Is there relationship with the Godhead, if we don't come under God's authority?

Axehead · Mar 13, 2013

When I ask, "Can we have relationship with the God without coming under His authority, I am not talking about a distant relationship of "believing" He exists (as do devils) or having sporadic conversations with God as did Cain.

I am speaking about a vital, intimate, harmonic relationship with the Lord by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, God spoke to Cain and Cain refused to come under God's authority. In that respect, God speaks to many. But that is not the relationship I am speaking about.

I am speaking about being a co-heir with Christ as an adopted son.

I believe all those who refused to come under the Lord's authority in the OT could not have intimate relationship with God and ultimately were destroyed in the wilderness (for instance). Relationship must be on God's terms, not ours. We should not be deceived into thinking that if we believe He exists and are receiving His benefits (as even sinners do), that we are somehow "made safe".

I believe, to receive His forgiveness for your sins, one must receive Christ (John 1:12). Christ is the "power" to become a son of God. Christ is the personification of mercy and forgiveness. The attributes of God are not just "hanging" up in the sky just over your head and you just pick which one you want. You cannot separate the attributes of God from God. So, in order to receive forgiveness for your sins from Christ, you must receive Christ and when you are making the choice to receive Christ you are making the choice to come under His authority in your life.

It is the authority of Jesus Christ being welcomed in our life that gives us security. Security is not found in creeds, or prayers, or works. It is only found in Christ.

Again, we cannot divorce promises in the Bible from the Person of Jesus Christ. And if we want Jesus Christ in our lives, we must ascent to His terms of relationship, not our own.

There are countless examples of those in the OT and NT that would not submit to the authority of God in their lives. And the first one, was Lucifer.

Coming under His authority makes way for every provision we need: Security, Wholeness, Protection, Love, Hope, Freedom, etc.

Refusing to come under His authority for the basis of relationship brings: doubt, unbelief, insecurity, hopelessness, condemnation, successful attacks from the Adversary, hardness of heart, and bondage.

Axehead

JB_Reformed Baptist · Mar 13, 2013

Axehead said:
When I ask, "Can we have relationship with the God without coming under His authority, I am not talking about a distant relationship of "believing" He exists (as do devils) or having sporadic conversations with God as did Cain.

I am speaking about a vital, intimate, harmonic relationship with the Lord by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, God spoke to Cain and Cain refused to come under God's authority. In that respect, God speaks to many. But that is not the relationship I am speaking about.

I am speaking about being a co-heir with Christ as an adopted son.

I believe all those who refused to come under the Lord's authority in the OT could not have intimate relationship with God and ultimately were destroyed in the wilderness (for instance). Relationship must be on God's terms, not ours. We should not be deceived into thinking that if we believe He exists and are receiving His benefits (as even sinners do), that we are somehow "made safe".

I believe, to receive His forgiveness for your sins, one must receive Christ (John 1:12). Christ is the "power" to become a son of God. Christ is the personification of mercy and forgiveness. The attributes of God are not just "hanging" up in the sky just over your head and you just pick which one you want. You cannot separate the attributes of God from God. So, in order to receive forgiveness for your sins from Christ, you must receive Christ and when you are making the choice to receive Christ you are making the choice to come under His authority in your life.

It is the authority of Jesus Christ being welcomed in our life that gives us security. Security is not found in creeds, or prayers, or works. It is only found in Christ.

Again, we cannot divorce promises in the Bible from the Person of Jesus Christ. And if we want Jesus Christ in our lives, we must ascent to His terms of relationship, not our own.

There are countless examples of those in the OT and NT that would not submit to the authority of God in their lives. And the first one, was Lucifer.

Coming under His authority makes way for every provision we need: Security, Wholeness, Protection, Love, Hope, Freedom, etc.

Refusing to come under His authority for the basis of relationship brings: doubt, unbelief, insecurity, hopelessness, condemnation, successful attacks from the Adversary, hardness of heart, and bondage.

Axehead

Encouraging read, thanks.

aspen · Mar 14, 2013

i enjoyed reading the OP, as well.

mjrhealth · Mar 14, 2013

Well said.......

