FHII said:
Try applying a little common sense here. When Jesus said that it does not mean you can blindly apply the meaning of the word "law" to mean "OT" in every case. If so, when Jesus said, "The law and the prophets were until John" (Luke 16:16) he meant the law of Moses and the prophets of the OT. It would be redundant if "law" meant the OT. Furthermore, In Romans 6:14 it is clearly speaking of the law of Moses, even though it does not specify so. Even furthermore, if we aren't to even acknowledge the OT and if none of it applies to the NT Church, it's pretty curious why Jesus and the Apostles relied so heavily on it.
So like I said, use some common sense here.
No...YOU are assuming it doesn't. Bottom line: Jesus used it in a parable as a method of celebration. Clearly he didn't have a problem with it. In fact, it is a NT endorsement of using music. If you are going to dismiss this as such, you will have to throw out every other parable Jesus used to teach.
Furthermore, the NT doesn't forbid rings, robes or dancing (in fact, this parable approves of dancing). Rings and robes are thought to be forbidden, but that's just a misunderstanding of verses like Jas 2:2. Killing a fatted calf.... Well, ok. I'll give you that one. Although, it isn't so much forbidden as it is unneccessary.
Doesn't matter. He clearly liked them in heaven whether they are spiritual or literal. Like Mat 6 says.... Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. If God don't mind them in heaven, he isn't going to mind them on earth.
And once again, you are wrong about the NT never saying use musical instruments. I pointed that out, but you apperently either missed it or chose not to address it. I gave one verse, but it is spoken of at least three times.
Jn 10:34,35 "
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"
The common sense approach is that Jesus was quoting from Psalms and called it "law". All the OT can be called law. Here is what a couple of commentators had to say of this passage:
Your law ... to the word of God ... the Scripture ... These triple designations refer to the entire Old Testament. The use of "your law" in reference to a Psalm makes it certain that "the law" did not mean merely the Pentateuch, but applied to the entire Old Testament. There is no stronger testimony in the Bible to the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures than this remarkable passage.
Coffman Commentary
Verse 34. In your law. Psalms 82:6. The word law here, is used to include the Old Testament.
Albert Barnes Notes on the NT
Even though all the OT can be called law, there are places as you noted in Lk 16:16 that the OT is called the "law and the prophets". In this case Psalms is not one of the prophets so it must fall under law.
But in Jn 10:34,35 the language is too pointed and plain that Psalms - the OT is called law.
As far as the prodigal and music, you made the affirmative that it does relate to the NT church worship and therefore allows for instruments, therefore it is up to
YOU to prove
YOUR own affirmation. Just saying it does is not proof. It remains your assumption until you can prove otherwise.
You post "
Furthermore, the NT doesn't forbid rings, robes or dancing..."
You too are caught up in the faulty logic of WIlliemac that if the NT does not specifically condemn a thing then that thing is allowed. Again, the NT does not specifically forbid the use of orange juice and peanuts for the Lord's Supper so according to your 'logic' those items would be allowed.
But more to the point of the parable and the prodigal sons' celebration. A celebration of a lost son returning home proves nothing about NT worship for the three parables of Lk 15 have
NOTHING at all to do with NT worship. The purpose of the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son was to reveal a single point found in Lk 15:2 "
And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them". The point being made to the Pharisees by these parables was Jesus was to reach out to lost sinners of society at large because of the Jews rejection of Him. Nowhere in Lk 15:1-3 does it say the purpose of the parables is about playing instruments in NT worship. That is an unbelievable stretch to
add that idea to the text of Lk 15. The purpose behind the parables do not allow for putting on of robes, rings, sandal shoes or dancing or killing a fatted calf, tending sheep, looking for lost coins as acts of worship. The son is
assumed by some to be a type of Christian and the father represents God. Yet worship is to be directed towards God, but in the parable the music (celebration) was not directed towards or for the father but was directed to and for the son. Christians are not to be worshipping themselves much less worship themselves with instruments.
It does matter that in the various Revelation texts that those context are very symbolic and those harps are just as symbolic as other things mentioned in those contexts. You cannot, within the same text, try and literalize harps while trying to symbolize 144,000 only being saved, that's inconsistency,
Nothing in the context say anything about God clearly liking harps playing in heaven no more that God likes hearing literal thunder or running water in heaven. In Rev 14:2 he heard a "voice" and verse 3 he heard "singing" no literal harps playing in heaven here at all.
Lastly you post "
And once again, you are wrong about the NT never saying use musical instruments..."
God never said to Noah to not use oak wood. So Noah could have built the ark out of oak and still done as God commanded him?
Secondhand Lion said:
Wow, I had no idea people had some of these ideas. Wow....no seriously....WOW! I have taken the time to read through most of these posts, mainly because when something comes along that I have never heard before, I want to try to take the time to understand the particular viewpoint I have never considered....hey...maybe it has some validity.
Here I go again...please pardon my excessive simplicity...but when has God ever made an argument through silence? The God I worship is pretty clear and concise when He doesn't want me to do something...ya know the whole lying\stealing\dishonoring my parents thing etc. Com'mon...no instruments? Really? How does He feel about it? He doesn't say....period. God wants you to know not to do something....He ain't shy.
Ps...Ernest...do you happen to be singing all your posts? I am having a really good time picturing it if you aren't.
Teaching takes places through making posts.
I have asked others this question with no response yet up to this post. Since God did not specifically forbid the use of oak wood (i.e.,God was silent about the use of oak wood) could Noah have built the ark out of oak and still have done as commanded by God?
