Does God Love Sinners?

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lesjude

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forrestcupp said:
There is a huge difference between foreknowing and forcing. God knows who are going to be His, but He lets us make the choice on our own. Choosing salvation doesn't create salvation. If I'm driving down the road and I see a McDonald's on one side and a Taco Bell on the other, and I pull into McDonald's to get a burger, I just chose the burger; I didn't cook and prepare it. We're saved by grace through faith. Grace is what saves us, but it requires our believing and accepting. Guess what? Rom. 12:3 says that God has allotted to each the measure of faith, not just to some elect group. Everyone has the ability to choose God's salvation.
The Bible says no sinner would even seek salvation. Romans 3:9-18


If God is truly sovereign and omnipotent, then it's within His realm of possibility to make every person elect. If it's truly not our choice, then it's not our fault, but God's if we go to hell. If it's possible for God to make every person elect, but He doesn't, then wouldn't that make Him unjust? And on the other hand, if God is the one who chooses people's election status and 1 Timothy 2:4 is true, where it says that God desires all men to be saved, wouldn't that imply that God isn't all powerful? He wants all men to be saved, it's all up to Him who is saved, but obviously all men are not saved, so God must not be very powerful. This is a pretty low opinion of the creator of heaven and earth. It makes a lot more sense to me that God wants us all to be saved, but He doesn't want to force us to be His loving robots, so He leaves the choice up to us. We choose Him; He saves us.
Everything God does is just including electing some and not others.
The Bible clearly says God chooses us. We do not choose Him.
John 15:16

New King James Version (NKJV)


16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2 Thessalonians 2:13


New King James Version (NKJV)

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by
the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through
sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

About predestination, Abraham's seed is Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

It's only when we are in Christ that we become Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

We are predestined through Christ.

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Christ is the one that is predestined, and whoever is in Him is predestined, too, by default. Jesus is like a ship that already has its destination set. Whoever gets on that ship is obviously going to that preset destination. Predestination is not an individual thing. It's the Body of Christ that is predestined. Whoever becomes a part of the Body of Christ becomes part of that predestination. Salvation comes only from God and His grace through the blood of Jesus, but we choose whether to accept it or not.

This sounds quite spiritual and logical but is just another perversion of grace. Making a choice means man can do a work to be saved on His own which is NOT grace. To say that God does not elect individuals is contrary to scripture:
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)


11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
 

dragonfly

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Hi lesjude,

This sounds quite spiritual and logical but is just another perversion of grace.
How is it a perversion of grace?

Grace is the power which God exercises towards mankind which enables us (believers) to 'be' like Jesus. Unless we are 'in Christ' we have not the slightest possibility of being like Jesus. Being in Christ is a basic NT concept. The only reason we are anything at all in God, is because Christ is all that we could dream of being in our most lucid good dream. Unless we are in Christ, we risk being cut down and gathered into the fire.

Making a choice means man can do a work to be saved on His own which is NOT grace. To say that God does not elect individuals is contrary to scripture:
Making a choice is mandatory. You make it sound as if the concept is extra-biblical, when Christ was constantly requiring men to make choices! Every time He said, 'Follow me', or told a person 'Sin no more', or asked someone what they wanted, people were faced with choosing a response.

Now I know it's also true that when God speaks a creative word to someone - such as 'Follow me', or 'Sin no more', that the person is now enabled to carry out that command. But isn't that the very point of the parable Jesus told about the two sons who were asked to work in their father's field? Not only did one of them lie to their father, but the one who had chosen to disobey Him straight away, was the one who chose to repent and obey. There was a lot of choosing going on right there in those five sentences, and Jesus follows it up with a question to His listeners, who have to choose a reply.

Choosing to obey God, to seek God, to co-operate with God - is what God made man to do. How can it be a 'work', when he functions normally?


No-one is saying that individuals are not elected, but they become 'elect' by trusting in Christ. Until they have trusted in Christ, they are unsaved.
 
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lesjude

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dragonfly said:
Hi lesjude,


How is it a perversion of grace?

Grace is the power which God exercises towards mankind which enables us (believers) to 'be' like Jesus. Unless we are 'in Christ' we have not the slightest possibility of being like Jesus. Being in Christ is a basic NT concept. The only reason we are anything at all in God, is because Christ is all that we could dream of being in our most lucid good dream. Unless we are in Christ, we risk being cut down and gathered into the fire.


