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Rex

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NetChaplain said:
Hi Rex - Again your on target and I like replying to your posts because they usually concern the meat-of-the-Word issues. I believe (as you do) the members in this context (Rom 7:23) are not the physical parts of the body but the members of "the body of sin" or sinful nature (Rom 6:6), which the Spirit "mortifies" (I believe He continually applies Christ's Cross to the "old man"): "Mortify (crucify) therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5).
As I pointed out on the previous page we all inherited death our immortal body that was inherited from Adam we inherited not the sin but the consequences of it death our body we are born with has been condemned by God.
In effect as Paul says in Romans 8:3 (God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,) that sinful flesh was inherited and will always be dead.

Didn't Jesus himself "in the likeness of sinful flesh" give up that flesh to be raised in a new body as well?

Paul says in 1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.

Now when Paul crys out in Romans 7 when will we be delivered from THIS BODY OF DEATH
Just as he said in 1 Cor 15:42 The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
We were born with a corrupt body it will never be in union with the new spiritual man that now lives with-in it when one is born again.
As he says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, Jesus as well gave up his body in the likeness of sinful flesh.


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So
when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]

55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore,
my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the
work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

The old man as we have been calling it, is the body and spirit of a man born in enmity with God both the inter-man and the fleshly body.
The new man inside this body is told repeatedly to resist the old man even though the inter-man has been reborn. We struggle with that inherent condition we will never have complete victory over it until we like a seed our born with body is broken or dies and the inter-new man receives his new body.

I hope my point is made that we are all born into a vessel that is condemned to death, mortal and will never experience the immortal new man or be fully subjective to him as well. So we not only struggle with the inter-nature but the very vessel our body is not conducant or friendly to the life of the Spiritual man. We will not be completely free of its influence until we leave it.


This is what Paul is speak about in Romans 7
He is not speaking as an unsaved man but rather a man of God trapped with-in an already condemned dead body.
 

Axehead

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Rex said:
As I pointed out on the previous page we all inherited death our immortal body that was inherited from Adam we inherited not the sin but the consequences of it death our body we are born with has been condemned by God.
In effect as Paul says in Romans 8:3 (God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,) that sinful flesh was inherited and will always be dead.
Likeness of sinful flesh means that Jesus was incarnated into a human body.

Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Rex said:
Didn't Jesus himself "in the likeness of sinful flesh" give up that flesh to be raised in a new body as well?
yes, and we will be raised in a new body, too. But, aren't you getting off topic. I still have to bring you back to our death (which is part of our regeneration, resurrection of the new man in us. If new man resurrected then an old man which was crucified, died). Can't you see this?

Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (our old man died and new man was raised up in spiritual regeneration. A present spiritual reality).

What died? Are you saying it is all figurative and nothing really died in us?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; (Tell me what is dead?) that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? (What man is being spoken of here? Old Man)

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, (not the physical body might be destroyed but the body of sin (old man)) that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead (old man is dead) is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Remember you are dead, your old man is dead and don't give into your unrenewed mind)

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him (speaking of the old man), we shall also live with him:


Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, (speaking of the old man) and your life is hid with Christ in God.


The old man is the unregenerate man that was crucified with Christ and died and the unregenerate man is not living alongside the regenerate new man. Sanctification takes place in our soul, the old man is not sanctified. Our soul is being sanctified and our mind is part of the soul and it is being renewed by the washing of the word.

Paul cannot be speaking of himself as a regenerated man. It makes no sense when you answer the question:

What died in Romans 6 and 7:4, 7:6? What died and what was destroyed in Romans 6:6?

Axehead

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 

Rex

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I've said all I'm going to say about the topic AH
Have a nice day

A passing thought your Romans 6 evidence as you present it doesn't stack up If you continue to read "the part you didn't post",
as he said 11 reckon, or consider ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin

Why because the body will never be in harmony with the new Spirit.