God's silence on the use of musical instruments in NT church worship speaks volumes that He does not want them. Just as God's silence on using all types of wood other than gopher wood spoke volumes to Noah that God did not want other types of wood to be used to build the ark. God commanding gopher wood meant He wanted nothing but gopher wood to be used in building the ark just as God commanding singing means He wants nothing but singing taking place in NT church worship.
FHII said:
The problem is Secondhand Lion is that he did say.... he said it in the OT MANY times. Some of the folks here, however, feel he changed his mind in the NT, which he never said he did. In fact, it's a falsehood that God doesn't approve of musical instruments in the NT. 1. Jesus mentions them in a good light in one of his parables, 2. God still has them going in Heaven and 3. at least 3 times in the NT we are told to sing psalms (which by definition includes them).
--Singing psalms, psalms simply means a pious song, it may or may not be one of the Psalms in the bible.
--There are no literal harps in heaven no more than there will be literally just 144,000 in heaven.
--The parable of the prodigal son, the lost coin, the lost sheep was to teach/reveal a particular point to those Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking in Lk 15:2 and had nothing at all to do with NT church worship. Going beyond that particular point by adding NT worship to Lk 15:1-3 is adding to the context/parables
Risen Angel said:
If my employer ask me to show up at 8 AM (singing) and I am still there at 3 PM (singing & playing guitar), I don't see how I have violated his request. There is no logical crisis on the horizon. I have fulfilled the requirement and simply brought more to the table than he asked for. But this line of reasoning is irrelevant when discussing my choice to play guitar while worshiping God. Let's go to the scripture for understanding.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: (Revelation 14:2)
An interesting lead up to perhaps one of my favorite verses in the text, but I'll get to that in moment. The final segment of this verse is fairly clear - people singing with their instruments. Maybe consider the versions of the text you are referencing, because the NIV took the trinity right out of the word; how much more have these other translations strayed. Why do you want to add words that aren't there? To support your argument?
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne... (Revelation 14:3)
And this song is being sung by the guitarists; how are we to learn the song without the harpers harping with their harps?
This is not the only reference in the NT about musical instruments. Earlier in the same text an amazing event is transpiring, perhaps overlooked by your eagerness to find only the single perception of truth you seek.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Revelation 5:8-9)
This is fairly significant, and our Lord is present - in fact, he is the reason why they bow. The elders have an instrument in their hand... every one of them. And what do they do while in the presence of Jesus? They sing a new song. A song that makes a statement that reaches across all time and all people. It is what we have all been waiting for. A pinnacle moment if there ever was one.
Even if you don't like my first scripture reference, how can you argue with this one? If God is standing there looking at his people holding harps - then they are HOLDING HARPS. I don't understand how this could be any more clear. This debate has gone on way too long. Even though I find it interesting, it is perhaps an exercise in futility to continue discussing this topic if you are unwilling to concede.
Are you going to argue that the One who opens the eyes of the blind... is blind?
God is not limited by the physical world. If he wants instruments in heaven then they are there. He spoke the world into existence - do you think whipping up a couple of harps is beyond his ability? Who are we to dictate the rules of the realm of heaven? We will be given heavenly bodies, so why not some heavenly harps to go along with it?
There has been this focus on OT versus NT in this thread. Why? It is a seamless integration to anyone who reads it. The NT is of no effect without the OT. Without the law there is no reason for Christ to come. What would grace mean to us if there was no purpose for it? What would forgiveness mean if there was not a consequence to be forgiven.
Without death, why the need for life?
Plant the seed, water it and watch it grow; and, yet, you will never understand how it does grow - it does because God wills it. Could you create the seed, the soil in which it germinates, the water which gives it life, the sun that brings it sustenance? No. So, why do you think that your reasoning is any more powerful? We are the creature, not the creator. Sometimes I like to just sit back and drink in the beauty of the flowers. I don't need to have any logic to support why I am feeling the presence of God by witnessing his creation.
No more so do I need to ask why I feel his presence while strumming the chords.
You are trying to change the illustration I used. What you do while at work is not the issue, the issue is at what time are you to be at work.
So if your employer tells you to be at work by 8:00am that eliminates you being at work at 3:00pm even though the employer did not explcilty forbid being at work at 3:00pm (silent about 3:00pm). The "logic" of some here is that since the employer never did explicitly tell you NOT to be at work at 3:00pm that allows you to show up at 3:00pm.
As far was what you changed my illustration to, if your employer explicitly tells you to show up at 8:00am and your job to do is assemble cars yet you sit and play a guitar and sing, then you are not doing what the employer said to do and will most likely lose your job by doing it. Likewise God explicitly said sing therefore playing is not doing as God said just as playing a guitar and singing is not assembling cars
I have dealt already with the
symbolic harps of Revelation 5 and 14. You can look back at my last few posts about that issue.
Briefly, the harps in Rev 5 are as symbolic as the bowl full of prayers as the harps in Rev 14 are as symbolic of 144,000 being in heaven.
Rev 14:2 ASV "
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps."
Notice the figure of speech used, a simile, as seen by the word "as" There was not literal water, thunder or harps but a voice that sounded "AS" many waters, thunder and harps.
In Matt 22:30, there is no marriage in heaven. Does that demand/command/forbid no marriage in the church? No. So even if there were literal harps playing literal music in heaven that does not demand/command/allow for them to be used in the church. Heaven and church are two different palces and just becasue something is allowed/fobidden in heaven does not necessarily means it isallowed/fobidden in the church.
Heaven is spoken of in the bible as a spiritual realm not a physical one. So if you make it to heaven you will not take any of your physical possessions with you nor will you take you physical body with you for Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of a change that must you must go through - from corruptible to incorruptible, from mortal to immortality.