Making a choice is mandatory. You make it sound as if the concept is extra-biblical, when Christ was constantly requiring men to make choices! Every time He said, 'Follow me', or told a person 'Sin no more', or asked someone what they wanted, people were faced with choosing a response.



Now I know it's also true that when God speaks a creative word to someone - such as 'Follow me', or 'Sin no more', that the person is now enabled to carry out that command. But isn't that the very point of the parable Jesus told about the two sons who were asked to work in their father's field? Not only did one of them lie to their father, but the one who had chosen to disobey Him straight away, was the one who chose to repent and obey. There was a lot of choosing going on right there in those five sentences, and Jesus follows it up with a question to His listeners, who have to choose a reply.

Choosing to obey God, to seek God, to co-operate with God - is what God made man to do. How can it be a 'work', when he functions normally?
The point is NO ONE who is not elect will seek God. PLEASE read Romans 3:9-18. God only made His elect to seek, obey, and cooperate with God. The rest will only choose to go on sinning to a greater or lesser degree receiving greater or lesser punishment in hell.

No-one is saying that individuals are not elected, but they become 'elect' by trusting in Christ. Until they have trusted in Christ, they are unsaved.
This is not possible for 2 reasons. Romans 3:9-18, and making a choice by the power of ones own freewill would NOT be grace. Read Ephesians 2:8-9. It would mean they did something, a work, to deserve salvation by their own power. No one does because God makes sure they choose Jesus by election before time began. From the elects' side they do make a free will choice but from God's side He gives them the grace to do it. The "others" do not get it, do not want it, scoff at God and the gospel message, and freely go on with a life apart from Jesus with no concerns. Oh they may say I will choose God just before I die however they will die the way they lived as cockpit voice recorders clearly indicate. They still will not release the tapes of the first space shuttle disaster. I wonder why.
 

IAmAWitness

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The answer is pretty much the opposite of what almost any Christian would tell you. God does not love everyone. And not everyone He loves He loves equally as much. Some people God absolutely hates (Malachi 1:2,3). So are all sinners loved, or are all sinners hated? No. But there are people that God hates.
 

Axehead

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I suppose I have become increasingly suspicious of how the word "sovereignty" is used in theological discussions.

The Biblical usage of the word "sovereignty" in reference to God is malku in the OT and it's meaning is "King, Kingdom, reign or royalty.


Psa 103:19 "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." NASB uses sovereignty, otherwise it never appears in the KJV, even once.

מלכיּה מלכת מלכוּת
malkûth malkûth malkûyâh
mal-kooth', mal-kooth', mal-koo-yaw'
a rule; concretely a dominion: - empire, kingdom, realm, reign, royal.

This time I will show the NASB - Dan. 7:27 - "the sovereignty (instead of kingdom), the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him."

1. Heb. word malku is best translated "kingdom" in all cases. Other three usages of malku in Dan. 7:27 are translated the same way.

"Sovereignty" is not necessarily a Biblical word, but only a theological concept.

The word "sovereignty" became popular in theological usage after John Calvin, a French Reformer, 1509-1564. He wrote the book called Institutes of Christian Religion. Sermons. Commentaries.

Looking back, the Protestant Reformation was a reaction against Roman Catholic emphasis on "works." They stipulated all manner of things that man must do to please God. Protestants on the other hands said that "It is what God does; not what man does that is important!" The Protestant Protestant "Pendulum" swung all the way to the other side where theology in general became a belief system with its starting point in God's activity, what God does and not WHO HE IS. And, thus it became a distorted theology with many different "streams" of protestant thought. Calvinistic theology refers to "sovereign authority, sovereign power, control, causation, rule, reign, purpose, will, decrees, determinations, counsel, fore-ordination, grace, and sovereign love, etc.

There is never really a precise definition given. The concept is ambiguous and poorly defined. The ill-defined concept of "Sovereignty" becomes the cornerstone of Calvinistic theology.

Some quotes from Calvinist theologians:
A.W Pink - a Calvinistic theologian said that "The doctrine of God's sovereignty lies at the foundation of Christian theology."
J.M. Boice said, - "The doctrine of the sovereignty of God is the doctrine that gives means and substance to all other doctrines."
Paul Enns - "Foundational to the entire system of Calvinism is the doctrine of the sovereignty of God."
F.H. Klooster - "The confession of the sovereignty of God has become the hallmark of authentic Calvinism."
L. Berkhof - "Reformed theology stresses the sovereignty of God in virtue of which He has sovereignly determined from all eternity whatsoever will come to pass..."

