Christ will come again

veteran said:

That wreaks of Preterism, a false doctrine of men.

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Full, or hyper, preterism is indeed false. So is full, or hyper, futurism. Partial preterism is the only rationale approach.

1peterlight said:

what would you type in to google earth to see earthquake remnant. also I didn't realize it but you cannot see the dome of the rock from google earth, that's strange.

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What is the earthquake remnant?

Full, hyper, partial Preterism, it's all junk of men's doctrines. The Bible as written ONLY is true doctrine.

dragonfly said:

The cross shape of roads is clearly visible disecting the Mount of Olives in both directions. This gives the four peaks which were alluded to by me in another post. But, to insist that the shape of the 'mount' was changed by an earthquake, although I think it's the best explanation, is a matter of faith.

In the UK, the tail end of the Penines, the relatively low spine down the north of England, is the highest coral reef in the world. That gives us an idea of how far from both the depth of the sea and the seaside, a coast can travel as tectonic plates slowly shift. I mention this because it is more than reasonable to explain the construction of the Mount of Olives, and the relatively low level of earthquake which would suffice to break it up a bit, seeing it is made of sedimentary 'rock'.

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FYI, according to geologic evidence there is an old landslide on the central summit of the Mt of Olives to which you refer. It is on the western slope facing west-northwest, north of the grave sites in that area. The terrain is not that steep on that slope, so it is improbable that the landform has changed that much. There is no other evidence of significant landslides on that hill.

On the other hand there has been a couple of large landslides on the southern peak of the Mt of Olives that very definitely altered the landform considering the massive quantity of landslide rubble lying at the base of the western and southwestern slopes. The mountain before these landslides was undoubtedly higher.

Also, there are no active or inactive faults in a crisscross pattern on the central summit, which there would be if your theory about four quadrants formed by splitting were true.

dragonfly said:

As you indicate, there is OT prophecy still to be fufilled, as well as those of 'that Prophet' Jesus Christ, whose words are not all fulfilled, yet.

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I would like to participate in a thread that goes through each OT prophecy to determine which have been fulfilled and which haven't Are you game?

dragonfly said:

Yep, I am, but you do realise this may be a can of worms, although it shouldn't be?

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Well that will have to be part of the process. The idea would be to document why certain beliefs hold a prophecy to have been fulfilled or not. I think that each prophecy needs to evaluated against certain criteria, and then a matrix kept that documents where a prophecy lies, fulfilled, possibly fulfilled, and not fulfilled. Maybe we could tie the thread in with a blog onsite to display the running tally.

dragonfly said:

By all means. I started a blog, but it seemed a bit clunky to me. I couldn't get on with the formatting at all, and so I abandoned it.

I'm sure something like this has been done before by previous generations. It seems like a huge task. Since you have the vision for it, please lead on.

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Rats! I was hoping for something a little different... OK I'll start thinking about it.

dragonfly said:

I know there's one piece of writing I'd like you to google. It's the Translator to the Reader of the Orthodox Jewish Bible (Dr Phil Goble) on the word 'Admah' or 'HaAdmah', with reference to the criteria set out in scripture for a 'royal virgin' - in this case, the mother of Messiah Jesus. It is in google books, as well as on afii.org, Dr Goble's site. You will find 'Admah means virgin?' on the home page Index of afii.org.

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Wow. Royal virgins. That is very interesting. And it makes a tremendous amount of sense. I appreciate the heads-up on that.

Many would consider these Jewish commentators the top of the stack and of course they are not influenced by the modern world. It's just an FYI

Maimanides (12th century Egypt) the philosophical concepts
Rabbi Moses ben Maimon 1135

Rashi (11th century France), who brings the straight understanding of the text
Rabbi Shlomo Itzhaki; February 22, 1040 – July 13, 1104)

Nachmanides (13th century Spain), the earliest of the Kabbalists.
Rabbi Moses ben Naḥman Girondi, Bonastruc ça (de) Porta and by his acronym Ramban (1194 – 1270),

dragonfly said:

Well, I hope you're not disappointed with his discussion on Admah. He is resisting the modern translations which diminish her formal status.

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Not at all I'm just tossing out some additional information

dragonfly said:

Feel free to say what you were hoping for. I know I'm going to be pretty busy on and off for months to come, and I have my own focus on that study of torah parameters to get through, but I'm very interested to discuss prophecy with those to whom God has given understanding.

I know there's one piece of writing I'd like you to google. It's the Translator to the Reader of the Orthodox Jewish Bible (Dr Phil Goble) on the word 'Admah' or 'HaAdmah', with reference to the criteria set out in scripture for a 'royal virgin' - in this case, the mother of Messiah Jesus. It is in google books, as well as on afii.org, Dr Goble's site. You will find 'Admah means virgin?' on the home page Index of afii.org.

