Christ will come again

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Retrobyter

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Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Who are you to cast the shadow of such an accusation against others when you yourself will not even accept the plain Scripture in the way it is written and delivered from the Master himself? Do you not understand that the Son "emptied" himself and that the Father spoke through the Son? How many times have you now danced around the following statement with the various definitions and transliterations so as to change the meaning of the text?

Who am I? I'm a nobody, as far as people are concerned. Who am I really? I'm a son of God who was given God's wisdom upon request, and I believe I was commissioned to be a voice of reason among the believers. I am simply trying to keep my brothers and sisters on track without wandering into the vast unknown of unbridled imagination. God has helped me tie together the prophecies based on a simple revelation of Yeshua`s first advent. I understand Yeshua` came SPECIFICALLY to offer to Isra'el the Kingdom of God as it existed under the earthly rule of David. Such an understanding is like finally seeing the picture that the puzzle is intended to look like when the pieces are all put together. IF Yeshua` offered the Kingdom of God to Isra'el during His first advent, then it would make sense that, despite the variation we have experienced over the last 2000 years in the form of Isra'el being temporarily blinded and Gentiles being grafted into the Olive Tree, Yeshua` would still offer the Kingdom of God to a future Isra'el at His second advent. What God calls His plan at one time will still be His plan in another time. Human beings cannot change what God calls good, and God does NOT change His mind! He may DELAY His plan, but He does NOT change it!

Luke 17:20-21 ASV
20. And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, there! for lo,
the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21 YLT
20. And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, 'The reign of God doth not come with observation;
21. nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo,
the reign of God is within you.'

Luke 17:20-21 Weymouth's New Testament
20. Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, He answered, "The Kingdom of God does not so come that you can stealthily watch for it.
21. Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' -
for the Kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:20-21 NIV
20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Luke 17:20-21 ESV
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed,
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Desolating Abomination - Post#4-13
Desolating Abomination - Post#51
So….The New Earth and Heaven - Post#6-25

Yes, I said what I said, and I'll say it again!


That is still a misinterpretation of Luke 17:20-21! That is NOT what Yeshua` was talking about! The Greek word "entos" CAN mean "within," but NOT IN THIS CONTEXT!!! Here, the word should have been translated "AMONG!"

In all the versions you quote above, Yeshua` was talking to the P'rushiym (Pharisees)! Are you really going to insist that Yeshua` was saying that the Kingdom of heaven was "within" THEM?! Is that really what you think?! And, you cannot explain away this fact! Yeshua` was talking TO THEM!

Also, the word translated "you" is the Greek word "humoon" (using the "oo" for omega), and it's a PLURAL, second-person word!

This is one reason why the KJV is still the better translation of Scripture. The "thee's" and "thou's" are SINGULAR and the "ye's" and "you's" are plural in the KJV. Modern versions, like the ASV, the YLT, Weymouth's New Testament, the NIV, the ESV, the NASB, and even the NKJV, LOSE that information in translation! Greek had singular and plural forms of the second-person pronoun, and the English of the 1600's could convey that information. Most modern versions are trying to get RID of the "thee's" and "thou's" but they are INFORMATION that once lost is difficult to regain without going to the original languages! They are prey to the "dumbing down" of English! So, the "you" at the end of all the versions above you've quoted, with the exception of the KJV, has a fundamentally different meaning than the "you" at the end of the KJV quote! All the others have a second person with an undefined number that could be thought of as a single person or individually; the KJV has a second person that you KNOW has more than one person in mind - the GROUP of Pharisees!

Yeshua` was not talking to an individual or individuals; He was talking to the GROUP of P'rushiym! He was telling them that the Kingdom wasn't going to come from "Heaven" with a lot of pomp and circumstance! HE WAS ALREADY THERE AMONG THEM, and HE was the embodiment of the Kingdom, because HE was the KING THEY WERE EXPECTING!!!


Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God doesn't come with pomp and circumstance;
21 Neither shall they say, Look, here it is! or, look, there it is! for, behold, the kingdom of God is (already) among y'all!

THAT'S what He was telling them!

And the same with this statement which you completely ignore in your mindset:

Matthew 26:64-66 KJV
64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter [apo-arti "from now on"] shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.


Mark 14:61-64 KJV
61. But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62. And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power,
and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64. Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.


And why does the high priest say that this statement is blasphemy?
Because he knows the throne of God is the Mercy Seat upon the Ark of the Covenant.
Likewise he knows the power of the meaning of coming on "the clouds of heaven" with the Father:

Leviticus 16:2 KJV
2. And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Leviticus 16:12-13 KJV
12. And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:


Revelation 8:3-5 KJV
3. And another angel ["a different messenger"] came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.


ark-cloud3.jpg


You have made connections that should never have been made between these passages. First of all, the messenger from God who led the Children of Isra'el from the Red Sea to the time when the Temple was built, who appeared before them as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, is NOT the same as the clouds of the sky to which the prophecy of the Messiah referred in Matthew 26 and Mark 14! You have blundered in making this connection! The two are NOT RELATED! The Messiah's prophecy in Matthew 26 and Mark 16 is actually reflected in Dani'el 7:13-14; Matthew 24:29-30; Mark 13:24-26; Luke 21:24-28; Acts 1:9-11; and Revelation 1:4-7. THAT'S what Yeshua` foretold!


Daniel 7:13-14
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

Luke 21:24-28
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV

Revelation 1:4-7
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

And, why does the high priest accuse Yeshua` of blasphemy? It's because, "blasphemy" means "to belittle." They were saying that because Yeshua` was saying that He would be given His glory from God, His Father, that God would share His glory with Yeshua`, something that God said He would never do with another:


Isaiah 48:11-13
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
KJV

By exalting Himself, the cohen hagadol thought He was taking God's glory for His own, not realizing that God will give His glory to His Representative, His Messiah, His Choice for King!

And many other critical statements you likewise ignore in favor of a physical world empire-kingdom:

John 18:35-36 KJV
35. Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be
delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


Yeshua` was NOT saying that His Kingdom would not be on earth; He was saying that His Kingdom was not of this world's type of kingdom! The Greek word kosmos means a world-SYSTEM! In other words, His Kingdom would not be patterned after other kingdoms, giving preferences to some while not to others. He will not play favorites! He will not judge after the sight of His eyes or after the hearing of His ears but will judge with a righteous judgment! His servants would fight for Him if His Kingdom followed the PATTERN of other worldly kingdoms; that is, other kingdoms of this world-system!


Isaiah 11:1-5
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord ;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord : and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
KJV

If you refuse to believe these statements of Yeshua then how is it you think you will understand those who do believe them?

John 8:23-25 KJV
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.


