Desolating Abomination

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 18, 2013

daq ... you just dont get it .... you come here thinking we dont know anything ??

You grab scriptures from all over the place and then try to glue them together in some kind of bizarre patchwork .

Using your patchwork style of theology a person can make the bible say anything.

Judas went away and hanged himself.
Go yee and do likewise

..........................................

How about you buy yourself a good book on systematic theology and try to learn from it.

.

daq · Feb 18, 2013

terry said:
Daq... wrote: " Since neither of you have anything to offer concerning the topic I suppose I will attempt to continue. If you both want to put me on ignore then please do so and then we shall see if either of you are at least capable of keeping your word. "

Daq - I am trying to get to a level we can converse. but i still need you to answer those 4 questions...

The theme is simple... and so answer these 4 questions - i made them easy.... yes/no.... yes- but=no no, but =yes
1 - Are you dening me as a Witness and Prophet?
2 - Are you claiming me or my heart is evl?
3 - Do you think you have the right to tell me what is in my heart or mind?
4 - Say for a minute I am who I claim to be... with that I have a gift... that gift is.. anyone who accepts a prophet as a prophet receives a prophet's reward. If I do not allow others to know I am a prophet they cannot accept me and so - receives no prophet's reward. If they are told and accepts me - then they receive the same reward I receive. This does not elevate me, but rather those who accepts and does NOT elevate me in any way. For denying me does not disqualify nor hinder my position at all. So... do you really think attacking me is a good idea?

Answer my questions and I will do the same for you.

If you have aprehensions due to the answers you would give as they may effect you adversely, please indersrtand I am not going to hold negavie responses ro these wuestions against you, i will simply consider that is what is in your heart - at this time...meaning it can be changed if proven wrong and without demerits. The insight and path to truth is the goal I wish us to achieve.

There they are again.... This is not to attack you but rather to give me a firm understanding of what yyou are tring to claim of me.
You copied them then ignored them completely. I do not want to put you on ignore. Exactly what ":word" of mine are you speaking? I retracted many of the attacks I posted in anger... But think of it this way please... When i retract an anger post I am excersizing humility.... a muscle I wish to make stronger than the muscle of anger or denial. The retraction of anger (if I am wrong and even if I am right ) is an act of being humble. Do not hold the act of foegiving against me. Please... post an answer to the 4 questions alone and without obscurity.

If you feel you cannot do that...please tell me why that I maay revise them. I am trying to give you every benefit of obtaining cohesion in our conversing. You need not attempt to bombard me with Scripture - I assure you I have a Bible also. Use your words... Arnie and I both have been waiting for you to express yourself in your won words. Is that such a difficult task?

Unfortunately, if you bombard me again with scripture and iginore this post I will have no choice but to put you in ignore. My consideration is that ignoring me is your way of Denying a Prophet of God, and so I will not allow you to do it again and my way to stop it is to ignore you so I do not see it again. In that way it is in your best interest for me to do.

IMO you do not even understand what it means to be "attacked" if you think I have attacked you. It is not difficult at this point to believe that the only things you desire to know about are the opinions of others concerning yourself. However, I have not been offering my own opinions about you but rather attempted to explain, (multiple times with Scripture) that you, like all of us, reveal what is in your heart by what things you speak or say. That is just the way it is and I did not make it that way. Likewise we are warned that we shall all be judged by our words; even every idle word shall we give an account for. In the same manner now you reveal what is in your heart by the fact that you continue to insist that I place my focus upon *you* so as to answer your critical questions all about *you* and this again reveals your own true focus: your own self, and your own reputation-status among your peers.

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

When your "scapegoat" is first sent away into the desert-wilderness he goes through the dry-arid places seeking rest; but at some point he returns with seven other spirits more wicked than himself and this is the warning given to every disciple from the passage above. Can it be that you were not aware of this though you claim to be a prophet? And if this unclean spirit of the world, ("which now works within the children of disobedience") has never been cast out of you to begin with then you are not even a member of the heavenly family tree. So which is it? In other words this passage is written ONLY to believers and disciples of Messiah because those of "the spirit of the world" never had the unclean spirit of the world cast out of them to begin with. And if this unclean spirit returns to his "former house", (which is YOU) and if he returns with seven other spirits more wicked than himself: then would that not make him "the eighth and of the seven"? And if you must know only what you want to hear about yourself then perhaps you might go check in the mirror of Torah and see how far along you might be in your walk with Messiah?

Perhaps the five did fall, and you are, and the other is not yet come? :unsure:

Revelation 17:10-11 KJV
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Or perhaps your own "son of perdition" iskariotes-sicarii-scapegoat has already returned and you simply are not aware of the fact because you were watching for all the wrong signs according to the flesh? I already know that you and your counterparts will not accept the above, neither believe anything else which follows below, but I post it for anyone else who might be interested; for although it certainly is not the only representation of this typology in Scripture it is the first:

The seven mountains are the seven "heathen nations" with their doctrines, (Deuteronomy 7:1).
The seven mountains are also seven kings and with the seventh come the eight:

Genesis 14:1-2 KJV
1. And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
2. That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

The king over the two kings of Sodom and Gomorrah was little Bela-Bel.
Little king Bela-Bel is the one who fell into a bitumen-slime pit in the vale of Siddim.

When little king Bela-Bel goes into the pit the first five kings are fallen:

1) Bera`-Benra` - "Son of evil" - King of Sodom
2) Birsha - "Wickedness" - King of Gomorrah
3) Shinab - "Turning father" - King of 'Admah-'Adamah (earth-soil)
4) Shemeber - "Illustrious flyer" - King of Tsebiyiym (Gazelles)
5) King Bela-Bel - "Gulp of destruction" (he is tso`ar - he is little)

The first five little kings fall to the kings of the East and Tidal king of Nations:

6) The "one is" concerns every man himself and is personified in the man Lot.
7) Little Bela-Bel returns with seven others more wicked than himself, (Luke 11:24-26).

Little king Bela-Bel ascends back out from the bitumen abussos-pit of Siddim.
Lot then returns to dwell in Sodom until the latter appointed time of its destruction.
Bela-Bel strengthens in a small people making a league with the seven previous kings:

1) Bera`-Benra` - "Son of evil" - King of Sodom
2) Birsha - "Wickedness" - King of Gomorrah
3) Shinab - "Turning father" - King of 'Admah-'Adamah (earth-soil)
4) Shemeber - "Illustrious flyer" - King of Tsebiyiym (Gazelles)
5) Amraphel - King of Shinar - Babylon
6) Arioch-Chedorlaomer - Kings of Ellacar and Elam - Media-Persia
7) Tidal - King of Goyim-Nations - Yavan
8) King Bela-Bel - False Prophet: "Two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon".

But here is the good news; the evil mountains are the devils in the doctrine of Yeshua. And if one is willing to look honestly into the mirror at himself, and if he does not like what he sees, then the same having the patient endurance and faith of the saints can say to the mountain or the fig; "Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea!" And it shall be done.

tgwprophet · Feb 18, 2013

you are wrong and from here on out ignored.

daq · Feb 18, 2013

terry said:
you are wrong and from here on out ignored.

Yes, the devils are "mountains" in the doctrine of the Master:

Matthew 17:18-21 KJV
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

And the fig is the very same analogy:

Matthew 21:20-21 KJV
20. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21. Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Revelation 8:8 KJV
8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

However, because of unbelief, one of you shall die like Aaron in mount Hor of Edom; the other claiming to be like Moses shall die in mount Nebo of Moab, (Matthew 24:16). And the one who overcomes shall enter into the Land by the hand of Yeshua, son of Perpetuity, for the second death hath no power over that one.

Retrobyter · Feb 19, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
...

Retrobyter, how are you so sure it is I who "try too hard"? Perhaps it is you who do not try hard enough? Have you resisted sin unto blood? Yet we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I have even the wounds in my spiritual body to exemplify what I say from the Scripture. How then were you "circumcised in heart" if so be that you are indeed circumcised in heart? How is it that you have been "crucified with Messiah"? The Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Herod are all used for typology and allegory according to the doctrines of Yeshua in the four Gospel accounts, and this fact is especially portrayed in the Book of the Acts. Therefore beware of the anthropon-man-faced-countenance; for they will deliver you up to the Sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their Synagogues; and shall bring you before governors and kings for the sake of Messiah, for a testimony against them and the heathen, (Matthew 10:17-18). Therefore also beware of the leaven of Herod: for if one has a caul-chestplate of iron over the heart of gold then the Most High states exactly what he will use to tear it open for the circumcision of the man. And that is our own beasts which he will use against us; a lion or lioness, a bear bereaved of her cubs, and the brass belly of a four-headed leopard; even the wild beasts of Jeremiah 31:27, Daniel 7, and Revelation 13. :unsure:

Hosea 13:4-11 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11. I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

This genos-kind of "king" cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh …

It's really quite simple. You are not allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves; you ARREST them to say what YOU want them to say. That's how I know that YOU are the one who is "trying too hard."