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You had me a little worried there with your misspelling of `almah, (a maiden or damsel). Admah is "earthy", like the dust of the 'adamah-soil from which the man Adam was taken. Likewise Shinab melek of Admah being one of the five "little-zoar" kings of Sodom and Gomorrah, (Genesis 14:2) carries the name of the city Admah because he is a "little horn" king of the soil of the heart.

dragonfly said:

Hi veteran,

I (jmho) think you read too much into what was said by HeRoseFromTheDead. Isn't it true that the OT points to Christ in ways without number?

I didn't read in his post that there is no more prophecy to be fulfilled, or that he thought Christ had returned by 70AD, but for sure the very arrival and work of Messiah Jesus, shows that some prophecy has been fulfilled.

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Partial Preterists are nothing more than confused Full Preterists.

One must decide whether they are going to stick to God's Word as written, or listen to men's doctrines. One cannot hold to any of those positions and stay true to all the parameters of prophecy given in Holy Writ. Men's doctrines aren't concerned about leaving parameters out that automatically cause conflict with their man-made doctrines. They just disregard parameters that cause conflict with their doctrines, hence problem solved, they think. That's not an example of staying in God's Word but instead of playing games.

For example, in our Lord's Olivet Discourse when He starts to mention the parable of a fig tree, He then says "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt.24:34). Could not have been the generation of that time of which He was speaking, because the abomination of desolation event did not happen, nor did His second coming and gathering of the saints. And when He said "...till all these things be fulfilled," that means ALL the parameters He covered in those Matthew 24 signs He gave His disciples upon the Mount of Olives, from Matt.24:4 forward. Moreover, He was giving 7 specific signs there which directly parallel the signs in His Book of Revelation He later gave to Apostle John.

But what have Preterists done with all that? Flat deny the times and the seasons He gave that for, and instead try to pass those signs off as history, including those parts of Revelation which is the majority of the prophecies in Revelation. That's equivalent to saying those Scriptures no longer apply to Christ's Church today, especially for the end of days.

Who would most likely be behind that strategy of passing that off as history, wanting us to not understand it for the end? The false Jews, those who say they are Jews but are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev.2:9; Rev.3:9). What reason of strategy for the end would they want those signs Jesus gave not understood by us? To try and fool us into thinking Christ's Kingdom is either on earth now, or is 'progressively' manifesting with today's one-worldism movement. What is actually happenning today is that Christ's Church here on earth, the outward structure of it, is being taken over by Christ's enemies and it's being changed to allow falseness and eventually a bowing to the coming pseudo-Christ which our Lord Jesus warned us about. No mystery, since that is the actually matter of what is contained in those signs for the end which Christ Jesus gave His Church to understand for the end.

So one can either waste time playing games with men's doctrines designed to lead a believer's understanding away from what's coming on the earth, or they can listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son directly in His Word for theirselves to understand the endtime events, how to prepare, and what it is our Lord wants us to do.

dragonfly said:

Hi daq,

Since you wrote this,


I have been chewing on it, trying to make sense from my mainly Gentile-thinking New-Covenant-teaching perspective. Actually, I don't want to discuss generational curses, as although I've made the same jump-to-conclusion in the past as the one to which you refer, I think generational curses are something else, and God is more than able to break them. Of course, He is also able to pronounce curses which are totally binding.

What I do want to discuss, is the limitation of the definition of 'scripture' to 'Torah'. Why?

Is not all the word of God which has been recorded for us in writing, 'scripture'?


In my simplicity - and NOT in any way 'altering' Torah - the way I read the prophets quoted above, is with the emphasis on 'no more', in Jeremiah 31:29, and 'not ... any more', in Ezekiel 18:3. It seems unmistakable that God's intention is to alter both understanding and practice.

For instance, would Achan's children have been put to death with him (after Jeremiah and Ezekiel's prophetic words? What about 'the houses', and 'households' pertaining to Korah, Dathan, Abiram and all those that joined themselves to them? It seems clear in the general revelation which God was making of Himself through His prophets after Moses, that He was increasing the level of grace He was willing to extend to His people.

Deuteronomy 23:2, 3 indicate that for certain people their fate was nothing to do with their own actions, but was entirely due to their first parents' behaviour. Could an Ammonite and a Moabite not be circumcised, and become accepted? Did not all the laws relating to the strangers living amongst Israel, apply equally to them? Does this mean that a bastard was not even circumcised? To what level was he excluded from keeping 'the law'?


If I may put it this way... I have always understood that God was continuing to reveal Himself to mankind through His prophets. Eventually, our Lord came, and He closed some loopholes which had developed somehow, even more conclusively. You would not say that He 'altered' 'Torah', would you?



Okay. Now that I've written all this, I do see that you are not saying that Torah was altered, but rather that man's understanding was altered.