In All His Love

jiggyfly · Mar 14, 2013

Good post Axehead, could you specify what you consider to be Christ's authority?

Axehead · Mar 14, 2013

jiggyfly said:
Good post Axehead, could you specify what you consider to be Christ's authority?

Thank you to all for the encouraging comments. Jiggyfly, that is a great question and I look forward to contributing some more to this topic. Bear with me because I have a very busy day, today, so I won't be able to get back to this too soon.

In the meantime I encourage others to keep contributing or asking questions.

Blessings to all,
Axehead

williemac · Mar 14, 2013

I have a bit of confusion with this Op question. At first glance it sounds logical, and even reasonable. I mean why would we say no to such a question? However, it occurs to me that the only eason anyone could be posing such a question is that we actually cannot find any scriptural reference to the effect that in order to come to Christ, we must come under His authority. I say that because if there were such a reference, the question would be real dumb, wouldn't it! It wouldn't need asking. It would be like asking that if we come to Christ we must come to Him in faith, wouldn't we? Well, duh, yeh. The bible says so.

So in asking the OP question, it reveals that this condition is not actually given in scripture in the exact wording that is in the OP. So I wonder...just what is the agenda in the question?

In the first place, one comes to Jesus because he/she has acknowledged the gospel. In the gospel we find several basic truths about God and about ourselves. We see that we are sinners. We see that He will judge sinners. We see that He died for sin so that we can be set free from this judgment through the forgiveness of sin, and accept the free gift of life that He is offering. We hopefully also see that the point of erternal life is to know Him (John17:3). And finally, we will hopefully learn of the new life that comes into us through the new birth.

Furthermore, if one has no interest in knowing God, he will not likely be interested in coming to Him for much of anything.

The point I am making is that all these things that one sees and learns, include the obvious... that God has authority. It is His authority that condemns sinners. No one has ever come to Him without the acknowledgment of His authority. Is that not enough?

So where are we going with this OP question? So far, I have my reservations.

The question by Jiggfly as seen in post#6, is a real good question.

Axehead · Mar 14, 2013

Here is where we will be going. He is called Lord of Lords and King of Kings for a reason. What then will be our relationship (pertaining to His authority) in our lives?

Wilie, we learn about His authority as we walk with Him. I am not saying that anyone knows about His authority when they first come to Him. We come to Him as Savior, not as King.

But, then in walking with Him and becoming a disciple, is it important to come under His authority in order to maintain relationship with Him? Is it important to carry out His agenda in our lives or to ignore it?

Does that clear some things up? I hope you and everyone are thinking about the relevancy of the Christian coming under His authority or the Christian refusing to come under His authority? Yes, I thought Jiggy's question was the exact question to answer. How is His authority manifested to us and I will add, does He expect a response from us, or can we just ignore Him?

There is more than just coming to Him. We must maintain relationship with Him and it must be maintained on His terms, not ours. So far, I hope you can agree with everything I have said?

Axehead

Rex · Mar 14, 2013

I agree to become a bond servant you must first serve your 6 years as a servant. Then your ear may be opened against the door.

12 “If your
brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you
six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
13 And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed; 14 you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the Lord your God has blessed you with, you shall give to him. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today. 16 And
if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’
because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. 18 It
shall not seem hard to you when you send him away free from you; for he
has been worth a double hired servant in serving you six years. Then
the Lord your God will bless you in all that you do.

21 “Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: 2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. 3 If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If
his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall
go out by himself. 5 But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then
his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to
the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with
an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Isa 50:5
Psalm 40:6

Let me hear from you
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16944-matthew-2531-40-let-me-hear-from-u/

Have you stood on high? Have you crossed the Jordan following your Shepherd?
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17779-would-the-real-elijah-please-come-forth/page-2#entry186181

Are you now brethren or the sheep of his hand
Hebrews 6:1-3

Axehead · Mar 15, 2013

Rex said:
I agree to become a bond servant you must first serve your 6 years as a servant. Then your ear may be opened against the door.

12 “If your
brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you
six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
13 And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed; 14 you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the Lord your God has blessed you with, you shall give to him. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today. 16 And
if it happens that he says to you, ‘I will not go away from you,’
because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. 18 It
shall not seem hard to you when you send him away free from you; for he
has been worth a double hired servant in serving you six years. Then
the Lord your God will bless you in all that you do.

