Simple Chart of End Times Events

veteran · Mar 26, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

The part you have bold-faced above is not only not about the Messiah, it is also not about the "prince that shall come!" It's about the "PEOPLE of the prince that shall come!" The "of the prince that shall come" is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! It's merely an adjective that describes WHICH people! The "prince that shall come" is just the object of the preposition! As such, it has no part in the sentence by itself!

Yes, it's about the people of that prince that shall come also, but does that mean to deny that object there of that prince? No, of course not. Yet that's exactly... what you've tried to do!

We're even given a later reference about that 'prince' and the people of that verse...

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

JosyWales · Mar 28, 2013

I have expanded on my last topic in my previous document, so I will include the upgrade now.

Michael the Archangel

One last thing to mention here is the appearance of Michael, who will be one of the Seven Angels and will be born as a man on the earth. Michael will be the Second Angel of Revelation and will follow the pattern of Daniel. This is why Daniel was so important in this chain of events. It was he who was laying out the future path that Michael (his Prince, as stated in Daniel 10:21) would follow.

There is much evidence to support this, such as in Ezekiel 9:2-3 & 11, w here the one who is clothed in linen and has the “writers inkhorn by his side” is singled out by God for a special purpose, ie: to go before the others and mark all those who are to be saved from the wrath of those Angels who were commanded by God to follow behind him and destroy all the wicked that are unmarked by him. Michael will also record the events that happen to him during the Apocalypse for those in the future to read just as Daniel did during his event. Also the odd passage in Revelation 2:10 in relation to the 2nd Angel being given ‘tribulation’ for 10 days is a match to Daniel 1 where Daniel and his friends are tried for 10 days. This also makes sense of Daniel’s comment in Daniel 2:30 which reads:

But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any living, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. (KJV)

Some interpret this to be Daniel referring to himself and his friends who are with him at this event, but I have always felt it was Daniel signifying that he knew that what he was doing would be used as an instruction for those who would be repeating this event in the future.

There is much more anecdotal evidence that fits this and explains who the Mighty and Strong Angel of Revelation is. This person is Michael and he is following the pattern of his predecessor Daniel, who had already lived out and recorded an accurate record of events for him to gain knowledge from.

It there is also a connection between Michael and a group of Seven who are to be known as the ‘Seven Thunders’.

While who these people are is not directly noted, there is some scripture that indicates something about them in the Old Testament.

In reading the Old Testament, you find the mention several times of a man known simply as “The Branch”. Reference to this person is found in several passages including:

Isa 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

As you can see, an interesting prophecy concerning Seven Women and this person called the Branch is noted here in Isaiah.

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

This continuation of the prophecy of the Branch in Isaiah is important because we can now see that this Branch is not Jesus, because Jesus, while never referred to as the Branch, is referred to as the Root of David here:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loosethe seven seals thereof.

And refers to Himself as such here:

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

The meaning of these scriptures is to indicate that Michael as coming after Jesus and will be his follower in that the Branch comes from the root as these scripture say.

Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness togrow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Because of the scripture I have just showed you, I believe that this prophecy is a reference to Michael growing up unto Jesus and performing the works in Revelation that are attributed to the Mighty and Strong Angel mentioned several times therein.

Zec 3:8 Hearnow, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: forthey [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be]seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Here we have a second tie into seven people being associated with this person known as the Branch. We also know that Joshua was the Old Testament name of Jesus. However, this passage might have a dual meaning in that someone, possibly one of the Two Witnesses will be presented with Michael during the Apocalypse and this is how he recognizes who he is.

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and hes hall build the temple of the LORD:

And here we see that this person is to be responsible for the rebuilding of the Temple of the Lord, which would tie in to the mention of such an action in Daniel 9, as in a rebuilding of the temple here in modern times.

The symbolism behind the meaning of what God is trying to convey to us by using this term “Branch” is found in many places in the Bible such as:

Psa 80:15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch [that] thou madest strong for thyself.

Pro 11:28 He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

There is one more set of scriptures that I need to show you to make what I am about to write make sense. It is found in Zechariah 1 here:

Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white

Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].

Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Zec 1:12 ¶ Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

Zec 1:13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me [with] good words [and] comfortable words.

These passages seem to be completely overlooked by modern scholars. In them we are told that the Rider of the Red Horse is the Angel of the Lord. We are also shown a connection between him and the Seventy Years of Jeremiah which is related to the Seventy Weeks of Daniel.

There is also in Zec 4, the mention of ‘Two Olive Trees’, who are also referred to as the ‘Two Olive Branches’ and finally ‘The Two Anointed Ones’. These are certain to be the Two Witnesses of Revelation, and they are supplying someone who is symbolically pictured as a Candlestick with a golden bowl on top of it, (and who is later referred to as ”the god of the Whole Earth”) that feeds Seven lamps with a golden oil that it receives from these Two Olive Trees. In this we have yet another connection to what appears to be Michael and Seven other people whom he supports.

However, there is one more thing that is there but not as apparent, and that is the mention of the Angel of the Lord standing among the Myrtle trees.

It was clear to me upon reading the scripture found in Zec 1 that this mention of Myrtle trees in this instance in association with the Angel of the Lord who is the Rider of the RedHorse, was somehow symbolic of something, but I had no idea what it could be.

However, in my study of the Bible, I came to understand that often the people’s names therein held meanings that were important because they often described their character in the biblical stories they were involved in. A great example of this is where the rich man named Nabal, whose name means ‘folly’, committed folly against David while David fled Saul in the Wilderness. This story is found in 1 Samuel 25:2 – 42.

Because of this, I began to look up the meaning of everyone’s name in the bible as I came across it. It was during one of these searches as I was reading the Book of Esther, that I found that Esther was actually her Persian name, but her Hebrew name was Hadassah. When I looked up her name in Strong’s Concordance, I found that it is interpreted to mean “myrtle”.

With this information, along with all the scriptures linking Michael with the Seven Thunders in Revelation11, the Branch, who I am sure is Michael in Isa 4 with 7 women, and now this reference to the Rider of the Red Horse, who is also the Angel of the Lord (once again a reference to Michael) as standing among the Myrtle trees, I have come to believe that the Seven Thunders are actually the seven women of Isa 4 and each of them will have the character of Esther in some way. This seems to be supported over and over in the scriptures I have found above, although it is difficult to tell where they might have come from. I speculate that they are each connected to one of the Seven Angels and this is why they are called ‘Eyes’ in the sense of each holding a viewpoint that relates to the particular Angel they originally came from, and now work together with Michael to form this perfect relationship that will be found in the Wilderness during the time of the rule of the Beast of Revelation during the 42 month reign of his Kingdom.

daq · Mar 28, 2013

JosyWales said:
I have expanded on my last topic in my previous document, so I will include the upgrade now.