And, how will you ever understand that I don't refuse Yeshua`s statements nor do I ignore them?! Read the REST OF THE CONTEXT of John 8:23-25:


John 8:12-29
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world (kosmos); I am not of this world (kosmos).
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
KJV

John 9:40-10:18
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
KJV

John 10:24-40
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ (the Messiah), tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
KJV

John 11:20-27
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

John 13:31-36
31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
KJV

John 14:1-4
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
KJV

John 14:16-19
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
KJV

John 14:27-29
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
KJV

John 16:4-29
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
KJV

John 18:33-37
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world (kosmos): if my kingdom were of this world (kosmos), then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
KJV

John 19:5-22
5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.
13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
KJV

John 20:27-31
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
KJV

It may not be as easy to see in the Gospel of John as it is in the Synoptic Gospels, but it is still there! He IS the Messiah! He IS the King of the Jews! He died, but He DID RISE AGAIN LITERALLY, PHYSICALLY, BODILY! He did leave this earth, but He IS returning LITERALLY! And, when He returns, it will be HIS job - HIS authority - HIS pleasure - to judge the earth on His Father's behalf! I won't deny that He was not from beneath but from above; however, that does NOT mean that His Kingdom belongs elsewhere! He IS returning!
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
daq said:
Who are you to cast the shadow of such an accusation against others when you yourself will not even accept the plain Scripture in the way it is written and delivered from the Master himself? Do you not understand that the Son "emptied" himself and that the Father spoke through the Son?
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

Who am I really? I'm a son of God who was given God's wisdom upon request, and I believe I was commissioned to be a voice of reason among the believers. I am simply trying to keep my brothers and sisters on track without wandering into the vast unknown of unbridled imagination. God has helped me tie together the prophecies based on a simple revelation of Yeshua`s first advent.

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

You treat the Scriptures as if the whole thing was written by an Invisible Hand, in which Scriptures He has hidden everything from the view of the reader unless the reader has put on the Magic Glasses of the Spirit! That's NOT the way God works!

That's the kind of thinking that led to Joseph Smith and his story/claim that God's messenger gave him a special, golden book that only he could see and interpret with those special glasses he claimed he had also been given!
1) Please stop placing your words within my quote boxes under my screen name as if I said them. It is confusion.
2) What you have accused me of doing elsewhere I did not do yet now you work the same deeds for which you accused myself.
3) None of the reasons that you give justify what you are here doing to the brethren who disagree with your mindset.
4) You have allowed yourself to be deceived because the true "sons of God" do not do what you do.
5) If you think you were simply "given God's wisdom upon request" you do not know my God.
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

Desolating Abomination - Post#4-13
Desolating Abomination - Post#51
So….The New Earth and Heaven - Post#6-25

Yes, I said what I said, and I'll say it again!


That is still a misinterpretation of Luke 17:20-21! That is NOT what Yeshua` was talking about! The Greek word "entos" CAN mean "within," but NOT IN THIS CONTEXT!!! Here, the word should have been translated "AMONG!"

In all the versions you quote above, Yeshua` was talking to the P'rushiym (Pharisees)! Are you really going to insist that Yeshua` was saying that the Kingdom of heaven was "within" THEM?! Is that really what you think?! And, you cannot explain away this fact! Yeshua` was talking TO THEM!

Also, the word translated "you" is the Greek word "humoon" (using the "oo" for omega), and it's a PLURAL, second-person word!

This is one reason why the KJV is still the better translation of Scripture. The "thee's" and "thou's" are SINGULAR and the "ye's" and "you's" are plural in the KJV. Modern versions, like the ASV, the YLT, Weymouth's New Testament, the NIV, the ESV, the NASB, and even the NKJV, LOSE that information in translation! Greek had singular and plural forms of the second-person pronoun, and the English of the 1600's could convey that information. Most modern versions are trying to get RID of the "thee's" and "thou's" but they are INFORMATION that once lost is difficult to regain without going to the original languages! They are prey to the "dumbing down" of English! So, the "you" at the end of all the versions above you've quoted, with the exception of the KJV, has a fundamentally different meaning than the "you" at the end of the KJV quote! All the others have a second person with an undefined number that could be thought of as a single person or individually; the KJV has a second person that you KNOW has more than one person in mind - the GROUP of Pharisees!

Yeshua` was not talking to an individual or individuals; He was talking to the GROUP of P'rushiym! He was telling them that the Kingdom wasn't going to come from "Heaven" with a lot of pomp and circumstance! HE WAS ALREADY THERE AMONG THEM, and HE was the embodiment of the Kingdom, because HE was the KING THEY WERE EXPECTING!!!


Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God doesn't come with pomp and circumstance;
21 Neither shall they say, Look, here it is! or, look, there it is! for, behold, the kingdom of God is (already) among y'all!

THAT'S what He was telling them!

This is completely false and you already know it so why do you keep repeating the same falsehoods?
The Kingdom of God does not come with ocular-visual-observational evidence:


daq said:
The Kingdom of God does not come by observation. This kind of "observation" is "visual-ocular evidence" meaning "to be seen with the eyes of the flesh" and is purely physical in nature. This he states because the Kingdom of God is within us:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: [GSN#3907 parateresis]
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Original Strong's Ref. #3907
Romanized parateresis
Pronounced par-at-ay'-ray-sis
from GSN3906; inspection, i.e. ocular evidence:
KJV--obervation
.

Yes Yeshua speaks in plural, and yes he speaks to the Pharisees, and yes the Kingdom of God is potentially inside of all men:


daq said:
In addition, (Retrobyter) of course Yeshua speaks to them in plural yet he speaks to each in his own appointed times even though he speaks to them all at the same time. The word employed here ("entos") translated "within" comes from GSN#1722 "en" which most definitely means "IN".

Luke 17:21 TUA
21. oude erousin, "Idou hode!" e"{*} Ekei!" Idou gar he basileia tou Theou entos humonestin."^


Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.

BDB -- Strong's Greek Definition for #1787
1787 // entov // entos // en-tos' //
from 1722 ; prep
AV - within 2; 2
1) within, inside
1a) within you i.e. in the midst of you
1b) within you i.e. your soul
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/luke_17.shtml
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1787

The modern definition from BDB makes your case more flimsy because the soul is used to describe "entos" being "within" the man.
In addition when you change the meaning of "entos" you alter the implications of "mesos" ("midst") from other passages:


daq said:
Ah so it is perfectly good and fair for you to judge others but not so fair when your judgment is proven false? And what will you do when you are actually judged with your own measure which you have meted out? If you do not like to be judged then why do you judge?

Also it does not matter to whom the Master speaks directly in the passage, (i.e. the Pharisees) because the Gospel accounts are written by apostles and disciples to the entire congregation-ekklesia and that includes the account from Luke irrespective of to whom it is addressed, ("Theophilus"). In addition you are attempting to force the Luke passage to say something that it does not say so as to enforce your own paradigm of a physical fleshly kingdom of God upon the physical world-wide planet earth, ruling a physical empire of fleshly kingdoms, over what I can only imagine you must think of as the "lesser-brethren millennial sheeples", (was that not already attempted in the middle of the last century?). The Luke passage clearly disputes what you profess because Yeshua tells them that the kingdom of God does not come with observation and neither shall they say, "See here! or, see there!", "Look here! or, look there!" As stated time and again already in this thread: "For the kingdom of God is inside you", (GSN#1787 entos). If you desire to prove your point that the kingdom of God is all around us and in our midst then you have an alternative passage which you have either not recognized, neglected, or ignored in making your case. However, it does not read "entos" (inside) but rather "mesos" (midst).

AGAIN:

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.


Original Strong's Ref. #1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun):
KJV--within.

Matthew 18:19-20 KJV
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.


Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.

Your argument requires changing the definitions of words to suit your paradigm. No thanks ...
:)
Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within [GSN#1787 entos] you.


Matthew 18:19-20 KJV
19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst [GSN#3319 mesos] of them.

You have stolen the meaning of "mesos" and applied it to "entos" so as to have your pound of flesh kingdom.
However if Yeshua is seated at the right hand of God then Matthew 18:20 refers to the Mercy Seat and Cherubim brethren:
Therefore your "fowls of the air" simply do not fly in the heavenly kingdom of the Word of Elohim . . . :lol:
Matthew 24:23-26 KJV
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if
it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25.
Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you,
Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Mark 13:23 KJV
21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23. But take ye heed:
behold, I have foretold you all things.


You will not be seeing Yeshua return in a physical form with your natural eyes of the natural flesh.
If you do, and you believe it, you will have disregarded the Word of God, (and maybe for the last time).
Even Paul saw no man but rather a brilliant white Light which temporarily blinded him. :)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,

Thanks for your reply, but you didn't really answer my question. I asked if your way of using the language to limit the meaning to what's on the surface of the page is 'biblical'? You said:


Your two statements 'God is an OBJECTIVE GOD, not a subjective One' and 'Without a good understanding of what one is reading, how in the world can he expect to correctly understand the thoughts behind the words?!' declare that you believe people with no Greek cannot 'expect... correctly ... to understand' God's 'thoughts'. Only people educated in a certain way have the insider knowledge which permits them to say what God's thinks. Hmm. Your claim that God is not 'subjective', flies in the face of His entire revelation of Himself throughout scripture. I don't find any of that in my Bible. Especially, I don't find that Messiah was not cut off from His people, in fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy. I find the complete opposite. As another thread title asks 'Are we reading the same Bible?' Or should the question really be about the people doing the reading?

What is it that's happened to me and daq and Rex and others who pass through here, that has not happened to you?

I'm sure you'll find many others like you, who cannot 'see' beneath the surface of the page, and who only 'hear' what is written, and that is exactly the difficulty Jesus faced during His earthly ministry - people who didn't know what He was talking about. They heard a word like 'leaven', and assumed He was talking about bread. At least the disciples had a suspicion He might be meaning something else. They were correct but they didn't know what.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Did the 'Spirit of truth' come?

Did He 'guide' the disciples into 'all truth'? Does He come to disciples today, and guide them into all truth?

Can you 'bear' to receive a greater revelation of Christ?
...
I'm sorry that my response didn't really answer the question for you. Is my way of using the language "to limit the meaning to what's on the surface of the page" 'biblical'? That's a really slanted way to ask the question, isn't it? Yes, it is biblical because it STICKS TO WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, without expanding it to all the confusion of subjective imagination. (Notice how my answer is slanted in the opposite direction.)

See, you're under the assumption that a "deeper meaning" (as you describe it) of the Scriptures (1) exists, and (2) is better than a mere "surface of the page" meaning. I operate under a different mindset. I believe that what is frequently called a "deeper meaning" is EISOGESIS, a reading INTO the Scriptures something that neither the author nor the Author intended to convey and is subjective thought INJECTED by the "scholar"/"expositor" INTO the Scriptures that was never intended to be there in the first place!

Sorry for bringing politics into this, but it's similar to the Republican/Democrat debates of the present: Democrats want CHANGE, i.e., they want SOME movement - some action - to get us out of the rut in which we're stuck; so, they advise CHANGE, HOWEVER one may define the word! Republicans admit that sometimes change is good, but caution the nation against change FOR CHANGE'S SAKE! Sometimes, change can be positive, but without a clear direction, change is often more negative than positive!

If one is on the side of a hill, for example, and desires to go upward to the top of the hill, it is inadvisable to choose a direction at random or even to move at all without a clear understanding of WHICH WAY IS ULTIMATELY UPHILL! Even if it were a consistent grade, one's random choice at direction is going to be greater than 50% going downhill and less than 50% going uphill (because of the hill's curvature around its circumference)! And, if the hill is not perfectly conical, how is one to know whether what SEEMS like a direction that goes uphill doesn't instead lead to a downhill direction?

It is my opinion that allowing for gay marriage or for abortion on demand is clearly (according to the Scriptures) in a negative direction for our nation to be going. It is my opinion that "more government" is the wrong direction for our nation to be heading. We should want LESS government involvement and a set of laws that reflect the WILL OF GOD, rather than a "majority-is-right" morality. (It is also highly doubtful that gay marriage and abortion on demand is truly the will of the "majority.")

Shouldn't one treat God's Word at the very least in a respectful way? Shouldn't one want to know what the AUTHOR of a book was attempting to convey BEFORE ascribing other thoughts to his work? Most people don't even know what the message of a particular book of the Bible IS without all the input from the various speakers who use the book to say something else! Isn't that a major problem? Isn't THAT the SHAME?!

Now, you've got a wrong idea of what I was saying. I am NOT saying that one must know Greek and Hebrew to understand the Scriptures. I am saying that one must know Greek and Hebrew to dig truly deeper into the Scriptures. One can read through the Scriptures in English in whatever English version he or she should choose - whatever version he or she finds easiest to read - for a cursory understanding of a passage, but if one wants REALLY to understand the details of a passage, one must admit that the Scriptures were not originally written in English! It's that simple. So, what're you going to do? God doesn't speak through His Ruach haQodesh (His Holy Spirit) INSTEAD of the knowledge He has given about the Hebrew and Greek languages; He speaks through His Ruach haQodesh THROUGH the knowledge He has given about the Hebrew and Greek languages! It's just like anything else about the Bible. God didn't write the Bible INSTEAD of working through His prophets, although He certainly could have done so. He wrote the Bible THROUGH His prophets!

It's just like that story about the man caught on His rooftop in the flood. A rowboat goes by and offers him a ride, and he responds, "No thanks; God will save me!" A motorboat goes by and offers him a ride to safety, but he continues to respond, "No thanks; God will save me!" Finally, a helicopter flies up and offers him a ride, and he again says, "No thanks; God will save me!" The man drowns and in "heaven" he says to God, "God, why didn't you save me?" God says, "I sent you a rowboat, a motorboat, and a helicopter! What more do you want?!"

God has GIVEN us a better understanding of the Hebrew and Greek languages by the power of His Holy Spirit to help us understand His Word better; what more do you want?! QUIT LOOKING A GIFT HORSE IN THE MOUTH!!! Is that too plain? I HOPE SO!

What is it that's happened to you and daq and Rex and others who pass through here, that has not happened to me? Simple. Delusion. You have this hyped up sense of what the Ruach haQodesh does for an individual that is NEVER PROMISED IN THE SCRIPTURES!!! When YHWH asked Shlomo what he desired, Shlomo (Solomon) gave this answer:


1 Kings 3:6-9
6 And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day.
7 And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in.
8 And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.
9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
KJV

When I was in my teens, I prayed a similar prayer. I said, "Lord, without your help, how can I possibly know the truth that comes from your Word? Please give me a portion of Solomon's wisdom that I might not be deceived by all the errors that are floating about. Help me to see through all the fluff and superstitions and flowery speech and see the bare truth of your Bible, because I don't want to be responsible for leading others astray in anything I say in a teaching position." And, I believe that God answered my prayer in a similar way to how He answered Shlomo:


1 Kings 3:10-14
10 And the speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.
11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;
12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.
13 And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days.
14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.
KJV

I am VERY AWARE of the gravity of teaching that detracts from God's Word and leads others astray, and I avoid it like the plague! There is but ONE God and He is IMMUTABLE! He DOES NOT CHANGE! What He said was wrong 4,000 years ago is STILL WRONG TODAY! What He called "sin" 4,000 years ago is STILL "SIN" TODAY! What He said was right 4,000 years ago is STILL RIGHT TODAY! What He called "righteousness" 4,000 years ago is STILL "RIGHTEOUSNESS" TODAY!

Remember James's warning:


James 3:1
1 My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
KJV

If we're going to teach something, we'd better be DARN SURE that we're teaching the truth, or we're going to answer to God for what we teach!


Matthew 12:36-37
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
KJV

Furthermore, God has CONFIRMED the instruction He has given me time and time again by how well the pieces fit together without a need for modification of the basic model from which I operate. I don't have to amend anything I believe, because God started me with certain truths that were immutable, and He has organized and orchestrated my studies to tie it all together.

Now, you may call that bragging, but if I'm bragging on anybody, I'm bragging on God who has worked miracles in my life. There's nothing good in me except what God has put there with His Presence - His Shekinah - through the Ruach haQodesh!
 
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daq

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Olam Haba
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, dragonfly.

No. It's as simple as the mathematical formula, "Ezel (Ezel) : Aatseel (Azal, Azel) :: Excel : Edsel," read "'Ezel' is to 'Aatseel' as 'Excel' is to 'Edsel'!" The Hebrew letter zayin (z) is as different from a tsadday (ts) as a "D" is from a "B!" The problem is STRICTLY in transliteration into English! The zayin SHOULD be rendered a "z," but the tsadday should NOT have been rendered a "z!" They may somewhat sound similar, but they are CERTAINLY not the same!

They don't even come from the same root words! Ezel (Strong's OT:237) comes from aazel (OT:235) meaning "to go away"; Aatseel (OT:682) comes from aatsal (OT:680) meaning "to join!" They are as different as "night" is from "light!"

And, all that daq has done is to cloud the issue with all the gobbledegook that he spills out of his mind onto the keyboard!

But, hey. Praise him all you want; you will anyway. Believe him, if you want. I don't, and I won't!

I did not come here to gain a following and jealousy stemming from pride is the first sin of Cain.


Retrobyter said:
What is it that's happened to you and daq and Rex and others who pass through here, that has not happened to me? Simple. Delusion. You have this hyped up sense of what the Ruach haQodesh does for an individual that is NEVER PROMISED IN THE SCRIPTURES!!! When YHWH asked Shlomo what he desired, Shlomo (Solomon) gave this answer:

When I was in my teens, I prayed a similar prayer. I said, "Lord, without your help, how can I possibly know the truth that comes from your Word? Please give me a portion of Solomon's wisdom that I might not be deceived by all the errors that are floating about. Help me to see through all the fluff and superstitions and flowery speech and see the bare truth of your Bible, because I don't want to be responsible for leading others astray in anything I say in a teaching position." And, I believe that God answered my prayer in a similar way to how He answered Shlomo:

I am VERY AWARE of the gravity of teaching that detracts from God's Word and leads others astray, and I avoid it like the plague! There is but ONE God and He is IMMUTABLE! He DOES NOT CHANGE! What He said was wrong 4,000 years ago is STILL WRONG TODAY! What He called "sin" 4,000 years ago is STILL "SIN" TODAY! What He said was right 4,000 years ago is STILL RIGHT TODAY! What He called "righteousness" 4,000 years ago is STILL "RIGHTEOUSNESS" TODAY!

Remember James's warning:

James 3:1
1 My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
KJV

If we're going to teach something, we'd better be DARN SURE that we're teaching the truth, or we're going to answer to God for what we teach!

Furthermore, God has CONFIRMED the instruction He has given me time and time again by how well the pieces fit together without a need for modification of the basic model from which I operate. I don't have to amend anything I believe, because God started me with certain truths that were immutable, and He has organized and orchestrated my studies to tie it all together.

Now, you may call that bragging, but if I'm bragging on anybody, I'm bragging on God who has worked miracles in my life. There's nothing good in me except what God has put there with His Presence - His Shekinah - through the Ruach haQodesh!
You are indeed "bragging" (your own words) and the result is that you place yourself above the understanding of others because of your "experience" rather than because of the Scripture. What I have shown has been done so by and through the Scripture. The very thing which you accuse others of doing is what you do yourself when you state that you know you are correct because God has shown you that you are correct. It is circular logic which puts yourself and your reasoning on a higher ground than those who disagree with your theology. However, your theology does not match up with the whole of Scripture and this has been shown time and time again. Concerning the proper name "Shekinah" it is indeed a proper name yet is found nowhere in the Scripture but rather is derived from the teachings of Kabbalah. How is it that you have been made to think that you are correct in judging others to be "adding to the Scripture" when you yourself have just added a proper name for God that is not found in his Word?

Now unless dragonfly, (as the OP-starter of this thread) wants to go in a different direction can we get back to the topic once the OP has responded to your comments? (or we can even start another thread). Since you claim to have been "given the wisdom of God" and likewise quote entire passages of transliterated Greek showing yourself to be knowledgeable in both Greek and Hebrew, even so much as to make the claim of being "a Hebrew scholar", Retrobyter, can you assist me? Please explain why modern scholarship insists upon having two different entries concerning GSN#680 "haptomai" and GSN#681 "hapto" when Thayer's Lexicon has only one entry for both words? Notice the spelling difference, (highlighted in red below) between "hapto" (ἅπτω) and "haptomai" (ἅπτομαι) but not when it comes to the Thayer's entry where only the Strong's Number is changed:

Bible Hub by Biblos
Strong's Greek ἅπτομαι
680. haptomai
Strong's Concordance
haptomai: touch.
Original Word: ἅπτομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: haptomai
Phonetic Spelling: (hap'-tom-ahee)
Short Definition: I touch or handle
Definition: prop: I fasten to; I lay hold of, touch, know carnally.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 680: ἅπτω
ἅπτω; 1 aorist participle ἅψας; (cf. Latinapto, German heften); (from Homer down);
1. properly, to fasten to, make adhere to; hence, specifically to fasten fire to a thing, to kindle, set on fire, (often so in Attic): λύχνον, Luke 8:16; Luke 11:33; Luke 15:8 (Aristophanes nub. 57; Theophrastus, char. 20 (18); Josephus, Antiquities 4, 3, 4); πῦρ, Luke 22:55 (T Tr text WH περιαψάντων); πυράν, Acts 28:2 L T Tr WH.
2. Middle (present ά῾πτομαι); imperfect ἡπτομην (Mark 6:56 R G Tr marginal reading); 1 aorist ἡψάμην; in the Sept. generally for נָגַע , הִגִּיעַ ; properly, to fasten oneself to, adhere to, cling to (Homer, Iliad 8. 67);
a. to touch, followed by the object in genitive (Winers Grammar, § 30, 8 c.; Buttmann, 167 (146); cf. Donaldson, p. 483): Matthew 8:3; Mark 3:10; Mark 7:33; Mark 8:22, etc.; Luke 18:15; Luke 22:51 — very often in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In John 20:17, μή μου ἅπτου is to be explained thus: Do not handle me to see whether I am still clothed with a body; there is no need of such an examination, for not yet etc.; cf. Baumg.-Crusius and Meyer at the passage (as given by Hackett in Bib. Sacr. for 1868, p. 779f, or B. D. American edition, p. 1813f).
b. γυναικός, of carnal intercourse with a woman, or cohabitation, 1 Corinthians 7:1, like the Latintangere, Horace sat. 1, 2, 54: Terence, Heaut. 4, 4, 15, and the Hebrew נָגַע , Genesis 20:6; Proverbs 6:29 (Plato, de legg. viii. 840 a.; Plutarch, Alex. Magn c.21).
c. with allusion to the levitical precept ἀκαθάρτου μή ἅπτεσθε, have no contact with the Gentiles, no fellowship in their heathenish practices, 2 Corinthians 6:17 (from Isaiah 52:11); and in the Jewish sense, μή ἅψῃ, Colossians 2:21 (the things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so that, celibacy and abstinence from various kinds of food and drink are recommended; cf. DeWette at the passage (but also Meyer and Lightfoot; on the distinction between the stronger term ἅπτεσθαι (to handle?) and the more delicate θιγεῖν (to touch?) cf. the two commentators just named and Trench, § xvii. In classic Greek also ἅπτεσθαι is the stronger term, denoting often to lay hold of, hold fast, appropriate; in its carnal reference differing from θιγγάνειν by suggesting unlawfulness. θιγγάνειν, is used of touching by the hand as a means of knowledge, handling for a purpose; ψηλαφαν signifies to feel around with the fingers or hands, especially in searching for something, often to grope, fumble, cf. ψηλαφινδα blindman's buff. Schmidt, chapter 10.)).
d. to touch i. e. assail: τίνος, anyone, 1 John 5:18 (1 Chronicles 16:22, etc.). (Compare: ἀνάπτω, καθάπτω, περιάπτω.)
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

http://biblesuite.com/greek/680.htm

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Strong's Greek ἅπτω
681. haptó
Strong's Concordance
haptó: to fasten to, lay hold of
Original Word: ἅπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: haptó
Phonetic Spelling: (hap'-to)
Short Definition: I kindle, light
Definition: I kindle, light.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 681: ἅπτω
ἅπτω; 1 aorist participle ἅψας; (cf. Latinapto, German heften); (from Homer down);
1. properly, to fasten to, make adhere to; hence, specifically to fasten fire to a thing, to kindle, set on fire, (often so in Attic): λύχνον, Luke 8:16; Luke 11:33; Luke 15:8 (Aristophanes nub. 57; Theophrastus, char. 20 (18); Josephus, Antiquities 4, 3, 4); πῦρ, Luke 22:55 (T Tr text WH περιαψάντων); πυράν, Acts 28:2 L T Tr WH.
2. Middle (present ά῾πτομαι); imperfect ἡπτομην (Mark 6:56 R G Tr marginal reading); 1 aorist ἡψάμην; in the Sept. generally for נָגַע , הִגִּיעַ ; properly, to fasten oneself to, adhere to, cling to (Homer, Iliad 8. 67);
a. to touch, followed by the object in genitive (Winers Grammar, § 30, 8 c.; Buttmann, 167 (146); cf. Donaldson, p. 483): Matthew 8:3; Mark 3:10; Mark 7:33; Mark 8:22, etc.; Luke 18:15; Luke 22:51 — very often in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In John 20:17, μή μου ἅπτου is to be explained thus: Do not handle me to see whether I am still clothed with a body; there is no need of such an examination, for not yet etc.; cf. Baumg.-Crusius and Meyer at the passage (as given by Hackett in Bib. Sacr. for 1868, p. 779f, or B. D. American edition, p. 1813f).
b. γυναικός, of carnal intercourse with a woman, or cohabitation, 1 Corinthians 7:1, like the Latintangere, Horace sat. 1, 2, 54: Terence, Heaut. 4, 4, 15, and the Hebrew נָגַע , Genesis 20:6; Proverbs 6:29 (Plato, de legg. viii. 840 a.; Plutarch, Alex. Magn c.21).
c. with allusion to the levitical precept ἀκαθάρτου μή ἅπτεσθε, have no contact with the Gentiles, no fellowship in their heathenish practices, 2 Corinthians 6:17 (from Isaiah 52:11); and in the Jewish sense, μή ἅψῃ, Colossians 2:21 (the things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so that, celibacy and abstinence from various kinds of food and drink are recommended; cf. DeWette at the passage (but also Meyer and Lightfoot; on the distinction between the stronger term ἅπτεσθαι (to handle?) and the more delicate θιγεῖν (to touch?) cf. the two commentators just named and Trench, § xvii. In classic Greek also ἅπτεσθαι is the stronger term, denoting often to lay hold of, hold fast, appropriate; in its carnal reference differing from θιγγάνειν by suggesting unlawfulness. θιγγάνειν, is used of touching by the hand as a means of knowledge, handling for a purpose; ψηλαφαν signifies to feel around with the fingers or hands, especially in searching for something, often to grope, fumble, cf. ψηλαφινδα blindman's buff. Schmidt, chapter 10.)).
d. to touch i. e. assail: τίνος, anyone, 1 John 5:18 (1 Chronicles 16:22, etc.). (Compare: ἀνάπτω, καθάπτω, περιάπτω.)
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

http://biblesuite.com/greek/681.htm

Please explain why the Thayer's Lexicon entries are IDENTICAL for two supposedly different Greek words? The same thing occurs with the Blue Letter Bible site which offers image files of the Thayer's entries for the two different words and yet both files are taken from the same entry of same page of the original Thayers' Lexicon:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G680&t=KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G681&t=KJV

WHY is this? And what is the issue? And why is it critical to our doctrine?
Why did Strong separate them numerically? And was it correct to do so or is it misleading?
:)
 

ENOCH2010

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Aug 15, 2012
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daq ,After His resurrection, did Jesus not tell Thomas to thrust his hand into the wound in His side, did He not tell Thomas to put his finger into the nail wounds. That sounds like a real body to me, not some spirit floating around.
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
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Hi Enoch,

Jesus called it 'flesh' and for sure Thomas did what John described, but the context is John 20:26b

'...then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.