21 “Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: 2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. 3 If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If
his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall
go out by himself. 5 But if the servant plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then
his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to
the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with
an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Isa 50:5
Psalm 40:6

Let me hear from you
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16944-matthew-2531-40-let-me-hear-from-u/

Have you stood on high? Have you crossed the Jordan following your Shepherd?
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17779-would-the-real-elijah-please-come-forth/page-2#entry186181

Are you now brethren or the sheep of his hand
Hebrews 6:1-3

Hi Rex,

Those are very good scriptures regarding the "bondservant". And yes, we are bondservants of Christ.

Paul said that when we were baptized, we arose from the water to "walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:4). He goes on in that same chapter to describe our new relationship to Christ as one of a bond servant or a slave (vv, 18-22). That means that we have agreed to submit ourselves totally to the authority of Christ. A slave is not free to make his own decisions regarding how he conducts himself in his daily life.

"I think also that I should acknowledge that I am myself very much involved in the situation I here deplore. As Ezra in his mighty prayer of intercession included himself among the wrongdoers, so do I. "0 my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens." Any hard word spoken here against others must in simple honesty return upon my own head. I too have been guilty. This is written with the hope that we all may turn unto the Lord our God and sin no more against Him.

Let me state the cause of my burden. It is this: Jesus Christ has today almost no authority at all among the groups that call themselves by His name. By these I mean not the Roman Catholics nor the liberals, nor the various quasi-Christian cults. I do mean Protestant churches generally, and I include those that protest the loudest that they are in spiritual descent from our Lord and His apostles, namely, the evangelicals.

It is a basic doctrine of the New Testament that after His resurrection the Man Jesus was declared by God to be both Lord and Christ, and that He was invested by the Father with absolute Lordship over the church which is His Body. All authority is His in heaven and in earth. In His own proper time He will exert it to the full, but during this period in history He allows this authority to be challenged or ignored. And just now it is being challenged by the world and ignored by the church.

The present position of Christ in the gospel churches may be likened to that of a king in a limited, constitutional monarchy. The king (sometimes depersonalized by the term "the Crown") is in such a country no more than a traditional rallying point, a pleasant symbol of unity and loyalty much like a flag or a national anthem. He is lauded, feted and supported, but his real authority is small. Nominally he is head over all, but in every crisis someone else makes the decisions. On formal occasions he appears in his royal attire to deliver the tame, colorless speech put into his mouth by the real rulers of the country. The whole thing may be no more than good-natured make-believe, but it is rooted in antiquity, it is a lot of fun and no one wants to give it up.

Among the gospel churches Christ is now in fact little more than a beloved symbol. "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" is the church's national anthem and the cross is her official flag, but in the week-by-week services of the church and the day-by-day conduct of her members someone else, not Christ, makes the decisions. Under proper circumstances Christ is allowed to say "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden" or "Let not your heart be troubled," but when the speech is finished someone else takes over. Those in actual authority decide the moral standards of the church, as well as all objectives and all methods employed to achieve them. Because of long and meticulous organization it is now possible for the youngest pastor just out of seminary to have more actual authority in a church than Jesus Christ has." A.W. Tozer, THE WANING AUTHORITY OF CHRIST IN THE CHURCHES

williemac · Mar 15, 2013

Axehead said:
Here is where we will be going. He is called Lord of Lords and King of Kings for a reason. What then will be our relationship (pertaining to His authority) in our lives?

Wilie, we learn about His authority as we walk with Him. I am not saying that anyone knows about His authority when they first come to Him. We come to Him as Savior, not as King.

But, then in walking with Him and becoming a disciple, is it important to come under His authority in order to maintain relationship with Him? Is it important to carry out His agenda in our lives or to ignore it?

Does that clear some things up? I hope you and everyone are thinking about the relevancy of the Christian coming under His authority or the Christian refusing to come under His authority? Yes, I thought Jiggy's question was the exact question to answer. How is His authority manifested to us and I will add, does He expect a response from us, or can we just ignore Him?

There is more than just coming to Him. We must maintain relationship with Him and it must be maintained on His terms, not ours. So far, I hope you can agree with everything I have said?

Axehead

I can agree with what you are saying, but I disagree with what you are calling it. We ARE under His authority...period. It is not our decision that makes this so. We will all sit at the judgment seat of Christ. If we were not under His authority, this would not be the case. What you are referring to is a relationship. Jeus said if we abid in Him, we would bear fruit. Bearing fruit is a result of relationship, not rulership. Contrary to what many say, we do not make Jesus lord. He IS Lord.

We are His offspring. This may be a hard concept for some to grasp, but this is the reality of who we are. Our destiny is to become like Him in nature. It has already begun in seed form, through the new man. What is required is knowledge and understanding. Knowing the truth is what sets us free. We will naturally conform to the image that is in our heart. Our self image is what will make us be like Him. What a man thinks in his heart..so IS he.

The mistake, in my opinion, is to make this a matter of the head and not the heart. By that, I mean making it a matter of man's effort rather than his instinct. What one will know, learn and be taught, is what will bear fruit. What is at stake is the motive that is promoted in the plan to become more like Christ.

Believe me, I have had my joy and peace diminished through wrong motivation, and I have witnessed this in so many others as well.

I'm sorry, but work is beckoning me, and I have not read your most recent post. I will do that later. Blessings, Howie

Axehead · Mar 15, 2013

williemac said:
I can agree with what you are saying, but I disagree with what you are calling it. We ARE under His authority...period. It is not our decision that makes this so. We will all sit at the judgment seat of Christ. If we were not under His authority, this would not be the case. What you are referring to is a relationship. Jeus said if we abid in Him, we would bear fruit. Bearing fruit is a result of relationship, not rulership. Contrary to what many say, we do not make Jesus lord. He IS Lord.

That is a very interesting take, Willie.

a. I am referring to relationship, that is true.
b. I am asking if submitting to His authority (coming under it) is important in order to maintain that relationship.

When I say "coming under", I imply that we don't have to "come under" or submit. Yes, He is King. Yes, He has and IS authority. But, He is not a dictator, right?

Can we abide in Jesus if we refuse His authority in our lives? If we refuse to obey the leading the of the Holy Spirt, can we abide in Him?

williemac said:
We are His offspring. This may be a hard concept for some to grasp, but this is the reality of who we are. Our destiny is to become like Him in nature. It has already begun in seed form, through the new man. What is required is knowledge and understanding.

Is any obedience to the Holy Spirit's leading required?

Notice that Jesus does not put "knowing" (knowledge) first, but the doing is what He emphasizes, firstly.
John_7:17 If any man (1) will do his will, (2) he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

We are taught in our culture not to do something before we understand and know all about it. But, that is because we have no one to rely on except the knowledge we gain about that particular subject. I am not going to buy a certain car until I have researched it thoroughly. I won't take someone's word on most things until I have researched. This is true for most thinking people especially if the decision is going to cost them in terms of time or money.

But, we are not walking the Christian walk on our own, right? We have the Holy Spirit. That is how we are His offspring.

We are not our own, anymore. So, when the Holy Spirit tells us to DO something, we don't go an research, we obey.

That is John 7:17 - If we do, then we will know. Completely opposite of how our natural mind is trained in this world.

But, in order to fulfill John 7:17 we must willingly submit to the Holy Spirit's voice. That is what I mean when I say, "Come under His authority". The authority of God's voice in our life.

williemac said:
Knowing the truth is what sets us free. We will naturally conform to the image that is in our heart. Our self image is what will make us be like Him. What a man thinks in his heart..so IS he.

That is true, that knowledge sets us free, but not acting upon knowledge will not set anyone free. The jail cell door can be open and we can have the knowledge that we are pardoned, but if we don't get up and walk out, then we are still in jail. We are not experientially free. As you read the words of Jesus you will see a balance between the "knowing" and the "doing". But the doing comes out of knowing His voice and what He is commanding us to do. Not thinking up in our own mind what a Christian SHOULD be doing. That is being led by the flesh. Obeying His voice is coming under His authority (willingly submitting to His voice) and being led by the Spirit.

williemac said:
The mistake, in my opinion, is to make this a matter of the head and not the heart. By that, I mean making it a matter of man's effort rather than his instinct. What one will know, learn and be taught, is what will bear fruit. What is at stake is the motive that is promoted in the plan to become more like Christ.

So, I think I have explained and answered that concern of yours. Especially in the previous answer. I am most definitely talking about the heart.

williemac said:
Believe me, I have had my joy and peace diminished through wrong motivation, and I have witnessed this in so many others as well.

I'm sorry, but work is beckoning me, and I have not read your most recent post. I will do that later. Blessings, Howie

Yes, I touched on that. It is only by being led by the Spirit that we will be fulfilling His will in our life. Not by thinking up in our own mind what I SHOULD be DOING.

We don't want to be a Martha in the kitchen, trying to impress the Lord and then pointing out to Him all the other Believers who are not DOING anything. Mary was sitting at His feet (submitting to Him, coming under His authority) and listening for His word. Martha was acting on her own word (mind).

God bless you, brother.
Axehead

John_8:32 · Mar 15, 2013

We are under His authority at all times, just maybe not willingly. The Beast and the False Prophet are under Christ's authority...

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The armies of the Beast are under Christ's authority...

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Devil is under Christ's authority...

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

In every case Satan only does what God allows him to do.

I think the real question is "Are we willing to submit to Christ in all?"

williemac · Mar 15, 2013

I still say that it is important that we have the right motive for what we do and how we treat others. The hard way is to do these because we have to. The easy way is because we want to, or even if we don't even have to think about it. I feel that the very notion of submitting to His authority has "have to" written all over it. It implies that we are possibly not on board with His will. It implies that we are asked to behave unnaturally. I don't think this is the way that God has in mind. I think He wants us to see ourselves as His and of Him, so that we will begin to behave accordingly out of that kind of self image.

One can train a dog to do things, and even to refrain from barking. This takes work. But another more effective way to get it to not bark would be to change the dna. Cats don't bark. The sooner we really get it, that we are a new creation, made in His nature, and see ourselves as righteous rather than as sinners, the sooner we will begin to bear the fruit of these facts. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

Much of my character is a reflection of my earthly father. It is natural for me. If I have to submit to a certain command or instruction, it will be because it is not natural for me to want to do it. On the other hand, we don't have to be told to do what comes natural. It just happens. This is why it is called fruit. One must first, be the apple tree, to bear apples.

I think that this is how it is designed to play out in us. There is far less stress in our being, that way. Fruit happens!

Axehead · Mar 16, 2013

Did Jesus have the authority to tell the Rich Young Ruler to sell all that he had and come and follow Him?

Did the Rich Young Ruler choose to come under His authority or not?

Can we choose to not come under His authority (come into agreement with His word to us)?

Does the Holy Spirit give born again Christians suggestions or commands?

Act 9:10-11 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Was this a suggestion from the Lord to Ananias?

If Ananias ignored the Lord, would that be rebelling against His authority, (refusing to come under it, to come into agreement with the Lord)?

How do you respond to His voice in your life? Do you willingly come under His authority or do you ignore it?

williemac · Mar 16, 2013

Axehead said:
Does the Holy Spirit give born again Christians suggestions or commands?

Why would we accept that there are only two possible headings? There are instructions, orders, and directions, to name a few more. There are words of comfort, encouragement, edification. But I'm not sure why anyone would feel that a person would not follow the Lord's leading if he knew for sure that it was the Lord's leading. Funny, but we never think we are in violation. It is always those other people. We cut ourselves all the slack we need but shorten the rope for everyone else. I say "we", but obviously I have broken away from this practice, as much as possible. I'm not accusing anyone here. Just a caution.

Jesus, in Rev.3:20,21, knocked on the door of His lukewarm church, asking if He could come into any person who hears Him and opens the door (through the infilling of the Holy Spirit), He then remarked that He would sup with them and they with He. What is His priority? Relationship. What does He do? Ask!

I ask this: do parents give suggestions, or commands, to their children? How many parents would use either of these words from their own perspective?

