Which is the most important, Old or New Testament

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Amy

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(thesuperjag;18824)
Ephesians 4:26 - Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Right on spot, well done
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Wise Haven

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It dosen't matter what you believe if you don't believe the word of God.
I am prepared to believe the word of God but I must be sure it is the word of God and not someone bearing false witness.(That is not implying that you are):angel9:
 

Jordan

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Psalm 7:11 - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
 

Wise Haven

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(thesuperjag;18829)
Psalm 7:11 - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
I am sorry thesuperjag but how does this address my last post?
 

Jordan

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Actually I was aiming at...(Wise Haven)
Jesus did express his disapproval - In the form of anger. Was this the way God communicated his disapproval of this conduct to humankind?I do not believe God has need for anger but I think that this manifestation is necessary for humans to understand the severity of Gods disapproval.
Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
 

Wise Haven

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I believe in God therefore I believe in Jesus who was the manifestation of God on earth.I cannot accept the absolute divinity of the Bible(OT and NT)Ergo I become a Christian without a sect.What about Christian fellowship?:angel9:
 

Amy

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I am prepared to believe the word of God but I must be sure it is the word of God and not someone bearing false witness.(That is not implying that you are):angel9:
I usually pray before I read anything concerning faith so that I may understand it in God's wisdom and not my own.May be you should try the same
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I sincerely wish you all the best :bible:
 

Jordan

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(Wise Haven)
I believe in God therefore I believe in Jesus who was the manifestation of God on earth.I cannot accept the absolute divinity of the Bible(OT and NT)Ergo I become a Christian without a sect.What about Christian fellowship?
This post is the second time you posted, are you going to repeat it for the third time? Either you believe that Yahshua didn't come to change the law or you don't. I'll leave that up to you after you read these verses.Matthew 5:17-18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 

Christina

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I believe in God therefore I believe in Jesus who was the manifestation of God on earth.I cannot accept the absolute divinity of the Bible(OT and NT)Ergo I become a Christian without a sect.What about Christian fellowship?:angel9:
What are you talking about you have it backwards the bible has no sect, denomination or religion that is mans creation the Bible is simply the Word of God without mans twist before you say you don't believe in something don't you think you otta learn about first??? Or maybe its just easier to buy the old argument awe men have completely changed it anyway. If so you are wrong many of us study straight straight from the original manuscripts and languages and the changes could be counted on one hand and are very well known.Furthermore did you know there were certain verses locked in with hidden names of God spelled forward and backward to make sure not even a letter was changed.And last but not least if you don't believe his Word How do you call yourself a Christian? that's like saying I'm a vegetarian but I don't believe in vegetablesAnd lastly did you ever hear of a little thing called the Dead Sea Scrolls many written thousands of years before Christ and they are virtually identical to the current (O.T.)Bible scriptures. Of course the New testament was written during the time of Christ and shortley after because thats when he taught it.
 

Wise Haven

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What are you talking about you have it backwards the bible has no sect, denomination or religion that is mans creation the Bible is simply the Word of God without mans twist before you say you don't believe in something don't you think you otta learn about first??? Or maybe its just easier to buy the old argument awe men have completely changed it anyway. If so you are wrong many of us study straight straight from the original manuscripts and languages and the changes could be counted on one hand and are very well known.Furthermore did you know there were certain verses locked in with hidden names of God spelled forward and backward to make sure not even a letter was changed.And last but not least if you don't believe his Word How do you call yourself a Christian? that's like saying I'm a vegetarian but I don't believe in vegetablesAnd lastly did you ever hear of a little thing called the Dead Sea Scrolls many written thousands of years before Christ and they are virtually identical to the current (O.T.)Bible scriptures. Of course the New testament was written during the time of Christ and shortley after because thats when he taught it.
This is my understanding of the questions about OT and NT:Hebrews 8:7-137For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."[c] 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 

Nova

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The contract (covenant) between God & man is different in the OT vs NT. In the OT, it was do these things & don't do those; and you will be blessed or not depending on your choices. It was more external. It dealt more with actions alone, vs actions plus attitude & motivation.Whereas the NT bypasses the legalistic requirements under the law. We are free to do pretty much anything-as long as it honors God & shows love for our neighbor. On the surface, it seems easier. But it requires not just a change of external actions, but a change of the heart. Thankfully, the Spirit empowers us to fulfill this.
 