Likewise, we have a similar event in reverse, in

Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; ...'


Of course you know all this, so is this the 'flesh' you're expecting to see?



Hi Retrobyter,

There are other examples in scripture apart from Solomon, although when we ask for the Lord's will to be done in our lives, as for you, He has done it.

When I asked 'is it biblical', I partly meant you to scroll through your memory for other examples of people who have a different gift (than what you asked).


You don't see, but I'll try to explain it very briefly; Jesus Christ is the great interpreter. Look at how often He had to interpret a parable to the disciples.

Look at Daniel, being able to interpret Nebuchadnezzar's dream? He didn't have the written word, but God's Spirit was upon him.

Look at the interpretation given to the Midianite in the tent, while Gideon was listening from outside.

Look at the Pharisees, knowing that Jesus was speaking about them, and desiring to kill Him rather than be corrected.


Under the New Covenant, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Giver also enters the believer and makes His abode in him. From Him comes the understanding which enables teaching; from Him comes the (gift of) interpretation for the one who has been given a prophecy in tongues; from Him comes the call to repentance, which burdens those called to evangelism; from Him comes the word to be preached, by which those who receive it mixed with the faith that it creates, can enter into new areas of the salvation being held out to them in very practical ways, in Christ.

Once you 'get' that this is how the Holy Spirit works in and through believers, then when Paul asks the Galatians (chapter 3) the question:

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

his phrase 'the hearing of faith' is extremely significant. He is reminding them that (although we know there were miracles recorded in the Old Testament) the person working miracles can do it only if they have heard something from the Lord, by the Holy Spirit. Paul could have asked any question which touched on the ministries he lists in the first part of Ephesians 4, and the answer would have been the same: 'by the hearing of faith'.


I am sure you have a life outside of posting on CyB. So does everyone else. It is very difficult to testify in writing, out of context, without sounding as if one is bragging; but being led by the Spirit as a lifestyle necessitates 'the hearing of faith' continuously, long after one's first response to the gospel.
 

daq

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Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
ENOCH2010 said:
daq ,After His resurrection, did Jesus not tell Thomas to thrust his hand into the wound in His side, did He not tell Thomas to put his finger into the nail wounds. That sounds like a real body to me, not some spirit floating around.
Of course Yeshua had a body at that time and therefore could not yet light the fire.
Next double blind Bartimaeus son of Timaeus accuser of the brethren step up and take your swipe. :lol:
 

Retrobyter

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Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
I did not come here to gain a following and jealousy stemming from pride is the first sin of Cain.
I didn't say that you did.

daq said:
You are indeed "bragging" (your own words) and the result is that you place yourself above the understanding of others because of your "experience" rather than because of the Scripture. What I have shown has been done so by and through the Scripture. The very thing which you accuse others of doing is what you do yourself when you state that you know you are correct because God has shown you that you are correct. It is circular logic which puts yourself and your reasoning on a higher ground than those who disagree with your theology. However, your theology does not match up with the whole of Scripture and this has been shown time and time again. Concerning the proper name "Shekinah" it is indeed a proper name yet is found nowhere in the Scripture but rather is derived from the teachings of Kabbalah. How is it that you have been made to think that you are correct in judging others to be "adding to the Scripture" when you yourself have just added a proper name for God that is not found in his Word?
What do I care about an "experience?" That's not my point, brother, and YES, I will continually brag on my Father! After all, that's what it means to glorify Him. One cannot glorify Him without making Him famous, and one can only make Him famous by telling what He has done for you TO OTHERS! So, I brag on Him to others! It was HE who made any difference in my life, not me! ANYBODY could pray as I did, and ANYBODY could be so blessed by my Father - OUR Father! In fact, I pray that EVERYONE who names the authority of the Messiah would do so!

If I didn't admit that I knew the truth, I'd be guilty of lying. I'm not going to do that. But, the truth I have been shown does NOT come from me but comes from the compounding effects of the Scriptures AS THEY SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD. It's really quite simple. For instance,...

When Yeshua` ascended up into the "heaven" He was ascending into the "sky." His students watched Him go until His body was hidden behind a cloud. The two men (notice that it does NOT say they were "angels") told them, "This SAME YESHUA` whom you saw go into the sky shall so come IN LIKE MANNER as you saw Him go." It doesn't take a lot of manipulation to simply admit that that means He will return in His glorified body that could be touched and handled JUST AS HE LEFT! Very simply, since He has not yet come bodily back to this earth, then that action is yet in the future. That is a conclusion that comes DIRECTLY FROM THE SCRIPTURE!

When Yochanan (John) saw the Huge City, the New Jerusalem or Yerushalayim haChadashah, coming down from God out of the sky, it landed upon the New Earth. It was no stretch of the imagination to allow the description of the city to be that of a literal city. Some may find it hard to believe that such a city could exist, but the Scriptures are clear that such a city DOES exist. To say that it does not literally exist is to make oneself judge and jury on the reality of the New Jerusalem.

That's nothing short of hypercriticism - placing oneself ABOVE the Word of God. The hypercritic says that "Jonah wasn't really swallowed by a whale or a huge fish because it is inconceivable. It's too far-fetched." For me, I'm going to believe it happened because God SAID it happened; who am I or who would I think I am to say otherwise?! In short, hypercriticism is SELF IDOLATRY - WORSHIPPING ONESELF as being GREATER than God or His Word, thinking that one knows better than God does! That hypercriticism is something we must ALL guard against!
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
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Olam Haba
daq said:
You are indeed "bragging" (your own words) and the result is that you place yourself above the understanding of others because of your "experience" rather than because of the Scripture. What I have shown has been done so by and through the Scripture. The very thing which you accuse others of doing is what you do yourself when you state that you know you are correct because God has shown you that you are correct. It is circular logic which puts yourself and your reasoning on a higher ground than those who disagree with your theology. However, your theology does not match up with the whole of Scripture and this has been shown time and time again. Concerning the proper name "Shekinah" it is indeed a proper name yet is found nowhere in the Scripture but rather is derived from the teachings of Kabbalah. How is it that you have been made to think that you are correct in judging others to be "adding to the Scripture" when you yourself have just added a proper name for God that is not found in his Word?