Instead of exhorting others to come under His authority, I would rather inspire them to come under His wing, trust Him, be as children and depend on Him for support, comfort, leading, guiding, direction, fulfillment, love, and strength. If we want to use the relationship card, then why would authority be the first connection we think of? In the interest of first things first, it is way down the list. In fact, if all these other things are happening, then authority will likely never be an issue.....just saying...

Rex · Mar 16, 2013

williemac said:
Jesus, in Rev.3:20,21, knocked on the door of His lukewarm church, asking if He could come into any person who hears Him and opens the door (through the infilling of the Holy Spirit), He then remarked that He would sup with them and they with He. What is His priority? Relationship. What does He do? Ask!

williemac I do believe you don't do justice to the verse you just mentioned. The list of "orders to DO" from the new testament to is so extensive i could not possible track them all. So the problem is not the scripture the problem is out lined in your quote above, a blindness for the clear SUBJECT.

Rev 3:18-19 is the order the subject

18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the
door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Axehead · Mar 16, 2013

williemac said:
Why would we accept that there are only two possible headings? There are instructions, orders, and directions, to name a few more.

Well, God's heart can manifest in comforting and encouraging words, that is for sure. But we are speaking about commands and directives versus suggestions from the King of Kings. There are numerous examples in the Bible and in your life and my life and everyone who is reading this that we don't always follow the Lord's voice to our heart.

When it comes to God's directive voice, I personally do not see any "suggestions". God does not give suggestions. A Shepherd leads. He knows where He wants His sheep to go. His comforting and encouraging voice is altogether, different from His authoritative directives and instructions to us. Have you ever seen a shepherd trying to lead his sheep across a busy road? I once saw this in Israel, and I can tell you he was not barking out suggestions. Using a combination of his staff and voice he was definitely speaking with authority and knew exactly where he wanted those sheep to go. Interestingly, there were some that were not heeding his voice and then he had to employ his rod/staff.

Look at all the VERBS in Rex's post.

williemac said:
There are words of comfort, encouragement, edification. But I'm not sure why anyone would feel that a person would not follow the Lord's leading if he knew for sure that it was the Lord's leading. Funny, but we never think we are in violation. It is always those other people. We cut ourselves all the slack we need but shorten the rope for everyone else. I say "we", but obviously I have broken away from this practice, as much as possible. I'm not accusing anyone here. Just a caution.

Jesus, in Rev.3:20,21, knocked on the door of His lukewarm church, asking if He could come into any person who hears Him and opens the door (through the infilling of the Holy Spirit), He then remarked that He would sup with them and they with He. What is His priority? Relationship. What does He do? Ask!

I can show you verses where He does not ask and He "commands men everywhere to repent". You know that it is possible to take one verse and build a doctrine, but we must stay in balance and recognize the other Words that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. We cannot take some scriptures to the detriment of others in order to support our theological positions. "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve", comes to mind.

Jesus does use verbs like Ask, Seek and Knock in the Gospels and I would suggest (excuse the pun) to you that they are directives, commands and not suggestions, though men treat them as suggestions.

williemac said:
I ask this: do parents give suggestions, or commands, to their children? How many parents would use either of these words from their own perspective?

Parents give instructions and directives and commands. "Get out of the street, now a car is coming". This is not a suggestion. "Do not put your finger in the toaster". Again, not a suggestion. "Go to bed, now". Did your parents never give you
directives?

williemac said:
Instead of exhorting others to come under His authority, I would rather inspire them to come under His wing, trust Him, be as children and depend on Him for support, comfort, leading, guiding, direction, fulfillment, love, and strength. If we want to use the relationship card, then why would authority be the first connection we think of? In the interest of first things first, it is way down the list. In fact, if all these other things are happening, then authority will likely never be an issue.....just saying...

In order to come under the Lord's wing, one must respect His authority and choose to come under it, otherwise they will have no interest in coming under His wing. To come under His wing is to draw close to Him (not just look for His blessings), and look to Him for all their security and all one's needs and if His authority is not respected then one will have a very difficult time being in right relationship with the Lord. If His authority is not respected, His commands will be treated like suggestions.

