Does God Love Sinners?

williemac · Mar 12, 2013

Axehead said:
yes, "us" does mean that. Thank you for agreeing that the "grace of God has appeared to all men".

Yes, we must endure till the end. I don't agree with one time salvation tickets.

Then you don't agree with Heb.6:1-6. If you care to read and meditate on its meaning, you will see that salvation happens only one time. The passage says that if one were to fall away, it would be impossible to renew him again to repentance (meaning change of mind). This is why the writer said that it was unneccesary to revisit the foundation.

The enduring to the end is not about behavior, but rather, faith. However, This passage in Heb.6 does not say that one cannot fall away. But it does indeed say that salvation is a one time ticket. I guess, not to change the subject, but we ought to think hard about just what it would take for a person to actually lose his "salvation". Jesus made a promise in John 5:24, that through faith in Him, we will not see judgment, but have passed from death to life. Faith is that which is and always has been under attack.

O, and yes. God loves sinners. (Agape, not Phileos). I can't fathom how this thread is still rambling on.

lesjude · Mar 12, 2013

KingJ said:
1. I want to hear you say that God is partial. I want you to hear and read yourself conflicting 100% with James 2. Your English comprehension skills with scripture on God electing and destining is terrible as many have clearly pointed out.

2. Yes and every part of me rejects everything you believe and teach on healing and salvation.

God is "partial" from the humanist point of view. Jesus was partial to Peter, James, and John Matthew 17:1-13. Jesus called Judas a devil to his face John 6:71. He told a large number of His disciples who decided not to follow Him any longer they could not anyway John 6:65-66. God drowned all but eight in the flood. God only ever choose one nation out of all the tribes and nations of the earth.The rest died in their sins. He ordered the extermination of all the "ites" in Canaan.
God says He hates, despises, laughs at, spurns, abhors, holds in derision sinners as well as being an abomination to Him.
In James 2 here is what is referred to:

James 2:6-8
New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well;

Here is what God says about the rich:

James 5:1-6
New King James Version (NKJV)

Rich Oppressors Will Be Judged
5 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your
gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness
against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up
treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed
the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by
fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of
the Lord of Sabaoth.[a] 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as[b] in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Which is exactly why they should not be favored.

Matthew 19:23-24
New King James Version (NKJV)

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And
again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

AND

Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]

Axehead · Mar 12, 2013

If someone is backslidden and repeatedly falls under the control of the powers of darkness, and just always seems to be weak and easily led astray, do you just cast him off as not part of the "Elect"? God hates sin but loves the sinner. Jesus Christ and the Apostles demonstrate that.

When men stand before God at the Great White Throne judgment do you envision God saying to some men, "You were predetermined for hell, so don't even try to say anything. You were just a useful tool in my hand, so don't try to say anything, it won't make any difference?" How incredibly cruel is that?

If the Elected cannot be lost, then why do they need an Advocate to plead on their behalf?

No, I don't believe the Scriptures teach that.

The more I think about Total Depravity, which is the Total Inability to make any free choices towards the initiating act of the Holy Spirit, the more it smells of the Putrid One.

In udder woids, if you did not understand that, they are saying that man does not play any role, based on his own god-given and grace enabled WILL to say "Yes, Lord, I will receive your gift of salvation. Please Lord Jesus, come into my life, I gladly come under your authority and turn from my wicked ways."

No man will be able to accuse God at the Great White Throne judgment and be justified in his accusation of an unfair, and unjust God.

I'm done. That's all.

Shalom,

Axehead

lesjude · Mar 12, 2013

Axehead said:
If someone is backslidden and repeatedly falls under the control of the powers of darkness, and just always seems to be weak and easily led astray, do you just cast him off as not part of the "Elect"? God hates sin but loves the sinner. Jesus Christ and the Apostles demonstrate that.

Click to expand...

I have repeated over and over with scripture what should be done. Do you not read the Bible? 1 John 5:16-17 but keep in mind 1 John 2:19, Acts 16:31, John 15:1-8 to list a few. Ministry to all should be led by the Holy Spirit. It saves a lot of wasted time and resources. He is NOT a humanist.
The only ones that qualify for your trite cliche are the elect. AGAIN there is no message preached in the Bible where anyone says God loves sinners.

>
When men stand before God at the Great White Throne judgment do you envision God saying to some men, "You were predetermined for hell, so don't even try to say anything. You were just a useful tool in my hand, so don't try to say anything, it won't make any difference?" How incredibly cruel is that?

You do not grasp the fact that they made FREEWILL choices to do as they did.
Romans 9:20-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

If the Elected cannot be lost, then why do they need an Advocate to plead on their behalf?