The Scripture verses you just quoted from Hoshea's (Hosea's) book are a good example: The word translated "savior" or "saviour" (its Brittish spelling) is the Hebrew word "mowshiya`" and simply means a "rescuer" or a "deliverer." It does NOT mean that this must be Yeshua`!

Furthermore, the beasts that are listed are meant to represent YHWH Himself! Not some fictional "beasts within ourselves."

What do you do? Play "Bible roulette?" Spin the Bible and open it at random and wherever it opens those Scriptures have to be related to what you are talking about?! This passage has absolutely NO connection to what we were talking about in Luke 17:20-22! Indeed, NONE of the Scriptures which you quoted or to which you alluded had ANYTHING to do with them!

Just stick to the one Scripture passage, please, and hash it out from there!

Yeshua` was talking to the PHARISEES when He said, "the kingdom of God is 'within you!'" However, He was not talking to them individually; He was talking to them AS A GROUP!!! The word translated "you" (which, in the English of the KJV, is plural as opposed to the "thee" or "thou," which is singular) is the Greek word "humoon," a PLURAL WORD! And, as I've already said, the Greek word "entos" can mean "AMONG" as much as it can mean "within," depending on the context! You noted that "entos" comes from the shorter preposition "en" meaning "in," and that's true, but that can also mean "in the GROUP!" And, in THIS particular context, it should have been translated "AMONG!" He was not saying "the kingdom of God is within (each of) you"; He was saying "the kingdom of God is AMONG y'all," speaking directly to those "sons of Belial," the PHARISEES! He was not "waxing mysterious" or "spiritual"; He was saying to them, "HEY, guys! The KINGDOM OF GOD is RIGHT HERE, because I , the KING, am RIGHT HERE!" That's why it didn't have to come with observation or visible proof! IT WAS ALREADY THERE!!! HE WAS ALREADY THERE!!! BUT, He was not going to stick around for long! They were rejecting Him; so, He was going to reject them ... and LEAVE them! And, He warned His students that He was going to LEAVE THEM, TOO, in the process!

Do you get it, yet? Can you understand this? I don't know how much clearer I can get! Get your head out of the clouds and get your feet back on the ground! The Scriptures should NOT be misused as you misuse them! Indeed, your misuse of the Scriptures is SO bad, that it borders on abnormal! Thus, you "misuse" borders on "ABUSE!"

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 19, 2013

I am about to do a complete turnaround of my opinion about daq.

He has convinced me he has the biggest heart in the world.

I say that because he claims the abomination that will be set in the Jewish temple is actually in his heart.

And that my friends ...... requires a really big heart.

Retrobyter · Feb 19, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
O prophet, only this one thread have I commenced here in your domain! Am I not allowed to have a voice in the dominion of your kingdom? Beware lest you end up like your fathers the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, who slew Zechariah son of Berechiah between the altar and the naos-temple. And how is it that the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes of the time of Yeshua could have murdered Zechariah between the altar and the naou when the prophet himself lived some 450 years before their time? Is it not because they cut off his voice and forcefully misinterpreted his words? Yes, indeed, it was for this reason that the Master states the case against them:

Matthew 23:32-35 KJV
32. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew [GSN#5407 phoneuo] between the temple [GSN#3485 naos] and the altar.

Matthew 23:35 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
35. Hopos elthe efhumas pan haima dikaion ekchunnomenon epi tes ges, apotou haimatos Habel tou dikaiou heos tou haimatos Zachariou huiou Barachiou, hon efoneusate metaxu tou naou kai tou thusiasteriou!

Original Strong's Ref. #3485
Romanized naos
Pronounced nah-os'
from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple:
KJV--shrine, temple. Comp GSN2411.

Original Strong's Ref. #5407
Romanized phoneuo
Pronounced fon-yoo'-o
from GSN5406; to be a murderer (of):
KJV--kill, do murder, slay.

Original Strong's Ref. #5408
Romanized phonos
Pronounced fon'-os
from an obsolete primary pheno (to slay); murder:
KJV--murder, + be slain with, slaughter.

Matthew 23:35
35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom ye murdered between the naou-dwelling and the altar.

Messiah Yeshua is he that searches the reins and hearts, (Revelation 2:23 KJV) and the heart is therefore the seat and throne of both David and the Son of man Yeshua Messiah. So they were guilty of murdering the prophet Zechariah son of Berechiah even though he lived some 450 years before their time. And this they did because they slit his throat when they cut off his voice through forcefully misinterpreting his words and hiding the true meanings of his writings. Thus they slew him between the altar of the heart and the naou of the mind which is created to be the throne of the Most High; for the Most High hath said that he will dwell in the thick darkness of `araphel, (2 Chronicles 6:1 KJV).

Therefore the murder-death-kill that the wicked one practices does not have to be physical killing: for as the Master states, and has already been quoted herein from the previous page; the murder-death-killing comes forth from the heart:

AGAIN:

Matthew 15:18-20 KJV
18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, [GSN#5408 phonos] adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20. These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

THEREFORE:

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So do I get to keep my voice dear prophet? Yea, or naou?

This is a frequent mistake that well-meaning Christians make that should be corrected:

The "heart" is NOT talking about the "blood pump" that we carry in our chests.

"Heart" is an English translation of the Greek word "kardia" but the LATIN translation of that word is "cor" from which we get our word "core." The word means the "CORE of our thoughts," not the "blood pump!"

Just sayin'.

Guestman · Feb 19, 2013

In order to gain an understanding of Scripture, it is often necessary to consider surrounding Scriptures, or context. At Matthew 24, the subject under discussion is events that happens during Jesus "presence" (Greek parousia), for four of Jesus apostles had asked (after Jesus had said that "by no means will a stone be left on a stone and not be thrown down" concerning the temple, verse 2): "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things ?"(Matt 24:3)

Jesus lays out events that would give evidence of his "presence" though invisible (the major fulfillment that would happen after 1914 with Jesus installation as king of God's kingdom), speaking that "nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom....food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another" as a "beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:7, 8) Over time, lack of love would dominate human society (Matt 24:12) and that a global preaching campaign about God's kingdom would be accomplished before "the end" comes.(Matt 24:14)

Jesus now says that when true Christians "catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains."(Matt 24:15) What was the "disgusting thing" that 1st century Christians saw, causing them to flee to the mountain city of Pella ?

In the 1st and minor fulfillment of Matthew 24:15, in speaking of the arrival of the Messiah at the end of "sixty-nine weeks of years" (or 483 years) at Daniel 9:24 (this time period began in 455 B.C.E. with king Artaxerxes allowing Nehemiah to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, Neh 2, in which sixty-nine weeks of years ended in 29 C.E., with Jesus being baptized as the promised Messiah in the fall of that year., Matt 3:16, 17), it says that some time after Jesus death (or "cut off, with nothing for himself ", Dan 9:26a), that "the city and people for a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by flood. And until the end there will be war (from April 3-August 30, 70 C.E.); what is decided upon is desolations."(Dan 9:26b)

The city of Jerusalem and "the holy place" (the temple as considered holy by the Jews), "the people of a leader (General Titus leading the Roman armies) that is coming (in 70 C.E.) will bring to their ruin"(or total decimation). "And the end of it will be by the flood (of about 60,000 soldiers flooding through Jerusalem when it was finally broke open). And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations."

After arriving in March 70 C.E., Roman General Titus had his men strip the countryside of timber for up to ten miles in order to built a pointed fortification of stakes (Greek charax, meaning “a stake, i.e. a palisade”) 4.5 miles that surrounded Jerusalem (it took the Roman soldiers just three days to complete that normally would take months), so that no one could go in or go out. The city was in lockdown.(see Luke 19:41-44)

Because the Jews rejected Titus offer of peace when he reached the temple, with him requesting that they “spare your own holy places and preserve the Sanctuary for your own use, offering you freedom to come out and a guarantee of safety”, it was then “decided upon is desolations".

Daniel 9:27b states that "upon the wing of disgusting things (Hebrew shiq·quts´ ) there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the lying desolate." Hence, when Titus army brought their pagan standards within the temple complex and erected them opposite the east gate, this was considered as "disgusting" by the Jews.

An "extermination" was "decided upon" by Titus, with the Roman army "go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate." Hence, the Roman army with their pagan standards (which were guarded with religious veneration in the temples in Rome) were seen as “disgusting things” by the Jews.

When the “war” was over on August 30, 70 C.E., the entire city was demolished, with only the towers of Herod’s palace and a portion of the western wall left standing. Of the temple, it was completely leveled, with ‘ not a stone being left upon a stone’.(Matt 24:2)

The major fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-21 is soon to occur, in which Jesus spoke of a “great tribulation such as not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Rev 7:14) Thus, there is still yet future “the disgusting thing” that is to decimate false religion, Babylon the Great.

Just as the Roman army was the political forces of the day that destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, with Judaism having been rejected by Jehovah God (Matt 23:37-39), so too the religions of the “world” (including Christendom) that are combined under one heading - Babylon the Great - will be ‘ desolated ‘ by the modern day “disgusting thing”, the United Nations, also called “the scarlet-colored wild beast” at Revelation 17:3.

The modern day “disgusting thing” will direct the “ten horns”, the political governments of the earth (Rev 17:12) to “hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire”.(Rev 17:16)

daq · Feb 20, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

It's really quite simple. You are not allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves; you ARREST them to say what YOU want them to say. That's how I know that YOU are the one who is "trying too hard."

The Scripture verses you just quoted from Hoshea's (Hosea's) book are a good example: The word translated "savior" or "saviour" (its Brittish spelling) is the Hebrew word "mowshiya`" and simply means a "rescuer" or a "deliverer." It does NOT mean that this must be Yeshua`!

Furthermore, the beasts that are listed are meant to represent YHWH Himself! Not some fictional "beasts within ourselves."

What do you do? Play "Bible roulette?" Spin the Bible and open it at random and wherever it opens those Scriptures have to be related to what you are talking about?! This passage has absolutely NO connection to what we were talking about in Luke 17:20-22! Indeed, NONE of the Scriptures which you quoted or to which you alluded had ANYTHING to do with them!

Just stick to the one Scripture passage, please, and hash it out from there!

Yeshua` was talking to the PHARISEES when He said, "the kingdom of God is 'within you!'" However, He was not talking to them individually; He was talking to them AS A GROUP!!! The word translated "you" (which, in the English of the KJV, is plural as opposed to the "thee" or "thou," which is singular) is the Greek word "humoon," a PLURAL WORD! And, as I've already said, the Greek word "entos" can mean "AMONG" as much as it can mean "within," depending on the context! You noted that "entos" comes from the shorter preposition "en" meaning "in," and that's true, but that can also mean "in the GROUP!" And, in THIS particular context, it should have been translated "AMONG!" He was not saying "the kingdom of God is within (each of) you"; He was saying "the kingdom of God is AMONG y'all," speaking directly to those "sons of Belial," the PHARISEES! He was not "waxing mysterious" or "spiritual"; He was saying to them, "HEY, guys! The KINGDOM OF GOD is RIGHT HERE, because I , the KING, am RIGHT HERE!" That's why it didn't have to come with observation or visible proof! IT WAS ALREADY THERE!!! HE WAS ALREADY THERE!!! BUT, He was not going to stick around for long! They were rejecting Him; so, He was going to reject them ... and LEAVE them! And, He warned His students that He was going to LEAVE THEM, TOO, in the process!

Do you get it, yet? Can you understand this? I don't know how much clearer I can get! Get your head out of the clouds and get your feet back on the ground! The Scriptures should NOT be misused as you misuse them! Indeed, your misuse of the Scriptures is SO bad, that it borders on abnormal! Thus, you "misuse" borders on "ABUSE!"

I receive your statement as simply another accusation based in 2 Peter 3:16 of "wresting" the Scriptures. However, that is one of the very reasons I quote full passages of Scripture, (which apparently offends some here). If I take Scripture verses out of context then please show where? The matter of fact is that those not willing to post anything more than single line verses to support their theories are the ones wresting Scripture from its intended contexts so as to invent fanciful and imaginative new things for their "end of the world" scenarios. You and I appear to be from the two different aionos-ages; in my age ALL of the Scripture is in my thesaurus-treasury and comes forth both old and new. It appears you simply do not have enough Torah "in you" to understand what is being said. This is also the commandment concerning our partaking of the Pesach Lamb if indeed one will partake, (and before one may partake he must be "circumcised") and that is that you shall eat all of him, with both the good and the bitterness of the bitter herbs, and leave none of it till the "morning" come. Likewise the Pesach Lamb of YHWH is the WORD. Also "Mowshiya`" is transliterated "Messias" in the English reflection of the Greek but a "Meshiach" is simply an "anointed one" such as even Koresh was named, (the word Meshiach is of a "lesser status" than the word Mowshiya`). If only you and your counterparts would believe and understand such things you might likewise begin to understand the prophets and their writings, (i.e. Daniel 9:24-27 and the differences between "an anointed-meshiyach" and the Nagiyd-Commander of the Covenant). You want to speak of rightly dividing the Word but it appears that none of you do this when it comes to the most hotly debated passage in all of the prophetic writings; yet the Master himself explains why he is not the meshiyach of Daniel 9:24-27, and Paulos confirms this word. Even Strong's has it wrong in this respect because he, and most others now, have assumed that "Messias" comes from "meshiach" when it more likely comes from Mowshiya, (Mowshiya` is a form of Yesha`-Salvation which is Yeshua the right hand of the Father who is the only Salvation). Therefore when you say that Yeshua is Meshiach or when you write "Yeshua HaMeshiach" (HaMashiyach) you are unknowingly and unwittingly demoting the Master to a lesser status thinking yourself to be wise, (and the unbelieving Jews know this and laugh at you behind your back just so you know).

Was Koresh-Cyrus raised from the dead? Isaiah 45 concerns two different anointed ones: Koresh is merely an anointed-one-mashiyach. However the Tsemach-Tsedek, Branch of Righteouseness raised up in Tsdaqah-righteousness, is the Messias-Mowshiya`-Savior:

Isaiah 45:1-4
1. Thus saith YHWH to his mashiyach, to Kowresh, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I am YHWH, HaQowre' in the name of you, 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Ya`aqob my servant, and Yisra'el mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 45:8-15
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down tsedek-righteousness: let the earth open up, and let it bring forth the fruits of Yesha! and let tsdaqah-righteousness tsamach-sprout-shoots united; I YHWH did cut it down! [HSN#1254 bara']
9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11. Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Yisra'el and his Maker, Of things to come inquire ye concerning my sons? and concerning the work of my hands command ye me?
12. I have made the earth, and a man cut down [HSN#1254 bara'] upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13. I raised him up in tsdaqah-righteousness, and all his ways are straight: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH Tsabaoth.
14. Thus saith YHWH, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely 'El is in thee; and there is none else, there is none [other] 'Elohiym!
15. Verily thou art the 'El that hidest thyself, O 'Elohay of Yisra'el, Mowshiya`.

Original Strong's Ref. #1254
Romanized bara'
Pronounced baw-raw'
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):
KJV--choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Isaiah 45:1-15 Transliterated (Unaccented)
1. Koh- 'amar Yahweh limshiychow, l-Kowresh, 'sher-hechzaqtiy biymiynow lrad- lpanayw gowyim, Uwmatney mlakiym'pateach, liptoach lpanayw dlatayim uwsh`ariym lo'yicageruw:
2. 'Aniy lpaneyka 'elek. Wahrariym {*}'yasher {*}. Daltowt nchuwshah 'shaber ; uwbriychey barzel'gadea`.
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek, uwmaTmuneymictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy Yahweh, ha-Qowre' bshimka, 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. Lma`an `abdiy, Ya`aqob, w-Yisra'el,bchiyriy, wa'eqra' lka bishmeka. 'Akanka, wlo' yda`taniy.
5. 'Aniy Yahweh. W'eyn `owd. Zuwlatiy 'eyn 'Elohiym! 'A'azerka, wlo' yda`taniy,
6. lma`an yed`uw mimizrach-shemesh uwmima`rabah kiy- 'epec bil`aday. 'Aniy Yahweh. W'eyn `owd!
7. Yowtser 'owr uwbowre' choshek, `oseh shalowmuwbowre' ra`. 'Aniy, Yahweh, `oseh kal- 'eleh.
8. Har`iypuw, shamayim mima`al ; uwshchaqiym yizluw-tsedeq! Tiptach- 'erets ; wyipruw- yesha`! Uwtsdaqahtatsmiyach yachad! 'Aniy, Yahweh, bra'tiyw!
9. Howy rab 'et- Yotsrow, cheres 'et- charsey 'adamah. Hyo'mar chomer lyotsrow, Mah- ta`seh? Uwpa`alka, 'eyn-yadayim low?
10. Howy 'omer l'ab, Mah- towliyd? Uwl'ishah,mah- tchiyliyn?
11. Koh- 'amar Yahweh -- Qdowsh Yisra'el, w-Yotsrow: Ha'otiyowt, sh'aluwniy `al- banay w`al- po`al yadayttsawuniy?
12. 'Anokiy `asiytiy 'erets w'adam `aleyha bara'tiy 'niy yaday naTuw shamayim. Wkal- tsba'amtsiweytiy.
13. 'Anokiy ha`iyrotihuw btsedeq. Wkal-drakayw 'yasher. Huw'- yibneh `iyriy wgaluwtiy yshaleach,lo' bimchiyr, wlo' bshochad, 'amar Yahweh tsba'owt.
14. Koh 'amar Yahweh: Ygiya` Mitsrayim uwcchar- Kuwsh, uw-Cba'iym 'anshey midah, `alayik ya`boruw wlak. Yihyuw'achrayik. Yelekuw baziqiym ; ya`boruw. W'elayik yishtachwuw'elayik. Yitpalaluw, 'Ak bak 'El! W'eyn `owd -- 'epec'lohiym!
15. 'Aken 'atah 'El mictater, 'Elohey Yisra'el, Mowshiya`.

Perhaps if you had heard the Word from Joshua you might understand that HSN#1254 bara', generally translated as "created" (and mistakenly translated as such here in Isaiah 45) also means "TO CUT DOWN" in the sense of "cutting down trees" (Joshua 17:15-18 KJV).

Retrobyter · Feb 21, 2013

Shalom, daq.

I receive your statement as simply another accusation based in 2 Peter 3:16 of "wresting" the Scriptures. However, that is one of the very reasons I quote full passages of Scripture, (which apparently offends some here). If I take Scripture verses out of context then please show where? The matter of fact is that those not willing to post anything more than single line verses to support their theories are the ones wresting Scripture from its intended contexts so as to invent fanciful and imaginative new things for their "end of the world" scenarios. You and I appear to be from the two different aionos-ages; in my age ALL of the Scripture is in my thesaurus-treasury and comes forth both old and new. It appears you simply do not have enough Torah "in you" to understand what is being said. This is also the commandment concerning our partaking of the Pesach Lamb if indeed one will partake, (and before one may partake he must be "circumcised") and that is that you shall eat all of him, with both the good and the bitterness of the bitter herbs, and leave none of it till the "morning" come. Likewise the Pesach Lamb of YHWH is the WORD. Also "Mowshiya`" is transliterated "Messias" in the English reflection of the Greek but a "Meshiach" is simply an "anointed one" such as even Koresh was named, (the word Meshiach is of a "lesser status" than the word Mowshiya`). If only you and your counterparts would believe and understand such things you might likewise begin to understand the prophets and their writings, (i.e. Daniel 9:24-27 and the differences between "an anointed-meshiyach" and the Nagiyd-Commander of the Covenant). You want to speak of rightly dividing the Word but it appears that none of you do this when it comes to the most hotly debated passage in all of the prophetic writings; yet the Master himself explains why he is not the meshiyach of Daniel 9:24-27, and Paulos confirms this word. Even Strong's has it wrong in this respect because he, and most others now, have assumed that "Messias" comes from "meshiach" when it more likely comes from Mowshiya, (Mowshiya` is a form of Yesha`-Salvation which is Yeshua the right hand of the Father who is the only Salvation). Therefore when you say that Yeshua is Meshiach or when you write "Yeshua HaMeshiach" (HaMashiyach) you are unknowingly and unwittingly demoting the Master to a lesser status thinking yourself to be wise, (and the unbelieving Jews know this and laugh at you behind your back just so you know).

Was Koresh-Cyrus raised from the dead? Isaiah 45 concerns two different anointed ones: Koresh is merely an anointed-one-mashiyach. However the Tsemach-Tsedek, Branch of Righteouseness raised up in Tsdaqah-righteousness, is the Messias-Mowshiya`-Savior:

Isaiah 45:1-4
1. Thus saith YHWH to his mashiyach, to Kowresh, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I am YHWH, HaQowre' in the name of you, 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Ya`aqob my servant, and Yisra'el mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 45:8-15
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down tsedek-righteousness: let the earth open up, and let it bring forth the fruits of Yesha! and let tsdaqah-righteousness tsamach-sprout-shoots united; I YHWH did cut it down! [HSN#1254 bara']
9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11. Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Yisra'el and his Maker, Of things to come inquire ye concerning my sons? and concerning the work of my hands command ye me?
12. I have made the earth, and a man cut down [HSN#1254 bara'] upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13. I raised him up in tsdaqah-righteousness, and all his ways are straight: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH Tsabaoth.
14. Thus saith YHWH, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely 'El is in thee; and there is none else, there is none [other] 'Elohiym!
15. Verily thou art the 'El that hidest thyself, O 'Elohay of Yisra'el, Mowshiya`.

Original Strong's Ref. #1254
Romanized bara'
Pronounced baw-raw'
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):
KJV--choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Isaiah 45:1-15 Transliterated (Unaccented)
1. Koh- 'amar Yahweh limshiychow, l-Kowresh, 'sher-hechzaqtiy biymiynow lrad- lpanayw gowyim, Uwmatney mlakiym'pateach, liptoach lpanayw dlatayim uwsh`ariym lo'yicageruw:
2. 'Aniy lpaneyka 'elek. Wahrariym {*}'yasher {*}. Daltowt nchuwshah 'shaber ; uwbriychey barzel'gadea`.
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek, uwmaTmuneymictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy Yahweh, ha-Qowre' bshimka, 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. Lma`an `abdiy, Ya`aqob, w-Yisra'el,bchiyriy, wa'eqra' lka bishmeka. 'Akanka, wlo' yda`taniy.
5. 'Aniy Yahweh. W'eyn `owd. Zuwlatiy 'eyn 'Elohiym! 'A'azerka, wlo' yda`taniy,
6. lma`an yed`uw mimizrach-shemesh uwmima`rabah kiy- 'epec bil`aday. 'Aniy Yahweh. W'eyn `owd!
7. Yowtser 'owr uwbowre' choshek, `oseh shalowmuwbowre' ra`. 'Aniy, Yahweh, `oseh kal- 'eleh.
8. Har`iypuw, shamayim mima`al ; uwshchaqiym yizluw-tsedeq! Tiptach- 'erets ; wyipruw- yesha`! Uwtsdaqahtatsmiyach yachad! 'Aniy, Yahweh, bra'tiyw!
9. Howy rab 'et- Yotsrow, cheres 'et- charsey 'adamah. Hyo'mar chomer lyotsrow, Mah- ta`seh? Uwpa`alka, 'eyn-yadayim low?
10. Howy 'omer l'ab, Mah- towliyd? Uwl'ishah,mah- tchiyliyn?
11. Koh- 'amar Yahweh -- Qdowsh Yisra'el, w-Yotsrow: Ha'otiyowt, sh'aluwniy `al- banay w`al- po`al yadayttsawuniy?
12. 'Anokiy `asiytiy 'erets w'adam `aleyha bara'tiy 'niy yaday naTuw shamayim. Wkal- tsba'amtsiweytiy.
13. 'Anokiy ha`iyrotihuw btsedeq. Wkal-drakayw 'yasher. Huw'- yibneh `iyriy wgaluwtiy yshaleach,lo' bimchiyr, wlo' bshochad, 'amar Yahweh tsba'owt.
14. Koh 'amar Yahweh: Ygiya` Mitsrayim uwcchar- Kuwsh, uw-Cba'iym 'anshey midah, `alayik ya`boruw wlak. Yihyuw'achrayik. Yelekuw baziqiym ; ya`boruw. W'elayik yishtachwuw'elayik. Yitpalaluw, 'Ak bak 'El! W'eyn `owd -- 'epec'lohiym!
15. 'Aken 'atah 'El mictater, 'Elohey Yisra'el, Mowshiya`.

Perhaps if you had heard the Word from Joshua you might understand that HSN#1254 bara', generally translated as "created" (and mistakenly translated as such here in Isaiah 45) also means "TO CUT DOWN" in the sense of "cutting down trees" (Joshua 17:15-18 KJV).

Can we PLEASE cut the "garbage" out of all this? First of all, I have no problem with you quoting whole contexts; I do the same myself and encourage it. I'm not offended by that in the slightest. However, it is the usage of a passage that is not meant to be used in that way to which I object. Again, you have strayed GREATLY from the simple understanding of Luke 17:20-22. Why is that? Why can't you stay on a particular passage? Why do you have to go to great lengths to bring in passages which are FAR from the context of Luke's Gospel?

Secondly, I perceive that you are MUCH too figurative in your understanding of the Scriptures. "Not enough Torah 'in me?'" Is that your PROFESSIONAL opinion, or do you have ANY authorization to say "yea or nay?" I know that "Torah" means "instruction" rather than "the Law," as some insist, but who are YOU to judge another man's servant?!

Thirdly, why do you insist on using vague references to passages that are out of the realm of what we are talking about? Are you trying to look good? Because I've gotta tell ya'; it ain't workin'! Your comment, for instance, that "You and I appear to be from the two different aionos-ages; in my age ALL of the Scripture is in my thesaurus-treasury and comes forth both old and new," obviously (to me) comes from Matthew 13:52, but why bring that verse up? I can't even be sure that you understand Luke 17 let alone Matthew 13! And, if you think that we are in two different "aioonos-ages," you don't know what an "aioonos" is!

Fourthly, your assertion that "Even Strong's has it wrong in this respect because he, and most others now, have assumed 'Messias' comes from 'meshiach' when it more likely comes from Mowshiya, (Mowshiya` is a form of Yesha`-Salvation which is Yeshua the right hand of the Father who is the only Salvation)" is strictly YOUR opinion. "Mashiyach" is just that - an Anointed by Elohiym Himself - and I can understand why the Y'hudiym would mock one who makes the claim that Yeshua` was/is the Mashiyach of prophecy without checking out the claim with an open mind. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that you (or anyone) should then say that such a claim is in any way less than His position as "Mowshiya`!" He is BOTH, and they are EQUALLY descriptive of our Master! He is not only the "RESCUER" but He is also the "ANOINTED" - the "CHOSEN ONE TO BE KING!" He, like His ancestor Daviyd, was equally anointed to be haMelekh Y'hudiym v'Melekh Yisra'el v'Melekh haMalakhiym!

Furthermore, "Messias" is simply a Romanized Greek transliteration of "mashiyach." All one has to do is look up similar passages in the Hebrew and in the Septuagint to see that this is true. It's possible that is some cases "Messias" could be a transliteration of "mowshiya`," because they didn't have a "shin" or a "vav" or an "`ayin" in the Greek alphabet, but not very likely because they were already using that transliteration for "mashiyach!" But, one is not better than the other; they are equally descriptive of the Master in different ways. You're trying to say that "apples are better than oranges."

Finally, you don't understand what I believe about Dani'el 9:24-27 at all if you think I believe that the "nagiyd" of verse 26 is the "Commander of the Covenant!" And, Dani'el 9:24-27 IS about the Mashiach Yeshua`! It was HE who was cut off for the sins of His people (Isa. 53)! It was HE who caused the sacrifice and the gift to end (Heb. 10)! It was HE who left the household of Isra'el desolate because of the abominations of their rejection of Himself spreading out like a wing until they could say "Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH" (Matt. 23:37-39)! So, let's get your facts straight first! It seems you have some catching up to do!

daq · Feb 21, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

I receive your statement as simply another accusation based in 2 Peter 3:16 of "wresting" the Scriptures. However, that is one of the very reasons I quote full passages of Scripture, (which apparently offends some here). If I take Scripture verses out of context then please show where? The matter of fact is that those not willing to post anything more than single line verses to support their theories are the ones wresting Scripture from its intended contexts so as to invent fanciful and imaginative new things for their "end of the world" scenarios. You and I appear to be from the two different aionos-ages; in my age ALL of the Scripture is in my thesaurus-treasury and comes forth both old and new. It appears you simply do not have enough Torah "in you" to understand what is being said. This is also the commandment concerning our partaking of the Pesach Lamb if indeed one will partake, (and before one may partake he must be "circumcised") and that is that you shall eat all of him, with both the good and the bitterness of the bitter herbs, and leave none of it till the "morning" come. Likewise the Pesach Lamb of YHWH is the WORD. Also "Mowshiya`" is transliterated "Messias" in the English reflection of the Greek but a "Meshiach" is simply an "anointed one" such as even Koresh was named, (the word Meshiach is of a "lesser status" than the word Mowshiya`). If only you and your counterparts would believe and understand such things you might likewise begin to understand the prophets and their writings, (i.e. Daniel 9:24-27 and the differences between "an anointed-meshiyach" and the Nagiyd-Commander of the Covenant). You want to speak of rightly dividing the Word but it appears that none of you do this when it comes to the most hotly debated passage in all of the prophetic writings; yet the Master himself explains why he is not the meshiyach of Daniel 9:24-27, and Paulos confirms this word. Even Strong's has it wrong in this respect because he, and most others now, have assumed that "Messias" comes from "meshiach" when it more likely comes from Mowshiya, (Mowshiya` is a form of Yesha`-Salvation which is Yeshua the right hand of the Father who is the only Salvation). Therefore when you say that Yeshua is Meshiach or when you write "Yeshua HaMeshiach" (HaMashiyach) you are unknowingly and unwittingly demoting the Master to a lesser status thinking yourself to be wise, (and the unbelieving Jews know this and laugh at you behind your back just so you know).
Was Koresh-Cyrus raised from the dead? Isaiah 45 concerns two different anointed ones: Koresh is merely an anointed-one-mashiyach. However the Tsemach-Tsedek, Branch of Righteouseness raised up in Tsdaqah-righteousness, is the Messias-Mowshiya`-Savior:

Isaiah 45:1-4
1. Thus saith YHWH to his mashiyach, to Kowresh, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I am YHWH, HaQowre' in the name of you, 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Ya`aqob my servant, and Yisra'el mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 45:8-15
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down tsedek-righteousness: let the earth open up, and let it bring forth the fruits of Yesha! and let tsdaqah-righteousness tsamach-sprout-shoots united; I YHWH did cut it down! [HSN#1254 bara']
9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11. Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Yisra'el and his Maker, Of things to come inquire ye concerning my sons? and concerning the work of my hands command ye me?
12. I have made the earth, and a man cut down [HSN#1254 bara'] upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13. I raised him up in tsdaqah-righteousness, and all his ways are straight: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH Tsabaoth.
14. Thus saith YHWH, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely 'El is in thee; and there is none else, there is none [other] 'Elohiym!
15. Verily thou art the 'El that hidest thyself, O 'Elohay of Yisra'el, Mowshiya`.

Original Strong's Ref. #1254
Romanized bara'
Pronounced baw-raw'
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):
KJV--choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Isaiah 45:1-15 Transliterated (Unaccented)
1. Koh- 'amar Yahweh limshiychow, l-Kowresh, 'sher-hechzaqtiy biymiynow lrad- lpanayw gowyim, Uwmatney mlakiym'pateach, liptoach lpanayw dlatayim uwsh`ariym lo'yicageruw:
2. 'Aniy lpaneyka 'elek. Wahrariym {*}'yasher {*}. Daltowt nchuwshah 'shaber ; uwbriychey barzel'gadea`.
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek, uwmaTmuneymictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy Yahweh, ha-Qowre' bshimka, 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. Lma`an `abdiy, Ya`aqob, w-Yisra'el,bchiyriy, wa'eqra' lka bishmeka. 'Akanka, wlo' yda`taniy.
5. 'Aniy Yahweh. W'eyn `owd. Zuwlatiy 'eyn 'Elohiym! 'A'azerka, wlo' yda`taniy,
6. lma`an yed`uw mimizrach-shemesh uwmima`rabah kiy- 'epec bil`aday. 'Aniy Yahweh. W'eyn `owd!
7. Yowtser 'owr uwbowre' choshek, `oseh shalowmuwbowre' ra`. 'Aniy, Yahweh, `oseh kal- 'eleh.
8. Har`iypuw, shamayim mima`al ; uwshchaqiym yizluw-tsedeq! Tiptach- 'erets ; wyipruw- yesha`! Uwtsdaqahtatsmiyach yachad! 'Aniy, Yahweh, bra'tiyw!
9. Howy rab 'et- Yotsrow, cheres 'et- charsey 'adamah. Hyo'mar chomer lyotsrow, Mah- ta`seh? Uwpa`alka, 'eyn-yadayim low?
10. Howy 'omer l'ab, Mah- towliyd? Uwl'ishah,mah- tchiyliyn?
11. Koh- 'amar Yahweh -- Qdowsh Yisra'el, w-Yotsrow: Ha'otiyowt, sh'aluwniy `al- banay w`al- po`al yadayttsawuniy?
12. 'Anokiy `asiytiy 'erets w'adam `aleyha bara'tiy 'niy yaday naTuw shamayim. Wkal- tsba'amtsiweytiy.
13. 'Anokiy ha`iyrotihuw btsedeq. Wkal-drakayw 'yasher. Huw'- yibneh `iyriy wgaluwtiy yshaleach,lo' bimchiyr, wlo' bshochad, 'amar Yahweh tsba'owt.
14. Koh 'amar Yahweh: Ygiya` Mitsrayim uwcchar- Kuwsh, uw-Cba'iym 'anshey midah, `alayik ya`boruw wlak. Yihyuw'achrayik. Yelekuw baziqiym ; ya`boruw. W'elayik yishtachwuw'elayik. Yitpalaluw, 'Ak bak 'El! W'eyn `owd -- 'epec'lohiym!
15. 'Aken 'atah 'El mictater, 'Elohey Yisra'el, Mowshiya`.