So------>>> 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Nothing here about a renewed body or its nature following the life of the Spirit.
You will not be dead or unaffected to this nature until the corrupatabe puts on the incorruptible
If you don't understand you certainly have never experienced it, being free from sin and its influence in this life is a false teaching. But maybe If you rebuke every devil and every temptation, you make think you have been successful but in reality you have only lost sight of the condition of the filthy rags you are clothed in, that being a body condemned unto death. Isaiah 64:6 Filthy rags AKA sinful flesh Zechariah 3:3-4

Thats my last post in this thread
God bless and endure to the end
 

Axehead

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Rex said:
I've said all I'm going to say about the topic AH
Have a nice day

A passing thought your Romans 6 evidence as you present it doesn't stack up If you continue to read "the part you didn't post",
as he said 11 reckon, or consider ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin

Why because the body will never be in harmony with the new Spirit.

So------>>> 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Nothing here about a renewed body or its nature following the life of the Spirit.
You will not be dead or unaffected to this nature until the corrupatabe puts on the incorruptible
If you don't understand you certainly have never experienced it, being free from sin and its influence in this life is a false teaching. But maybe If you rebuke every devil and every temptation, you make think you have been successful but in reality you have only lost sight of the condition of the filthy rags you are clothed in, that being a body condemned unto death. Isaiah 64:6 Filthy rags AKA sinful flesh Zechariah 3:3-4

Thats my last post in this thread
God bless and endure to the end
Somehow, we're not connecting. I have not spoken about a renewed body? The only way for our physical body to be in harmony with the Spirit is for us to use our body for righteousness not unrighteousness. Our body does what our "new man" tells it to do just like it did what the "old man" told it to do.

We reckon ourselves to be dead not because it isn't true, but because it is true! We are still capable of choosing to sin, but not because the "old man" is still alive, because our mind is not renewed, and other parts of our heart are not surrendered to the Lord.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

You certainly don't want the unrenewed parts of your heart (mind, will, emotions) to control your body, and that is why the mind is to be renewed, too.

I never said one is free from sin and its influence in this life. I have actually said the opposite. Maybe it is a good thing that you stop posting until you can quote people correctly. I notice that you have quoted others incorrectly too, and then you put words in their mouths and accuse them of false teaching. There is a better way to work through an issue than to misquote and hurl accusations.

Axehead
 

Netchaplain

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Depending on the context, the word "flesh" has two meanings: the physical body and the spiritual nature housed by the body. It's the spirit wherein the soul dwells and renders the spirit evil, by decision of the soul. The body which is just an object or a thing cannot be evil, for "All things indeed are pure" (Rom 14:20).

The body is just a thing which performs the dictates of our spirit. Like a pen, it has no spirit nor a soul for making decisions but is used for performing what the hand directs. The accountability for evil is attributed to the spirit. The body is just a recipient of the decisions of the spirit and is no more evil than a pen.
 

dragonfly

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Hi brethren,

Great discussion going on here. :)


Hi Axehead,

I was reading previous posts focusing on the end of Romans 7, and I wanted to bring you all back to the start of the chapter. Eventually you did go back to Romans 7:4, but.... the big problem I am seeing in how some participants are reasoning, is that they keep removing their whole selves from being 'in Christ'... and I think you got drawn into that when you said:
What died? Are you saying it is all figurative and nothing really died in us?
I don't think this is the right way to phrase the question, because there is a sense in which nothing has died in us, unless we are in the death of Christ.

This is what Paul manages to bring together in one sentence for our edification. We need to learn to think like this:
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
'dead to the law by the body of Christ'.

Paul captures the issue in his own inimitable style in Galatians again:

Galatians 2:17 But
if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Exactly! If 'I' sin, while 'I' 'seek to be justified by Christ' I have taken myself out of the effect of His death into which I am supposed to be grafted.

This is why the apostles exhort us to 'keep yourselves in the love of God', '... keep yourselves from idols'. We do this, not God.

Likewise to Romans 7, Paul puts the good news first in Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Please note, Bob and Rex, that it is our MORTAL body which is going to be brought to life by His Spirit dwelling in us. This is a present reality. Paul gets to explaining how this quickening is going to come about, in Romans 8:12, 13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

There it is again - that personal responsibility to do something on our own behalf - 'mortify the [ungodly] deeds of the body' so that the Spirit can bring the mortified part to recreated life in us.

In this way, by our obedience to God's word to us personally, His word (Matt 7:24) is made flesh in us. New, alive, flesh which can please Him, habitually living and walking in the Spirit. This is the truth, whether you believe it or not. Please believe it!

This is what Jesus was teaching when He told his disciples to take up their cross daily, so that by 'losing' their lives, they would save them for eternity.

Young's Literal Translation uses 'disown' your life. This helps, I think, to acknowledge the radical choices being required continuously of the believer, which are also embedded in Paul's exhortations to 'walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called', 'walk as children of light'.

John 12:36
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

How can such a person have an habitual sin problem? It just doesn't jive with John 3:19, either.
 

Axehead

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dragonfly said:
Hi brethren,

Great discussion going on here. :)


Hi Axehead,

I was reading previous posts focusing on the end of Romans 7, and I wanted to bring you all back to the start of the chapter. Eventually you did go back to Romans 7:4, but.... the big problem I am seeing in how some participants are reasoning, is that they keep removing their whole selves from being 'in Christ'... and I think you got drawn into that when you said:

I don't think this is the right way to phrase the question, because there is a sense in which nothing has died in us, unless we are in the death of Christ.

This is what Paul manages to bring together in one sentence for our edification. We need to learn to think like this:

'dead to the law by the body of Christ'.

Paul captures the issue in his own inimitable style in Galatians again:

Galatians 2:17 But
if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Exactly! If 'I' sin, while 'I' 'seek to be justified by Christ' I have taken myself out of the effect of His death into which I am supposed to be grafted.

This is why the apostles exhort us to 'keep yourselves in the love of God', '... keep yourselves from idols'. We do this, not God.

Likewise to Romans 7, Paul puts the good news first in Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Please note, Bob and Rex, that it is our MORTAL body which is going to be brought to life by His Spirit dwelling in us. This is a present reality. Paul gets to explaining how this quickening is going to come about, in Romans 8:12, 13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

There is is again - that personal responsibility to do something on our own behalf - 'mortify the [ungodly] deeds of the body' so that the Spirit can bring the mortified part to recreated life in us.

In this way, by our obedience to God's word to us personally, His word (Matt 7:24) is made flesh in us. New, alive, flesh which can please Him, habitually living and walking in the Spirit. This is the truth, whether you believe it or not. Please believe it!

This is what Jesus was teaching when He told his disciples to take up their cross daily, so that by 'losing' their lives, they would save them for eternity.

Young's Literal Translation uses 'disown' your life. This helps, I think, to acknowledge the radical choices being required continuously of the believer, which are also embedded in Paul's exhortations to 'walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called', 'walk as children of light'.

John 12:36
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

How can such a person have an habitual sin problem? It just doesn't jive with John 3:19, either.
You are so right, dragonfly and thank you for bringing that correction. We were placed into His death.

Romans 5 tells us what Adam brought on his descendants. Romans 6 tells us what Christ has effected on those that are now in Him. God did not take the believer out of Adam to leave him without descent or affiliation. We were taken out of the death of Adam to be placed into the death and then the life of Christ.

Were we not?

He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5.

Let's talk about this verse, next if you would like to.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Axehead
 

dragonfly

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Quote


Let's talk about this verse, next if you would like to.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
I believe there are two sides to making this work in practice.

The first is to have understood one's own worthiness of death for one's sins. Often this comes through a combination of 'hearing' the gospel, understanding 'the word' which God brings to our hearts through faithful preachers, and our spontaneous reactions to the sins we know we have committed, (which may make us wish that we could immediately die rather than face the consequences). Understanding repentance is slightly different, (I think) because the sinfulness of sin doesn't make that much sense to the natural man apart from the pricking of the heart by the word of God in the light of hearing that another man died on one's behalf, to take away one's own penalty for sin and offer eternal life in its place. So... just getting a handle on how oneself has sinned, and experiencing appropriate responses to God's invitation to believe in Jesus Christ, is one aspect.