No, I don't believe the Scriptures teach that

Ask God because it it His plan. It is one way that the elect from God's side are assured of endurance because the devil hates us. He could care less about sinners already in his kingdom.

The more I think about Total Depravity, which is the Total Inability to make any free choices towards the initiating act of the Holy Spirit, the more it smells of the Putrid One.

In udder woids, if you did not understand that, they are saying that man does not play any role, based on his own god-given and grace enabled WILL to say "Yes, Lord, I will receive your gift of salvation. Please Lord Jesus, come into my life, I gladly come under your authority and turn from my wicked ways."

I have NEVER said man plays no role. The elect must hear and respond to the gospel. They have no idea at the time it is God giving the grace to do it. If it is any other way it is NOT grace because man is doing something on his own apart from grace to be saved. Those who do not receive that grace make a freewill choice to reject the gospel and could not care less.
Do you know what grace is? Do you know how God's grace functions?
Do you know what humanism is and that it is an abomination to God?

No man will be able to accuse God at the Great White Throne judgment and be justified in his accusation of an unfair, and unjust God.

I'm done. That's all.

Shalom,

Axehead

Nor in any other judgement. ALL His judgements were made, finished, over and done with before time began sovereignly including who were the elect.

forrestcupp said:
So according to 1 Tim. 2:3-4, God desires ALL men to be saved. And you admit that God knows that ALL men will not be saved. So then logically, either God doesn't choose who is saved, or He's not very powerful because He wants them all to be saved, but they're not all saved. Remember, there's a big difference between God's knowing, and His making the choice for us.

And you've never answered my question. Obviously, you don't equate being born again with being elect. So do you believe that anyone in the world can be born again, or is it only the select few that God chooses that are capable of being born again?

The predestined elect is the ALL men which God chose in Christ before time began.
Our families and loved ones can be claimed by faith Acts 16:31 so in that sense they are elect. John 15:1-8 says believers will have much fruit that remains but there is a cost to be paid for both. The key is Hebrews 11 and Mark 11:24 faith and being led by the Holy Spirit in all ministry.
Some will not be born again because they are reprobate from the womb. Others are literal children of demon angels and are also reprobate.
So no, all cannot be "born again".

Axehead · Mar 12, 2013

lesjude said:
You do not grasp the fact that they made FREEWILL choices to do as they did.

Don't you see the conflict in what you are communicating to people? Maybe you believe it correctly, but you are not communicating it correctly.

Out of one side of your mouth, you say men are predetermined for destruction. They have no choice.

Out of the other side of your mouth, you say they willingly (freewill) chose destruction. They have choice.

Where is the freewill in them being designed for hell?

Say what???? :blink:

Yes, I read my Bible. Explain your contradiction of the Word of God.

lesjude · Mar 12, 2013

Axehead said:
Don't you see the conflict in what you are communicating to people? Maybe you believe it correctly, but you are not communicating it correctly.

Out of one side of your mouth, you say men are predetermined for destruction. They have no choice.

Out of the other side of your mouth, you say they willingly (freewill) chose destruction. They have choice.

Where is the freewill in them being designed for hell?

Say what???? :blink:

Yes, I read my Bible. Explain your contradiction of the Word of God.

You miss the point that unless God had predetermined some for salvation NONE would be saved. They have no idea they are choosing destruction and ALL have their own view as to what happens when they die. None of those views includes eternity in torment. All the non elect scoff at that idea.

Axehead · Mar 12, 2013

lesjude said:
You miss the point that unless God had predetermined some for salvation NONE would be saved.

Oh, I got it. Makes perfect sense! And if God did not predetermine some for destruction, NONE would be lost.

We can't have that now, can we?

lesjude said:
They have no idea they are choosing destruction and ALL have their own view as to what happens when they die. None of those views includes eternity in torment. All the non elect scoff at that idea.

So, some have no idea they are choosing life and some have no idea they are choosing destruction.

Let's break this down:

1. None would be saved unless they were predetermined for life.
2. None would be lost unless they were predetermined for destruction.
3. Those who choose life have no idea they are choosing life.
4. Those who choose death have no idea they are choosing death.

That leaves me with only one question then: Why didn't God predetermine EVERYONE for LIFE if, if, if, LIFE or DEATH is not our choosing (at least we don't know it is). Boy, are we all in for a big surprise? We just don't know what we're choosing!!

aspen · Mar 12, 2013

yeah, Calvin's view of predestination is a total mess - sorry lesjude

lesjude · Mar 13, 2013

So, some have no idea they are choosing life and some have no idea they are choosing destruction.

The elect are aware they are choosing life.

Let's break this down:

1. None would be saved unless they were predetermined for life.

This is what the Bible teaches.

2. None would be lost unless they were predetermined for destruction.

No, all would be lost by a freewill choice.