Did the Holy Spirit through James, say "Be ye DOERS of the Word and not just HEARERS only, deceiving yourselves?"

We have all done this. We hear the Lord's voice and act as if it was only a suggestion. More likely, we know it was a command/directive, but our flesh got the upper hand that time.

Has the nature of God changed? Does He still command us not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as Adam and Eve, did? Does He command us to walk in the Spirit and not the Flesh or is that merely a suggestion?

Let's look at some of the commands of Jesus that we will only carry out if we willingly agree to come under His authority.
Coming under His authority, is coming into relationship with Him on His terms and maintaining the relationship on His terms.

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27, John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10, 12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying, fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew 9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16. (Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28 (Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9, 13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26. Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38 and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew 18:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-27
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49

Axehead

williemac · Mar 16, 2013

That is a long reply. I will not bother to make an equally long comment on each point. Only to say that more than some of the references refer to the command to come to Him for salvation in the first place, so are not directed at the believer.... and others are just flat out -out of context. As well, many of the examples given are not called commands and do not come across as such. For example, " Wait for My return" , or "as, seek, and knock". These are commands? Hey, if we only have two categories..suggestion or command, then we are limited big time to accurately consider His words. I am not impressed at the tactic of throwing so many passages in the mix that it gives the impression of proving something that many of them do not support.

I do agree that His terms are the priority. I would never argue that point. But along with His terms is the grace that allows for our weaknesses, room to grow, room to fail, room to learn, room to improve, etc. And last but not least is His promises that go along with His terms. Paul's letters, for example, did not usually, if ever, begin with the exhortations to live a godly life, nor were these the only parts to his letters. He had a history and a policy of first giving assurances to his readers, giving all the good news about who we are and what our destinty is, demonstrating the power of Jesus to be the author and finisher of our faith, and ikn one place revealing the fact that though a man's works are burned, he himself will still be saved.

The exhortations were balanced with the message of grace. So many times we see people coming into these threads with nothing but threats and warnings that apply if a person fails to measure up to their impression of a given standard.

So, while in principle we are certainly restricted to be in relationship on His terms, we must allow the balance to be in place concerning these terms. Under the law, commands were enforced and motivated through threats of punishment, death, or loss, and promises of reward for compliance. Under the terms of relationship that Jesus has established, this enforcement has been abolished, once the relationship is in place through the new birth and presence of Jesus within the believer. We are not under law, but under grace. The present terms include loss or gain of reward at His judgment seat, and the PROMISE of chastening, which we all will experience at various times and levels.

So while you may insist that we call nearly everything Jesus ever said, a command.... we ought not to be in fear of His rejection or His wrath.

Rex · Mar 16, 2013

williemac

williemac said:
That is a long reply. I will not bother to make an equally long comment on each point. Only to say that more than some of the references refer to the command to come to Him for salvation in the first place, so are not directed at the believer.... and others are just flat out -out of context.

williemac your dodging, the reply I gave you, you were clearly speaking of the luke warm church, the saved, quote below

williemac said:
Jesus, in Rev.3:20,21, knocked on the door of His lukewarm church, asking if He could come into any person who hears Him and opens the door (through the infilling of the Holy Spirit), He then remarked that He would sup with them and they with He. What is His priority? Relationship. What does He do? Ask!

As I pointed out above and you are now doing is avoiding the subject of the message. Which was the below. You completely ignored it and went to verse 20 and drew your own conclusion.

Rex said:
williemac I do believe you don't do justice to the verse you just mentioned. The list of "orders to DO" from the new testament to is so extensive i could not possible track them all. So the problem is not the scripture the problem is out lined in your quote above, a blindness for the clear SUBJECT.

Rev 3:18-19 is the order the subject

18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the
door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I didn't read any further than the first two sentences of your reply I quoted from your last post. Your opening statement makes it quite clear, your luke warm and intend to continue, rather than making a purchase, I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire,

1 Cor 3:12-15 don't be one that merely escapes the fire.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each
one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it
will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of
what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Please don't lecture me on the work Of the Lord

You can sit on the porch and watch but don't mussel the ox
1Cor 9:9-12

Is there relationship with the Godhead, if we don't come under God's authority?

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