Wise Haven

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The contract (covenant) between God & man is different in the OT vs NT. In the OT, it was do these things & don't do those; and you will be blessed or not depending on your choices. It was more external. It dealt more with actions alone, vs actions plus attitude & motivation.Whereas the NT bypasses the legalistic requirements under the law. We are free to do pretty much anything-as long as it honors God & shows love for our neighbor. On the surface, it seems easier. But it requires not just a change of external actions, but a change of the heart. Thankfully, the Spirit empowers us to fulfill this.
I agree Nova.I see the OT as a message to mankind that is the same as how we would speak to our children as toddlers. It has to be black and white and objective rather than subjective.The NT is more subjective and conceptual. The way we would speak to our children aged 5-10 years of age. An example of this is how the ten commandments become 6: Jesus says love they neighbour which combines 5 commandments into one.My genuine question about the OT and NT tries to ascertain if the OT is still fully valid or if it has been superceded by the NT in entirety.Are we guilty of cherry picking the bits we like from the OT and denying others?Or, as in the NT has the OT been totally replace by "The New Covenant":bible:Hebrews 8:7-137For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:"The time is coming, declares the Lord,when I will make a new covenantwith the house of Israeland with the house of Judah.9It will not be like the covenantI made with their forefatherswhen I took them by the handto lead them out of Egypt,because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israelafter that time, declares the Lord.I will put my laws in their mindsand write them on their hearts.I will be their God,and they will be my people.11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest.12For I will forgive their wickednessand will remember their sins no more."[c]13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 

Nova

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My genuine question about the OT and NT tries to ascertain if the OT is still fully valid or if it has been superceded by the NT in entirety.Are we guilty of cherry picking the bits we like from the OT and denying others?Or, as in the NT has the OT been totally replace by "The New Covenant":bible:
Ugh, I'm a slow typer & this will be a long answer. Yes, the new covenant supercedes the old. That was Paul's point in his letter to the Hebrews. We have greater authority (and also greater responsibility.) Does this mean I ignore the OT? No. Because it teaches me about who God is, what he likes & what has worked (or not worked) in the past. I have alot to learn from studying it.When I was a young Christian, I did cherry pick the promises from the OT. If I do a certain thing, then I expect a certain outcome. But over the years, my outlook has changed. For one thing, as a Christian I can make the correct choices & sometimes still have a negative outcome. Sure, many times bad things happen because we sin. But that isn't always the case. Because persecution is a fact of the Christian walk. Overall, I strive to do what is right, simply because it is right.Second, my actions are driven by a relationship with God. I may follow parts of the law, but not because I expect to earn God's favor. It is because I want to please Him. Or honor Him. The same way I want to please the people in my life that I love. It is a subtle difference.
 

Wise Haven

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Ugh, I'm a slow typer & this will be a long answer. Yes, the new covenant supercedes the old. That was Paul's point in his letter to the Hebrews. We have greater authority (and also greater responsibility.) Does this mean I ignore the OT? No. Because it teaches me about who God is, what he likes & what has worked (or not worked) in the past. I have alot to learn from studying it.When I was a young Christian, I did cherry pick the promises from the OT. If I do a certain thing, then I expect a certain outcome. But over the years, my outlook has changed. For one thing, as a Christian I can make the correct choices & sometimes still have a negative outcome. Sure, many times bad things happen because we sin. But that isn't always the case. Because persecution is a fact of the Christian walk. Overall, I strive to do what is right, simply because it is right.Second, my actions are driven by a relationship with God. I may follow parts of the law, but not because I expect to earn God's favor. It is because I want to please Him. Or honor Him. The same way I want to please the people in my life that I love. It is a subtle difference.
Thanks again Nova,I understand following God's law. But I cannot understand carrying out actions to please, or honour God. I think God has given us the ability to carry out our actions because the actions are right.In other words we have been blessed with the knowledge of right and wrong and have the choice to (morally) carry them out without the threat of punishment. Our decisions are based on morality not the fear of punishment by God in the hereafter. We, therefore behave morally as moral people, not out of fear of retribution.This concept goes back to the garden of Eden. We have chosen to have free (tempted by the serpent)will over blind instinctual obeying of God. Therefore we all now have individual responsibility for our actions.If we truthfully try to be moral - even though we may fail - we cannot be judged on results, only by our true intentions.:angel10:
 

