Harpazo-Rapture Saulos-Paulos

Retrobyter · Mar 19, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Unless one dies to self the same abides alone and does not bear the fruit of the kingdom of heaven:

John 12:24-26 KJV
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 KJV
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Therefore it does not speak of the physical death, of the physical body, at the end of what the natural man calls "life" ...

That is VERY misleading and, frankly, WRONG! 1 Corinthians 15:35-38 certainly DOES speak of the physical death! Are you trying to say that Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) did not physically die?! And yet, our death in this resurrection chapter is likened to HIS! He's talking here about a LITERAL, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION BODY! Paul is not talking "spiritually"; he has made a quite eloquent treatise in this chapter on the reality of the resurrection!

daq · Mar 19, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

That is VERY misleading and, frankly, WRONG! 1 Corinthians 15:35-38 certainly DOES speak of the physical death! Are you trying to say that Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) did not physically die?! And yet, our death in this resurrection chapter is likened to HIS! He's talking here about a LITERAL, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION BODY! Paul is not talking "spiritually"; he has made a quite eloquent treatise in this chapter on the reality of the resurrection!

I have already clearly stated to you several times, in other places of this forum, that Yeshua died PHYSICALLY to take upon himself the penalty of death in our place. Are you now attempting to falsely insinuate something against your brother which you clearly know to be untrue? Character assassination is indeed one of the more perfectly refined techniques of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes. As for being born from above; how can you claim to be so when you apparently know nothing about the process of this immersion? You must be baptized-immersed into Messiah, and that is a baptism-immersion into his death, rather than simply reading about him in a book and acquiring a head knowledge. You must not only believe his words but you must also live and walk them, with and in him:

John 11:23-26 ASV
23. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
26. and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Matthew 10:32-39
32. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39. He that findeth his soul-psuchen shall apollumi-destroy it: and he that apollumi-destroyeth his soul-psuchen for my sake shall find it.

Original Strong's Ref. #5590
Romanized psuche
Pronounced psoo-khay'
from GSN5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from GSN4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from GSN2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew HSN5315, HSN7307 and HSN2416):
KJV--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Original Strong's Ref. #622
Romanized apollumi
Pronounced ap-ol'-loo-mee
from GSN0575 and the base of GSN3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:
KJV--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Matthew 16:22-28
22. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him aparneomai-utterly disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Original Strong's Ref. #533
Romanized aparneomai
Pronounced ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
from GSN0575 and GSN0720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:
KJV--deny.

You want to accuse others, especially myself, of not being "literal enough" in their understandings of the Scripture but what you fail to realize is that I take the statements and doctrines of the Master more literal and concrete than you or any of your accuser friends. If indeed you had the Spirit of Life from above then you should have already begun the transformation of cutting off the "old man" nature who is your own enemy from within. Why then do you exhibit no such signs of any of this beginning transformation in any of your discourse? Beware of false prophet voices telling you that you have "already arrived" or have already "obtained" when in fact you have not yet arrived at that Great Shabbat rest:

Hebrews 10:36-39 KJV
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

And what is "the will of God" which we must first perform before we might receive the promise?

1 Thessalonians 4:2-6 KJV
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

NO SANCTIFICATION ON YOUR PART ~ NO PROMISE!!

Retrobyter · Mar 22, 2013

Shalom, daq.

daq said:
I have already clearly stated to you several times, in other places of this forum, that Yeshua died PHYSICALLY to take upon himself the penalty of death in our place. Are you now attempting to falsely insinuate something against your brother which you clearly know to be untrue? Character assassination is indeed one of the more perfectly refined techniques of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes. As for being born from above; how can you claim to be so when you apparently know nothing about the process of this immersion? You must be baptized-immersed into Messiah, and that is a baptism-immersion into his death, rather than simply reading about him in a book and acquiring a head knowledge. You must not only believe his words but you must also live and walk them, with and in him:

John 11:23-26 ASV
23. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
26. and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Matthew 10:32-39
32. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39. He that findeth his soul-psuchen shall apollumi-destroy it: and he that apollumi-destroyeth his soul-psuchen for my sake shall find it.

Original Strong's Ref. #5590
Romanized psuche
Pronounced psoo-khay'
from GSN5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from GSN4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from GSN2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew HSN5315, HSN7307 and HSN2416):
KJV--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Original Strong's Ref. #622
Romanized apollumi
Pronounced ap-ol'-loo-mee
from GSN0575 and the base of GSN3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:
KJV--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Matthew 16:22-28
22. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him aparneomai-utterly disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25. For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Original Strong's Ref. #533
Romanized aparneomai
Pronounced ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
from GSN0575 and GSN0720; to deny utterly, i.e. disown, abstain:
KJV--deny.

