watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen

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guysmith

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I am a post-trib ressurectionist. This thread is an attempt to discuss the next passage with those who have a similar view. Please this is not a rapture debate.

Luke 21:36
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

This passage does not and has not applied to any believer in the past and can only apply to those who have the potential to be alive at His advent. If we are in the end times (and I believe we are) why do you think Christ has provided us these instructions?
 

michaelvpardo

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guysmith said:
I am a post-trib ressurectionist. This thread is an attempt to discuss the next passage with those who have a similar view. Please this is not a rapture debate.

Luke 21:36
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

This passage does not and has not applied to any believer in the past and can only apply to those who have the potential to be alive at His advent. If we are in the end times (and I believe we are) why do you think Christ has provided us these instructions?
When Job suffered all those evil things at the hands of Satan, His wife gave him the advice "to curse God and die," but this isn't the response of the righteous. Those who know God and understand His character may ask why evil things are allowed to happen to them, but refuse to attribute evil to God. This however is not typical of men in general. A more typical response to evil circumstance is to blame God and offer Him hatred rather than love. The book of the revelation of Jesus Christ tells us that while under the judgments, men will still not repent of their evil deeds. Rather than turn to God for mercy and forgiveness, they harden their hearts against God even in the face of terrors and distress. This is a tempting of all mankind to blaspheme their Creator. Isaiah wrote this:
21 They will pass through it hard-pressed and hungry; and it shall happen, when they are hungry, that they will be enraged and curse their king and their God, and look upward. 22 Then they will look to the earth, and see trouble and darkness, gloom of anguish; and they will be driven into darkness. Isaiah 8:20-22

This passage is not about the righteous, but about those who reject the word of God. Now, I think the danger that the Lord was warning us about is not to be caught up in carnality, living as the world lives. Since even the redeemed remain in a battle that rages between our own carnal nature and our renewed spiritual nature, surrendering our will to our carnality endangers our lives.

45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:45-47

Since the concept of purgatory is fanciful, and since the redeemed will not be cast into hell, but have passed out of (eternal) judgment, there remains a time when the unfaithful will suffer the consequence of unrepentant sin in the midst of a world experiencing wrath. The purpose of such suffering is referred to as purging, and suffered not in a mythical purgatory, but in this life. Why are we to be grateful when we suffer various trials? The Lord uses them to make us complete. Our suffering of such things is inversely proportional to our willingness to do His word.
6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7

These things are easily understood, but not easily received. Part of the expression of God's grace to us is to not allow us to see the extent of our own sinfulness at one time. This would tend to be crushing and drive us into despair. God's love for us is in spite of our nature and His goal for us is to be renewed in the image of His Son. This could be called sanctifying grace, but discipline is never a pleasant experience, so wisdom demands our faithfulness. We may also suffer because of sin in the world, but such suffering is also a common experience of our Lord and brings us into a communion with Him that we can't know without it. I don't covet such experience, however I need to remain grateful for it to the extent that it conforms me to the image of the One who died for me. I'll never understand the escapist doctrines as they fly in the face of God's declared will for us.
I hope that this is helpful, but I haven't much more to offer the discussion. Perhaps some may possess more wisdom and insight into these instructions and I pray that they do.
 

tgwprophet

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Tribulation is a tremendously horrible time for inhabitors of the Earth. Christians and Jews will be the focus for extinction. plagues will fall on the just and the un-just alike so this means whaever Satan can afflict Christians and Jews with will be compounded by the different wraths coming from God. For God to protect Jews and Christains from wraths God sends would mean God could just as validly protect Christians and Jews from anything Satan could do. This would in turn mean Tribulation is useless. People from all beliefs would alter their belief for survival, not becasue they believed. God would be known to all - free will would end. This test of "life" would not be valid. With this said... Would God want his people to go through the perils of Tribulation? Of course not, in fact, God would rahter no one to go through the perils of Tribulations, but the intregrity of Free Will must be maintained. And so God wishes we could escape and be with Jesus - protected from all wrath about to be-fall this planet.

Does anyone here think that God is not powerful enought to divide the people wh want God and Jesus from those who do no, in a moment with no judgement needed, casting the tares into the eternal fires? God knows us better than we know ourselves, so certainly this is not much of a task, so for whom is this test on Earth? This test is for us! When judgement transpires this time on earth is for OUR knowledge that we go where we belong... God already knows.
 

afaithfulone4u

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terry said:
Tribulation is a tremendously horrible time for inhabitors of the Earth. Christians and Jews will be the focus for extinction. plagues will fall on the just and the un-just alike so this means whaever Satan can afflict Christians and Jews with will be compounded by the different wraths coming from God. For God to protect Jews and Christains from wraths God sends would mean God could just as validly protect Christians and Jews from anything Satan could do. This would in turn mean Tribulation is useless. People from all beliefs would alter their belief for survival, not becasue they believed. God would be known to all - free will would end. This test of "life" would not be valid. With this said... Would God want his people to go through the perils of Tribulation? Of course not, in fact, God would rahter no one to go through the perils of Tribulations, but the intregrity of Free Will must be maintained. And so God wishes we could escape and be with Jesus - protected from all wrath about to be-fall this planet.