Wise Haven

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To carry this concepte further;I think the OT was about following God's rules because God said so.The message of Jesus, to me, is think for yourself and strive to do what is right because you understand what is right morally and not through fear of punishment. This is the difference between to OT and NT. The OT is historical, while the NT is a moral foundation.I have a problem with modern evangelism because it seems to be based on dishonesty. The process of spreading the word of Christ seems to be conditional.eg. I give you support and help but it is conditional that you accept Christ.I believe that Christian missionary work should not be conditional or in expectation of conversions as payment for support.Christian mission should be about providing succour, help and support to those outside the church with no strings attached.It should be about leadership - setting an example that people can follow or not - providing unconditional, positive regard is an example of leadership and example by itself. Conversion, not by condition but by free will with a positive leadership
 

Christina

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I dont know where you get this Have you not read that Christ came not to change one bit of the Law but to fulfill it? He only replaced the ordinances and there is a difference between ordinances and Laws We are as subject to the Law today as we were then. The O.T. is the N.T concealed(hidden) the N.T. is O.T. revealed (opened) there are many prophecies in Daniel, Isiah ect that have not been fulfilled yet. The fact that we are now saved by grace, rather than having to follow an ordinance of sacrificing a lamb changes nothing. When you gain a deeper understanding of the Bible you will see this clearly for example it says of the End it will be as the beginning as it was in Noah's day. Why would it say this if the OT was null and void? And you were not expected to read study it? Do you know what happened in Noahs day??The Fulfillment of the Law 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Everything is not accomplished until the End 7th trump when Christ says it is done!!!19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.Dont be a fool and mistakenly assume the O.T. is not in effect.
 

Wise Haven

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I dont know where you get this Have you not read that Christ came not to change one bit of the Law but to fulfill it? He only replaced the ordinances and there is a difference between ordinances and Laws We are as subject to the Law today as we were then. The O.T. is the N.T concealed(hidden) the N.T. is O.T. revealed (opened) there are many prophecies in Daniel, Isiah ect that have not been fulfilled yet. The fact that we are now saved by grace, rather than having to follow an ordinance of sacrificing a lamb changes nothing. When you gain a deeper understanding of the Bible you will see this clearly for example it says of the End it will be as the beginning as it was in Noah's day. Why would it say this if the OT was null and void? And you were not expected to read study it? Do you know what happened in Noahs day??The Fulfillment of the Law 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Everything is not accomplished until the End 7th trump when Christ says it is done!!!19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.Dont be a fool and mistakenly assume the O.T. is not in effect.
Leviticus(duties for worship and holy living) and Deuteronomy(The laws and first contract/covenant) deal with the laws and ordinances you speak of but Hebrews below seems to abrogate that.Hebrews 8:7-137For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:"The time is coming, declares the Lord,when I will make a new covenantwith the house of Israeland with the house of Judah.9It will not be like the covenantI made with their forefatherswhen I took them by the handto lead them out of Egypt,because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israelafter that time, declares the Lord.I will put my laws in their mindsand write them on their hearts.I will be their God,and they will be my people.11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest.12For I will forgive their wickednessand will remember their sins no more."[c]13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 

Wise Haven

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As I see it, according to Hebrews 8:7-13, the covenant(laws)in Deuteronomy are being made obsolete and not the ordinances (duties for worship and holy living) in Leviticus - these seem to still stand.I am not being obtuse.
 