Perhaps if you had heard the Word from Joshua you might understand that HSN#1254 bara', generally translated as "created" (and mistakenly translated as such here in Isaiah 45) also means "TO CUT DOWN" in the sense of "cutting down trees" (Joshua 17:15-18 KJV).
Can we PLEASE cut the "garbage" out of all this? First of all, I have no problem with you quoting whole contexts; I do the same myself and encourage it. I'm not offended by that in the slightest. However, it is the usage of a passage that is not meant to be used in that way to which I object. Again, you have strayed GREATLY from the simple understanding of Luke 17:20-22. Why is that? Why can't you stay on a particular passage? Why do you have to go to great lengths to bring in passages which are FAR from the context of Luke's Gospel?

Secondly, I perceive that you are MUCH too figurative in your understanding of the Scriptures. "Not enough Torah 'in me?'" Is that your PROFESSIONAL opinion, or do you have ANY authorization to say "yea or nay?" I know that "Torah" means "instruction" rather than "the Law," as some insist, but who are YOU to judge another man's servant?!

Thirdly, why do you insist on using vague references to passages that are out of the realm of what we are talking about? Are you trying to look good? Because I've gotta tell ya'; it ain't workin'! Your comment, for instance, that "You and I appear to be from the two different aionos-ages; in my age ALL of the Scripture is in my thesaurus-treasury and comes forth both old and new," obviously (to me) comes from Matthew 13:52, but why bring that verse up? I can't even be sure that you understand Luke 17 let alone Matthew 13! And, if you think that we are in two different "aioonos-ages," you don't know what an "aioonos" is!

Fourthly, your assertion that "Even Strong's has it wrong in this respect because he, and most others now, have assumed 'Messias' comes from 'meshiach' when it more likely comes from Mowshiya, (Mowshiya` is a form of Yesha`-Salvation which is Yeshua the right hand of the Father who is the only Salvation)" is strictly YOUR opinion. "Mashiyach" is just that - an Anointed by Elohiym Himself - and I can understand why the Y'hudiym would mock one who makes the claim that Yeshua` was/is the Mashiyach of prophecy without checking out the claim with an open mind. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that you (or anyone) should then say that such a claim is in any way less than His position as "Mowshiya`!" He is BOTH, and they are EQUALLY descriptive of our Master! He is not only the "RESCUER" but He is also the "ANOINTED" - the "CHOSEN ONE TO BE KING!" He, like His ancestor Daviyd, was equally anointed to be haMelekh Y'hudiym v'Melekh Yisra'el v'Melekh haMalakhiym!

Furthermore, "Messias" is simply a Romanized Greek transliteration of "mashiyach." All one has to do is look up similar passages in the Hebrew and in the Septuagint to see that this is true. It's possible that is some cases "Messias" could be a transliteration of "mowshiya`," because they didn't have a "shin" or a "vav" or an "`ayin" in the Greek alphabet, but not very likely because they were already using that transliteration for "mashiyach!" But, one is not better than the other; they are equally descriptive of the Master in different ways. You're trying to say that "apples are better than oranges."

Finally, you don't understand what I believe about Dani'el 9:24-27 at all if you think I believe that the "nagiyd" of verse 26 is the "Commander of the Covenant!" And, Dani'el 9:24-27 IS about the Mashiach Yeshua`! It was HE who was cut off for the sins of His people (Isa. 53)! It was HE who caused the sacrifice and the gift to end (Heb. 10)! It was HE who left the household of Isra'el desolate because of the abominations of their rejection of Himself spreading out like a wing until they could say "Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH" (Matt. 23:37-39)! So, let's get your facts straight first! It seems you have some catching up to do!

Ah so it is perfectly good and fair for you to judge others but not so fair when your judgment is proven false? And what will you do when you are actually judged with your own measure which you have meted out? If you do not like to be judged then why do you judge? And it was not me who brought up Mowshiya` was it? What short memories some of you have; and if you wanted to discuss Mowshiya` then why do you complain when Scripture is employed to put forth a stance? Does everyone here in the Eschatology Board go strictly by his own imagination instead of putting forth Scripture evidence?

Concerning your statement of Messiah being karath-cut off: How is it written of the Son of man?
That he should suffer many things only to be set to nought-nothingness-'ayin-exoudenoo?
And where is it written of Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu that they would do with him as they pleased?

You have the wrong "mashiyach" ... and no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, "Anathema Yeshua!"

Also it does not matter to whom the Master speaks directly in the passage, (i.e. the Pharisees) because the Gospel accounts are written by apostles and disciples to the entire congregation-ekklesia and that includes the account from Luke irrespective of to whom it is addressed, ("Theophilus"). In addition you are attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not say so as to enforce your own paradigm of a physical fleshly kingdom of God upon the physical world-wide planet earth, ruling a physical empire of fleshly kingdoms, over what I can only imagine you must think of as the "lesser-brethren millennial sheeples", (was that not already attempted in the middle of the last century?). The Luke passage clearly disputes what you profess because Yeshua tells them that the kingdom of God does not come with observation and neither shall they say, "See here! or, see there!", "Look here! or, look there!" As stated time and again already in this thread: "For the kingdom of God is inside you", (GSN#1787 entos). If you desire to prove your point that the kingdom of God is all around us and in our midst then you have an alternative passage which you have either not recognized, neglected, or ignored in making your case. However, it does not read "entos" (inside) but rather "mesos" (midst).

AGAIN:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.

Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.

Matthew 18:19-20 KJV
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.

Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.

Your argument requires changing the definitions of words to suit your paradigm. No thanks ...

daq · Feb 22, 2013

Bold red emphasis mine:

terry said:
The Two Witnesses --- me and aanother will be given those words when the time is right and if they are needed. this means you have no concept of revelation chapter 11. Yet without ANY ionderstanding of how this works - you coentend I do not know -

Speaking of "without" ... <_<

Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2. But the court which is without the temple leave [GSN#1544 ekballo] out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:2 Vertical Strong's #s
2.
|2532| And
|3588| the
|0833| court
|2081| within
|1855| the outer
|3485| temple
|1544| cast
|1854| outside,
|2532| and
|3361| not
|0846| it
|3354| do measure,
|3754| for
|1325| it was given
|3588| to the
|1484| nations,
|2532| and
|3588| the
|4172| city
|0040| holy
|3961| they will trample
|3376| months
|5062| forty-two.
|1417| -

Original Strong's Ref. #1544
Romanized ekballo
Pronounced ek-bal'-lo
from GSN1537 and GSN0906; to eject (literally or figuratively):
KJV--bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).

Original Strong's Ref. #1854
Romanized exo
Pronounced ex'-o
adverb from GSN1537; out(-side, of doors), literally or figuratively:
KJV--away, forth, (with-)out (of, -ward), strange.

Original Strong's Ref. #1855
Romanized exothen
Pronounced ex'-o-then
from GSN1854; external(-ly):
KJV--out(-side, -ward, - wardly), (from) without.

"But the court which is within the outer temple eject outward, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months"…

"Petros: Tarry in the inner court and feed my Circumcised!"

"Paulos: Go out to the Court of the Gentiles and bring them in to be Circumcised!"
"Ioannes: Thrust out the outer Court of the Gentiles and measure it not!"

tgwprophet · Feb 23, 2013

To understand is NOT to simply repeat what someone else shows or tellls...it is the ability to explain it in your own words.

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 23, 2013

terry said:
To understand is NOT to simply repeat what someone else shows or tellls...it is the ability to explain it in your own words.

You are exactly right.

I find it surprising how very few people can stand on their own feet and explain anything in their own words.

Brothertom · Feb 23, 2013

Deception comes when you think you understand something that is really untrue, I would ask this of Terry; You wrote that you are one of the Two Witnesses.....& that God gave you the authority to choose Witness #2...& that you would be the Teaching witness.

Why would God give that to you, seeing that He created Witness #2?...Don't you think that He & He alone would have already chosen him, before the foundation of the Earth?...& why would you want people to know? Isn't God big enough to reveal them in His Time?

This is my take: You are not one of the TWO WITNESSES. You are deluded; deceived...& my hope for you is that you would be content to just be a brother, & serve the body unto the least, & learn to love God & people....The path that you are on will cause you to fall deeper into the ditch than you have already. Can you let God do His job?

daq · Feb 23, 2013

Arnie Manitoba said:
You are exactly right.

I find it surprising how very few people can stand on their own feet and explain anything in their own words.

Is one unacceptable to you because he quotes more from the Scripture than from himself and his own imagination? Yet here in this very thread another comes in his own name, even claiming to be one of the two witnesses, and him you receive. If I speak the words of the Master then I have not entered herein of my own myself. One evening I sat down in the kingdom of heaven with Moshe to supper at Seder and immerse in the discourse of the washing of water into the Word; and when I had eaten my way into the fifth rib of the Lamb I found the following on my plate, and so I ate:

Deuteronomy 18:13-19 KJV
13. Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.
14. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15. The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16. According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

And who is "That Prophet" like unto Moses to whom we all must hearken? or if not it shall be required of us?
Who is that Prophet with the Word of the Most High in his mouth?

John 6:14-15 KJV
14. Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15. When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Acts 3:19-23 KJV
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed [GSN#1842 exolothreuo "to extirpate out"] from among the people.

Perhaps then you might reconsider and begin hearkening back unto that Prophet Yeshua, (and it would show in your words when you speak). Otherwise you too may find yourself cast out into outer darkness while the saints feast at the table of the Master with the fathers of the faith.

Retrobyter · Feb 24, 2013

Shalom, daq.

You said...

daq said:
Ah so it is perfectly good and fair for you to judge others but not so fair when your judgment is proven false? And what will you do when you are actually judged with your own measure which you have meted out? If you do not like to be judged then why do you judge? And it was not me who brought up Mowshiya` was it? What short memories some of you have; and if you wanted to discuss Mowshiya` then why do you complain when Scripture is employed to put forth a stance? Does everyone here in the Eschatology Board go strictly by his own imagination instead of putting forth Scripture evidence?

Concerning your statement of Messiah being karath-cut off: How is it written of the Son of man?
That he should suffer many things only to be set to nought-nothingness-'ayin-exoudenoo?
And where is it written of Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu that they would do with him as they pleased?

You have the wrong "mashiyach" ... and no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, "Anathema Yeshua!"

Also it does not matter to whom the Master speaks directly in the passage, (i.e. the Pharisees) because the Gospel accounts are written by apostles and disciples to the entire congregation-ekklesia and that includes the account from Luke irrespective of to whom it is addressed, ("Theophilus"). In addition you are attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not say so as to enforce your own paradigm of a physical fleshly kingdom of God upon the physical world-wide planet earth, ruling a physical empire of fleshly kingdoms, over what I can only imagine you must think of as the "lesser-brethren millennial sheeples", (was that not already attempted in the middle of the last century?). The Luke passage clearly disputes what you profess because Yeshua tells them that the kingdom of God does not come with observation and neither shall they say, "See here! or, see there!", "Look here! or, look there!" As stated time and again already in this thread: "For the kingdom of God is inside you", (GSN#1787 entos). If you desire to prove your point that the kingdom of God is all around us and in our midst then you have an alternative passage which you have either not recognized, neglected, or ignored in making your case. However, it does not read "entos" (inside) but rather "mesos" (midst).

AGAIN:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.

Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.

Matthew 18:19-20 KJV
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.

Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.

Your argument requires changing the definitions of words to suit your paradigm. No thanks ...

I don't judge the person; I judge the message. I count you as a brother and will continue to do so. And, show me again: where have you "proven my judgment is false"? And, where will I be when I am being judged by Yeshua` (for He does all the judging)? I'll stand there and take it like a man! I know that I've made mistakes and have belittled others from time to time. And, these I try to correct when I see them in myself. Again, I judge the message, not the man. So, I judge because in making statements that are nebulous, misrepresenting Scripture, one is TEACHING OTHERS THE SAME ERRORS! This is a MAJOR problem!

And, it WAS you who brought up Mowshiya`! WE were talking about haMashiach! The two, as you well know, are NOT synonymous, and it is "Mashiach" that is used in Dani'el 9:24-27, not "Mowshiya`."

NO, not everyone in this board goes by his/her own imagination; some actually let the Scriptures speak to HIM/HER! The problems arise when one imposes his/her own interpretation on what he/she is reading! And, I perceive that you are doing the same thing, whether you will admit to it or not.

Now, regarding the Mashiach being "karat-cut off," have you never read Isaiah 53? (I KNOW that you have.)

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off (Hebrew: nigzar - cut away/divided) out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

And, please don't say, "It's not the same word," because I KNOW that, but the words ARE Hebrew synonyms! The CONTEXT equates the two, not the words! No, He was not "cut off forever," but He WAS "separated from the land of the living!"

Don't make the mistake of believing everything that the NIV says about the translation of Dani'el 9. The Hebrew phrase is "v'eeyn low" which translates to "and nothing for himself." They left Him nothing in death; they divided His clothes among themselves and they gambled for His seamless garment. The words do NOT mean that He was "set to naught - nothingness - 'ayin - exoutheneoo"; and, you're mixing languages here, which can be VERY confusing and misleading! Your "'ayin," or rather "v'eeyn," is the Hebrew and "exoutheneoo" is Greek, and before you can compare the two, you really should have a set of verses where the OT is quoted in the NT or the OT is translated in the LXX, first! You're making too many unsubstantiated and unacceptable assumptions.

And regarding "Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu," or roughly "John the-Crier (for) Messiah, Elijah (to come)," we identify him by Isaiah 40:3 as it is quoted in Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23. But, in answer to your question, "where is it written of Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu that they would do with him as they pleased?" technically, it isn't.

It says...

Matthew 11:7-19
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
KJV

However, Yochanan WAS abused and mistreated as can be seen in the parable that Yeshua` told:

Matthew 21:32-39
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
KJV

So, no, I do not have the wrong "Mashiyach"; He is the same "Mashiyach" as in Psalm 2, a Messianic psalm. He is God's Anointed - God's CHOICE - for Isra'el's King, the LAST Anointed One for that purpose. And, just because I say that, does NOT mean that I am "calling 'Yeshua` anathema!'" (Talk about mixing languages!) I would never do such a thing, and you are blowing things WAY out of proportion to say or suggest that I am!

Finally, it DOES matter to whom Yeshua` was speaking! You absolutely MUST learn to interpret a passage according to its context! If you don't, you will continue to make HUNDREDS of such errors!

I am NOT "attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not say so as to enforce [my] own paradigm of a physical fleshly kingdom of God upon the physical world-wide planet earth, ruling a physical empire of fleshly kingdoms, over what [you] can only imagine must think of as the 'lesser-brethren millennial sheeples'!" Are you meshuggah?! Or are you just ignorant (in the original sense of the word), ignoring what the Scriptures actually say? I don't have to enforce my own paradigm or promote my own theories or agendas; IT'S ALREADY WRITTEN THERE! Just READ the OT Scriptures, particularly the prophecies, without embellishing them with some "spiritual" (actually, allegorical) interpretation! READ them with their NORMAL INTERPRETATION, and tell me that they're not talking about a physical kingdom! GET REAL!!! Time after time after time, the Isra'elites are encouraged with words about a LITERAL, PHYSICAL, ISRA'ELI KINGDOM ruled by God Himself through His Representative, the Messiah! This isn't brain surgery, but you MUST have eyes to see the obvious!

What I said about "entos" is the truth; it CAN be translated as either "within" or "among," and only context can determine which it should be. You need to get away from your lexicon-only understanding of the Hebrew and the Greek. One does NOT get the full picture of what is being said without the grammar and the parts of speech!

tgwprophet · Feb 24, 2013

Brothertom wrotee - ( out of ignornace - add ) : "
Deception comes when you think you understand something that is really untrue, I would ask this of Terry; You wrote that you are one of the Two Witnesses.....& that God gave you the authority to choose Witness #2...& that you would be the Teaching witness.

Why would God give that to you, seeing that He created Witness #2?...Don't you think that He & He alone would have already chosen him, before the foundation of the Earth?...& why would you want people to know? Isn't God big enough to reveal them in His Time?
This is my take: You are not one of the TWO WITNESSES. You are deluded; deceived...& my hope for you is that you would be content to just be a brother, & serve the body unto the least, & learn to love God & people....The path that you are on will cause you to fall deeper into the ditch than you have already. Can you let God do His job? "

It is unfortunate that you have certainly NOT read all the posts I wrote as to why I revealed who I am. Had you done that you would realize no fake could possess that wisdom oversuch a span of understandings.

And by the way... God will reveal it when it is time. Until then and becasue accepting a prophet because one KNOWS he is a prophet does not give a prohpet's reward !!!!!!!!!!!!! I revealed my self not for recognition of which I could care less and a means of elevating myself - but rather to gie the chance for others to obtain the same reward as that of a prophet - that is not selfish! That is why one major reason why... !!!!! Since you have denied me and becasue your "VISONS" are so convoluted and obscure I am certain you are no more than a troll.

This forum has had many trolls speaking just like you do - making all kinds of obscure and out of whack claims. "Vision" Claims like you contend are a dimne a dozen. All you have posted are false selff-elevating cartoons. I asked how you tested your visions and your reply was just as obscure as your cartoon stories. True test of a prophet is to give prophecy of the future and that means I can request you tell a major event occuring March 25th 2013 - and in specific, non-obscured detail too.. If you cannot, then you are not to be trusted!

Becasue MY time is of a witness and my time is restricted that test is not applicable to me until the 1.260 of my prophecy begins. So... prove me wrong... and I will retract the ad things I just said.... So now give a consice and major prophecy for March 25 2013. That is your test! Now anyone claiming so many visons (as you have) MUST be a prophet and if you cannot fiufill the test - then you are not to be trusted, but instead - claiming things for his own devices.

(For others reading this... this is a true test of a prohet.)

I on the other hand have told many, manytimes I can be tested. You have no clue as to how to do that - making your assumptions are unfounded, un-based and is Denial withOut Proof or Evidence !!!

Then you attempt to patch things up with hopes of me changing my path? My Path is what God has instructed me! This makes yu idea to attemptto patchthing up nothing more than an attempt as to not receive repremaqnd from the forum and/or its members... and that is LAME - at best. Notice my correction bears no attempt to disguise my intent. It stands on its merit.

Your best plan of action would have been to super glue your fingers to the refrigerator that you could no thave typed a single denial against me.
Using your words you pulled from the Word of God.... I am a Witnesses foretold in Revelation chapter 11 - Thus saith thee Lord thy God. IF I lied about this. my end should be in Hell where I would belong ! These are my words! And by our words we are judged. And I will NOT Deny My LORD GOD And his Son - my Saviour - Christ Jesus - If I am "deluted" and and liar I should be confined to Hell as any fase prophet should be! These words of mine cannot be more adamant... and in my words about who i am and if not, where I should end up.... to them I say... AMEN !

I give you this ne chance for retracttion... my best advice is to use it to the fullest extent you possibly can and without any attempt of protecting the evil words you posted.

If not... when you discover I am one of Two Witnesses know this... You have taken away from the Book of Revelation and that is to be taken from you... For it is written.

If my words seem to harsh... read about me in Chapter 11 of Revelation.

For those who have help their tongue and denial at bay... Ias have said I condone skeptisim and so when you discover the truth of my words... though your skeptisism, my Wwitnesses will be you stood in agreement, for holding denial is a big thing to do.

daq · Feb 24, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

You said...

I don't judge the person; I judge the message. I count you as a brother and will continue to do so. And, show me again: where have you "proven my judgment is false"? And, where will I be when I am being judged by Yeshua` (for He does all the judging)? I'll stand there and take it like a man! I know that I've made mistakes and have belittled others from time to time. And, these I try to correct when I see them in myself. Again, I judge the message, not the man. So, I judge because in making statements that are nebulous, misrepresenting Scripture, one is TEACHING OTHERS THE SAME ERRORS! This is a MAJOR problem!

And, it WAS you who brought up Mowshiya`! WE were talking about haMashiach! The two, as you well know, are NOT synonymous, and it is "Mashiach" that is used in Dani'el 9:24-27, not "Mowshiya`."

NO, not everyone in this board goes by his/her own imagination; some actually let the Scriptures speak to HIM/HER! The problems arise when one imposes his/her own interpretation on what he/she is reading! And, I perceive that you are doing the same thing, whether you will admit to it or not.

Now, regarding the Mashiach being "karat-cut off," have you never read Isaiah 53? (I KNOW that you have.)

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off (Hebrew: nigzar - cut away/divided) out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

And, please don't say, "It's not the same word," because I KNOW that, but the words ARE Hebrew synonyms! The CONTEXT equates the two, not the words! No, He was not "cut off forever," but He WAS "separated from the land of the living!"

Don't make the mistake of believing everything that the NIV says about the translation of Dani'el 9. The Hebrew phrase is "v'eeyn low" which translates to "and nothing for himself." They left Him nothing in death; they divided His clothes among themselves and they gambled for His seamless garment. The words do NOT mean that He was "set to naught - nothingness - 'ayin - exoutheneoo"; and, you're mixing languages here, which can be VERY confusing and misleading! Your "'ayin," or rather "v'eeyn," is the Hebrew and "exoutheneoo" is Greek, and before you can compare the two, you really should have a set of verses where the OT is quoted in the NT or the OT is translated in the LXX, first! You're making too many unsubstantiated and unacceptable assumptions.

And regarding "Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu," or roughly "John the-Crier (for) Messiah, Elijah (to come)," we identify him by Isaiah 40:3 as it is quoted in Matthew 3:3, Mark 1:3, Luke 3:4, and John 1:23. But, in answer to your question, "where is it written of Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu that they would do with him as they pleased?" technically, it isn't.

It says...

Matthew 11:7-19
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
KJV

However, Yochanan WAS abused and mistreated as can be seen in the parable that Yeshua` told:

Matthew 21:32-39
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
KJV

So, no, I do not have the wrong "Mashiyach"; He is the same "Mashiyach" as in Psalm 2, a Messianic psalm. He is God's Anointed - God's CHOICE - for Isra'el's King, the LAST Anointed One for that purpose. And, just because I say that, does NOT mean that I am "calling 'Yeshua` anathema!'" (Talk about mixing languages!) I would never do such a thing, and you are blowing things WAY out of proportion to say or suggest that I am!

Finally, it DOES matter to whom Yeshua` was speaking! You absolutely MUST learn to interpret a passage according to its context! If you don't, you will continue to make HUNDREDS of such errors!

I am NOT "attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not say so as to enforce [my] own paradigm of a physical fleshly kingdom of God upon the physical world-wide planet earth, ruling a physical empire of fleshly kingdoms, over what [you] can only imagine must think of as the 'lesser-brethren millennial sheeples'!" Are you meshuggah?! Or are you just ignorant (in the original sense of the word), ignoring what the Scriptures actually say? I don't have to enforce my own paradigm or promote my own theories or agendas; IT'S ALREADY WRITTEN THERE! Just READ the OT Scriptures, particularly the prophecies, without embellishing them with some "spiritual" (actually, allegorical) interpretation! READ them with their NORMAL INTERPRETATION, and tell me that they're not talking about a physical kingdom! GET REAL!!! Time after time after time, the Isra'elites are encouraged with words about a LITERAL, PHYSICAL, ISRA'ELI KINGDOM ruled by God Himself through His Representative, the Messiah! This isn't brain surgery, but you MUST have eyes to see the obvious!

What I said about "entos" is the truth; it CAN be translated as either "within" or "among," and only context can determine which it should be. You need to get away from your lexicon-only understanding of the Hebrew and the Greek. One does NOT get the full picture of what is being said without the grammar and the parts of speech!

I never mentioned the name or title "Mowshiya`" until after you did and that is clear to anyone with eyes to read.

Quote:]"But, in answer to your question, "where is it written of Yochanan haQowre' mashiyach Eliyahu that they would do with him as they pleased?" technically, it isn't."[End quote.

You do not believe Yeshua when he states "IT IS WRITTEN" that they would do with Elijah what they pleased?

Mark 9:13 KJV
13. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

As already stated to another; one must be willing to believe the statements of the Master.
Not sure what else to say concerning this except that any true disciple believes the Word ...

Luke 1:17 KJV
17. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, [<- hint! hint! a mashiyach-anointed one!] to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

And what did they do with mashiyach Yochanan who had the anointing of the Spirit of Eliyahu? Do you not consider physical beheading as being "karath-cut off"? That is about as "literal" as it gets would you not agree? And when you say that Messiah was "cut off" to nothingness-non-existence, (because that is what 'ayin means which is employed in Daniel 9:26), even if you say the Father turned away from the Son for a "split second" (which is impossible outside of time) then you are essentially saying that Yeshua was anathema, excommunicated, "scapegoated", or "cut off" from the congregation.

Original Strong's Ref. #369
Romanized 'ayin
Pronounced ah'-yin
as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:
KJV--else, except, fail, [father-]less, be gone, in[-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor, (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un(-searchable), well-nigh, without. Compare HSN0370.

The same word is used for Enoch who was taken and was "not-'ayin", ("w'eynenuw" Genesis 5:24) and again the same word is used for the final evil king of Daniel 11:45, ("w'eyn `owzer low" "there is none-nothing-not-'ayin" a help for him). This word implies an absolute negative which includes the possibility of non-existence. It is used of mere mortal men like Yochanan the Immerser. Truly it is written of John Elias the Cryer, (haQowre') in the wilderness that they would karath-cut him off and set him to nought-nothingness. In fact haQowre' is the very name that Yochanan gives for himself, (John 1:23) when they ask him who he is and he quotes Isaiah 40:3, ("qowl qowre' bamidbar"). Sorry you refuse see past your mindset ...

tgwprophet · Feb 24, 2013

Sorry to get you into this mess Rerobyter... Daq'a imagination seems to sun rampant, but hie abiliy to paste and copy is only equaled by his ability to include un-related scriptures.

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