You want to accuse others, especially myself, of not being "literal enough" in their understandings of the Scripture but what you fail to realize is that I take the statements and doctrines of the Master more literal and concrete than you or any of your accuser friends. If indeed you had the Spirit of Life from above then you should have already begun the transformation of cutting off the "old man" nature who is your own enemy from within. Why then do you exhibit no such signs of any of this beginning transformation in any of your discourse? Beware of false prophet voices telling you that you have "already arrived" or have already "obtained" when in fact you have not yet arrived at that Great Shabbat rest:

Hebrews 10:36-39 KJV
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

And what is "the will of God" which we must first perform before we might receive the promise?

1 Thessalonians 4:2-6 KJV
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

NO SANCTIFICATION ON YOUR PART ~ NO PROMISE!!

This really bothers me on a number of fronts. First, I was not attacking you in any way. I was trying to get you to understand the simple reality of the resurrection body that the Messiah has and we will acquire when He returns. We don't go off to heaven when we die like going off to some Never-never Land!

The Messiah is returning HERE on THIS earth! The latter verses of 1 Corinthians 15 are clear about the body that we will receive, IF one understands the true meaning of "spiritual!"

Also, don't get the cart before the horse. Sanctification comes AFTER justification by God! First, one must be justified to become "born again" into His family. Then, once one is reborn, he can be matured and sanctified - made holy by the Spirit of God within him! I hope you're not trying to become holy so that you are then acceptable to God. That's backward! We first become acceptable to God - accepted in the Beloved - and THEN we have both the power and the life to grow into the image of the Messiah! To try to do this on our own to become accepted is futile!

Sanctification IS important and is crucial to the life of a believer, but a person must first become a believer before attempting to be sanctified! It is the RUACH HAQODESH ELOHIYM, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who sanctifies us! Therefore, He must do His work first before any of our works can be meaningful! We don't labor to be accepted; we labor BECAUSE we are accepted! Our good deeds AFTER our justification by God are done out of the LOVE that we have for Him, not to gain some acceptance by Him!

Keep it simple, brother. The "Will of God" or "God's Will" is simply "what God wants!" Sure, God wants us to be "sanctified and to abstain from fornication" but that means to be HOLY and set apart for Him and to stay away from sex outside of marriage! No one should want to "go beyond and defraud a brother" or to step out of bounds and victimize a brother (or sister)! Why? Simply because that puts us on the "receiving end" of God's avenging retribution - not a good place to be! That doesn't mean that we're "lost" or "going to hell," but it DOES mean that we become the "wolf" in the story and not the "lamb!" The Messiah of God, who represents God in all matters of Judgment when He comes, WILL set matters right! One doesn't want to be the "wolf" when He's rescuing His "lambs!" God doesn't "send His children to hell," but He DOES discipline them!

May YHWH bless you in your studies!

daq · Mar 23, 2013

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

This really bothers me on a number of fronts. First, I was not attacking you in any way. I was trying to get you to understand the simple reality of the resurrection body that the Messiah has and we will acquire when He returns. We don't go off to heaven when we die like going off to some Never-never Land!

The Messiah is returning HERE on THIS earth! The latter verses of 1 Corinthians 15 are clear about the body that we will receive, IF one understands the true meaning of "spiritual!"

Also, don't get the cart before the horse. Sanctification comes AFTER justification by God! First, one must be justified to become "born again" into His family. Then, once one is reborn, he can be matured and sanctified - made holy by the Spirit of God within him! I hope you're not trying to become holy so that you are then acceptable to God. That's backward! We first become acceptable to God - accepted in the Beloved - and THEN we have both the power and the life to grow into the image of the Messiah! To try to do this on our own to become accepted is futile!

Sanctification IS important and is crucial to the life of a believer, but a person must first become a believer before attempting to be sanctified! It is the RUACH HAQODESH ELOHIYM, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD who sanctifies us! Therefore, He must do His work first before any of our works can be meaningful! We don't labor to be accepted; we labor BECAUSE we are accepted! Our good deeds AFTER our justification by God are done out of the LOVE that we have for Him, not to gain some acceptance by Him!

Keep it simple, brother. The "Will of God" or "God's Will" is simply "what God wants!" Sure, God wants us to be "sanctified and to abstain from fornication" but that means to be HOLY and set apart for Him and to stay away from sex outside of marriage! No one should want to "go beyond and defraud a brother" or to step out of bounds and victimize a brother (or sister)! Why? Simply because that puts us on the "receiving end" of God's avenging retribution - not a good place to be! That doesn't mean that we're "lost" or "going to hell," but it DOES mean that we become the "wolf" in the story and not the "lamb!" The Messiah of God, who represents God in all matters of Judgment when He comes, WILL set matters right! One doesn't want to be the "wolf" when He's rescuing His "lambs!" God doesn't "send His children to hell," but He DOES discipline them!

May YHWH bless you in your studies!

When a person pays no attention to what others have to say, ignores the Scriptures put forth, and then asks insinuating questions such as you just put forth above when you asked: "Are you trying to say that Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) did not physically die?" it is offensive to say the least; especially knowing that I have already put forth to you in other places of the forum my sincere belief that Yeshua died physically on the Cross in our behalf. This really bothers me also on a number of fronts and affronts. As for the rest it is you that has "put the cart before the horse" (again your words) and it is not me you dispute with but rather manifold Scripture passages. Every joint-heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant and is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. The same day is that which no man knows except the Father only. It is much like a Bar Mitzvah when a child becomes a son, a man, (andres-aner). When we first believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE unto/until the day of the redemption of the purchased possession. YOU are the "purchased possession" if indeed you were serious in your repentance when you first believed, (God knows your heart from that day and whether you were serious or not). The Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of this inheritance, like an "earnest-money down payment" on the purchase of a house, and YOU are the house. And when the Master comes he will thoroughly purge and cleanse his house before the Most High takes full possession of the property. If we are created beings then indeed we are PROPERTY and therefore truly we are not our own. Be careful that you are not claiming to be something you are not, thinking yourself to have already "arrived" when perhaps you have not, for it appears in your understanding of the Gospel that you seem to have skipped over the need for any of the necessary self cleansing and sanctifying which is required on your part before you will truly inherit the Promise and the Rest which comes with it.

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

When "the purchased possession" has been redeemed from the earth then shall a son be born into the kingdom, (being neither male nor female but like the messengers of heaven). He that endures unto the End shall be saved. And then shall the tabernacle of God be with the man, and the man shall be clothed from on high, and time shall be no more; and again I say that according to the Scripture all this must needs become reality BEFORE the physical death at the end of what the natural man calls "life"

The Eunuch ~ A Dream
After a night of sweet sleep upon my floor roll a dream arrived at the end. Having no bed to lay my head sometimes can make the pillow like a stone in the clouds of heaven. As I began to awaken, (so I thought in the dream but none the less it was the dream) I found an arm, having been severed at the elbow, and laying dead above my head upon the pillow of stone wherein my mind had found its rest this night. In shock and horror I grabbed the severed arm to inspect it and there was no blood to be found, nor any mess of fluids; for it had long been severed, and was completely dried out and dead. And I began to wonder who might do such a horrible thing? And who might be lurking and watching me? And what was the warning they were sending to me? And then I truly began to fear and tremble in the midst of this dream as I suddenly realized that some one must have been in my room in this night. So I cried out to the Most High, and said, O Lord, help me to understand what this means! Why has this severed arm that is long time dead, completely withered and dried up, been left resting on my stony pillow above my head? And who would do such a thing? And then I began to awaken from the dream, and I began to realize that one of my arms had been put to sleep for a lack of circulation and was completely dead an numb. And there was I left laying, holding with my other hand my own arm, when it shook itself back to life. It had been wrapped around above my head on the pillow of stone as I slept, and the circulation to it was clean dried up and it was cut off, and it had become a member of the dream. And a voice came unto me, and said; Did I not say that I would bring with me those asleep in My Son when I come? Behold, you have your arm which you beheaded long ago because of offenses; even according to My Word, even the Word of My Son. The arm was dead, yet now it lives; let no man defraud his brother in this matter, for these are members of My Household and you are not your own; and I am the avenger of all such. Neither let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."

And I remembered some of the passages from whence these words derive:

Isaiah 56:1-7
1. Thus saith YHWH, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself unto YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4. For thus saith YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves unto YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Matthew 18:8-10
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 19:11-12
11. But he said unto them, Not everyone can receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from the womb of their mother: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Matthew 24:45-50
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Mark 13:31-37
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Revelation 20:4
4. Kai eidon thronous kai ekathisan ep autous kai krima edothe autois, kai tas psuchas ton pepelekismenon dia ten marturian Iesou kai dia ton logon tou Theou kai hoitines ou prosekunesan to therion oude ten eikona autou kai ouk elabon to charagma epito metopon kai epi ten cheira auton. Kai ezesan kai ebasileusan meta tou Christou chilia ete.
4. And I saw thrones, and they were seated, and judgment was given unto them: even the souls of them having been beheaded due to the testimony of Yeshua, and due to the Word of the Theou, and which not had bowed to the beast, neither to the image of him, neither had received the mark upon their foreheads and upon the hands of them. And they lived and reigned with the Christou a thousand years.

The man is "the house" and the house is divided into different "apartments" or compartments. Everything is personified including sin and evil. The lesser "members" of our households are likened to "brothers" and "little ones" whom we are given charge to watch over and protect. However, the evil which dwells in the flesh desires to take control over these little ones so as to use them for various iniquities. Let every man understand therefore that we are set in charge of the house in which we dwell while the Master is away: "Sin lieth at the door; and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him!"

Matthew 18:10 KJV
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Therefore Paul says to the Thessalonians that "the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified" because these things concern the body, which is the house, which is the temple of the Creator, and is not our own. Every part of the body belongs to the Father; even down to the five virgin toes on the right foot and the five on the left foot, ("thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path") and every separate "member" of the body has a "messenger" that in heaven does always behold the face of the Father which is in heaven. We are as keepers put in charge over these "lesser members of the household" while the Master is away in a far journey. We are likened to "the porter of the house" which has the keys and watches the door until the owner of the house returns, (Mark 13:34). This is why Paul states to the Thessalonians in the so-called "Rapture" passage that these things concerning sanctification and knowing how to possess our vessels are by the commandments of Yeshua himself:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-14 KJV
1. Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9. But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11. And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12. That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Let not sin have dominion in your mortal body: PUT HIM TO DEATH!

Romans 6:12-13 KJV
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 8:11-14 KJV
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Colossians 3:2-6 KJV
2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6. For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

The "unruly members" of the household which the patient faithful have been forced to put to sleep, (mortify, slay, put to death) will be restored anew from the Father, in the times of refreshing, when all things shall be made new and wherein dwells righteousness. This again is the same "will of God" the Father which the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews likewise speaks:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Therefore part yourself asunder, in twain, for the son is not born into the Kingdom until the "old man" is slain.

daq · Aug 11, 2013

The Gospel of Paulos is based upon the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua Christou:

Romans 16:25-27 KJV
25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Romans 16:25 TUA
25. To de dunameno humas sterixai kata toeuangelion mou kai to kerugma Iesou Christou, kata apokalupsin musteriou chronois aioniois sesigemenou,

"kai to kerugma Iesou Christou, kata apokalupsin musteriou"
"and the proclamation of Yeshua Christou, according to the mysterious Revelation"

Revelation 1:1 KJV
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:1 TUA
1. Apokalupsis Iesou Christou hen edoken auto hoTheos deixai tois doulois autou ha dei genesthai en tachei. Kai esemanen aposteilas dia tou angelou autou to doulo autou Ioanne,

"Apokalupsis Iesou Christou"
"The Revelation of Yeshua Christou"

Galatians 1:12 KJV
12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:12 TUA
12. oude gar ego para anthropou parelabon auto outeedidachthen alla di apokalupseos Iesou Christou.

"apokalupseos Iesou Christou"
"the Revelation of Yeshua Christou"

Galatians 2:2 KJV
2. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Galatians 2:2 TUA
2. Aneben de kata apokalupsin, kai anethemen autois toeuangelion ho kerusso en tois ethnesin, kat idian detois dokousin, me-pos eis kenon trecho e edramon.

"Aneben de kata apokalupsin"
"But I ascended up according to the Revelation" (of Yeshua Christou)

Galatians 1:11 ~ 2:2
11. But I certify you, brethren, that the Gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the Revelation of Yeshua Christou.
13. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the religion of the Jews, how that beyond measure I persecuted the congregation of God, and wasted it:
14. And profited in the religion of the Jews above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from the womb of my mother, [Jerusalem of above] and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17. Neither went I up into Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18. Then after three years I went up into Jerusalem, to be knowing of Kephas, and tarried with him days fifteen.
19. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the brother of the Lord.
20. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22. And was unknown by face unto the congregations of Judaea which were in Messiah:
23. But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now heralds the faith which once he destroyed.
24. And they glorified God in me.
1. Thereafter about fourteen years again I ascended up into Jerusalem with Barnabas; taking together with me Titus also.
2. But I ascended up according to the Revelation, and set forth to them that Gospel which I herald among the nations; but by myself to them of renown, lest haply I should run, or had run, in vain.
3. But not Titus, who was together with me, being a Greek, was forced to be cut off-circumcised:
4. But because of the sneaking in unawares false brethren, certain ones which crept in privately, sentinel-watchers of our liberty which we have in Yeshua Christou; so that they might bring us into bondage:
5. To whom not for the hour did we yield to submission; that the truth of the Gospel might continue toward you.

Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write exhorting you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For there are certain anthropon-man-faced crept in unawares, who were before of old time ordained toward this condemnation, ungodly ones, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Despotes-Housemaster and Master of us Yeshua Christou. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though you once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the watcher-messengers which kept not the estate of the Archen, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Paulos and his counterpart-watcher(s) were called up to Jerusalem of above, (the Bematos) to give an account.
And it was as it has been written even according to the Revelation of Yeshua Christou:

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them; "Anabatehode!"
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and the enemies of them were watching them . . .

whirlwind · Dec 1, 2013

daq said:
If Paul does not speak of himself then why does he state that he was given a "thorn in the flesh", in the form of "a messenger-angel of Satan to buffet him", so that he not become haughty or exalted due to the abundance of revelations that he had received? According to the context which flows Paul speaks of himself being caught up or harpazo-harpagenta-raptured to "the third heaven" and Paradise:

2 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Click to expand...

There are two ways, that I can think of, that one can understand the thorn in the flesh....

1. Thorn in the flesh (in the flesh of Paul himself).
2. Thorn in the flesh (in the flesh form of a messenger of Satan...a tare, son of Cain).

I always assumed #1 was correct but no longer. As you point out, when seen "in the context" it is indeed Paul himself that is the thorn to himself. It is his ego, his old man. Whether or not this thorn is so-named by Paul....Alexander, is another matter.

Your teaching of what the "thorn in the flesh" of Paul means is validation of my understanding of "the son of perdition." Our very own thorn in our very own sides:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That Ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We are the sons of perdition until he is revealed...in us, to us and we recognize who we are. Believers are the "temple of God" and we sit in the temple placing our understanding over that of His truths. We shew ourselves that we are God and...we are NOT. We must fall away from our old man, crucify ourselves so He can dwell in us. Then and only then...are we gathered to Him. The Lord Jesus came to us!

If then Paul claims the same mother as "Rufus" then who does he claim to be?

Romans 16:13 KJV
13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Mark 15:21 KJV
21. And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.

Is Paul claiming to be a flesh and blood brother to Rufus or...brother in Christ...asking others to salute Rufus who was, as was Paul....chosen in the Lord and in their mother...their mother being....

Matthew 12:48-50 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, Who is My mother? and who are My brethren? And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.

dragonfly · Dec 1, 2013

Hi whirlwind,

Kudos for your sig. I'm smiling, though not in a mocking or cynical way. God gives all sorts of people insight about truth. Praise His name.

daq · Dec 1, 2013

whirlwind said:
If Paul does not speak of himself then why does he state that he was given a "thorn in the flesh", in the form of "a messenger-angel of Satan to buffet him", so that he not become haughty or exalted due to the abundance of revelations that he had received? According to the context which flows Paul speaks of himself being caught up or harpazo-harpagenta-raptured to "the third heaven" and Paradise:

2 Corinthians 12:7 KJV
7. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Click to expand...

There are two ways, that I can think of, that one can understand the thorn in the flesh....

1. Thorn in the flesh (in the flesh of Paul himself).
2. Thorn in the flesh (in the flesh form of a messenger of Satan...a tare, son of Cain).

I always assumed #1 was correct but no longer. As you point out, when seen "in the context" it is indeed Paul himself that is the thorn to himself. It is his ego, his old man. Whether or not this thorn is so-named by Paul....Alexander, is another matter.

Your teaching of what the "thorn in the flesh" of Paul means is validation of my understanding of "the son of perdition." Our very own thorn in our very own sides:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That Ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We are the sons of perdition until he is revealed...in us, to us and we recognize who we are. Believers are the "temple of God" and we sit in the temple placing our understanding over that of His truths. We shew ourselves that we are God and...we are NOT. We must fall away from our old man, crucify ourselves so He can dwell in us. Then and only then...are we gathered to Him. The Lord Jesus came to us!

If then Paul claims the same mother as "Rufus" then who does he claim to be?

Romans 16:13 KJV
13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Mark 15:21 KJV
21. And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.

Is Paul claiming to be a flesh and blood brother to Rufus or...brother in Christ...asking others to salute Rufus who was, as was Paul....chosen in the Lord and in their mother...their mother being....

Matthew 12:48-50 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, Who is My mother? and who are My brethren? And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.

As for thorns and pricks in our sides and eyes Paul speaks from Torah without telling his audience because we are supposed to be searching these things out and as we do the Master reveals to us as the Father sees fit depending upon the condition of our hearts. And yes, those thorns, thistles, and pricks to our eyes and sides are entities that we are commanded to drive out of the land of dominion which we have been given, (every man is a house with his fields and lands). Those nations which are to be driven out are the seven nations, which are seven mountains, which are seven heads with seven kings, which were greater and mightier than the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:1-4 KJV
1. When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Paul brings to mind these seven nations in the Acts 13 discourse which someone else also quoted previously above:

Acts 13:16-19 KJV
16. Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
17. The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.
18. And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness.
19. And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot.

At the end of the Acts 13 sermon, which is not even given in the literal physical "land of Israel" but rather delivered in Antioch of Pisidia which was in Asia Minor or modern Turkey, Paul gives this warning which reveals that it has nothing to do with the literal nation-state called Israel found on modern Armageddon War Maps of the Middle East but rather has to do with every man because every man is the land:

Acts 13:40-41 KJV
40. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41. Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Most fail to check the source of this quote given in the warning:

Habakkuk 1:3-8 KJV
3. Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
4. Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
5. Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
6. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
7. They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
8. Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.

This genos-kind of "bitter and hasty Chaldean" cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh and they come "to possess dwellingplaces" not their own. The dwellingplaces they come to posses are likened to houses swept clean and garnished; and unfortunately in this case, as always, the body of the man is the house. The same Chaldeans are "the worst of the heathen" from Ezekiel 7:20-25 KJV. The inhabitants that are already in the land, (the flesh) which we are supposed to drive out or cut off when we come to Messiah are the same seven nations of Deuteronomy 7:1 quoted above herein and they are the "thorns" and "pricks" to our sides and eyes, (hindering spiritual sight or perception).

Numbers 33:54-56 KJV
54. And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
55. But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
56. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.

Joshua 23:11-13 KJV
11. Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God.
12. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13. Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

Judges 2:1-4 KJV
1. And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
2. And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
3. Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4. And it came to pass, when the angel of the Lord spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.

Therefore we are to make no covenants, leagues, or marriages with them. Likewise this kind of "marriage" is not one that may be attended, photographed, or seen with the natural eyes because those genos-kind are of unclean spirit and cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The Girgashite possessed man of the Gergesenes is one of the New Testament examples of the kind of "marriage" this concerns; as in the days of Noah.

As for sons of Petros such as Ioannes Markos and the anthropon countenance Paulos that is a whole thread.

dragonfly · Dec 1, 2013

Hi daq,

and his mother and mine.

Are you suggesting that Paul is referring to only one woman? Couldn't it be two?

I do get your other points, but since we are talking about named people, clearly each of them had a natural mother, first.

daq · Dec 2, 2013

whirlwind said:
Is Paul claiming to be a flesh and blood brother to Rufus or...brother in Christ...asking others to salute Rufus who was, as was Paul....chosen in the Lord and in their mother...their mother being....

Matthew 12:48-50 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, Who is My mother? and who are My brethren? And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, Behold My mother and My brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.

dragonfly said:
Hi daq,

Are you suggesting that Paul is referring to only one woman? Couldn't it be two?

I do get your other points, but since we are talking about named people, clearly each of them had a natural mother, first.

Ok, please allow me to revisit and redress some of the points previously opened in Posts #8-9. Does Paul condemn any other real, literal, physical man or woman? Would he be keeping with the Testimony of Yeshua if he did condemn another real, literal, physical person? Or does Paul in fact walk according to the Spirit and do likewise as he teaches? Surely he walks the message that he preaches and likewise he walks in the Testimony of Yeshua.

Matthew 5:43-48 KJV
43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does this commandment of Yeshua violate Torah that says we are to show no mercy to the seven heathen nations in the land? Absolutely not do the commandments of the Master change, alter, or violate Torah. Therefore we must discern what is spirit and what is physical. My physical brother or sister I am to forgive seventy times seven; even all seventy-two generational branches of my family tree, (Genesis 10). However, in the Spirit were are nowhere commanded to "love the Adversary" the Devil because he is our arch enemy in the spirit world. Not that it is acceptable to pronounce railing accusations against authorities and principalities but that we are not to allow them into our own houses and have fellowship with darkness and their doctrines of devils. So each one must discern where the Scripture speaks of physical man and where it speaks of spirit or supernatural enemies. This we do by putting on the mind of Messiah and walking in the Spirit which is the Word, (and without the Word no man can walk in the Spirit no matter what he claims). Yeshua does not violate or change Torah but rather properly interprets the meanings of it for us, (which Testimony also he gave his life and blood to confirm). Paul likewise violates neither Torah nor the Testimony of Yeshua. Thus he speaks these things according to the Spirit in which he walks:

Ephesians 6:12 KJV
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Paul is called to Macedonia when he sees the man Titon of Makedon in a vision:

Acts 16:6-10 KJV
6. Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7. After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
8. And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
9. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10. And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

The same Macedonia-Makedon is Yavan which is generally translated as "Grecia" in the prophet Daniel. Paul is then called into Yavan to preach the Gospel in those quarters; yet along the Way many things will befall him, and likewise he will be attracting some very unsavory characters along the Way. This is all used by God for teaching, and for his understanding, and toward his good in the End just as it is for us all as an example.

Understand that in those days brass, bronze, and copper were considered the same metal:

Acts 19:21-24 KJV
21. After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.
22. So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
23. And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
24. For a certain man named Demetrius, [GSN#1216 Demetrios] a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;

2 Timothy 4:10-15 KJV
10. For Demas [GSN#1214 Demas] hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
11. Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
12. And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.
13. The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
14. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15. Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

Therefore when Paul says to Timothy: "YOU TOO! Beware of Alexander the coppersmith: for he has greatly withstood our words!" It is a warning not only for Timothy but to everyone who likewise reads these words; for "Alexander the coppersmith" is not a physical entity but rather a thorn in the side of Paul, a messenger of the Adversary.

Original Strong's Ref. #1214
Romanized Demas
Pronounced day-mas'
probably for GSN1216; Demas, a Christian:
KJV--Demas.

Original Strong's Ref. #1216
Romanized Demetrios
Pronounced day-may'-tree-os
from Demeter (Ceres); Demetrius, the name of an Ephesian and of a Christian:
KJV--Demetrius.

1) Demetrius-Demas is a silversmith.
2) Alexander is a brass-bronze-coppersmith.
3) Who-what-where is the head of gold? :lol:

These are therefore typology types applicable to everyone:

Demetrius-Demeter-Demas -- Daryavesh-Cyrus -- Kings of Media-Persia (Daniel 8:20)
Alexander the coppersmith -- Alexander the Great of Macedon-Yavan (Daniel 8:21)

Demetrius the silversmith -- breast and arms of silver -- Prince of Persia (Daniel 10:20)
Alexander the coppersmith -- belly and thighs of brass -- Prince of Yavan (Daniel 10:20)

dragonfly · Dec 2, 2013

Hi daq,

Going back to post #9, I am beginning to see what you're getting at.

the Lord reward him according to his works:

Surely Paul is not wishing vengeance on anyone, since he specifically warns against not leaving vengeance to the Lord, at the end of Romans 12; but he is stating the obvious - that except a person repents and does their own vengeance to their previous disobedience (2 Cor 10:6) they will be 'reward'ed by the Lord 'according to' their works. We know from the following verses that Paul understands how Satan is allowed to cause torment in the mind and in the flesh when a body has sinned, until that person is willing to repent and be released from that bondage to sin.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Are you really implying (and inferring) that an unclean spirit can be made to stop blaspheming? Or only, that the person needs to be delivered from the unclean spirit which spouts blasphemy through their mouth?

daq · Dec 3, 2013

dragonfly said:
Hi daq,

Going back to post #9, I am beginning to see what you're getting at.

Surely Paul is not wishing vengeance on anyone, since he specifically warns against not leaving vengeance to the Lord, at the end of Romans 12; but he is stating the obvious - that except a person repents and does their own vengeance to their previous disobedience (2 Cor 10:6) they will be 'reward'ed by the Lord 'according to' their works. We know from the following verses that Paul understands how Satan is allowed to cause torment in the mind and in the flesh when a body has sinned, until that person is willing to repent and be released from that bondage to sin.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Are you really implying (and inferring) that an unclean spirit can be made to stop blaspheming? Or only, that the person needs to be delivered from the unclean spirit which spouts blasphemy through their mouth?

Here is the dilemma that we face dragonfly: sin dwells in the flesh and these things are presented by the Master in allegories, sayings, and parables, in the form of devils and demoniac unclean spirits with their doctrines of devils whether one wants to believe those things are real or not, (I dare not say they are not real but some dare say so). If therefore the Master employs these things in his teachings then we absolutely must adhere to what he says concerning them but understand likewise that other writers of the new covenant epistles and writings also follow this understanding even though in many places it may not appear that they speak of such things. An unclean spirit cannot be "saved", "reformed", or "regenerated", and therefore must be cut off and sent away, (but he always returns after a sojourn in the dry and arid places) and so must ultimately be cast into the lake of fire. Sin is personified from the beginning as entity:

Genesis 4:6-7 KJV
6. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin dwells in the flesh which is likened to the "outer bounds" erets-land portion of your temple:

Romans 7:18-23 KJV
18. For I know that in me ( that is, in my flesh, ) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Notice the word "members" in the above passage? These are the same "members" of our own "household" which we are given charge over while the Master is away "in a far journey". They are the same eyes, ears, mouth, hands, and feet, which Yeshua says we are to cut off or pluck out if they become an offense. How is it they might become an offense? Sin dwells in the flesh whether this is literal or symbolic as I said above; it really does not matter so long as one understands the concepts and carries them out as the Master has prescribed by his interpretations of Torah. This is part of the will of God and the same matter to which Paul also speaks in the famous 1Thes.4 passage where he mentions being caught up. The rapture passage is always taken out of its context to make something out of it which is not said. Paul speaks of those members which we have been forced to "mortify" as when he says "mortify the deeds of the body" and "mortify your members which are upon the earth" in those respective passages. As said many times around these fora; the man is the earth, and therefore your members are upon your own earth and concern your eyes, ears, mouth, hands, and feet which now belong to God. If therefore one of your eyes becomes an offense it is typologically speaking because that an "unclean spirit" has been allowed take over that eye and desires to use your eye as an evil eye. Therefore if your right eye is become utterly darkened then pluck him out, put him to sleep, mortify that member of your household. Surely you will not have gone over all the cities of Israel before the Son of man come. And when he comes he will restore those members which you were forced to put to sleep, (for the dead in Messiah shall rise first) and those members will no more be able to be taken over by the enemies of the faith because the vail shall have been completely lifted in that day and you shall see all things clearly as they are. Or else why should we immerse for the dead? Those members you were forced to put to rest will be raised in righteousness to serve God in holiness as you finish out your race; no more to be abused by unclean spirits: all your tears shall God wipe away from your eyes in that day.

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Jan 20, 2014

daq said:
There are three key words in the II Corinthians 12 passage to which perhaps one might pay particularly close attention concerning the revelatory-apokalupsis-vision of Saulos-Paulos and the "catching up" of the "duo" into the Third Heaven and Paradise. The three words are GSN#444 "anthropos", GSN#5108 "toioutos", and GSN#726 "harpazo", which three are each employed TWICE in critical places within the text of the account which Paulos writes concerning this his own catching away or "harpazo" more commonly known in modern times as "the Rapture". The word "toioutos" is most significant because it denotes "character or individuality" and seeing how it is employed twice in this context makes it an extreme probability that Paulos is implying that two different and distinct "individuals" were caught up or Raptured at this his own appointed-mow`ed-time in his walk with the Master.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 ASV (American Standard Version)
2. I know a man [GSN#444 anthropos] in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one [GSN#5108 toioutos] caught up [GSN#726 harpazo] even to the third heaven.
3. And I know such a [GSN#5108 toioutos] man [GSN#444 anthropos] (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4. how that he was caught up [GSN#726 harpazo] into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Original Strong's Ref. #444
Romanized anthropos
Pronounced anth'-ro-pos
from GSN0435 and ops (the countenance; from GSN3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:
KJV--certain, man.

Original Strong's Ref. #5108
Romanized toioutos
Pronounced toy-oo'-tos
(including the other inflections); from GSN5104 and GSN3778; truly this, i.e. of this sort (to denote character or individuality):
KJV--like, such (an one).

Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
2. Oida anthropon enChristo pro eton dekatessaron, eite en somati ouk oida, eite ektos tou somatos ouk oida (ho Theos oiden), harpagenta ton toiouton heos tritou ouranou.
3. Kai oida ton toiouton anthropon, eite en somati eitechoris {*} tou somatos ouk oida (ho Theos oiden),
4. hoti herpage eis ton Paradeison kai ekousen arreta remata ha ouk exon anthropo lalesai.

Verse three begins with "kai" which simply means "and" or "also" ~

Original Strong's Ref. #2532
Romanized kai
Pronounced kahee
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:
KJV--and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

What happens if we understand it here as "also" instead of "and"?

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 - A Literal Rendering
2. I know an anthropon-man-faced-countenance in Christou fourteen years ago; whether in the body, not I know, or whether out of the body, not I know, (the Theos knoweth), was harpazo-caught-up that certain-toioutos-one unto the third heaven.
3. ALSO I know of a certain-toioutos-one anthropon-man-faced-countenance; whether in the body, or apart from the body, not I know, (the Theos knoweth),
4. that was harpazo-caught-up into the Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Perhaps one of them was the "old man" Saulos and was aphiemi-sent-way:

Matthew 24:36-41
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the messengers of heaven, but my Father only.
37. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall duo-twain-two be in the field; one shall be paralambano-received-near, and one shall be aphiemi-sent-away.
41. Duo-twain-two shall be grinding at the mill; one shall be paralambano-received-near, and one shall be aphiemi-sent-away.

The typology is of the two sinners crucified on either side of the Master at the Cross, ("crucified with Christ"). The one did not repent, but the other repented and was received near; to Paradise. Both were caught up because the other also went to the third heaven in the vision of Saul-Paul. One of them heard words unspeakable which are not right for the anthropon-man-faced-fierce-countenance to speak. If the one heard these unspeakable words in the third heaven and Paradise then it was the "other one" who spoke them and that one is he that was aphiemi-sent away, (into his destruction). Woe be the day! And "Saulos" was no more; and the new man received a white stone having a new name written therein: Paulos.

Here we go with another apology for Rapturism. Really? Do we need yet another bogus explanation of a 19th century fiction.

According to the Rapture theory all the godly will be evacuated from the earth at some point in time. Take your pick - preTrib, midTrib, postTrib or postMillenium. There are four varieties all of which seem to prove the others wrong, yet their adherents cling to them as though they were truth. They aren't of course, being the interpretive fantasy of a legion of profitable writers beginning with Mr. John Nelson Darby.

Yet none explain scripture literally. All rapturists take liberties with their interpretations. Take, for example, the words of Jesus recorded by Luke in his seventeen chapter and thirty seventh verse of his gospel. The disciples of Christ asked Our Lord what will happen on the day He returns and where that will be.

Jesus answered and said, "Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered."

This quote, and a lot I can quote like it, suggest that the righteous WON'T be gathered into heaven, but that there will be a mass killing ON THE EARTH. Vultures are the omen of death. You can't spin that any other way without ripping out the truth of Holy Writ. Jesus is talking about death here, not angelic evacuation. Wake up. Read the words. Stop imagining something that isn't there or wasn't intended!

Read the previous passages in Luke's gospel. They paint a picture very much like NAZI gestapo or KGB agents arresting people in their homes in the middle of the night and escorting them off to a destiny unknown to the eyes and ears of man - a destiny of death. People will be taken from their beds it says. People will be arrested in the fields it says. If history teaches us nothing else it teaches us that in the day when tyranny rules the nation men and women of God will be suddenly removed from their usual places - by the agents of human authority, not angels.

It isn't Godly rapture the scripture talks about - it is the rampant abuse of power by an oppressive government. Read these passages again with an eye for REAL, DOWN TO EARTH explanation of the type of violent antiChristian environment people will live in - and what they may expect.

Then tell me which is the greater fantasy - a Star Trek beam out or the machinations of a fascist police state? Which is closer to what is happening today? Which may be closer to the truth? And which ought to be reserved for nursery tale recitations?

Be awake. Be sober. Pay attention to reality. Wise up. The enemy of all that is good is on the prowl seeking whom he may devour. Those who perish first will be those who are least attentive to the danger.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

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Harpazo-Rapture Saulos-Paulos

Retrobyter

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daq

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dragonfly

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