3. Those who choose life have no idea they are choosing life.

No, they are aware of choosing life .

4. Those who choose death have no idea they are choosing death.

They reject the gospel and have no idea nor do they care they have chosen death.

That leaves me with only one question then: Why didn't God
predetermine EVERYONE for LIFE if, if, if, LIFE or DEATH is not our
choosing (at least we don't know it is). Boy, are we all in for a big
surprise? We just don't know what we're choosing!!

Those that choose life know they have chosen and are choosing life when they do it John 6:68-69. Life is a freewill choice by the elect by GRACE, not because they made the choice knowingly without grace. They could not. No one can. Only the elect receive that grace.
I do not know why God did not predetermine all to receive grace for salvation. I think one reason might be that some are the offspring of fallen angels mating with the women of the earth. 1 John 2:18 and Genesis 6:1-7
The book of 1 John is full of things a Christian can know about his salvation and how they can know it. The elect will not be surprised but others will be: Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 22:1-14, Matthew 25:1-13.

forrestcupp · Mar 13, 2013

lesjude said:
The predestined elect is the ALL men which God chose in Christ before time began.
Our families and loved ones can be claimed by faith Acts 16:31 so in that sense they are elect. John 15:1-8 says believers will have much fruit that remains but there is a cost to be paid for both. The key is Hebrews 11 and Mark 11:24 faith and being led by the Holy Spirit in all ministry.
Some will not be born again because they are reprobate from the womb. Others are literal children of demon angels and are also reprobate.
So no, all cannot be "born again".

You make it really hard to get the answer out of you that I want. So let me try to be as precise and to the point as I can. Do you believe that some people who are not part of "The Elect" can be born again?

Axehead said:
Don't you see the conflict in what you are communicating to people? Maybe you believe it correctly, but you are not communicating it correctly.

Out of one side of your mouth, you say men are predetermined for destruction. They have no choice.

Out of the other side of your mouth, you say they willingly (freewill) chose destruction. They have choice.

Where is the freewill in them being designed for hell?

Say what???? :blink:

Yes, I read my Bible. Explain your contradiction of the Word of God.

I think he's basically saying that from our perspective, it appears to us that we are making a choice from our free will, but in reality, God made the choice for us and as a result, there is nothing we can do outside of God's choice.

aspen · Mar 13, 2013

sounds more like molism than Calvinism. The very act of God's preknowledge of an individual's freewill choice destines them for heaven or hell.

Axehead · Mar 13, 2013

aspen2 said:
sounds more like molism than Calvinism. The very act of God's preknowledge of an individual's freewill choice destines them for heaven or hell.

So true. And then suicide by those destined for glory or destined for hell should not be an issue.

Remember the Jim Jones commune in Guyana?
He talked 900 people into drinking poison during communion and they all died (cyanide). I wonder how many we're of the elect.

With the logic we have been hearing some of those 900 people could be part of the elect. Gives a whole new meaning to natural disasters and accidents where many people die.

lesjude · Mar 13, 2013

forrestcupp said:
You make it really hard to get the answer out of you that I want. So let me try to be as precise and to the point as I can. Do you believe that some people who are not part of "The Elect" can be born again?

Click to expand...

So no, all cannot be "born again". Yes, people who are not elect can be born again. There are tares, those that fulfill the parable of the sower, and those in Revelation 3:5 and 1John 2:19. All were "born again" but did not endure

iv> I think he's basically saying that from our perspective, it appears to us that we are making a choice from our free will, but in reality, God made the choice for us and as a result, there is nothing we can do outside of God's choice.

Axehead · Mar 13, 2013

lesjude said:
The elect are aware they are choosing life.

You differentiate between the born-again and the elect and sometimes the born-again are not saved.

So, maybe the "elect" that think they are choosing life, are really the born-again, that aren't going to endure.

In other words, according to your logic, the elect and the born-again are aware they are choosing life, but only the elect will make it. All the elect are born-again, but some that are born-again won't necessarily be the elect (endure until the end).

I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you mean. Is my understanding of what you are saying correct (in this respect)?

JB_Reformed Baptist · Mar 13, 2013

lesjude said:
Does God Love Sinners?

What does the Bible say? No person by a free will choice will ever
choose the foolishness of Christianity which the Bible clearly says: 1
Corinthians 1:23-24, John 3:19-21, John 6:37 and 65. However that there
is one God is revealed in His creation as Acts 14:17 and Romans
chapters 1 and 2 say. This is all that God requires to judge them.

IF anyone is elect by God's predestined choice he will hear the gospel
and receive Jesus. It may even be by a dream, vision, or other
supernatural means. God loves His elect and all of them will choose to
receive Jesus.