It is no wonder that we have a theology today where even man's acceptance of and receiving of God's gift of salvation is being called into question as an act of works so therefore his salvation cannot be true salvation. This "passivity" leads right into their life of "discipleship", and the concept of the Cross, holiness, and sanctification are only concepts and not reality.

The divergent concepts of sovereignty has led to various theologies. (1) Covenant theology - "God has determined to act in an unchanging, unalterable, uniformitarian way." (2) Dispensational theology - "God has determined to keep His promise to a particular racial and national people — the Jews."

What has really happened is that the concept of "sovereignty" has become an idolatrous, theological construct. It has become a "trojan horse" within the Church. Just have a read of what A.W. Pink (a Christian theologian)

"The doctrine of God's sovereignty ...is the centre of gravity in the system of Christian truth — the sun around which all lesser orbs are grouped. It is the golden milestone to which every highway of knowledge leads and from which they all radiate. It is the cord upon which all other doctrines are strung like so many pearls, holding them in place and giving them unity. It is the plumbline by which every creed needs to be measured, the balance in which every human dogma must be weighed. It is designed as the sheet-anchor for our souls amid the storms of life. The doctrine of God's sovereignty is a Divine cordial to refresh our spirits. It is designed and adapted to mould the affections of the heart and to give a right direction to conduct. It produces gratitude in prosperity and patience in adversity. It affords comfort for the present and a sense of security respecting the unknown future. It is, and it does all, and much more than we have just said...."

This is nothing more than a deification of the ideological concept of "sovereignty" and the consequences of this distorted theological premise are many: Above all is a strict deterministic belief system with slight variations of what God has determined and predestined, absolutism - where ideology and morality becomes absolute rather than God, and religionism instead of relationship where belief systems and behavioral/morality systems abound.

There are many more and I should mention passivism, too. The Believer who was passive in answering the call of the Lord remains passive in his Christian walk because he has been taught that any "work" on his part takes away from grace. He becomes quite adept at religion and playing religion's game.

This is what happens when you start with the activity of God instead of the character of God as your foundation. Lordship controversies abound because once again they focus on the function and activity of lordship instead of who God is as Lord.

I have found it best to stop using the word "sovereignty" because of its ambiguity and lack of definition in relation to Bible language. It also has too much theological baggage that it has attracted through the centuries. Best not to use it. If it is used, it is probably best used as a synonym of the Hebrew word adonai and the Greek word kurios, to refer to God and Jesus Christ as Lord." It should definitely not be used in reference to man's state in general.

Out of this strict determinism called the "Sovereignty" of God come Total Depravity, Unconditional Election and 3 more petals from the tuilp and many variations of Calvinism.

One extreme is complete passivity, a Sunday religion where Christ will do all and there is nothing you can do, while the other extreme is Universalism, where once again you are passive and Christ will do all and there is nothing you can do.

Axehead
 
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KingJ

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lesjude said:
You have already passed judgement on God's sovereignty with your first statement. God does NOT show favoritism by electing some and not others. If He did not elect some none would be saved. Nor would He be showing favoritism if your family were divided between heaven and hell. You have charged God foolishly.
Are you for real? You don't see how silly your argument is? How is God ''electing some and not others'' not favouritism?

If the bible says God is impartial, then God is impartial. Just as He upheld scripture stating 'the wages of sin is death', 'He is good', 'He is is merciful' with His Son, we can trust that He will uphold being impartial to the maximum. If that requires Him to take a knock to His omnisicience I believe He will do it. He took a knock with Jesus when He left and forsook Him on the cross.

Inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.

Total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God
chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.


I dare you to go to a hospital and tell the parents of a new-born baby that God is so good that their baby will go to hell with no hope as He shows favouritism (sorry, my bad, elects some and not others) and they are un-regenerates. Every Christian and non-Christian will rightly punch you in the face.

You fail to grasp you are in a corner. You fail at common sense. You fail at Christianity.

I hope you come to your senses before you land up in hell as the gospel has clearly flown over your head. I can only pray for you.
 

dragonfly

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Hi lesjude,

I did read the passage in Romans 3, and note that everything Paul quoted were things that God had said about Israel.

I'm sure you remember that the whole of Israel had agreed to a covenant with God at Sinai.