Does anyone here think that God is not powerful enought to divide the people wh want God and Jesus from those who do no, in a moment with no judgement needed, casting the tares into the eternal fires? God knows us better than we know ourselves, so certainly this is not much of a task, so for whom is this test on Earth? This test is for us! When judgement transpires this time on earth is for OUR knowledge that we go where we belong... God already knows.
The KJV says accounted WORTHY to escape speaking to Christians:
Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
KJV

Rev. 3:11
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV

Not all believer's will be found worthy to be caught up, as we heard of those who say: Lord, Lord, so they knew of Jesus and believed he was the Son of God, but they were not ready for they were still workers of iniquity, being a hearer of the Word but not doers which only by the Holy Spirit can we call the Word Lord to live by. Then the 10 virgins, 5 wise(Filled with the Holy Spirit taught by God)
And 5 foolish virgins that did not have enough oil because they only put their trust in another man reading the Bible for them and bought their books. Nothing wrong with feeding from other members of the body, but just as the Eunuch did not receive the Holy Spirit, he was just happy with salvation and looked to man only to tell him what the Word says.

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive (SPIRIT FILLED)and remain (still above ground) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Rev 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child (Body of Christ,children of God, Christ being Male), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was
caught up unto God, and to his throne.
KJV
Rev 12:8-12
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them (Caught up Ones). Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV
Blessings
 

guysmith

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terry,

I agree with your thoughts on who the Trib period is for. I also agree with your statement: Does anyone here think that God is not powerful enought to divide the people wh want God and Jesus from those who do no, in a moment with no judgement needed,

I believe that God is going to supernaturally protect a group of believers from the AC's Tribulation (I'm not talking about the rapture). The chapter concerning the two witnesses that will be protected for the 1260 days of the GT is a great example and is just one of many more.

The only question that remains is: Do you pray that you would be found worthy to escape all these things, or have you just resigned yourself to the trials of the coming Tribulation?


Michael,

You state: I'll never understand the escapist doctrines as they fly in the face of God's declared will for us.

My response: Was not Noah an escapist and was he going against God's will in building the ark?
 

John_8:32

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terry,

I agree with your thoughts on who the Trib period is for. I also agree with your statement: Does anyone here think that God is not powerful enought to divide the people wh want God and Jesus from those who do no, in a moment with no judgement needed,

I believe that God is going to supernaturally protect a group of believers from the AC's Tribulation (I'm not talking about the rapture). The chapter concerning the two witnesses that will be protected for the 1260 days of the GT is a great example and is just one of many more.

The only question that remains is: Do you pray that you would be found worthy to escape all these things, or have you just resigned yourself to the trials of the coming Tribulation?


Michael,

You state: I'll never understand the escapist doctrines as they fly in the face of God's declared will for us.

My response: Was not Noah an escapist and was he going against God's will in building the ark?
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The word here for wilderness is...

G2048
ἔρημος
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

This could hardly be referring to a "rapture" to heaven. This is a physical removal of the church to a place of safety for 3-1/2 years. As far as "accounted worthy"...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Some are taken to a place of safety, some are not...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Some are...

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Some are not...

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
 

michaelvpardo

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guysmith said:
terry,

I agree with your thoughts on who the Trib period is for. I also agree with your statement: Does anyone here think that God is not powerful enought to divide the people wh want God and Jesus from those who do no, in a moment with no judgement needed,

I believe that God is going to supernaturally protect a group of believers from the AC's Tribulation (I'm not talking about the rapture). The chapter concerning the two witnesses that will be protected for the 1260 days of the GT is a great example and is just one of many more.

The only question that remains is: Do you pray that you would be found worthy to escape all these things, or have you just resigned yourself to the trials of the coming Tribulation?


Michael,

You state: I'll never understand the escapist doctrines as they fly in the face of God's declared will for us.

My response: Was not Noah an escapist and was he going against God's will in building the ark?
No. The Lord told Noah that judgment was coming and then gave Noah instructions first to build the ark, then to provision the ark, and finally to enter the ark. There is not one single comment that suggests that Noah desired to survive the flood (although self preservation is part of our nature), but rather, Noah believed God and obeyed His word. We are told that one of righteous Noah's first acts after the flood was to plant a vineyard, make some wine, and get drunk. We aren't told the reason for this, but it may be that Noah sought to escape the sorrow of his heart over the destruction wrought by the flood. Would you be happy that those you were preaching the gospel to, rejected it and were judged? Noah had extended family that perished in the flood. I don't imagine that he was too happy with that either. I believe that having his nakedness uncovered, is a statement about his sin being revealed as well as his unclothed body, but I could certainly be wrong about that.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Hi Guy,

Part of understanding God's word is to know to whom Jesus was speaking.

Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Jesus was speaking to those that had gathered around him, and his disciples. He tells them that the temple in Jerusalem will be totally destroyed. They ask him "when shall this happen?".

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus gave the clearest explanation when he said "when ye (those people standing there with him) see Jerusalem compassed with armies" and then he said their generation "would not pass away, till all be fulfilled"

We are not the generation to see these things, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. That was less than 40 years after the crucifixion, and still in their generation.

Why is it so hard for people to read the bible for what it says? The above is not new, many bible scholars in the past have written the same. One of those wrote a book on Hermeneutics, which is on how to correctly intrepret the bible. The Apostles tells us to rightly divide the word of truth that we might show ourselves to be approved unto God. 2 Tim 2:15

It also says:

Rom 3:4 yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.