. Thou art doing a great job @ leading the discussion.
 

HammerStone

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See, this is somewhat problematic for me because if you look at what led to and happened at the Jerusalem Council (such as the decree in Acts 15:7-11 HCSB) and throughout the book of Acts, there was some tension on taking the message to the gentiles and on following Mosaic law. It can be gleaned from the same book that some were very intent on witnessing to the Jews and others on going to the gentiles. Paul states that his mission was the latter.

While they did not go out and start the church of Peter and the church of Paul, there were divisions on how the Scriptures were to be interpreted. This was not all that far removed from Jesus's time on Earth, and even involved his disciples.

Denominations aren't all that new - they're just all named now. I do stand against hyper-denominationalism which you do see, but Jesus said he would bring division (Luke 12:51-52 HCSB). Denominations, like the church, aren't perfect. But, we do have a Savior who redeems.
 

Rex

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I'm boggled by the fact that many only expose themselves to a particular denomination for life. I think we could all agree that when Jesus returns he's not going to make a B-line to a selected "church" or "denomination". If that is an agreed upon observation of the reality then you can understand why I'm boggled or fascinated with this attribute of men that leads to dogmatic religious sects.

These people presume the knowledge shared is the purest form of Gods presentation manifest threw the leaders of said church. The natural out come is reverence and elevating a man before men. Then next is the dependence on the man to lead in every aspect of knowledge, when the scripture teaches that we are to have a personal relationship with Christ rather than a proxy relationship dependent on or continually influenced by a third party.

My observation outside religion is when I see dogmatic extremes whether it be politics, sports, news, cars, the best of anything or where opinion plays a part, the truth is many times best found between the ex-streams. For a better biblical description it's described as the narrow path or door. In following this line of thought we naturally disregard the tendency to be lead by an official or organized entity, and If we be in Christ trusting in what the Spirit has to say to your heart rather than presuming we must make a discerning choice from the plate that others have chosen from.

I see HammerStone has just posted and from reading his reply I can see he is perhaps in agreement with my struggle to express my thoughts.
I do practice what I believe, I resist identifying myself with a religion, and because of technology I listen to many different denominational teachers and have for many years, the result is some I learn a great deal from, and not much from others. My point that I have been expanding on is the greater part of Christians choose to strap themselves in to a favorite team.


I am not in competition or conflict with other men, I am in a conflict with the weakness of my natural man vs my spiritual man.
In whom I have only one advocate and teacher.


BTW this is a great observation of the point I am trying to make.
HammerStone said:
See, this is somewhat problematic for me because if you look at what led to and happened at the Jerusalem Council (such as the decree in Acts 15:7-11 HCSB) and throughout the book of Acts, there was some tension on taking the message to the gentiles and on following Mosaic law. It can be gleaned from the same book that some were very intent on witnessing to the Jews and others on going to the gentiles. Paul states that his mission was the latter.

While they did not go out and start the church of Peter and the church of Paul, there were divisions on how the Scriptures were to be interpreted. This was not all that far removed from Jesus's time on Earth, and even involved his disciples.

Denominations aren't all that new - they're just all named now. I do stand against hyper-denominationalism which you do see, but Jesus said he would bring division (Luke 12:51-52 HCSB). Denominations, like the church, aren't perfect. But, we do have a Savior who redeems.
 

aspen

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Rex said:
Churches are the very breading ground of the disunion of the body of Christ. Even the RCC though claiming one church and doctrine, the truth is it's as fragmented from with-in as the number of protestant churches.
Really? How many different versions of the Catechisms are published by the Vatican?
 

tomcat3443

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I enjoyed all the commits on this subject. It is one that to grasp you would have to go back many years, to the " CHRUCH FATHERS."

Whether you profess to be a Christian or not, your perception of the God of the Bible, of Jesus, and of Christianity may well have been influenced by them. One of them was called Golden-Mouthed; another, Great. Collectively, they have been described as “the supreme embodiments of the life of Christ.” They are the ancient religious thinkers, writers, theologians, and philosophers who have shaped much of today’s “Christian” thinking—the Church Fathers.


“THE Bible is not the totality of God’s word,” claims Greek Orthodox professor of religious studies Demetrios J. Constantelos. “The Holy Spirit that reveals the word of God cannot be confined to the pages of a book.” What could possibly be another reliable source of divine revelation? Constantelos asserts in his book Understanding the Greek Orthodox Church: “Holy Tradition and Holy Scriptures [are] viewed as two sides of the same coin.”


The core of that “Holy Tradition” includes the teachings and writings of the Church Fathers. They were prominent theologians and “Christian” philosophers who lived between the second and fifth centuries C.E. How much have they influenced modern “Christian” thought? Did they hold fast to the Bible in their teaching? What should be the solid basis of Christian truth for a follower of Jesus Christ?





In the middle of the second century C.E., professed Christians were defending their faith against Roman persecutors and heretics alike. However, this was an era of too many theological voices. Religious debates regarding the “divinity” of Jesus and the nature and workings of the holy spirit caused more than just intellectual rifts. Bitter disagreements and irreparable divisions over “Christian” doctrine spilled over into the political and cultural spheres, at times causing riots, rebellion, civil strife, even war. Writes historian Paul Johnson: “[Apostate] Christianity began in confusion, controversy and schism and so it continued. . . . The central and eastern Mediterranean in the first and second centuries AD swarmed with an infinite multitude of religious ideas, struggling to propagate themselves. . . . From the start, then, there were numerous varieties of Christianity which had little in common.”


During that era, writers and thinkers who felt that it was imperative to interpret “Christian” teachings using philosophical terms began to flourish. To satisfy educated pagans who were new converts to “Christianity,” such religious writers relied heavily on earlier Greek and Jewish literature. Beginning with Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 C.E.), who wrote in Greek, professed Christians became increasingly sophisticated in their assimilation of the philosophical heritage of the Greek culture.


This trend came to fruition in the writings of Origen (c. 185-254 C.E.), a Greek author from Alexandria. Origen’s treatise On First Principles was the first systematic effort to explain the main doctrines of “Christian” theology in terms of Greek philosophy. The Council of Nicaea (325 C.E.), with its attempt to explain and establish the “divinity” of Christ, was the milestone that gave new impetus to interpretation of “Christian” dogma. That council marked the beginning of an era during which general church councils sought to define dogma ever more precisely.





Eusebius of Caesarea, who wrote at the time of the first Council of Nicaea, associated himself with Emperor Constantine. For slightly more than 100 years after Nicaea, theologians, most of them writing in Greek, worked out in a long and bitter debate what was to be the distinguishing doctrine of Christendom, the Trinity. Chief among them were Athanasius, the assertive bishop of Alexandria, and three church leaders from Cappadocia, Asia Minor—Basil the Great, his brother Gregory of Nyssa, and their friend Gregory of Nazianzus.


Writers and preachers during that age achieved high standards of eloquence. Gregory of Nazianzus and John Chrysostom (meaning “Golden-Mouthed”) in Greek as well as Ambrose of Milan and Augustine of Hippo in Latin were consummate orators, masters of the most respected and popular art form of their time. The most influential writer of that period was Augustine. His theological treatises have pervasively shaped the “Christian” thinking of today. Jerome, the period’s most distinguished man of letters, was chiefly responsible for the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible from the original languages.


However, important questions are: Did those Church Fathers adhere closely to the Bible? In their teaching, did they hold fast to the inspired Scriptures? Are their writings a safe guide to an accurate knowledge of God?





Recently, Greek Orthodox Metropolitan Methodius of Pisidia wrote the book The Hellenic Pedestal of Christianity in order to show that Greek culture and philosophy provided the infrastructure of modern “Christian” thought. In that book, he unhesitantly admits: “Almost all the prominent Church Fathers considered the Greek elements most useful, and they borrowed them from the Greek classical antiquity, using them as a means to understand and correctly express the Christian truths.”


Take, for example, the idea that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit make up the Trinity. Many Church Fathers after the Council of Nicaea became staunch Trinitarians. Their writings and expositions were crucial to making the Trinity a landmark doctrine of Christendom. However, is the Trinity found in the Bible? No. So where did the Church Fathers get it? A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.” And The Paganism in Our Christianity affirms: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”*John 3:16; 14:28.


Or consider the teaching of the immortality of the soul, a belief that some part of man lives on after the body dies. Again, the Church Fathers were instrumental in introducing this notion to a religion that had no teaching about a soul surviving death. The Bible clearly shows that the soul can die: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) What was the basis for the Church Fathers’ belief in an immortal soul? “The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen in the East and St. Augustine in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . [Augustine’s doctrine] . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism,” says the New Catholic Encyclopedia. And the magazine Presbyterian Life says: “Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”*





After even this brief examination of the historical backdrop of the Church Fathers, as well as the origins of their teachings, it is appropriate to ask, Should a sincere Christian base his or her beliefs on the teachings of the Church Fathers? Let the Bible answer.


For one thing, Jesus Christ himself ruled out the use of the religious title “Father” when he said: “Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.” (Matthew 23:9) The use of the term “Father” to designate any religious figure is unchristian and unscriptural. The written Word of God was completed about 98 C.E. with the writings of the apostle John. Thus, true Christians do not need to look to any human as the source of inspired revelation. They are careful not to ‘make the word of God invalid’ because of human tradition. Letting human tradition take the place of God’s Word is spiritually lethal. Jesus warned: “If . . . a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”—Matthew 15:6, 14.


Does a Christian need any revelation besides the word of God as contained in the Bible? No. The book of Revelation cautions against adding anything to the inspired record: “If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll.”—Revelation 22:18.


Christian truth is embodied in the written Word of God, the Bible. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 John 1-4) The correct understanding of it does not hinge on secular philosophy. Regarding men who tried to use human wisdom to explain divine revelation, it is fitting to repeat the apostle Paul’s questions: “Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish?”—1 Corinthians 1:20.


Moreover, the true Christian congregation is “a pillar and support of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15) Its overseers safeguard the purity of their teaching within the congregation, preventing any doctrinal pollutant from creeping in. (2 Timothy 2:15-18, 25) They keep out of the congregation ‘false prophets, false teachers, and destructive sects.’ (2 Peter 2:1) After the death of the apostles, the Church Fathers allowed “misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons” to take root in the Christian congregation.—1 Timothy 4:1.


The consequences of this apostasy are evident in Christendom today. Its beliefs and practices are a far cry from Bible truth. If we would hold to what the Bible teaches instead of human philophy we would not have all these denominations. Also the reformation did little to help.
 

John Zain

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HammerStone said:
Denominations aren't all that new - they're just all named now.
I do stand against hyper-denominationalism which you do see,
but Jesus said he would bring division (Luke 12:51-52 HCSB).
My biggest interest is to show that ...

God always intended for His NT church to be the model for all future churches,
and God's perfect will was derailed by church leaders.

Of course, this is not to say that Satan prevailed over the church,
but he did prevail over God's perfect will.

IMO, the division Christ talked about bringing was between believers and non-believers,
even in the same household.
 

Rex

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tomcat
I can't but notice the bulk of what you posted comes directly from a denominational website.

Aspen
and how many bibles are there published
 

Foreigner

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Rex,
Aspen is the wrong person to ask about the ins and outs of Catholicism.

- He supports Gay Marraige even though the stance of the Catholic church is that it is a sin against God, and the Pope says it will bring on the end of civilization.

- He supports unfettered access to abortion (for the good fo the child) even though the Catholic church joins the rest of Christianity in calling it murder.

- He also voiced support for the validity of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas....in which it is says that Jesus killed two children and struck several adults blind when he was a child, and is credited with multiple quotes that are found nowhere in any of the original Gospels.

Aspen marches to the drum of Aspen, not the Catholic church.
 

rockytopva

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If I may present my view on the seven churches...

Ephesus - Apostolic
Smyrna - Martyrs
Pergamos - Orthodox
Thyatira - Catholic
Sardis - Protestant
Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal
Laodicea - More Charismatic independent



I was brought up in the Marine Corps and the Baptist church. I had thought that all Catholics were going to hell and that speaking of tongues was of the devil.

All that changed when I came here to farm-land here in south western Virginia. I started working with mom's kin and the people were very much joyful, happy, and alive. I started going to the Pentecostal church with them and then the Holy Spirit started speaking through me as well. Everything was warm, loving, just like episodes out of the Waltons.

I have come to learn that these type revivals all started with John Wesley. Wesley’s journal from Jan. 1, 1739: “About sixty of our brethren until three in the morning, the power of God came mightily on us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.” John Wesley prayed, “Lord send us revival without its defects but if this is not possible, send revival, defects and all.”

Whitefield wrote of many falling to the ground, trembling exceedingly with strong convulsions. People fell down, cried out, trembled with convulsive twitchings. Sinners dropped down, shrieking, groaning, crying for mercy, convulsed, agonizing, fainting, falling down in distress or in raptures of joy. The noise was like a roar of Niagara. The vast sea of human beings as agitated by a storm. Seized with convulsive jerking all over. So even in the days of Whitefield and Wesley we had everything but the speaking in tongues.


Virginia come to develop its own unique brand of Methodism. To describe these services I must turn to George Clark Rankin who worked this areas Methodist circuit. Here is the url in which must be opened with IE...(http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/rankin/rankin.html) ... And a few excerpts...

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.
The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

These revivals continued after 1900 in the form of the Pentecostal Holiness church, to which I belong. We still carry the old Cripple Creek camp meeting tradition of men praying on the left side of the church and the woman on the right. No one remember why. It is a Virginia thing that has been passed down since the mid-1700's. I personally wish someone would revive these old Virginian ways but fear that these things are unique within their dispensation. I have posted the life of RS Sheffey here (http://www.christianforums.com/t7630646/) in which the good people of Bob Jones have made a movie called "Sheffey.'
 

IanLC

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Many attribute the Pentecostal movement to either Topeka or Azusa Street which is not entirely true. There were Pentecostal manifestations in many Holiness churches throughout the 19th century such as the United Holy Church of America Inc. established in 1886.
 

Rex

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Foreigner said:
Rex,
Aspen is the wrong person to ask about the ins and outs of Catholicism.

- He supports Gay Marraige even though the stance of the Catholic church is that it is a sin against God, and the Pope says it will bring on the end of civilization.

- He supports unfettered access to abortion (for the good fo the child) even though the Catholic church joins the rest of Christianity in calling it murder.

- He also voiced support for the validity of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas....in which it is says that Jesus killed two children and struck several adults blind when he was a child, and is credited with multiple quotes that are found nowhere in any of the original Gospels.

Aspen marches to the drum of Aspen, not the Catholic church.
Then he makes my point that the RCC is comprised of many different people with many different ideas that fall outside the churches official position.
Fractured on the inside.

I have no idea what the last two post have to do with the OP topic?
Maybe it also proves my point LOL


I guess some people just can't resist standing up there god where ever they go.


Hyper denominationalism
HammerStone said:
.

Denominations aren't all that new - they're just all named now. I do stand against hyper-denominationalism which you do see,
 

Rocky Wiley

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John Zain said:
Now for the BIGGEST and most important question
Since the original apostles passed away …
what percentage of RCC, EOC, old Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.
priests, ministers, pastors, etc. do you believe have actually been chosen by Jesus?
Hi John,

Great post and comments.

What percentage are actually chosen by Jesus, I don't know, but probably pretty low. Like you, I have attended several churches and the most likely ones seem to be the Non-denominational pastors.
Most of those in denominational churches it is all about control. In one Apostolic Holiness Church, one must tithe, look holy or be ridiculed from the pulpit. Women were told how to dress, have uncut hair, and no makeup. The worship leader was the son or son--in-law. Music director was daughter or daughter in-law. All received pay for doing, supposedly, something God called them to do. It was a business and you might call it the cleaners, because that is where the congregation was being taken.

In the non-denominational, the Pastor is truly called, the congregation is led, but not forced to do anything that God has not put in their heart. He takes a modest pay for doing God's work and never asks for tithing and the people repond to offerings. I have seen one family come to church claiming that they needed money to continue their travels, doubtful? maybe, but at the end of the service the pastor ask for an offering for this family, and we responded by giving over $500.

One must be careful of the one we follow or we might take on the attitude, holier than thou.