So... moving on to the four 'generations' of a man, please could you say more about the meaning of the fiery flying seraphs, and the sharp teeth? Are they references to death?

Also, please say more about the four generations when looking at it through the sons? What, in particular, do you see as important in the example which you gave, where Hezekiah was the 'fourth generation'?


If all these questions seem too many to tackle in one post, please take your time. I'm trying to keep up with you; and I have more questions, yet.

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As for the four beasts of the dominion of the man, (Daniel 7) you quoted my underlining of the New Covenant statement from Jeremiah 31:27. It is clearly part of the New Covenant that both Houses, (Israel and Judah) were to be sown "with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast" and therefore they are. Problem is that the "beasts" of the man must need be slain; like fatted calves when the prodigal sons come home, (little do they realize). If the Father kiss you on the neck surely your "eyes of the flesh" will melt away out of their sockets, your mind of the flesh will be dissolved, and then indeed shall you see all things according to the Spirit with new eyes of Spirit opened in Messiah.

As for the Seraphim-Saraph I saw where you recently quoted some of the passages:
Which temple does he stand in . . . Reply #47

The following New Testament quotes are all taken from Isaiah Six:

Matthew 13:13-15 KJV
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:11-12 KJV
11. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 8:9-10 KJV
9. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Acts 28:25-27 KJV
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

John 12:34-41 KJV
34. The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35. Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39. Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

The question then is thus:

The Gospel of John states that Isaiah "saw his glory or the glory and spoke of him" (Yeshua). What does the author of the Gospel of John mean by this statement? And whom does he intend by this statement from the corresponding Isaiah passage? Does he imply 'Adonay? Understand that if you say yes then what you are essentially stating is that you believe Yeshua is 'Adonay, (which is not the same as 'Adoni). However, there are many places where the name of the Most High is given as 'Adonay YHWH and this is seemingly a dilemma for those who do not believe that Yeshua is himself the heavenly Father. So, again, the question is this: Of whom does the author of the Gospel of John suggest that Isaiah speaks when he states that Isaiah "saw his glory and spoke of him"?

All of the New Testament passages above are taken from Isaiah 6:9-10 ~

Isaiah 6:1-10 KJV - Sacred Name Bible
1. In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the ADONAY sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is YHVH of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, YHVH of hosts.
6. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8. Also I heard the voice of the ADONAY, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
http://sacrednamebible.com/B23C006.htm

Isaiah 6:1-10 LXX - Septuagint
1. And it came to pass in the year in which king Ozias died, that I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the house was full of his glory.
2. And seraphs stood round about him: each one had six wings: and with two they covered their face, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew.
3 And one cried to the other, and they said, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4. And the lintel shook at the voice they uttered, and the house was filled with smoke.
5. And I said, Woe is me, for I am pricked to the heart; for being a man, and having unclean lips, I dwell in the midst of a people having unclean lips; and I have seen with mine eyes the King, the Lord of hosts.
6. And there was sent to me one of the seraphs, and he had in his hand a coal, which he had taken off the altar with the tongs:
7. and he touched my mouth, and said, Behold, this has touched thy lips, and will take away thine iniquities, and will purge off thy sins.
8. And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go to this people? And I said, behold, I am here, send me. And he said, Go, and say to this people,
9. Ye shall hear indeed, but ye shall not understand; and ye shall see indeed, but ye shall not perceive.
10. For the heart of this people has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Esaias/index.htm

Feel free to use whatever translation you prefer, (as that really is not the issue) but please attempt an answer to the following question, (and I do not necessarily mean answer it here in front of everyone else but rather for yourself, in study, prayer, and privately before the Lord).

According to John 12:41 who exactly is Yeshua in the vision of Isaiah Six?

If the author does not suggest that Isaiah saw the glory of God, (which is Yeshua and therefore speaks of Yeshua) then the commentary which follows the statement would not flow as it does. It is clear that the author speaks of Yeshua when he states that Isaiah spoke of him:

John 12:41-45 KJV
41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43. For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44. Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

It is clear that the author speaks of Yeshua and continues speaking of him in the natural flow of the statements which follow, (John 12:42). Also, if the flesh profits nothing; "It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63) then above where Yeshua states "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me" the statement does not appear to mean those who "see" him in the flesh but rather those who "see" him for who and what he truly claims to be, (the glory of 'Adonay but not 'Adonay himself). According to the same author of this Gospel account; "No man has seen the Father at any time" (John 1:18). Thus, Isaiah saw the glory and we know that Yeshua is the glory, again the same author writes; "and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father" (John 1:14).

John 17:3-6 KJV
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Isaiah saw the glory of 'Adonay and "the house was full of his glory" - Isaiah 6:1 LXX

Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV
1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And of course there is a certain key passage which was alluded to but left out intentionally . . .