Many believe that God looked down eternity and chose the ones that would
make a freewill choice to receive salvation. This cannot be true
because it would mean that salvation is not by grace and man can do
something on his own to receive it. According to the scripture salvation
is by grace through faith. It has to be understood that if God had not
predestined a FEW to be saved NONE would ever be. Clearly the Bible
teaches that humanity would never "freely" choose the foolishness of
Christianity.

God does not love sinners in the sense that there is anything about
them or their lives to love. They disgust Him. In fact He drowned ALL
of them at one point. God's very nature is love so he gave them 120
years of Noah preaching and building an ark for them to repent or even
build their own ark. God will again judge sinners at the close of this
age with fire.

Christianity today has a false message in that they tell the sinner
God loves them. This gives them the false impression that there is
something about them that God does not hate and condemn. The truth is
God's nature is love so He sent Jesus to make it possible for sinners
to be made righteous, forsake sin, and be loved by God. There is a BIG difference. Sin and sinners disgust God.

This false message of God's love for sinners has had predictable
results. Unrepentant sodomites have been accepted as Christians and
organized "churches".

.

dragonfly · Mar 13, 2013

I would think a more appropriate question might be. "How does GOD reveal his love toward sinners".

This way?

Romans 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

lesjude · Mar 13, 2013

Axehead said:
You differentiate between the born-again and the elect and sometimes the born-again are not saved.

Click to expand...

Salvation is walk of obedience, holiness and the death of the self life. Being "born again" is the first step of this walk. No one can say a professing Christian is not elect. There are many verses in the Bible that say what a walk of salvation will look like however. It seems you do have it correct that the elect are born again and will endure to the end. One can be born again, not be elect, therefore will not endure.

dragonfly said:
This way?

Romans 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yes, however this is made reference to the saved in the church not to all sinners. You will never find a message addressed to the unsaved in the NT that states God loves sinners.

Axehead said:
So true. And then suicide by those destined for glory or destined for hell should not be an issue.

Remember the Jim Jones commune in Guyana?
He talked 900 people into drinking poison during communion and they all died (cyanide). I wonder how many we're of the elect.

With the logic we have been hearing some of those 900 people could be part of the elect. Gives a whole new meaning to natural disasters and accidents where many people die.

Suicide is a sin that is difficult to repent of. All that anyone can say of a professing Christian or anyone else who does this is God will treat them with perfect fairness. There are numerous accounts of those who attempted suicide and God supernaturally intervened to preserve them. Some say all suicides go to "hell" automatically. I do not see this in the Bible.

williemac · Mar 13, 2013

We need to get out of our heads and get into our hearts, and especially into God's heart. The God Whom I know, love, and Who loves Me, loves sinners. What is the fruit of the Spirit? ...Love. Are we expected to love only those who are lovable? God loves, not because the person is lovable, but because God IS love. Love does because love is.

KingJ · Mar 14, 2013

lesjude said:
God is "partial" from the humanist point of view. Jesus was partial to Peter, James, and John Matthew 17:1-13. Jesus called Judas a devil to his face John 6:71. He told a large number of His disciples who decided not to follow Him any longer they could not anyway John 6:65-66. God drowned all but eight in the flood. God only ever choose one nation out of all the tribes and nations of the earth.The rest died in their sins. He ordered the extermination of all the "ites" in Canaan.
God says He hates, despises, laughs at, spurns, abhors, holds in derision sinners as well as being an abomination to Him.
In James 2 here is what is referred to:
James 2:6-8
New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well;

Here is what God says about the rich:
James 5:1-6
New King James Version (NKJV)

Rich Oppressors Will Be Judged
5 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your
gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness
against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up
treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed
the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by
fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of
the Lord of Sabaoth.[a] 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as[b] in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Which is exactly why they should not be favored.

Matthew 19:23-24
New King James Version (NKJV)

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And
again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

AND
Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]

''Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated''' AND James 2 (partiality IS A SIN), Acts 10:34 (God's impartiality is a truth you NEED to perceive!!) and Rom 2:11.

As all calvinists do, you down-play James 2 and miss scripture stating it is a sin to be partial

. Scripture cannot be clearer! Do you know the dictionary definition of ''partial''?

Show me a scripture that literally says God is partial. You need to supply that as I have supplied scripture that literally says God is not and that it is a sin. We know the story of Esau and Jacob and can understand how God would come to that conclusion.

Ugh, actually I am done. Partiality in any form = satanism. Impartiality = Christianity.

Acts 10:34 ''Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons'':

Lesjude I pray you perceive it too, before you lose your faith.

aspen · Mar 14, 2013

actually Essua and His descendents ended up recieving many blessings from God. Just because his earthly father only had one blessing doesn't mean his father in heaven only has one blessing.

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