Michael the Archangel

One last thing to mention here is the appearance of Michael, who will be one of the Seven Angels and will be born as a man on the earth. Michael will be the Second Angel of Revelation and will follow the pattern of Daniel. This is why Daniel was so important in this chain of events. It was he who was laying out the future path that Michael (his Prince, as stated in Daniel 10:21) would follow.

There is much evidence to support this, such as in Ezekiel 9:2-3 & 11, w here the one who is clothed in linen and has the “writers inkhorn by his side” is singled out by God for a special purpose, ie: to go before the others and mark all those who are to be saved from the wrath of those Angels who were commanded by God to follow behind him and destroy all the wicked that are unmarked by him. Michael will also record the events that happen to him during the Apocalypse for those in the future to read just as Daniel did during his event. Also the odd passage in Revelation 2:10 in relation to the 2nd Angel being given ‘tribulation’ for 10 days is a match to Daniel 1 where Daniel and his friends are tried for 10 days. This also makes sense of Daniel’s comment in Daniel 2:30 which reads:

But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any living, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. (KJV)

Some interpret this to be Daniel referring to himself and his friends who are with him at this event, but I have always felt it was Daniel signifying that he knew that what he was doing would be used as an instruction for those who would be repeating this event in the future.

There is much more anecdotal evidence that fits this and explains who the Mighty and Strong Angel of Revelation is. This person is Michael and he is following the pattern of his predecessor Daniel, who had already lived out and recorded an accurate record of events for him to gain knowledge from.

It there is also a connection between Michael and a group of Seven who are to be known as the ‘Seven Thunders’.

While who these people are is not directly noted, there is some scripture that indicates something about them in the Old Testament.

In reading the Old Testament, you find the mention several times of a man known simply as “The Branch”. Reference to this person is found in several passages including:

Isa 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

As you can see, an interesting prophecy concerning Seven Women and this person called the Branch is noted here in Isaiah.

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

This continuation of the prophecy of the Branch in Isaiah is important because we can now see that this Branch is not Jesus, because Jesus, while never referred to as the Branch, is referred to as the Root of David here:

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loosethe seven seals thereof.

And refers to Himself as such here:

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

The meaning of these scriptures is to indicate that Michael as coming after Jesus and will be his follower in that the Branch comes from the root as these scripture say.

Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness togrow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Because of the scripture I have just showed you, I believe that this prophecy is a reference to Michael growing up unto Jesus and performing the works in Revelation that are attributed to the Mighty and Strong Angel mentioned several times therein.

Zec 3:8 Hearnow, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: forthey [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone [shall be]seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Here we have a second tie into seven people being associated with this person known as the Branch. We also know that Joshua was the Old Testament name of Jesus. However, this passage might have a dual meaning in that someone, possibly one of the Two Witnesses will be presented with Michael during the Apocalypse and this is how he recognizes who he is.

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and hes hall build the temple of the LORD:

And here we see that this person is to be responsible for the rebuilding of the Temple of the Lord, which would tie in to the mention of such an action in Daniel 9, as in a rebuilding of the temple here in modern times.

The symbolism behind the meaning of what God is trying to convey to us by using this term “Branch” is found in many places in the Bible such as:

Psa 80:15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch [that] thou madest strong for thyself.

Pro 11:28 He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

There is one more set of scriptures that I need to show you to make what I am about to write make sense. It is found in Zechariah 1 here:

Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white

Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what [are] these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these [be].

Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These [are they] whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Zec 1:12 ¶ Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

Zec 1:13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me [with] good words [and] comfortable words.

These passages seem to be completely overlooked by modern scholars. In them we are told that the Rider of the Red Horse is the Angel of the Lord. We are also shown a connection between him and the Seventy Years of Jeremiah which is related to the Seventy Weeks of Daniel.

There is also in Zec 4, the mention of ‘Two Olive Trees’, who are also referred to as the ‘Two Olive Branches’ and finally ‘The Two Anointed Ones’. These are certain to be the Two Witnesses of Revelation, and they are supplying someone who is symbolically pictured as a Candlestick with a golden bowl on top of it, (and who is later referred to as ”the god of the Whole Earth”) that feeds Seven lamps with a golden oil that it receives from these Two Olive Trees. In this we have yet another connection to what appears to be Michael and Seven other people whom he supports.

However, there is one more thing that is there but not as apparent, and that is the mention of the Angel of the Lord standing among the Myrtle trees.

It was clear to me upon reading the scripture found in Zec 1 that this mention of Myrtle trees in this instance in association with the Angel of the Lord who is the Rider of the RedHorse, was somehow symbolic of something, but I had no idea what it could be.

However, in my study of the Bible, I came to understand that often the people’s names therein held meanings that were important because they often described their character in the biblical stories they were involved in. A great example of this is where the rich man named Nabal, whose name means ‘folly’, committed folly against David while David fled Saul in the Wilderness. This story is found in 1 Samuel 25:2 – 42.

Because of this, I began to look up the meaning of everyone’s name in the bible as I came across it. It was during one of these searches as I was reading the Book of Esther, that I found that Esther was actually her Persian name, but her Hebrew name was Hadassah. When I looked up her name in Strong’s Concordance, I found that it is interpreted to mean “myrtle”.

With this information, along with all the scriptures linking Michael with the Seven Thunders in Revelation11, the Branch, who I am sure is Michael in Isa 4 with 7 women, and now this reference to the Rider of the Red Horse, who is also the Angel of the Lord (once again a reference to Michael) as standing among the Myrtle trees, I have come to believe that the Seven Thunders are actually the seven women of Isa 4 and each of them will have the character of Esther in some way. This seems to be supported over and over in the scriptures I have found above, although it is difficult to tell where they might have come from. I speculate that they are each connected to one of the Seven Angels and this is why they are called ‘Eyes’ in the sense of each holding a viewpoint that relates to the particular Angel they originally came from, and now work together with Michael to form this perfect relationship that will be found in the Wilderness during the time of the rule of the Beast of Revelation during the 42 month reign of his Kingdom.

Perhaps you are not far from truly having your eyes opened. However, the final leap of faith is a great chasm. The "man clothed in linen with the writers ink horn" by his side is the same "man clothed in linen" found in the opening of the vision in Daniel 10:5, and again upon the waters of the river in Daniel 12:6, (who lifts both hands to heaven and swears by him that lives forever). This man is the same "Palmowniy-wonderful numberer" also of Daniel 8:13, (Paliy'-pala' from the name "too wonderful" in Judges 13:18). It is the job of one man, and one man only, to write the name of God in the foreheads of his servants and that man is the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek:

Revelation 3:12 KJV
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He is also known as the "Tzemach Tzedek" ~ "BRANCH OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV
5. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

YIRMEYAH 23:5 OJB (http://ojb.scripturetext.com/jeremiah/23.htm)
5. Hinei, the days come, saith Hashem, that I will raise up unto Dovid a Tzemach Tzaddik [I.E., MOSHIACH BEN DOVID YEHOSHUA, SEE 30:9; 33:15; ZECH 3:8 EZRA 3:8; ZECH 6:11-12; MT 2:23; ISA 4:2; 9:27; 11:1-12; 53:2,11; MOSHIACH THE NEW "JOSHUA" ISA 49:8], and a Melech shall reign and act wisely, and shall execute mishpat and tzedakah in ha'aretz.

veteran · Mar 31, 2013

JosyWales said:
I have expanded on my last topic in my previous document, so I will include the upgrade now.

Michael the Archangel

One last thing to mention here is the appearance of Michael, who will be one of the Seven Angels and will be born as a man on the earth. Michael will be the Second Angel of Revelation and will follow the pattern of Daniel. This is why Daniel was so important in this chain of events. It was he who was laying out the future path that Michael (his Prince, as stated in Daniel 10:21) would follow.

No Biblical evidence anywhere that the Archangel Michael will ever be born... in the flesh. In Gen.18 when "three men" appeared at Abraham's tent door, they appeared out of nowhere, and One of them was The LORD as shown there. The other two men were the two angels sent to Sodom and Gomorrah to bring Lot and his family out. Angels appeared on earth to God's people in several Biblical examples, and it does not show any of them being born through woman's womb to get here.

I don't know who started that crazy line of reasoning that for an angel to manifest walking upon this earth they must be born in the flesh, but that idea is nowhere supported in God's Word.

JosyWales said:
There is much evidence to support this, such as in Ezekiel 9:2-3 & 11, w here the one who is clothed in linen and has the “writers inkhorn by his side” is singled out by God for a special purpose, ie: to go before the others and mark all those who are to be saved from the wrath of those Angels who were commanded by God to follow behind him and destroy all the wicked that are unmarked by him. Michael will also record the events that happen to him during the Apocalypse for those in the future to read just as Daniel did during his event. Also the odd passage in Revelation 2:10 in relation to the 2nd Angel being given ‘tribulation’ for 10 days is a match to Daniel 1 where Daniel and his friends are tried for 10 days. This also makes sense of Daniel’s comment in Daniel 2:30 which reads:

But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any living, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart. (KJV)

Some interpret this to be Daniel referring to himself and his friends who are with him at this event, but I have always felt it was Daniel signifying that he knew that what he was doing would be used as an instruction for those who would be repeating this event in the future.

There is much more anecdotal evidence that fits this and explains who the Mighty and Strong Angel of Revelation is. This person is Michael and he is following the pattern of his predecessor Daniel, who had already lived out and recorded an accurate record of events for him to gain knowledge from.

It there is also a connection between Michael and a group of Seven who are to be known as the ‘Seven Thunders’.

While who these people are is not directly noted, there is some scripture that indicates something about them in the Old Testament.

In reading the Old Testament, you find the mention several times of a man known simply as “The Branch”. Reference to this person is found in several passages including:

Isa 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

As you can see, an interesting prophecy concerning Seven Women and this person called the Branch is noted here in Isaiah.

Isa 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

This continuation of the prophecy of the Branch in Isaiah is important because we can now see that this Branch is not Jesus, because Jesus, while never referred to as the Branch, is referred to as the Root of David here:

The Jehovah's Witness group believe that the Archangel Michael is our Lord Jesus, but that idea was instituted by those like Russel who began that religious movement. Michael is NOT our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is NOT an angel in any heavenly specie sense, since He created the angels. Christ Jesus was not created, which is why one of His Titles is "Immanuel", meaning 'God with us' (Matt.1:23).

Jesus Christ IS... The BRANCH which the OT prophets foretold of.

Isa 11:1-5
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
(KJV)

JESUS CHRIST is the Object of both these Scriptures.

Rev 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself.
13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(KJV)

Brethren, there's a major warning to be had with what Josey has posted with applying the Archangel Michael into Scripture which only applies to our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a warning from Apostle Paul...

Col 2:18
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(KJV)

To imply that the Archangel Michael and our Lord Jesus Christ are one and the same is to fall away from Christ into the falseness of worshipping angels. Worship our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ, not angels.

Retrobyter · Mar 31, 2013

Shalom, veteran, and Happy Resurrection Day!

veteran said:
Yes, it's about the people of that prince that shall come also, but does that mean to deny that object there of that prince? No, of course not. Yet that's exactly... what you've tried to do!

We're even given a later reference about that 'prince' and the people of that verse...

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

No, brother, that's not the same event. First of all, Dani'el 11 is SPECIFICALLY talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes because in that chapter we are seeing the whole history from the last few kings of the Medo-Persian Empire, beginning with the first year of Daryavesh (Darius) the Mede, uncle and father-in-law of Koresh (Cyrus) the Great, to the rulers of the Roman occupation of Isra'el, the emperor Caesar Augustus and the king Herod the Great, his sub regent. Herod is now known to have died in 4 B.C. These verses have NOTHING to do with some future "antichrist" figure.

Secondly, you're missing the point in making mention that "the prince that shall come" is found within the PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! As the object of the preposition, it does not contribute to the main thought of the sentence and is not itself part of either the subject or the predicate of the sentence. It is the prepositional phrase itself AS A UNIT that contributes as an adjective phrase to describe the subject of the sentence, the "people." It answers the question, "Which people?"

Question: Which people?
Answer: The people OF THE PRINCE (THAT SHALL COME).

The subordinate clause "that shall come" also is a modifier answering the question "Which prince?" Haven't you ever diagrammed sentences? You should try it sometime! You may learn a thing or two about our language.

As such, "the prince (that shall come)" also cannot be the antecedent of the pronouns in verse 27! And, as I've said several times before, that's true not only for the English translations but also for the Hebrew! The "prince that shall come" (Hebrew: "naagiyd habaa'") is the secondary noun in a noun construct state.

The "PEOPLE of the prince that shall come" were the Romans.
The "prince that shall come" was Titus!
However, the antecedent of the words "he" in verse 27 refers back to the "Messiah" of verse 26! It was HE who "strengthened the covenant" (which was the DAVIDIC Covenant, not the New Covenant; in this, the full preterists are wrong); it was HE who "caused the sacrifice and the gift to cease in the middle of the one Seven" (He did this by offering "one sacrifice for sin for ever" - Hebrews 10:12); and it was HE who "made them desolate until the consummation for the overspreading of their abominations" (Matthew 23:1-39, particularly verse 38)! Thus, the only part of the final Seven that was postponed was the latter half!

I'm not trying to do away with the mention of the antichrist in Dani'el 9:27; I'm trying to show you that he never WAS mentioned in Dani'el 9:26-7! It is all prophetic about the MESSIAH!

veteran · Mar 31, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran, and Happy Resurrection Day!

No, brother, that's not the same event. First of all, Dani'el 11 is SPECIFICALLY talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes because in that chapter we are seeing the whole history from the last few kings of the Medo-Persian Empire, beginning with the first year of Daryavesh (Darius) the Mede, uncle and father-in-law of Koresh (Cyrus) the Great, to the rulers of the Roman occupation of Isra'el, the emperor Caesar Augustus and the king Herod the Great, his sub regent. Herod is now known to have died in 4 B.C. These verses have NOTHING to do with some future "antichrist" figure.