Now unless dragonfly, (as the OP-starter of this thread) wants to go in a different direction can we get back to the topic once the OP has responded to your comments? (or we can even start another thread). Since you claim to have been "given the wisdom of God" and likewise quote entire passages of transliterated Greek showing yourself to be knowledgeable in both Greek and Hebrew, even so much as to make the claim of being "a Hebrew scholar", Retrobyter, can you assist me? Please explain why modern scholarship insists upon having two different entries concerning GSN#680 "haptomai" and GSN#681 "hapto" when Thayer's Lexicon has only one entry for both words? Notice the spelling difference, (highlighted in red below) between "hapto" (ἅπτω) and "haptomai" (ἅπτομαι) but not when it comes to the Thayer's entry where only the Strong's Number is changed:

Bible Hub by Biblos
http://biblesuite.com/greek/680.htm
Strong's Greek ἅπτομαι
680. haptomai
Strong's Concordance
haptomai: touch.
Original Word: ἅπτομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: haptomai
Phonetic Spelling: (hap'-tom-ahee)
Short Definition: I touch or handle
Definition: prop: I fasten to; I lay hold of, touch, know carnally.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 680: ἅπτω
ἅπτω; 1 aorist participle ἅψας; (cf. Latinapto, German heften); (from Homer down);
1. properly, to fasten to, make adhere to; hence, specifically to fasten fire to a thing, to kindle, set on fire, (often so in Attic): λύχνον, Luke 8:16; Luke 11:33; Luke 15:8 (Aristophanes nub. 57; Theophrastus, char. 20 (18); Josephus, Antiquities 4, 3, 4); πῦρ, Luke 22:55 (T Tr text WH περιαψάντων); πυράν, Acts 28:2 L T Tr WH.
2. Middle (present ά῾πτομαι); imperfect ἡπτομην (Mark 6:56 R G Tr marginal reading); 1 aorist ἡψάμην; in the Sept. generally for נָגַע , הִגִּיעַ ; properly, to fasten oneself to, adhere to, cling to (Homer, Iliad 8. 67);
a. to touch, followed by the object in genitive (Winers Grammar, § 30, 8 c.; Buttmann, 167 (146); cf. Donaldson, p. 483): Matthew 8:3; Mark 3:10; Mark 7:33; Mark 8:22, etc.; Luke 18:15; Luke 22:51 — very often in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In John 20:17, μή μου ἅπτου is to be explained thus: Do not handle me to see whether I am still clothed with a body; there is no need of such an examination, for not yet etc.; cf. Baumg.-Crusius and Meyer at the passage (as given by Hackett in Bib. Sacr. for 1868, p. 779f, or B. D. American edition, p. 1813f).
b. γυναικός, of carnal intercourse with a woman, or cohabitation, 1 Corinthians 7:1, like the Latintangere, Horace sat. 1, 2, 54: Terence, Heaut. 4, 4, 15, and the Hebrew נָגַע , Genesis 20:6; Proverbs 6:29 (Plato, de legg. viii. 840 a.; Plutarch, Alex. Magn c.21).
c. with allusion to the levitical precept ἀκαθάρτου μή ἅπτεσθε, have no contact with the Gentiles, no fellowship in their heathenish practices, 2 Corinthians 6:17 (from Isaiah 52:11); and in the Jewish sense, μή ἅψῃ, Colossians 2:21 (the things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so that, celibacy and abstinence from various kinds of food and drink are recommended; cf. DeWette at the passage (but also Meyer and Lightfoot; on the distinction between the stronger term ἅπτεσθαι (to handle?) and the more delicate θιγεῖν (to touch?) cf. the two commentators just named and Trench, § xvii. In classic Greek also ἅπτεσθαι is the stronger term, denoting often to lay hold of, hold fast, appropriate; in its carnal reference differing from θιγγάνειν by suggesting unlawfulness. θιγγάνειν, is used of touching by the hand as a means of knowledge, handling for a purpose; ψηλαφαν signifies to feel around with the fingers or hands, especially in searching for something, often to grope, fumble, cf. ψηλαφινδα blindman's buff. Schmidt, chapter 10.)).
d. to touch i. e. assail: τίνος, anyone, 1 John 5:18 (1 Chronicles 16:22, etc.). (Compare: ἀνάπτω, καθάπτω, περιάπτω.)
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

http://biblesuite.com/greek/680.htm

Bible Hub by Biblos
Strong's Greek ἅπτω
681. haptó
Strong's Concordance
haptó: to fasten to, lay hold of
Original Word: ἅπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: haptó
Phonetic Spelling: (hap'-to)
Short Definition: I kindle, light
Definition: I kindle, light.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 681: ἅπτω
ἅπτω; 1 aorist participle ἅψας; (cf. Latinapto, German heften); (from Homer down);
1. properly, to fasten to, make adhere to; hence, specifically to fasten fire to a thing, to kindle, set on fire, (often so in Attic): λύχνον, Luke 8:16; Luke 11:33; Luke 15:8 (Aristophanes nub. 57; Theophrastus, char. 20 (18); Josephus, Antiquities 4, 3, 4); πῦρ, Luke 22:55 (T Tr text WH περιαψάντων); πυράν, Acts 28:2 L T Tr WH.
2. Middle (present ά῾πτομαι); imperfect ἡπτομην (Mark 6:56 R G Tr marginal reading); 1 aorist ἡψάμην; in the Sept. generally for נָגַע , הִגִּיעַ ; properly, to fasten oneself to, adhere to, cling to (Homer, Iliad 8. 67);
a. to touch, followed by the object in genitive (Winers Grammar, § 30, 8 c.; Buttmann, 167 (146); cf. Donaldson, p. 483): Matthew 8:3; Mark 3:10; Mark 7:33; Mark 8:22, etc.; Luke 18:15; Luke 22:51 — very often in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In John 20:17, μή μου ἅπτου is to be explained thus: Do not handle me to see whether I am still clothed with a body; there is no need of such an examination, for not yet etc.; cf. Baumg.-Crusius and Meyer at the passage (as given by Hackett in Bib. Sacr. for 1868, p. 779f, or B. D. American edition, p. 1813f).
b. γυναικός, of carnal intercourse with a woman, or cohabitation, 1 Corinthians 7:1, like the Latintangere, Horace sat. 1, 2, 54: Terence, Heaut. 4, 4, 15, and the Hebrew נָגַע , Genesis 20:6; Proverbs 6:29 (Plato, de legg. viii. 840 a.; Plutarch, Alex. Magn c.21).
c. with allusion to the levitical precept ἀκαθάρτου μή ἅπτεσθε, have no contact with the Gentiles, no fellowship in their heathenish practices, 2 Corinthians 6:17 (from Isaiah 52:11); and in the Jewish sense, μή ἅψῃ, Colossians 2:21 (the things not to be touched appear to be both women and certain kinds of food, so that, celibacy and abstinence from various kinds of food and drink are recommended; cf. DeWette at the passage (but also Meyer and Lightfoot; on the distinction between the stronger term ἅπτεσθαι (to handle?) and the more delicate θιγεῖν (to touch?) cf. the two commentators just named and Trench, § xvii. In classic Greek also ἅπτεσθαι is the stronger term, denoting often to lay hold of, hold fast, appropriate; in its carnal reference differing from θιγγάνειν by suggesting unlawfulness. θιγγάνειν, is used of touching by the hand as a means of knowledge, handling for a purpose; ψηλαφαν signifies to feel around with the fingers or hands, especially in searching for something, often to grope, fumble, cf. ψηλαφινδα blindman's buff. Schmidt, chapter 10.)).
d. to touch i. e. assail: τίνος, anyone, 1 John 5:18 (1 Chronicles 16:22, etc.). (Compare: ἀνάπτω, καθάπτω, περιάπτω.)
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

http://biblesuite.com/greek/681.htm

Please explain why the Thayer's Lexicon entries are IDENTICAL for two supposedly different Greek words? The same thing occurs with the Blue Letter Bible site which offers image files of the Thayer's entries for the two different words and yet both files are taken from the same entry of same page of the original Thayers' Lexicon:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G680&t=KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G681&t=KJV