Christina

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Your not being obtuse just not seeing all there is to see The Old Covenant is not out of existence because God promised Abraham that his children and their inheritance would become as numerous as the stars of the heavens and the sands of the sea, and continue forever.Hebrews 8:7 "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."There was no fault in that first covenant, other then that first covenant was to become a type of what would come to pass later. It was not God that broke any part of that covenant, but it was man that broke away from that covenant with God. That is why we need repentance, for all men fall short and need repentance. Hebrews 8:8 "For finding fault with them, He saith, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"This promise was stated in Jeremiah 31:31; "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:"Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My People."Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord:' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."This is an Old Testament promise that has not come to pass yet, Hebrews 8:9 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their father in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord."Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:"We read this from Jeremiah 31 earlier, and this event has not come to pass yet. This is looking forward to the Millennium age, as recorded in Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48. When we look around the world today, even the Christian world, the people are Biblically illiterate. When this time comes God will no longer call the House of Israel, "not My people", but He will claim them for Himself. Hebrews 8:11 "And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest."This is talking about the Millennium age, the time when Satan will be thrown in the pit, and all evil rudiments of this age are eliminated. It is talking about a time when all people will be changed into their spiritual bodies, and there will be no sickness nor deformities, and all souls will have full understanding. What did God say that He would put in all peoples minds, from the least to the greatest? The Law, God's law that is unchanging, so don't you dare tell me that the law is done away with, for that will be the one thing that controls all person's actions, that law will be the core of their thoughts and desires. Today we need teachers to teach us of the laws of God, and what we should and should not do nor say, but in the Millennium age there will be no need for the law to be taught, for everyone will know God's law. It will be as natural to them as putting on your shoes when you leave you house, or turning the key when you start your car. Then what will be taught in the Millennium age then if every one knows God's law? Discipline and obedience, for it will seem that God's children have always been very inadequate in following the laws that God has given them. We seem to be all wrapped up in man's laws of precedence today that change with the morals of the day. To find out what this Millennium age will be like, we must go to Ezekiel 44:23; "And they shall teach My People the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean." Ezekiel 44:24 "And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths."With the laws the focus in their minds, the object will be to keep those laws, and be able to understand the difference between the clean and the unclean, and this take disciplineHebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."This verse is directed to that Millennium age, the age of teaching discipline and obedience. God is going to be more then fare to those that were unrighteous in this world age of the flesh. God is going to be merciful to all of those unrighteous people, but we all fall short of the laws of God. This is that time when every knee shall bow to Christ on that first day of the Millennium, all of the people that fell short will see the sins they have committed and be ashamed of them. However this is not to say that they will not fall away again by the end of the Millennium age when Satan is released again to try and test those people again. In the Millennium age you will also be given a choice and free will to go the way that you will go. For it will be by their works only [of the unsaved] at the end of the Millennium age that God will judge you, for the age of Grace that we are in now will end with the return of Jesus Christ. The time of the writing of names in the Lamb's "book of life" will be over at the end and close of this age of the flesh. Then those that have there names written there will never be judged by any sin, but they will receive their eternal rewards on that first day of the Millennium age, at the sounding of the seventh trumpet.Hebrews 8:13 "In that He saith, "A New Covenant," He hath made the first old, Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."Remember that we have been talking about an Old Covenant and a New Covenant. The Old Covenant was a tent that went all the way back to the original tabernacle with Moses in the wilderness. Moses built the original tent out of cloth that rotted away after years, with all it's fancy trim. That tent was symbolic, but what is the New Covenant? Christ said, "destroy this Temple, and I will rebuild it in three days." That Temple is made up of both His body, and the many membered body that is made up of every soul that believes on Christ, and has the blood of Christ covering their sins through repentance. My friend, this New Covenant will never get old, for it is an eternal Covenant. It is the only eternal thing that there is, and it pertains only to our Heavenly Father and those that overcame. No matter what man builds or establishes, it gets old and worn out. It will age even if it is made of stone, because the pollutions that man makes will soon eat the stone away. But God, in the body of Christ built a temple that shall never age, and it shall refurbish itself through repentance, in that when you repent, the aged pollution of the guilt of sin is washed clean, and marked paid in full by the blood of Christ.None of this in any way replaces the O.T. in fact we have to refer back to the O.T. to see what the prochecys/promises were
 

Wise Haven

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Dear KrissThank you for that. I was reading that to mean that the first coming of Christ was to usher in the New covenant.In deference to your experience and this interpretation I think it wise(that I) re-read Jeremiah and Hebrews. I always thought Ezekiel to be an apocalyptic revelation similiar to John's Revelation both pertaining to the second coming.Regards, WHStandby for more questions:angel1: