Forgotton Form of the Apocalypse

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JosyWales

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Oct 21, 2008
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We find many visions of the Apocalypse tossed about, come more fanciful than others and one must wonder why there are so many variations. After all, the bible only says one thing, yet people are able to extrapolate many different versions from it seemingly because of the symbolism used therein.

So, are we left on our own to understand what is written or does God give us a pattern to use in this?

There is a pattern, one completely overlooked by most people. It is pretty clear actually if you look.

There are two good places to start: Daniel 9 and something that is repeated over and over in Revelation.

In Daniel 9, as we all know, Daniel is praying to God about the 70 years of Tribulation that Jeremiah had prophesied about and which he was currently living through. He reminded God (not that God needed it I am sure) about the fact that only 70 years of captivity were determined upon the people and that time was almost up.

And sure enough, God shows up to comfort him with answers, but puts a twist on it.

Instead of speaking of the 70 year period that Daniel was praying about, Gabriel, whom God sent to speak with Daniel, begins to speak of a future 70 week period as if they were the same thing.

This may not be our first clue, but it is one of the clearest.

God is telling Daniel that what he is going through is going to be repeated in a stronger but shortened version at a later date and that both these times, the 70 years and the 70 weeks are similar.

Now in Revelation, we find that there are 7 angels that repeat a cycle in sequence 4 times, each time being a stronger version of the time before, so we are shown outright that this sequence of events seems to repeat itself. This lends itself to the concept that Daniel 9 shows us, which is that what once happened will happen again.

Not only that, but you then realize that Daniel himself, in the Book of Daniel, speaks of 7 people, or groups of people who are alike, in an ordered sequence. They are:

1. Jehoiakim
2. Daniel himself
3. Daniels three friends
4. Nebuchadnezzer
5. Belshazzar
6. Darius
7. Cyrus

Then when you take a closer look, you can see definite similarities in these 7 with the 7 angels mentioned in Revelation.

The First Angel of Revelation rides a white horse and falls, very similar to Jehoiakim.

The Second Angel is one of only two that God finds to be righteous but is given tribulation for 10 days, just as Daniel was in Daniel 2.

The Third Angel associates with the wicked, even though he himself never denies God, much as Daniels friends did, as shown by their showing up to the dedication of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue (which Daniel did not seem to do) and the fact that it is mentioned that they dress in the same attire as the Babylonians, which shows their assimilation into the culture.

The Fourth Angel is very strong and has many good features but is corrupted by a woman who worships false gods, much like Nebuchadnezzar also followed the false gods of Babylon.

The Fifth Angel is simply referred to as being ‘dead’ by God, having totally corrupted himself and being completely driven by carnal motivations, which is pretty dead on in relation to Belshazzar.

The Sixth Angel is the only other one that God feels is righteous of the 7, however he is said to be weak.Looking at Darius, we can see him being easily influenced by others to the point of being tricked by his counselors, by manipulating him with his own pride, into throwing Daniel into the Lion’s Den.

The Seventh Angel is the richest of all the Angels and is the one who is given the most material goods by God, yet God has to counsel him to buy ‘eye salve’ because he is on a path to complete rejection by God to the point of being the only Angel to be completely thrown out of the Mountain of God. In the Prophecy of Isaiah, Cyrus is spoken of as if he were a Messiah (Isaiah actually calls him a messiah in Isa 45:1 using the same word for Messiah that Daniel does in Dan 9) but then goes on to say “You have not known me” in Isa 45:4.

This is the pattern of the 7 Angels of Revelation and thus the pattern of the Apocalypse.

Combining this with the discovery that the number of days listed in Daniel, (the 2300 days and the 70 weeks) and the days listed in Revelation concerning the 5th – 7th Angels and the days that the 2 Witnesses lie dead are all literal, using the formula that combining the 70 weeks of Daniel with all the days listed in Revelation equals 2300 days as prophesied in Daniel 8, and understanding that the 7 Angels are actually real people, just as the people in Daniel were, the pattern reveals itself.

Also, in Ezekiel 14, God directly mentions that Noah, Daniel and Job, people who existed in vastly different times, will seem to be present in the final Apocalypse. Since men are only appointed to live once on this earth, it must be that what is being told to us is that this is the same method as used in Mal 4:5 and interpreted by Jesus in Matt 17:10-14.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

When asked about this Jesus said:

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

It is in this same manner that Noah, Daniel and Job will appear as the first 3 angels of Revelation in that the first three Angels will stand in the room of Noah, Daniel and Job, just at John the Baptist stood in the room of Elijah during the time of Jesus.

Therefore, any interpretation that does not fit this form given to us by God as shown throughout the bible and pinpointed in Daniel and Revelation is a fabrication based on confusion.
 

daq

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Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
Yes, patterns, shadows, and types, patterns, shadows, and types ...

Yet there are many more patterns, shadows, and types concerning the very same things which you have addressed herein and yet all of them must be taken into consideration. When this is done one will hopefully be led to find that the only reasonable understanding is that these things all pertain to the saints; each one individually, for the man is the dominion or the kingdom: there are four generations of the dominions of the man. The Book of Daniel uses place names and worldly kingdoms to typecast these things concerning the saints. Here is one simple but critical example of how these things may only be understood by the Testimony of Yeshua:

All numbers and statements in [brackets] my emphasis:

Proverbs 30:11-15 KJV
11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13. There is a generation [3], O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14. There is a generation [4], whose teeth are as swords, [Daniel 7:7] and their jaw teeth as knives, [Daniel 7:7] to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
15. The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:


Notice the "horseleach with two daughters" attached to "the fourth generation" making the sum number of seven?
Notice also the "teeth as swords" and "jaw teeth as knives"? Of old time the same were made of iron, (i.e. Daniel 7:7).
In the following we have the four generations of the man and the seven unclean spirits:

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation [2], and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation [3], and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].


If the "old man" returns with seven other spirits more wicked than himself would he not then be "the eighth and of the seven"? And in the following not only is the idol-image sixty cubits high, (Ezekiel Temple Gates) but "Dura" means "circle" "circle of dwelling" or "indwelling". And not only is the image six cubits wide-round about but there are SIX MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS for the "worship" music. And what does Nebuchadnezzar the head of gold do then? He goes and gets the seven most wicked rulers of the rulers of his dominion and together they comprise the eight. The same happens to the six musical instruments which all together are the seventh at once. Also, by the way, this image all of gold is a direct result of the previous vision wherein the king is told that he himself is "the head of gold" revealing that, in the dominion of this and all natural men, everyone must bow down and worship the image of himself which he has conjured for himself in the vain imagination of the "chambers of his imagery" (his mind).

Daniel 3:1-6 KJV
1. Nebuchadnezzar t
he king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
2. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together the princes [1], the governors [2], and the captains [3], the judges [4], the treasurers [5], the counsellers [6], the sheriffs [7], and all the rulers of the provinces [8], to come to the dedication of the image which Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
3. Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the judges, the treasurers, the counsellers, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
4. Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O people, nations, and languages,
5. That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet [1], flute [2], harp [3], sackbut [4], psaltery [5], dulcimer [6], and all kinds of musick [7], ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:

6. And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.


Also one other noteworthy thing that must be addressed:
Daniel was certainly there because he was just made ruler over the whole province of Babylon ~

Daniel 2:48-49 KJV
48. Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.
49. Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.


O Belteshazzar-Belshazzar ... what did you do? :(
 

JosyWales

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Oct 21, 2008
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I think that Daniel may have supposed to be there, but was not, otherwise he would have stood with his friends.

As for the rest of your stuff, since it has very little to do with what I was trying to show these folks, I have nothing to say about it.

Also, if that last comment is a swipe at Daniel, I think you should really rethink your situation.
 

daq

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Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
JosyWales said:
I think that Daniel may have supposed to be there, but was not, otherwise he would have stood with his friends.

As for the rest of your stuff, since it has very little to do with what I was trying to show these folks, I have nothing to say about it.

Also, if that last comment is a swipe at Daniel, I think you should really rethink your situation.
Perhaps you should rethink your own mindset: is it really the Truth that you care about presenting or is it rather your own version of what you imagine as the truth which you hold in the highest honor? Likewise we are all human, including the prophets, yet you appear to imagine Daniel as a perfect human being; have you not read how king David made some terrible mistakes but learned from them? How will you learn anything with such a mindset? Those who think they know everything they need to know have ceased to learn and ceased to grow in Messiah. The author of Daniel clearly reveals that he was "made ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon" yet you prefer to ignore the Scripture and proceed to tell yourself he must have been on vacation at the time. In addition there is no "spelling change" between Daniel called "Beltasar" and "Beltasar king of Babylon" found in the Septuagint Greek version of the Old Testament, (and the Septuagint is that which was compiled and translated beginning circa 280BC by the seventy elders of the Jews into Greek under Ptolemy) which the New Testament authors quote from:

Daniel 1:6-7 LXX Septuagint (Brenton Translation 1851)
[6] Now these were among them of the children of Juda, Daniel, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael. [7] And the chief of the eunuchs gave them names: to Daniel, Baltasar; and to Ananias, Sedrach; and to Misael, Misach; and to Azarias, Abdenago.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm

Daniel 1:6-7 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
[6] kai ēsan ek tou genous tōn uiōn israēl tōn apo tēs ioudaias daniēl ananias misaēl azarias [7] kai epethēken autois o archieunouchos onomata tō men daniēl baltasar tō de anania sedrach kai tō misaēl misach kai tō azaria abdenagō

http://sept.biblos.com/daniel/1.htm

Daniel 5:1 LXX Septuagint (Brenton Translation 1851)
[1] Baltasar the king made a great supper for his thousand nobles, and there was wine before the thousand.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm

Daniel 5:1 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
[1] baltasar o basileus epoiēsen estiatorian megalēn tois etairois autou kai epinen oinon

http://sept.biblos.com/daniel/5.htm


You just finished saying that I was engaged in "presupposed thinking" in another thread: who is the one engaging in "presupposed thinking" here in this thread? Is it myself once again? Let me guess; you probably have charts to prove why you are right and the Scripture is wrong? I will attempt leave off here teacher so you and your students can enjoy your thread. :)
 

JosyWales

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Be careful there Daq, your flip side is showing.

The bible has never shied away from showing the bad side of those who claim to be Gods people, yet even with no proof of anything, you assume that Daniel, one of the coolest people in the bible, was somehow a participant in an evil act.

You even go further to somehow evilly compare Daniel to Belshazzar because of a similarity in names. I have my own speculation as to why Belshazzar was given a name like the one that was bestowed on Daniel and, unlike your interpretation, it is not because Daniel had anything wrong with him.

You ignore scripture and cast dispursions on the beloved of God for your own purposes. It is not for me to judge you but I have a feeling you will be judged by one higher than me.