Hello brother.

When our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet Discourse, how long had Antiochus IV been dead? Aproximately 190 years.

We've already been down this road before on what Dan.9:27 means friend, I don't care to go there again, but will stay on this point about Antiochus and Dan.11.

In our previous excursions I had noticed you have major difficulty with understanding Biblical types our Heavenly Father put in His Word. I believe I used terms like prophetic patterns for that idea in our previous discussions. That's what Antiochus IV served, as a prophetic pattern type for the future "abomination of desolation" event to occur in Jerusalem, sometime in our near future, just prior to Christ's second coming. And that's what the Dan.11 chapter is revealing, the events which Anitochus IV (170-165 B.C.) ALMOST fulfilled completely.

The way we can be 'certain' Antiochus IV served as a 'type' pattern for the Dan.11 prophecy is because of what I mentioned earlier, our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" event for a time future to His first coming, as written in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...

Matt 24:13-15
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(KJV)

We know per history the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill that, because a fire broke out inside the 2nd temple while the Roman army was trying to capture it (as per the Jewish historian Josephus - 100 A.D.). The requirement for that "abomination of desolation" event is a standing temple in Jerusalem, for that was the pattern for Antiochus IV also in 165-170 B.C.

Rex · Mar 31, 2013

veteran said:
We know per history the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill that, because a fire broke out inside the 2nd temple while the Roman army was trying to capture it (as per the Jewish historian Josephus - 100 A.D.). The requirement for that "abomination of desolation" event is a standing temple in Jerusalem, for that was the pattern for Antiochus IV also in 165-170 B.C.

I have a question for you,
Which is the greater abomination, the Jews "Pharisees" rejecting Jesus, the real Son of God and plotting to kill him or unbelieving Jews building a new temple and inviting in mr nasty the AC?

So mr prophesy which is the greater abomination?

JosyWales · Mar 31, 2013

I now understand that false Preterism is what is the cause of much of the negative feedback I am getting about my beliefs. I believe in NO FORM of Preterism, whether full or partial, and I have shown a straight forward method of proving it to not be so.

veteran said:
No Biblical evidence anywhere that the Archangel Michael will ever be born... in the flesh. In Gen.18 when "three men" appeared at Abraham's tent door, they appeared out of nowhere, and One of them was The LORD as shown there. The other two men were the two angels sent to Sodom and Gomorrah to bring Lot and his family out. Angels appeared on earth to God's people in several Biblical examples, and it does not show any of them being born through woman's womb to get here.

I have shown much biblical support that Michael WILL be born as a man, and will fulfill the prophecies of the Angel with the writers inkhorn in Ezekiel and the mighty and strong Angel of Revelation. Your example has no relation to this event. You mention that since several Angels appear in the bible (and are called men by the way since you forgot to mention that) that this somehow negates Micheal following the footsteps of Jesus by being born in the flesh. You do err.

veteran said:
I don't know who started that crazy line of reasoning that for an angel to manifest walking upon this earth they must be born in the flesh, but that idea is nowhere supported in God's Word.

First, I do not think it is any more crazy than thinking all these prophecies in both the OT and NT are already fulfilled. Preterism, either in full or part, to me is the ultimate of crazy, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Also since Jesus Christ Himself established this unusual precedent of being born on earth in the flesh, to say that Michael could not follow suit is blind, especially considering the biblical evidence to support the physical actions being done on the earth by these people who are called both Angels and men, which have not been fulfilled yet as they are written no matter what any try to say.

veteran said:
The Jehovah's Witness group believe that the Archangel Michael is our Lord Jesus, but that idea was instituted by those like Russel who began that religious movement. Michael is NOT our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is NOT an angel in any heavenly specie sense, since He created the angels. Christ Jesus was not created, which is why one of His Titles is "Immanuel", meaning 'God with us' (Matt.1:23).

If you think I am a Jehovah's Witness, you are greatly mistaken, for I am most decidedly not, and I hope you are not trying to say that I am advocating this line of reasoning that Jesus and Michael are the same person. I am not.

However, I do believe that Jesus was created by God because He said so in the Bible here:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

You may disagree with the KJV interpertation of this passage, but I think it is correct.

I am certain that by becoming Human, God elevated Jesus in status in some way, somewhat like a promotion of sorts. I am not sure what Jesus' status was before coming to earth, whether he as an Angel or something greater, but He was God when he left it after the Resurrection. The Earth is a God making machine and Jesus is the First Born. This has been done by design by God the Father Himself for the purpose of having friends on His own level that He can trust. You folks have no idea what this is all about I fear.

You may think that this is a radical belief, but I am not afraid to say it plainly. I also think that Michael is going to be the second to go through this process, although what he will become is yet to be seen.

veteran said:
Jesus Christ IS... The BRANCH which the OT prophets foretold of.

Isa 11:1-5
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins
(KJV)

I have shown that Jesus is NOT the Branch, but the Root of David, as He says so Himself and Michael is to be the Branch that is spoken of by these prophets.

veteran said:
JESUS CHRIST is the Object of both these Scriptures.

Rev 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself.
13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(KJV)

Since this is obviously Jesus, I agree with you. However, to make it seem like this is the Branch spoken of in Ezekiel and Zechariah is incorrect.

veteran said:
Brethren, there's a major warning to be had with what Josey has posted with applying the Archangel Michael into Scripture which only applies to our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a warning from Apostle Paul...

Col 2:18
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
(KJV)

To imply that the Archangel Michael and our Lord Jesus Christ are one and the same is to fall away from Christ into the falseness of worshipping angels. Worship our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ, not angels.

Vet seems to be under the mistaken impression that I am advocating that Michael is Jesus (an incorrect assumption by the JWs, of which I am not one) and/or that I am promoting the worship of him. This is not correct on either point.

I have also been pretty clear that Michael is going to be a follower of Jesus and is not to be worshiped as Him. In fact, he should be worshiped in no way, though some may do so when it becomes evident who he is (much as Nebuchadnezzar worshiped Daniel when he interpreted the dream) and I am sure he will always point out that Jesus is the Head, just as Jesus always pointed out that He followed the Father. By the way, if anyone here thinks that God the Father and Jesus are the exact same person, then we are in strong disagreement on that issue as well, since Jesus made such a point of making sure we understood that fact.

I do feel that there is much OT and NT scripture which I have shown to support my beliefs.

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran, and Happy Resurrection Day!

No, brother, that's not the same event. First of all, Dani'el 11 is SPECIFICALLY talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes because in that chapter we are seeing the whole history from the last few kings of the Medo-Persian Empire, beginning with the first year of Daryavesh (Darius) the Mede, uncle and father-in-law of Koresh (Cyrus) the Great, to the rulers of the Roman occupation of Isra'el, the emperor Caesar Augustus and the king Herod the Great, his sub regent. Herod is now known to have died in 4 B.C. These verses have NOTHING to do with some future "antichrist" figure.

Secondly, you're missing the point in making mention that "the prince that shall come" is found within the PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! As the object of the preposition, it does not contribute to the main thought of the sentence and is not itself part of either the subject or the predicate of the sentence. It is the prepositional phrase itself AS A UNIT that contributes as an adjective phrase to describe the subject of the sentence, the "people." It answers the question, "Which people?"

Question: Which people?
Answer: The people OF THE PRINCE (THAT SHALL COME).

The subordinate clause "that shall come" also is a modifier answering the question "Which prince?" Haven't you ever diagrammed sentences? You should try it sometime! You may learn a thing or two about our language.

As such, "the prince (that shall come)" also cannot be the antecedent of the pronouns in verse 27! And, as I've said several times before, that's true not only for the English translations but also for the Hebrew! The "prince that shall come" (Hebrew: "naagiyd habaa'") is the secondary noun in a noun construct state.

The "PEOPLE of the prince that shall come" were the Romans.
The "prince that shall come" was Titus!
However, the antecedent of the words "he" in verse 27 refers back to the "Messiah" of verse 26! It was HE who "strengthened the covenant" (which was the DAVIDIC Covenant, not the New Covenant; in this, the full preterists are wrong); it was HE who "caused the sacrifice and the gift to cease in the middle of the one Seven" (He did this by offering "one sacrifice for sin for ever" - Hebrews 10:12); and it was HE who "made them desolate until the consummation for the overspreading of their abominations" (Matthew 23:1-39, particularly verse 38)! Thus, the only part of the final Seven that was postponed was the latter half!

I'm not trying to do away with the mention of the antichrist in Dani'el 9:27; I'm trying to show you that he never WAS mentioned in Dani'el 9:26-7! It is all prophetic about the MESSIAH!

Since this is an erronious assumption by a Preterists, I dont feel any obligation to comment on it except to say that this is way off and I have to commend Vet on pointing out an obvious error in this thinking.

veteran said:
Hello brother.

When our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet Discourse, how long had Antiochus IV been dead? Aproximately 190 years.

We've already been down this road before on what Dan.9:27 means friend, I don't care to go there again, but will stay on this point about Antiochus and Dan.11.

In our previous excursions I had noticed you have major difficulty with understanding Biblical types our Heavenly Father put in His Word. I believe I used terms like prophetic patterns for that idea in our previous discussions. That's what Antiochus IV served, as a prophetic pattern type for the future "abomination of desolation" event to occur in Jerusalem, sometime in our near future, just prior to Christ's second coming. And that's what the Dan.11 chapter is revealing, the events which Anitochus IV (170-165 B.C.) ALMOST fulfilled completely.

The way we can be 'certain' Antiochus IV served as a 'type' pattern for the Dan.11 prophecy is because of what I mentioned earlier, our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" event for a time future to His first coming, as written in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...

Matt 24:13-15
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(KJV)

We know per history the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill that, because a fire broke out inside the 2nd temple while the Roman army was trying to capture it (as per the Jewish historian Josephus - 100 A.D.). The requirement for that "abomination of desolation" event is a standing temple in Jerusalem, for that was the pattern for Antiochus IV also in 165-170 B.C.

I do find it strange how truth is mixed so badly with fiction. Vet correctly identifies the use of patterns in the bible being used to be used as templates for future events. This is basis of my whole thinking if you have looked into what I have written. I simply embrace this thinking fully and show how well it works.

He also points out the obvious error of thinking that somehow the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled by that guy in the Maccadean era, since Jesus mentions it as a future event.

I am glad that I have seen the clear cut pattern of the future event spoken of by the OT prophets and Jesus and his deciple John in the NT. This event has not happened yet at all and I have shown why. I am sorry that the ease of its understanding along with the documentation that I have provided supporting it seems alien to you. My way not only fits but is so simple that even a child could understand it. Why then can you not? I know I am not addressing unlearned or unintelligent people here, quite the opposite, so I am sad that this is so hard for them to see. However, I believe that in time, when what I am showing here begins to manifest itself, some will see and understand. I hope it helps them.

Rex, I am not sure I see what you are trying to point out, but to me all abominations are abominatiions. Can one really ever be greater than another, or perhaps that is your point.

Lastly, Happy Easter to all. This is a special day and if not for Christ's Resurrection, all this discussion would be useless so I hope every single one of you has an excellent day.

Rex · Mar 31, 2013

JosyWales said:
Rex, I am not sure I see what you are trying to point out, but to me all abominations are abominatiions. Can one really ever be greater than another, or perhaps that is your point.

Lastly, Happy Easter to all. This is a special day and if not for Christ's Resurrection, all this discussion would be useless so I hope every single one of you has an excellent day.

Don't mind me I don't have a clue about anything your saying in this thread,
I'm simply returning the troll favor veteran keeps extending to me. He's not very good at answering questions anyway, he'd much rather bloviate, "Talk at length, esp. in an inflated or empty way".

Happy Easter

JosyWales · Mar 31, 2013

Heh, well keep up the good work

Retrobyter · Mar 31, 2013

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Hello brother.

When our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet Discourse, how long had Antiochus IV been dead? Aproximately 190 years.

We've already been down this road before on what Dan.9:27 means friend, I don't care to go there again, but will stay on this point about Antiochus and Dan.11.

In our previous excursions I had noticed you have major difficulty with understanding Biblical types our Heavenly Father put in His Word. I believe I used terms like prophetic patterns for that idea in our previous discussions. That's what Antiochus IV served, as a prophetic pattern type for the future "abomination of desolation" event to occur in Jerusalem, sometime in our near future, just prior to Christ's second coming. And that's what the Dan.11 chapter is revealing, the events which Anitochus IV (170-165 B.C.) ALMOST fulfilled completely.

The way we can be 'certain' Antiochus IV served as a 'type' pattern for the Dan.11 prophecy is because of what I mentioned earlier, our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" event for a time future to His first coming, as written in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...

Matt 24:13-15
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(KJV)

We know per history the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill that, because a fire broke out inside the 2nd temple while the Roman army was trying to capture it (as per the Jewish historian Josephus - 100 A.D.). The requirement for that "abomination of desolation" event is a standing temple in Jerusalem, for that was the pattern for Antiochus IV also in 165-170 B.C.

Okay, let's stick with Matthew 24:15 for now (and it's counterparts in the synoptic Gospels, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20). I'm going to back you up just a ways to get a running start into the three verses you quoted above and link them with the other two Gospels. I'm also going to change my coloring scheme temporarily. Similarly colored texts are equivalent texts:

Matthew 24:7-22
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Mark 13:8-20
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

Luke 21:10-24
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

The sections in bold-faced red are the sections in each of these synoptic Gospels that pertain to this "abomination of desolation." But, don't let the words become a LABEL or a by-word to you! This is an "abomination" resulting from the "desolation." Yeshua` had just left the household of Y'hudah "DESOLATE"; that IS the "DESOLATION" that produced the "abomination" - the disgusting and disheartening result of the destruction of the Temple!

That's a little different than how Dani'el 9 has it worded. There, it is the "abominations" that produce the "desolation!" These are the "abominations" or the disgusting and disheartening things that the Jews did to their Messiah that resulted in their Messiah leaving them "DESOLATE" until the end (Matt. 23:38)! Nevertheless, it is Dani'el 9:27 to which Yeshua` was alluding here in the Olivet Discourse. He was NOT addressing Dani'el 8, 11 or 12! Those references to Antiochus IV Epiphanes were certainly bad times, but it is Dani'el 9:27 that had to do with what Yeshua` was prophesying.

Don't make the unfortunate mistake of thinking that two passages are talking about the same thing when they have similar translations in the English, namely "abomination of desolation." No one can afford to make this mistake if they intend on understanding the prophecies.

JosyWales · Mar 31, 2013

Rex, just to give you a brief rundown on what I am trying to say here in this thread, I believe that no part of the prophesies of Daniel concerning the 2300 days of Daniel 8 or the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 have occured yet at all. I dont believe that 69 weeks have passed and we are waiting for 1 more week nor do I believe that all these prophesies have already been accomplished, which is what Preterism is.

I have made a chart showing that if you take the bible at face value and add the 70 weeks of Daniel to all the times listed in Revelation concerning the end times, you get exactly 2300 days, which means that the 70 weeks are not to be reinterpreted as 490 years, which is the basis of the "last week of Daniel" interpretations that are so common.

Retro believes that all the prophesies have past centuries ago (which is Full Preterism) and Vet seems to ascribe to the notion that I described above that the 70 weeks are really 490 years of which 483 happened back in the day and we have 1 week, which he thinks is 7 years, to go.

Trying to argue with either of them is not really my objective since they no longer even attempt to show any error in my work. Neither one can show anything wrong with what I have found, so they keep trying to simply state their own viewpoints without addressing what I am showing them.

If they want to believe that it is all over (Retro) or they want to believe that they only have 1 week to go, which is actually 7 years (Vet), then more power to them. However, I think they may simply be trying to cloud my simple explaination of how it works with untruth. Retro tries to twist words in the bible, hoping he can obscure the forest with the trees and Vet, while being more straightforward and having more right than Retro does, is just as diverted only at a different point. I find this to be a shame for both of them.

Both of these folks are the embodyment of full and partial Preterism and they are both wrong. They do make a good backdrop against the simplicity of what I show in my chart though, so I welcome their input.

Rex · Mar 31, 2013

Thank you for your outline, I am familiar with both veterans and retros position, now your would seem to exclude the first coming of the the Messiah.
There is much more to it than simply finding similar or patterns as veteran call it. The entire bible is a pattern over laid and repeated both. That doesn't necessarily confirm a proper understanding. Because of the repeated pattern over lays can be confused as to their original meaning. Your work applying the number of days to the days in Rev is a case example. But like I said 9:25 is telling Israel when to expect the Messiah, not his second coming which we were told no one knows but the Father.

To add to the confusion several dates were decreed for the rebuilding of the temple one falls just before the cross as Jesus is entering Jerusalem and one coincides with his baptism. You must convert days to years "another principle" or you never discover when the Messiah will come. The coming of the Messiah was of course announced by John the baptist. Not at His entry into Jerusalem

I'm not meaning to be disrespectful, your number of days has been observed but I have not seen anyone completely or seamlessly tie John and Daniel together, one thing is clear their is a connection between Rev and Daniel. Your preaching to the choir I have spent a great deal of time sorting threw all the labels preterism historicism and futurism, believe me when I tell you none of these in and of themselves holds the complete truth. Labels are a huge disservice to the truth. The same as church labels

Many men have tried to hammer out the secrets of the Prophets yet to be fulfilled, they will not be fully known until the same Spirit that spoke them threw the Prophets reveals them. I simply position myself where I have been lead, I believe that to be the fisher in the Rock of Ages where it will cleft when the time comes.
I know I'm on solid ground the rock has cleft for me before, I believe it will again all in the Lords perfect timing.

Retrobyter · Mar 31, 2013

Shalom again, veteran.

veteran said:
...
In our previous excursions I had noticed you have major difficulty with understanding Biblical types our Heavenly Father put in His Word. I believe I used terms like prophetic patterns for that idea in our previous discussions. That's what Antiochus IV served, as a prophetic pattern type for the future "abomination of desolation" event to occur in Jerusalem, sometime in our near future, just prior to Christ's second coming. And that's what the Dan.11 chapter is revealing, the events which Anitochus IV (170-165 B.C.) ALMOST fulfilled completely.

The way we can be 'certain' Antiochus IV served as a 'type' pattern for the Dan.11 prophecy is because of what I mentioned earlier, our Lord Jesus pointed to the "abomination of desolation" event for a time future to His first coming, as written in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...

Matt 24:13-15
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(KJV)

We know per history the Romans in 70 A.D. did not fulfill that, because a fire broke out inside the 2nd temple while the Roman army was trying to capture it (as per the Jewish historian Josephus - 100 A.D.). The requirement for that "abomination of desolation" event is a standing temple in Jerusalem, for that was the pattern for Antiochus IV also in 165-170 B.C.

Just a post script about the rest of what you wrote:

It's not that I "have major difficulty with understanding Biblical types our Heavenly Father put in His Word." First, you are ASSUMING that there ARE "Biblical types" and, second, that "our Heavenly Father put (them) in His Word!" I don't have "major difficulty with understanding" them; I REJECT those assumptions COMPLETELY! As I've said before (and I guess it went completely over your head), a prophecy is only fulfilled ONCE! If it cannot be shown when a prophecy was/is fulfilled, then how is one to be able to judge a prophet? Yet, the Scriptures DID say that the children of Isra'el could judge a prophet. Furthermore, such an unknowable prophecy is no more assertive than those of Jeanne Dixon or Nostradamus!

The prophecies CANNOT be subjective, subject to the will of the hearer of the prophecy! When God gave a prophecy, it was NOT with an "uncertain voice!" It was DEFINITE and OBJECTIVE and CRYSTAL CLEAR! It was something you could count on being fulfilled EXACTLY as it was given to the prophet to declare!

The prophecies of Jeanne Dixon or those of Nostradamus were vague and subjective; people could study them for years and determine that the prophecy could be fulfilled in such-and-such a historical event. It could be looked at in a certain way and one could imagine that the prophecy was "sort-of" fulfilled in this way or in that event.

Not so with God's prophecies! God's prophets - if they were indeed proven to be prophets of God - were to be 100% correct in all of their near prophecies that came true in their lifetime! God would not allow one word spoken by one of His prophets to "fall to the ground." Thus, the children of Isra'el COULD test them! If ANY prophecy did NOT come true, they were to be considered a FALSE (or LYING) prophet, taken outside of the city, and STONED TO DEATH! Why? Because they spoke on God's behalf PRESUMPTUOUSLY!

I'm telling you that Dani'el 8 and 11 (and consequently also 12) speak about the desecration of the Temple when it mentions the "abomination of desolation" that occurred when Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacrificed a pig upon the altar of God and erected an idol of Zeus in the Temple! Those prophecies are "over and done with!" And, the latter verses of chapter 11 refer not to Antiochus or to some future Antichrist but refer instead to Caesar Augustus and/or Herod the Great! Only the later portions of chapter 12 and chapter 9's Sevens extend beyond the Messiah's first Advent!

There's not only such a thing as "typology" but there is also a thing as "typolatry" - the "WORSHIP of the types!" And, it is "anathema" to speak out against some people's types! A good example is the type of LEAVEN. Some people are SO convinced that "leaven is ALWAYS a type of sin," that they can't understand the simple truth of Matthew 13:33:

Matthew 13:33
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV

In this verse, Yeshua` CLEARLY says that the Kingdom from the sky is "LIKE UNTO LEAVEN!" He is equating the "Kingdom from the sky" with "leaven!" Therefore, leaven is NOT a "type of sin" in this case! Unless, of course, one believes that the "Kingdom from the sky" is "like unto SIN!" And, that's COMPLETELY ridiculous!

No, Yeshua` was talking about the future Kingdom's INFLUENCE on the world: As the Kingdom grows from that of a small country in the middle of the Middle East until it fills the entire earth, its influence will likewise grow. If another kingdom wants to do well financially or otherwise, it would be best to listen to Isra'el's King, a "wiser than Solomon!" The "three measures of meal" doesn't mean anything more than just a huge amount of dough, more than one person could carry!

Antiochus was not just some antetype of the "Antichrist"; he was THE fulfillment of the prophecies of those few verses in chapters 8 and 11!

Again, for the record, A PROPHECY IS ONLY FULFILLED ONCE!

JosyWales · Mar 31, 2013

Rex said:
Thank you for your outline, I am familiar with both veterans and retros position, now your would seem to exclude the first coming of the the Messiah.

You are correct if you see that I do not believe that Daniel's reference to Messiah is to Jesus. I spent some time addressing this issue and think it is in reference to Michael during the Apocalypse, since all the rest of it is concerning this as well, which means I do not have to reinterprete the 70 weeks as years, which is the exact point of my chart.

Rex said:
There is much more to it than simply finding similar or patterns as veteran call it. The entire bible is a pattern over laid and repeated both. That doesn't necessarily confirm a proper understanding. Because of the repeated pattern over lays can be confused as to their original meaning. Your work applying the number of days to the days in Rev is a case example. But like I said 9:25 is telling Israel when to expect the Messiah, not his second coming which we were told no one knows but the Father.

What you say about the patterns within the bible is correct and I am not showing many that I have seen, except in this case to make my position on this matter clear. It truely does get very deep, but I am doing my best to simplify it so I can be understood.

Again I emphesize that Daniel 9:27 referance to Messiah is not Chirst. The word used here is used many other places in the Old Testament and is meant to mean "Anointed One" and only in Daniel is it called "Messiah". It is even used once to describe Cyrus, so thinking this is a direct referance to Christ is an assumption that I do not support, considering what I have found showing that no part of these events has happened yet.

Rex said:
To add to the confusion several dates were decreed for the rebuilding of the temple one falls just before the cross as Jesus is entering Jerusalem and one coincides with his baptism. You must convert days to years "another principle" or you never discover when the Messiah will come. The coming of the Messiah was of course announced by John the baptist. Not at His entry into Jerusalem

I am not quite sure what you are meaning here. I say again, if you feel you have to convert days to years, then my chart shows why this is not correct.

Rex said:
I'm not meaning to be disrespectful, your number of days has been observed but I have not seen anyone completely or seamlessly tie John and Daniel together, one thing is clear their is a connection between Rev and Daniel. Your preaching to the choir I have spent a great deal of time sorting threw all the labels preterism historicism and futurism, believe me when I tell you none of these in and of themselves holds the complete truth. Labels are a huge disservice to the truth. The same as church labels

I have tried to show direct similarities between both books, like the 3 1/2 times mentioned in both Daniel and Revelation in what seem to be the same event as well as others. I am very convenced that both Daniel and Revelation are speaking of the same time period.

Rex said:
Many men have tried to hammer out the secrets of the Prophets yet to be fulfilled, they will not be fully known until the same Spirit that spoke them threw the Prophets reveals them. I simply position myself where I have been lead, I believe that to be the fisher in the Rock of Ages where it will cleft when the time comes.
I know I'm on solid ground the rock has cleft for me before, I believe it will again all in the Lords perfect timing.

Very true and the Lord be with you.

I do wish Retro and Vet would see what I am trying to show them, but I guess it all works out. Retros trying to force Antiochus into the prophecy of Daniel is so iffy, I am suprised that he holds to it, but I guess a person does what they have to do. I mean after all, Jesus says directly that the Abomination mentioned by Daniel had not been fulfilled by his time. This is so straight forward that it defies logic how you can think otherwise, no matter how you turn it. However, I did see a mathmatician prove a straight line was curved once. He did it by using formulas that no one could understand, and when I drew him a picture that proved that he was wrong, he just dismissed it. Seems the same is happening here.

Retrobyter · Mar 31, 2013

SHALOM, JOSYWALES!!!

JosyWales said:
Rex, just to give you a brief rundown on what I am trying to say here in this thread, I believe that no part of the prophesies of Daniel concerning the 2300 days of Daniel 8 or the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 have occured yet at all. I dont believe that 69 weeks have passed and we are waiting for 1 more week nor do I believe that all these prophesies have already been accomplished, which is what Preterism is.

I have made a chart showing that if you take the bible at face value and add the 70 weeks of Daniel to all the times listed in Revelation concerning the end times, you get exactly 2300 days, which means that the 70 weeks are not to be reinterpreted as 490 years, which is the basis of the "last week of Daniel" interpretations that are so common.

Retro believes that all the prophesies have past centuries ago (which is Full Preterism) and Vet seems to ascribe to the notion that I described above that the 70 weeks are really 490 years of which 483 happened back in the day and we have 1 week, which he thinks is 7 years, to go.

Trying to argue with either of them is not really my objective since they no longer even attempt to show any error in my work. Neither one can show anything wrong with what I have found, so they keep trying to simply state their own viewpoints without addressing what I am showing them.

If they want to believe that it is all over (Retro) or they want to believe that they only have 1 week to go, which is actually 7 years (Vet), then more power to them. However, I think they may simply be trying to cloud my simple explaination of how it works with untruth. Retro tries to twist words in the bible, hoping he can obscure the forest with the trees and Vet, while being more straightforward and having more right than Retro does, is just as diverted only at a different point. I find this to be a shame for both of them.

Both of these folks are the embodyment of full and partial Preterism and they are both wrong. They do make a good backdrop against the simplicity of what I show in my chart though, so I welcome their input.

SHAME ON YOU!!! Quit misrepresenting me! I am NOT a full preterist! I do NOT believe that it is "all over!" I only believe that the first 69 and a HALF of the seventy Sevens of Dani'el 9 are past! I still believe that the last half of the seventieth Seven is yet to be fulfilled, a total of 3.5 years to go! Veteran believes that only the last Seven is still in the future.

Furthermore, between veteran and myself, I am the partial preterist and he is a futurist!

And, I do NOT try "to twist words in the Bible, hoping (I) can obscure the forest with the trees!" I'm trying to HELP you and others to understand what is actually written in these passages instead of what is often taken for granted in the various English translations! English translations are NOT inspired by God; the original manuscripts written in the original languages were inspired by God! Thus, it is IMPORTANT for us to make sure we are understanding a passage of Scripture correctly and not some lame translation that doesn't do the original manuscripts justice!

If you can't say it correctly, don't say anything at all!

Rex · Apr 1, 2013

JosyWales said:
Very true and the Lord be with you.

I do wish Retro and Vet would see what I am trying to show them, but I guess it all works out. Retros trying to force Antiochus into the prophecy of Daniel is so iffy, I am suprised that he holds to it, but I guess a person does what they have to do.

The truth be known between veteran and retro I walk with retro, and his understanding of some very important verses I agree completely.
I don't trust veteran to lead me to the bathroom

And may the Lord richly bless you Josy

JosyWales · Apr 1, 2013

Retrobyter said:
SHALOM, JOSYWALES!!!

SHAME ON YOU!!! Quit misrepresenting me! I am NOT a full preterist! I do NOT believe that it is "all over!" I only believe that the first 69 and a HALF of the seventy Sevens of Dani'el 9 are past! I still believe that the last half of the seventieth Seven is yet to be fulfilled, a total of 3.5 years to go! Veteran believes that only the last Seven is still in the future.

Furthermore, between veteran and myself, I am the partial preterist and he is a futurist!

If I have misstated your position then I am glad you are clerifying it for me. Both you and Vet seem to be saying that much of these events have already past from what I see, so if I have misunderstood, then I apologize but still feel it was a normal error based on what I have seen you write.

Retrobyter said:
And, I do NOT try "to twist words in the Bible, hoping (I) can obscure the forest with the trees!" I'm trying to HELP you and others to understand what is actually written in these passages instead of what is often taken for granted in the various English translations! English translations are NOT inspired by God; the original manuscripts written in the original languages were inspired by God! Thus, it is IMPORTANT for us to make sure we are understanding a passage of Scripture correctly and not some lame translation that doesn't do the original manuscripts justice!

If you can't say it correctly, don't say anything at all!

Retro, you have tried to say that the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel spoke of and is repeated by Christ and attributed to Daniel by Him is not the same event, then try to use what seems to me to be a manipulation of scripture to support such a position.

Sorry, I will not follow your request and be quiet. You are misled and I have to speak.

You do have a good knowledge of the Bible and it is a shame to see you going in this direction with it. What I have shown is clear cut and easy to understand, so I know you can see it.

Rex said:
The truth be known between veteran and retro I walk with retro, and his understanding of some very important verses I agree completely.
I don't trust veteran to lead me to the bathroom

Its hard to say about that. Retro certainly is off base and tends to attack me more and with more venom (as seen above), but perhaps taking two guys who are both very wrong and saying one is worse than another is incorrect.

Rex said:
And may the Lord richly bless you Josy

And you also.

I have been thinking about how Rex has approached me and it has made me think that perhaps I may have been too harsh in some of my responses. I have no wish to put down other peoples opinions, only to promote what I believe to be true.

I will try to do better.

Retrobyter · Apr 1, 2013

Shalom, JosyWales.

JosyWales said:
If I have misstated your position then I am glad you are clerifying it for me. Both you and Vet seem to be saying that much of these events have already past from what I see, so if I have misunderstood, then I apologize but still feel it was a normal error based on what I have seen you write.

Retro, you have tried to say that the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel spoke of and is repeated by Christ and attributed to Daniel by Him is not the same event, then try to use what seems to me to be a manipulation of scripture to support such a position.

Sorry, I will not follow your request and be quiet. You are misled and I have to speak.

You do have a good knowledge of the Bible and it is a shame to see you going in this direction with it. What I have shown is clear cut and easy to understand, so I know you can see it.

Its hard to say about that. Retro certainly is off base and tends to attack me more and with more venom (as seen above), but perhaps taking two guys who are both very wrong and saying one is worse than another is incorrect.

And you also.

I have been thinking about how Rex has approached me and it has made me think that perhaps I may have been too harsh in some of my responses. I have no wish to put down other peoples opinions, only to promote what I believe to be true.

I will try to do better.

This is an EXCELLENT response to the issues! Thank you! I know that God will bless you for the efforts in not putting down other people's opinions. We all have some good ideas; we all also have some pretty lousy ones, but the worst ones are the ones for which we have "blind spots."

If you've ever taken those little tests where you close one eye and look at two objects on a clean piece of paper and back away from the paper while focusing on one of those objects until you can no longer see the other, you will notice that our eyes do NOT leave a hole in what we see. We mentally fill in the hole of our blind spot with the surrounding image. Thus, when the second object disappears from our peripheral vision, we just "see" (or "perceive") the blank paper in its place! This is how our perceptions of prophecy can also be deceived.

There's a little chestnut that I learned back in my "Amway days" that seems appropriate: "You don't know that you don't know what you don't know." This is why we go to school and to college. We might have the makings of being a great architect, but if you've never been exposed to the occupation of architect, how will you ever find out?

For a short time, I taught math and science in high school. I was ALWAYS being asked, "Why do I have to learn this stuff?" Being a Christian school, I was free to give the appropriate answer:

"Who am I? GOD?! How do I know why you have to learn this stuff? God will direct you to your future occupation, and hopefully it will be one you are both good at and enjoy, but it's not my job to know why you have to learn this stuff; it's my job to teach you this stuff so that your potential to be all that God wants you to be can happen! It's YOUR job to learn this stuff so that you have have the highest potential to do whatever it is that God wants you to do, and ONLY GOD knows what you will do with what you learn! If you don't like math, TAKE IT UP WITH HIM!"

And, in truth, all we can do as teachers is EXPOSE others to the knowledge that God has allowed us to acquire and hopefully He can take it and mold our students into MORE than we could hope for! As Sir Isaac Newton said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants!" Knowledge should build on the learning and experimentation of others.

Anyway, good post!

JosyWales · Apr 1, 2013

Thanks Retro, I dont think we will ever see eye to eye on this stuff but that doesn't mean that we have to do it in a bad way.

As I said before, I will try to do better.

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