The other side is to understand what was going on on the cross - just what God was accomplishing through the death of His Son. Without appreciating the power of Christ's death to sever our connection with the sinful nature by a spiritual transaction, taking up one's cross really doesn't appeal! It is amazing how one's taste for sin is altered by choosing to die in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

For by one offering (of Himself) He has completed for ever those who are set apart to God (exclusively).

To connect properly with how His death is the door to walking in newness of life through the Spirit, one has to take the decision to be set apart to God exclusively, and to count that as the foundation of all 'reckoning oneself dead' by which flesh is brought into line with the spiritual truth it is supposed to be obeying. 1 John 3:3

I didn't find Watchman Nee's teaching on 'laying down the soul life', very helpful, because I was forever trying to cut off natural expressions of having a soul at all. There was no healthy balance in my thinking. I can see how people find it easier to co-operate with their flesh than with their new spirit, but that really is a cop-out. The flesh is supposed to serve the spirit - as it always did when it obeyed the sinful motions of the old man to sin - but now, it is to obey the purified motivations of the new man to not sin.

The soul is somewhere in the notional middle receiving its substance from the activities of the flesh, and its thinking life from the spirit/heart I believe the soul (inner man) records the whole life of the person, and identifies their uniqueness in all its fulness. The amazing thing about the blood of the Lamb, is that it can cleanse the soul of all its participations in sin, and make the soul know God's pleasure over its purity as it has been cleansed. There is a new start for the soul in respect of its history of sin (which is now completely gone) and the believer is challenged with so walking in obedience to the leading of the Spirit, that the flesh is no longer obeying its own desires. 1 John 1:7 This goes along with the 'disown'ing of one's ' own life', which the YLT indicates.


Have I made that simple, or complicated? To some extent, I think it has to be experienced to be believed!
 

dragonfly

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I forgot to mention, (Axehead) that your use of the word 'amoral' was slightly unconventional! I think if it can be excused,;) you were using it in a pure way to mean there is no intrinsic moral status attached to 'the soul' (also referred to as 'the inner man'). I comment because the usual use of 'amoral' conveys a level of immorality beyond the decandence of 'immoral', where 'immoral' means that (good) morality has been compromised.
 

Axehead

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dragonfly said:
I forgot to mention, (Axehead) that your use of the word 'amoral' was slightly unconventional! I think if it can be excused, ;) you were using it in a pure way to mean there is no intrinsic moral status attached to 'the soul' (also referred to as 'the inner man'). I comment because the usual use of 'amoral' conveys a level of immorality beyond the decandence of 'immoral', where 'immoral' means that (good) morality has been compromised.
Yes, that is how I was using it. But, I may be mistaken, I thought I was using regarding the body. An arm by itself is just an arm. But, by extension, the inner man also has members and that is a good point. Our soul needs to submit itself to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
 

mjrhealth

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Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

All I know is that Jesus became sin, and in doing so was seperated from teh Father for a time, my sin that was not yes was already done away with. God is not here to rescue our bodies, He is here to rescue our spirits, I wish that I was perfect as He is perfect but as long as I live in this flesh I will have sin befor me continually, but I died with Christ, my flesh is dead it is my spirit that lives for God, and if I am already dead than the life I Live, i Live for Jesus so that He may be glorified in teh works He does as in all His saints.

In All His Love
 

ScottAU

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Many people hold to a view that salvation is a position that one holds APART from the actual CONDITION of the heart. Thus they see themselves "identified with Christ" while they are still in bondage to their sins.


The Bible very clearly states that...

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his nameJESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The Bible also states this...

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Dominion means to "rule over." The reason sin is to not have dominion is due to not being "under law" but rather "under grace." We need to examine what "not being under law" and "being under grace actually means."

If we look in in the next chapter it says this...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to
him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto
death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Read those scriptures several time and carefully put them all together. What do they teach?

1. Sin shall not have dominion over a Christian.
2. Sin has dominion due to the law (transgression is a violation of the law 1Joh 3:4).
3. Being in the flesh works fruit unto death by the motions of sins.
4. One is delivered from the law to serve in newness of Spirit.

Let's add a few more scriptures. First let's demonstrate how the "motions of sins produce death."

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The above passage clearly has "death" being the result of "yielding to temptation" which is wrought by the "lusts of the flesh." Yet it is
important to establish that this death is ONLY produced when there is LAW. Paul describes the death as follows...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Carefully read the above passage again. Notice it teaches that it is "the law" or "the commandment" which GIVES KNOWLEDGE and it is "the knowledge of sin" which gives "sin the power to kill." Hence Paul was alive without the law but when the commandment came sin revived and he died.

This is exactly what happened to Adam and Eve in the garden. They were both alive and innocent, walking with God. God then gave them a commandment to not do something and warned them if they violated the commandment they would die that very day. Instead of choosing to obey God Eve yielded to the lusts of her flesh (Gen 3:6) and sinned unto death. The spiritual connection between her and God was broken and thus she died to God having her conscience defiled. Adam followed her example and died also.


Sin is defined in the text 3 times in the New Testament.

Disobedience.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is
the transgression of the law.

Disobedience.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to
him it is sin.

Disobedience.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth
not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

All the verses above have sin defined as either a violation of a command
or a violation of conscience. The sin that kills is disobedience.

Paul explained how this death came upon all men...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless who is the figure of him that was to come.death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,

Adam sinned and died and then his descendants have followed in like manner and have all sinned and thus died by either violating a direct command of God or by violating the light of conscience (Joh 1:9, Tit 2:11-12).


John describes TWO KINDS of sin.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that
sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him
not.

Briefly go back and reread Rom 7:7-11 about how sin kills. What Paul is describing there is "sin unto death" which is ALWAYS presumptuous sin. Presumptuous sin is simply CHOOSING to do wrong when YOU KNOW to do what is right.

Now go back and reread Rom 7:4-6. It states that we are dead to the law THROUGH the body of Christ so we can be MARRIED TO ANOTHER which WE SERVE in the NEWNESS OF SPIRIT.

The "serving in newness of Spirit" is KEY. Why is it key? Paul writes this...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is the Spirit of life IN Christ which sets us free free from the law of sin and death. It is by walking after the Spirit that righteousness is fulfilled in us.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Being under grace means YOU SERVE RIGHTEOUSNESS instead of serving sin. Read the passage above for it clearly teaches that "being made free from sin" is connected to "obeying from the heart." If a person is still "sinning unto death" (disobedience) then THEY ARE STILL A SLAVE OF SIN (Rom 6:16). Obeying from the heart is yielding ourselves to the leading of the Spirit instead of yielding ourselves to the lusts of the flesh.

Who we yield to reveals whose slave we actually are.




Remember the very first verse I quoted?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus actually stated the following...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Therefore WHAT IS SALVATION?

Salvation is being SET FREE FROM SIN. Both the dominion of sin and the bondage of sin.

Many today believe an abstract positional salvation which is simply not taught anywhere in the Bible. They hold to this myth which is found in the doctrines and teachings of men.

Jesus taught the following...

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

The Pharisees held to a theology which completely negated the aspect of heart purity.

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

They were blinded as to their true state before God. They sought their righteousness in outward observance of rituals and washings instead of yielding to God in spirit and in truth. Jesus corrected them in regards to their error by pointing it out and teaching them the way they ought to go.

In the present age it is not much different for many hold to doctrines which negate the cleansing of the heart. The Bible says...

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Obedience to the truth has always been the route by which one is set free from sin. We need the blood of Christ to cleanse our consciences (Heb 9:14, 10:22) but this is only possible if we walk in the light (1Joh 1:7). Therefore it is through obeying from the heart that one becomes a slave to righteousness (Rom 6:17-18). It is through obeying from the heart that we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Joh 15:4-5, Rom 8:1-3) through which we manifest the fruit of righteousness (Rom 8:4, 1Joh 3:9-10).


Those born of God DO NOT "sin unto death.". Those born of God "keep themselves" instead.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

How do they keep themselves?

The walk after the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


When a sinner lays aside their rebellion through a broken repentance (2Cor 7:10-11, Pro 28:13, Isa 55:7) and receives meekly the implanted word (Jam 1:21) and thus becomes a doer of the word (Jam 1:22) God empowers that "former sinner" to walk in victory as a slave to righteousness.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is by walking in the light as a child of God that we continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2Pet 3:18) as we diligently add to our faith (2Pet 1:5) having escaped the corruption in the world through lust (2Pet 1:4) that we may be partakers in the divine nature (2Pet 1:4) by which we make our calling and election sure (2Pet 1:10) through which we may be granted abundant entrance into the kingdom (2Pet 1:11).

God won't be mocked for his word is true and we will all reap what we sow.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Therefore let us not be weary for we will reap life everlasting if we faint not.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.



God bless.
 
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Axehead

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ScottAU said:
Many people hold to a view that salvation is a position that one holds APART from the actual CONDITION of the heart. Thus they see themselves "identified with Christ" while they are still in bondage to their sins.
ScottAU said:
Therefore WHAT IS SALVATION?
Salvation is being SET FREE FROM SIN. Both the dominion of sin and the bondage of sin.

Many today believe an abstract positional salvation which is simply not taught anywhere in the Bible. They hold to this myth which is found in the doctrines and teachings of men.
ScottAU said:
When a sinner lays aside their rebellion through a broken repentance (2Cor 7:10-11, Pro 28:13, Isa 55:7) and receives meekly the implanted word (Jam 1:21) and thus becomes a doer of the word (Jam 1:22) God empowers that "former sinner" to walk in victory as a slave to righteousness.
That was all very nicely laid out Scott. I especially like your statements above.

Salvation is a process that "makes one safe" from the diabolical workings of flesh, sin and Satan. Salvation, like you said is not "a position" apart from what is going on in the heart. The Pharisees indeed thought so. "Our father is Abraham", they boasted. That is another example of abstract positional salvation. Identifying with anything else except Christ. Identifying with man-made doctrines and denominations is the same thing as saying "Our father is Abraham".

Again, salvation is a process and I know some will misinterpret this as "works salvation". But, if there is any work, it is to abide in Christ so that His saving life will be active in us. Out of abiding in Christ we will walk in His will so we don't need to put the cart before the horse. Abide in Him and you will definitely be walking in works AUTHORED by Him and not yourself. Concentrate on abiding in His "saving life".

Salvation is not a concept it is a Person.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Does your Bible say, "We shall be saved")

And how shall we be saved? We are saved by His life operating within us. Not by disassociated creeds that we intellectually ascent to or a prayer we prayed 20 years ago. Salvation is not a theological category or logical premise.

When one is truly identifying with Christ, he is participating in the ongoing dynamic of Christ's life within him. And His life will lead us to put to death the deeds of the flesh, purify our soul, and make us overcomers, in this life (sin shall not have dominion over you). His Life, (truly abiding in Him) will cause you to truly experience the promises and declarations in the Scriptures that Scott listed above.

Salvation is not our activity but the ongoing activity of Christ within us. It is not a one-time, static commodity.

Men have to create their own doctrines to make up for the lack of vital, ongoing union with Christ. When this union is absent, scriptures which speak about victory and overcoming cannot be experienced or understood, so doctrinal explanations have to be created to address these scriptures because the reality of ongoing bondage and habitual sin in the Believer's life require Scripture meaning to be adjusted.

"Sin shall not have dominion over you!" That is as simple as it can get.

Thanks again, Scott.

Axehead