Therefore, what God is complaining about is not of men who have never heard of Him that do not seek Him, but of men who had grown up having been circumcised as a sign of their descent from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - the fathers whose God they were nationally covenanted to worship - were behaving in the manner the verses describe, neither seeking Him nor obeying His commands.

Your use of the passage in Romans 3 is a classic example of how scripture can be taken out of context.

Furthermore, there is ample OT text to show that the Gentiles were aware of God, but that is another discussion.


Regarding grace you said:

making a choice by the power of ones own freewill would NOT be grace
You are missing - or forgetting - that earlier in the thread you stated that God makes the offer of salvation to everyone. Is that not His grace?

His grace affects some people in such a way as they want to receive His offer of salvation. How can that be a work?

No-one is suggesting that God did not do everything to make it possible for salvation to be a free gift, but surely to obtain the gift one has to receive it?
 

Axehead

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Some people buy into the heresy of "oriiginal sin" (which spawned infant baptism). We are not held accountable for Adam's sin but we suffer because of it. Sin-nature and original sin are very different.

No one is saying that man can save himself. Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark_10:25-27

Yes, the Bible declares that "whosoever will" (anyone) can be saved. It is an act of a person's will to receive the Lord Jesus. Thus, Jesus is being very disingenuous by leading us astray and saying "whosoever" instead of specifically saying "only the elect". And then the Apostles continue the deception in their preaching and we continue the deception by repeating in our preaching and sharing the gospel, "that whosoever calls on the Lord will be saved".

"Calling on the Lord" is also an act of the will. No where do we see in "real" life, the parallel of this Calvinistic teaching that one can receive anything without first engaging his will to take what is being offered.

Titus_2:11 says this: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." Of course to Calvinists, "hidden" in all these scriptures which contain "all men", "whosoever" and others is the unwritten, knowing that Jesus is only speaking to the "Elect". That is what they tell you.

To support their doctrine they will even tell you what the Scriptures are saying, even though they ARE NOT saying it. That is true deception. To support their theology that ONLY CERTAIN sinners will be saved and that GOD chooses who will be saved and man has no role to play in choosing life or death (eternal), they take the smug position that no one knows what the Bible is saying except the Elect.

The Bible teaches that all Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestined to Salvation.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Calvinism teaches predestination unto salvation and yet the Apostles who learned from Jesus are being deceptive again by saying the following:
Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now, in the following verse, if Jesus only died for all the Elect and not all men, why wouldn't the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostle to write this? Possibly because HE DID DIE FOR ALL MEN?
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Imagine what the world of Christianity would have been like through the ages if the Bible did say what Calvinists teach. If the word "Elect" were in all these scriptures that have given. The power of the Gospel would be rendered anemic. ALL men, everywhere could have no hope, no impetus of knowing whether they were elect or not and all they could do was "hope" that they were elect.

Here is a verse that teachers of "salvation of the elect", love to quote (though they quote it out of context to support their belief system).
Lam_3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

So, what has caused millions of men and women, worldwide to take great pains to preach the Gospel worldwide if all we should do is "quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord?"

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:3-4)

I know, I know. Paul REALLY MEANS "All men who are the elect", right? After a while you can get pretty good at reading the Bible like a Calvinist (or variation of Calvinist) does.

This is such hogwash:
In Calvin's commentary on "Catholic Epistles" on 1st John 3:9, he uses the word "perseverance", clearly stating:


1. "the hearts of the godly are so effectually governed by the Spirit of God, that through an inflexible disposition they follow his guidance." (John Calvin)

2. "the power of the Spirit is so effectual, that it necessarily retains us in continual obedience to righteousness." (John Calvin)

Here is a man that not only teaches against the Bible and turns a blind eye to the dynamics between God and men but does not live in reality. Believers sin, and sometimes they sin egregiously. John Calvin's commentaries on Corinthians should be interesting.

Axehead
 
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dragonfly

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'The Bible teaches that all Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestined to Salvation.'


That is one great sentence, Axehead. :)
 

lesjude

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KingJ said:
Are you for real? You don't see how silly your argument is? How is God ''electing some and not others'' not favouritism?

If the bible says God is impartial, then God is impartial. Just as He upheld scripture stating 'the wages of sin is death', 'He is good', 'He is is merciful' with His Son, we can trust that He will uphold being impartial to the maximum. If that requires Him to take a knock to His omnisicience I believe He will do it. He took a knock with Jesus when He left and forsook Him on the cross.

Inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.

Total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God
chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.


I dare you to go to a hospital and tell the parents of a new-born baby that God is so good that their baby will go to hell with no hope as He shows favouritism (sorry, my bad, elects some and not others) and they are un-regenerates. Every Christian and non-Christian will rightly punch you in the face.

You fail to grasp you are in a corner. You fail at common sense. You fail at Christianity.

I hope you come to your senses before you land up in hell as the gospel has clearly flown over your head. I can only pray for you.
The Bible says that freewill is only a name for how and to what extent people will choose to disobey God. It also says that is their nature as fallen men and NONE will seek God. God does give them freewill and they will ALWAYS exercise it continuing in sin, Romans 3:9-18 is clear. If God did not elect some none would EVER be saved.

God NEVER left Jesus on the cross. The Godhead cannot be divided up. Doing so is the edge of heresy and leads to what the WOF heretics teach about the atonement which is Christ's atonement was not finished on the cross, but as a sinner He had to suffer 3 days under Satan in Hades and be born again. The Bible give no hope of salvation to anyone who believes heresy.

No one can say that a person is going to hell or is not elect or a specific baby is or is not going to hell. ONLY God knows these things. I gave an example of one child of gross sinners hated by God that God had mercy on 2 Kings 14. Christians preach the gospel to any and all then God adds those He has elected. Acts 13:48, Acts 2:47, 1 Corinthians 3:6. It is only the demonic thought patterns of humanism that lead you to think election is unfair and all babies go to heaven. Read Psalm 58:3 and 1 Corinthians 7:14. God ordered the extermination of all the "ites" in Canaan including babies and pregnant women. ALL of them went to hell! Are You charging God with unfairness and folly? If you do not then what you are saying about election being unfair is inconsistent foolishness.

Romans 9:15-21 is clear about God's sovereignty in who He saves.

Is this person elect? The person's character was one of rebellion against God's will, quarrelsome with the elect, fearfulness to follow Gods direct commands, offered his children for fornication, his children scoffed at his attempts to correct them, was a drunkard, he indulged in incest, was not able to bring any of his family to salvation, his descendants were enemies of God and under His judgement. There is/was no evidence of repentance.

You make the mistake in thinking that God's omniscience is a trait like a human would have. God is SPIRIT therefore does NOT have traits. God IS!
Acts 15:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.


dragonfly said:
'The Bible teaches that all Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestined to Salvation.'


That is one great sentence, Axehead. :)
It also teaches that only the elect will believe. I think you confuse being born again with election. Those that are born again do not necessarily endure to the end being conformed to the image of His Son. Only the elect will endure to the end. 1 John 2:19, Matthew 13:18-23, Mark 4:13-20, Matthew 25:1-13, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 22:1-14, Revelation 3:5.
 

forrestcupp

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lesjude said:
This sounds quite spiritual and logical but is just another perversion of grace. Making a choice means man can do a work to be saved on His own which is NOT grace. To say that God does not elect individuals is contrary to scripture:
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)


11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a]13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
First of all,
Jas 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I'm not saying by any means that we can earn salvation in any way. But accepting is very different than earning. I've reached out to people who needed help with paying a bill before. None of them did anything to earn my help, and none of them did anything toward paying the bill, because it was my money. But some of them accepted my help, and others didn't. The ones who didn't accept my help had to try to figure it out on there own. The ones who did accept my help didn't earn it, they just accepted it. Accepting the free gift of God is not earning it in any way. But the Lord gives us our own will to decide if we want to accept His gracious help and salvation.

And about your scripture. The only thing in the world that proves is that God has a plan for some people before they are even born. It doesn't even hint that God has planned for billions of people to perish. If you read the whole story, then you will remember that much later on, there was a beautiful reconciliation between Jacob and Esau, and Esau displayed grace and mercy to his brother.
 

lesjude

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dragonfly said:
Hi lesjude,

I did read the passage in Romans 3, and note that everything Paul quoted were things that God had said about Israel.

I'm sure you remember that the whole of Israel had agreed to a covenant with God at Sinai.

Therefore, what God is complaining about is not of men who have never heard of Him that do not seek Him, but of men who had grown up having been circumcised as a sign of their descent from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - the fathers whose God they were nationally covenanted to worship - were behaving in the manner the verses describe, neither seeking Him nor obeying His commands.

Your use of the passage in Romans 3 is a classic example of how scripture can be taken out of context.
Do not accuse me of things before you read the scripture.
Romans 3:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.




Furthermore, there is ample OT text to show that the Gentiles were aware of God, but that is another discussion.
Of course they were and choose to continue in sin UNLESS they were elect like Rahab, Namaan, the widow of Zarephath, and many unnamed who sought God in the OT by joining with Israel. Read Romans 1:18-32 which describes the rest.




You are missing - or forgetting - that earlier in the thread you stated that God makes the offer of salvation to everyone. Is that not His grace?
He does this because this will be the basis of His judgement of sinners. Sending them rain and all the other blessings is His grace as well. This does not make them His chosen elect.
His grace affects some people in such a way as they want to receive His offer of salvation. How can that be a work?
I never said this was a work. But if you say they have to choose first on their own without that grace it would be a work. The ONLY ones that receive that grace to "choose" Jesus are the elect predestined before time began.
'
No-one is suggesting that God did not do everything to make it possible for salvation to be a free gift, but surely to obtain the gift one has to receive it?
Yes, and the Bible clearly says the only ones that will receive are the elect. The rest do not want it, believe they need it, or are in the least concerned. They will continue in sin believing the lies other religions tell them including the RCC. Or believe lies of "non religions" like humanism, nationalism and other philosophies. They will believe that all "good" people go to heaven. If you doubt it just read the obituaries and the "personals". The Church encourages and even promotes those myths by preaching the love of God for sinners. Read the messages preached in the book of Acts. No where is God's love for sinners preached. Christ, His work, and the fact they are sinners under God's wrath needing to repent is the message. The elect received it and then endure(e) to the end. MOST did not.


forrestcupp said:
First of all,
Jas 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I'm not saying by any means that we can earn salvation in any way. But accepting is very different than earning. I've reached out to people who needed help with paying a bill before. None of them did anything to earn my help, and none of them did anything toward paying the bill, because it was my money. But some of them accepted my help, and others didn't. The ones who didn't accept my help had to try to figure it out on there own. The ones who did accept my help didn't earn it, they just accepted it. Accepting the free gift of God is not earning it in any way. But the Lord gives us our own will to decide if we want to accept His gracious help and salvation.
No one accepts Christ. If they do it is just intellectual assent not salvation. Jesus accepts His elect sinners and they receive His new life. The result is living Matthew 5, 6 and 7 before God and man, walking in Hebrews 11 faith, and doing Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 and every opportunity the Holy Spirit gives. If these things are not at least "in process" the Bible gives no guarantee of salvation. They can hope for 1 Corinthians 3:15 however.


iv>
And about your scripture. The only thing in the world that proves is that God has a plan for some people before they are even born. It doesn't even hint that God has planned for billions of people to perish. If you read the whole story, then you will remember that much later on, there was a beautiful reconciliation between Jacob and Esau, and Esau displayed grace and mercy to his brother.

Axehead said:
Some people buy into the heresy of "oriiginal sin" (which spawned infant baptism). We are not held accountable for Adam's sin but we suffer because of it. Sin-nature and original sin are very different.

No one is saying that man can save himself. Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark_10:25-27

Yes, the Bible declares that "whosoever will" (anyone) can be saved. It is an act of a person's will to receive the Lord Jesus. Thus, Jesus is being very disingenuous by leading us astray and saying "whosoever" instead of specifically saying "only the elect". And then the Apostles continue the deception in their preaching and we continue the deception by repeating in our preaching and sharing the gospel, "that whosoever calls on the Lord will be saved".

"Calling on the Lord" is also an act of the will. No where do we see in "real" life, the parallel of this Calvinistic teaching that one can receive anything without first engaging his will to take what is being offered.

Titus_2:11 says this: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." Of course to Calvinists, "hidden" in all these scriptures which contain "all men", "whosoever" and others is the unwritten, knowing that Jesus is only speaking to the "Elect". That is what they tell you.

To support their doctrine they will even tell you what the Scriptures are saying, even though they ARE NOT saying it. That is true deception. To support their theology that ONLY CERTAIN sinners will be saved and that GOD chooses who will be saved and man has no role to play in choosing life or death (eternal), they take the smug position that no one knows what the Bible is saying except the Elect.

The Bible teaches that all Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestined to Salvation.

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Calvinism teaches predestination unto salvation and yet the Apostles who learned from Jesus are being deceptive again by saying the following:
Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now, in the following verse, if Jesus only died for all the Elect and not all men, why wouldn't the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostle to write this? Possibly because HE DID DIE FOR ALL MEN?
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Imagine what the world of Christianity would have been like through the ages if the Bible did say what Calvinists teach. If the word "Elect" were in all these scriptures that have given. The power of the Gospel would be rendered anemic. ALL men, everywhere could have no hope, no impetus of knowing whether they were elect or not and all they could do was "hope" that they were elect.

Here is a verse that teachers of "salvation of the elect", love to quote (though they quote it out of context to support their belief system).
Lam_3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

So, what has caused millions of men and women, worldwide to take great pains to preach the Gospel worldwide if all we should do is "quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord?"

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:3-4)

I know, I know. Paul REALLY MEANS "All men who are the elect", right? After a while you can get pretty good at reading the Bible like a Calvinist (or variation of Calvinist) does.

This is such hogwash:
In Calvin's commentary on "Catholic Epistles" on 1st John 3:9, he uses the word "perseverance", clearly stating:


1. "the hearts of the godly are so effectually governed by the Spirit of God, that through an inflexible disposition they follow his guidance." (John Calvin)

2. "the power of the Spirit is so effectual, that it necessarily retains us in continual obedience to righteousness." (John Calvin)

Here is a man that not only teaches against the Bible and turns a blind eye to the dynamics between God and men but does not live in reality. Believers sin, and sometimes they sin egregiously. John Calvin's commentaries on Corinthians should be interesting.

Axehead
You continue to attack Calvinism which was never the issue of the OP.
You confuse born again with election. They are NOT the same. You make false charges that I say election means the gospel does not need to be preached to all men so they can make a freewill choice. The Bible teaches none of those things. You say God loves sinners which you will search in vain to find that statement made in any of the preaching in the book of Acts.
You say the elect cannot have the assurance of salvation. The Bible says they can and why and how they can.

All men can know the truth, will know it, and even accept it intellectually. That is NOT salvation nor any assurance they will receive Jesus as Lord and savior. Many acknowledge Jesus lived and was a "great man". They even attend Christian churches.
Only the elect will heed the admonitions in the Bible of endurance and doing what it says to make their calling and election sure. 1 John tells the elect what they can know and hoe they can know it.
Have you at least started on the rode of making you calling and election sure by being baptized as a believing adult by immersion in Jesus name and received the Acts 2;4 experience with the initial evidence of that experience?

Christ died for all men only in the sense that all will hear but the non elect make a freewill choice to reject Him. This will be the fulfillment of their condemnation i.e. the last straw.
2 Corinthians 2:14-16

New King James Version (NKJV)


14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. 15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
 

dragonfly

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Hi lesjude,

I know Paul begins showing from the middle of Romans 1 through Romans 2 to Romans 3:19, how he sees the Jews and the Gentiles, but the additional verses which he quotes from the OT prior to that verse, which you asked me to read, were not written to the Gentiles.

It seems you use scripture slightly wildly to create refutations of different secular and religious views, which I would suggest is unwise. Scripture can stand all by itself, towering above secular and religious teachings, for the reason that Paul expressed towards the end of 1 Corinthians 1 - that God has decreed that by the wisdom of this world He cannot be known. Anyone who wants to know Him, has to stop their carnal philosophising - Christians included - and seek to know the God who wrote the book, more than knowing the book itself.
 
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forrestcupp

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Let me give you an example of the difference between foreknowledge and controlling things. My little boy likes to walk around with a blanket over his head. If I'm sitting on the other side of the room watching him running straight for the wall, I'll yell at him to stop, but I know that he's going to bust his head against the wall, even before he actually does it. I foreknew that he would bump his head against the wall, but it's his own darned fault. If I actually picked him up and busted his head against the wall of my own will, the result would be the same, but I would be a horrible parent, and probably end up in jail.

God knows who will receive Him, but He doesn't force things one way or the other Himself. There is plenty of scriptural evidence that salvation and forgiveness are conditional and dependent on our taking the step to receive it, and not just God forcing it on some and not others.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Joh 15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.

Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Jos 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

All of these things are conditional upon our response. Plus, if we don't have a free will, then why in the world were there "freewill" offerings in the Old Testament?
 
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lesjude

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dragonfly said:
Hi lesjude,

I know Paul begins showing from the middle of Romans 1 through Romans 2 to Romans 3:19, how he sees the Jews and the Gentiles, but the additional verses which he quotes from the OT prior to that verse, which you asked me to read, were not written to the Gentiles.
No, it was written ABOUT the gentiles and Jews as Paul clearly says. If your method is used anytime the NT quotes the OT it is not referring to anything going on in NT times or applied to current times like Peter's sermon in Acts 2:14-40. NONSENSE!!


It seems you use scripture slightly wildly to create refutations of different secular and religious views, which I would suggest is unwise. Scripture can stand all by itself, towering above secular and religious teachings, for the reason that Paul expressed towards the end of 1 Corinthians 1 - that God has decreed that by the wisdom of this world He cannot be known. Anyone who wants to know Him, has to stop their carnal philosophising - Christians included - and seek to know the God who wrote the book, more than knowing the book itself.
Religious NONSENSE!
Here is what God says about those in Christ:


1 Corinthians 2:9-16
New King James Version (NKJV)


9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[a]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For
what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which
is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of
God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is
from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to
us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[b] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[c] But we have the mind of Christ.
There are conditions and a cost to be paid to receive these things. Here is some of the cost:
Romans 12:1-2

New King James Version (NKJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you
present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.



forrestcupp said:
Let me give you an example of the difference between foreknowledge and controlling things. My little boy likes to walk around with a blanket over his head. If I'm sitting on the other side of the room watching him running straight for the wall, I'll yell at him to stop, but I know that he's going to bust his head against the wall, even before he actually does it. I foreknew that he would bump his head against the wall, but it's his own darned fault. If I actually picked him up and busted his head against the wall of my own will, the result would be the same, but I would be a horrible parent, and probably end up in jail.
God cares for His elect even in the womb because He chose them before time began.



God knows who will receive Him, but He doesn't force things one way or the other Himself. There is plenty of scriptural evidence that salvation and forgiveness are conditional and dependent on our taking the step to receive it, and not just God forcing it on some and not others.
Nonsense. God draws His elect, breaks down the thought patterns that oppose the gospel, angels have charge over them, Jesus intercedes for them as well as Christians who God shows to, and He makes sure they hear the gospel at the perfect time. They do make a "freewill" choice but only because God has done all that and more.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Joh 15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.

Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Jos 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

All of these things are conditional upon our response. Plus, if we don't have a free will, then why in the world were there "freewill" offerings in the Old Testament?
Only the predestined elect will respond to the call. The all is the general call of the gospel given to everyone because no one but God knows who they are.
Jesus is clearly addressing His predestined elect disciples with the exception of Judas who was predestined from before time began .to do what He did. There are many who walk with Christ i.e. are born again who fall away because they we not elect. Only the elect will endure to the end.
 

dragonfly

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Hi lesjude,

I don't think you understood my post. Everything you wrote in reply is fine, but it didn't take account of the reason I referred to 1 Corinthians 1:19 - 21a.
 

KingJ

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God NEVER left Jesus on the cross. The Godhead cannot be divided up.
You just refuse to 'get it' don't you. So God did not leave Jesus at the mercy of the devil? The devil did not have his way with Jesus? I am not disputing the Godhead. You are more then free to replace Jesus with God. ie. God the Son did not ''''sacrifice'''' Himself for us????

lesjude said:
You make the mistake in thinking that God's omniscience is a trait like a human would have. God is SPIRIT therefore does NOT have traits. God IS!
Acts 15:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.
I can accept that. I am SO GLAD to hear you say God '''IS''. AMEN I agree!!! Now do YOU accept God IS impartial ??????????? God is partial = satanism. God is impartial = Christianity ;). Please go read and meditate on this simple bible study before replying to me - http://www.wordsoftruth.net/godisimpartial.htm.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 

lesjude

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dragonfly said:
Hi lesjude,

I don't think you understood my post. Everything you wrote in reply is fine, but it didn't take account of the reason I referred to 1 Corinthians 1:19 - 21a.
I do not know why you cited it but ONLY the elect chosen before time began will believe. The rest will only see the gospel as foolishness or a stumbling block and freely decide to go on in sin.
 

forrestcupp

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If God can choose anyone He wants and they will be forced to end up with Him, why did He choose for billions of people to go to hell?
 
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lesjude

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forrestcupp said:
If God can choose anyone He wants and they will be forced to end up with Him, why did He choose for billions of people to go to hell?
The elect are drawn by God not forced. They freely choose Him because of His work in their lives they do not even realize. However if you look back on your life before salvation you will see many examples of God's work. I can.
1 John 5:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 4:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 We love Him[a] because He first loved us.

You have it backwards. If God did not elect some then none would be saved. Romans 3:9-19.