WHY is this? And what is the issue? And why is it critical to our doctrine?
Why did Strong separate them numerically? And was it correct to do so or is it misleading?
:)
daq said:
Of course Yeshua had a body at that time and therefore could not yet light the fire.
Next double blind Bartimaeus son of Timaeus accuser of the brethren step up and take your swipe. :lol:
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

That's nothing short of hypercriticism - placing oneself ABOVE the Word of God. The hypercritic says that "Jonah wasn't really swallowed by a whale or a huge fish because it is inconceivable. It's too far-fetched." For me, I'm going to believe it happened because God SAID it happened; who am I or who would I think I am to say otherwise?! In short, hypercriticism is SELF IDOLATRY - WORSHIPPING ONESELF as being GREATER than God or His Word, thinking that one knows better than God does! That hypercriticism is something we must ALL guard against!

I see it did not take you long to take another swipe at the air Bartimaeus Barjesus! :lol:
Clearly you have no interest in the Truth but rather casting more accusations and disrupting threads.


Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.

It's really quite simple. For instance,...

When Yeshua` ascended up into the "heaven" He was ascending into the "sky." His students watched Him go until His body was hidden behind a cloud.

Your statement that "his body was hidden behind a cloud" is your imagination adding to the Scripture again.
Both you and Enoch2010 were already at the following thread where much of this was explained:


daq said:
It did not say it was not a real event but rather that the statement of the two messengers in brilliant white raiment was an idiomatic statement. When will you learn that without Torah we know nothing of what things Yeshua spoke, taught, and expounded? The story of the passing of Jacob in Egypt and his so-called "embalming" (most English translations) has everything to do with the burial of Messiah and how it was performed. Israel was not however "embalmed" but rather "spiced" upon his passing in the land of Egypt. Likewise the physicians of Joseph, (not those of Pharaoh) which performed the spicing ceremony are called rapha'-healers, and this form of rapha' is likewise from where the name of the messenger Rapha'el is derived.

Genesis 50:2-3 KJV
2. And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians [HSN#7495 rapha'] to embalm [HSN#2590 chanat] his father: and the physicians [HSN#7495 rapha'] embalmed [HSN#2590 chanat] Israel.
3.
And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: [HSN#2590 chanat] and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

Original Strong's Ref. #7495
Romanized rapha'
Pronounced raw-faw'
or raphah {raw-faw'}; a primitive root; properly, to mend (by stitching), i.e. (figuratively) to cure:
KJV--cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See HSN7503.

Original Strong's Ref. #2590
Romanized chanat
Pronounced khaw-nat'
a primitive root; to spice; by implication, to embalm; also to ripen:
KJV--embalm, put forth.

Forty Days are "fulfilled" for Israel, ("for so it is with those having been spiced").

The same Forty Days are again fulfilled in Yeshua who was likewise "spiced" at burial:

John 19:38-40 KJV
38. And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40. Then took they the body of Jesus,
and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Forty Days ~ 17 Nisan to 27 Iyyar ~ Acts 1:9

Luke 24:42 KJV (17 Nisan - Firstfruits of the Harvest)
42. And they gave him a piece of a broiled [baked on coals] fish, and of an honeycomb.


Elijah goes the same Forty Days on a small meal to Horeb the Mountain of God:

1 Kings 19:1-8 KJV
5. And as he lay and slept under a juniper tree, behold, then an angel touched him, and said unto him, Arise and eat.
6. And he looked, and, behold, there was a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water at his head. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again.
7. And the angel of the Lord came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat;
because the journey is too great for thee.
8. And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.

Acts 1:2-3 KJV
2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs,
being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Yeshua was seen of them Forty Days and then received up into a cloud on 27 Iyyar.
27 Iyyar is the Day wherein Noah and his family came forth from the Ark and offered up burnt offerings to God:

Genesis 8:14-21 KJV
14. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21.
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

And the Father smelled the sweet savour of THE SMOKE of the burnt offering ascending up into heaven.

Acts 1:9 KJV (27 Iyyar)
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.


So you see Paul is correct and you are not. And why? Because Paul loved the Father, loved Torah, and then he met Yeshua on the road to Damascus. And when Paul met Yeshua what he saw was a pure white blinding Light; no man, no body, only the Light. :)
Is Bible prophecy designed as a parable? Post#32

The Father is Spirit, non-corporeal, and Holy Holy Holy! The physical is temporary and dissolves.
There is nothing that can be done by any man for those who willingly choose to remain double blind.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
I see it did not take you long to take another swipe at the air Bartimaeus Barjesus! :lol:
Clearly you have no interest in the Truth but rather casting more accusations and disrupting threads.




Your statement that "his body was hidden behind a cloud" is your imagination adding to the Scripture again.
Both you and Enoch2010 were already at the following thread where much of this was explained:



Is Bible prophecy designed as a parable? Post#32

The Father is Spirit, non-corporeal, and Holy Holy Holy! The physical is temporary and dissolves.
There is nothing that can be done by any man for those who willingly choose to remain double blind.
Thank you for quoting so much. It makes it much easier to see JUST what you truly posted for the first time in your mile-long posts. Frankly, I have a deeper interest in the Truth than you can fathom. For you to deny so much that should be obvious in the Scriptures tells me that you have a very odd definition of what is truth. You remind me of Pilate: "What is truth?"

The Greek of Acts 1:9-12 is as follows:

Acts 1:9-12

9 Kai tauta eipoon blepontoon autoon epeerthee kai nefelee hupelaben auton apo toon ofthalmoon autoon.
10 Kai hoos atenizontes eesan eis ton ouranon poreuomenou autou kai idou andres duo pareisteekeisan autois en estheesesi leukais,
11 hoi kai eipan, "Andres Galilaioi, ti esteekate emblepontes eis ton ouranon? Houtos ho Ieesous ho analeemftheis af' humoon eis ton ouranon houtoos eleusetai hon tropon etheasasthe auton poreuomenon eis ton ouraonon."
12 Tote hupestrepsan eis Ierousaleem apo orous tou kaloumenou Elaioonos, ho estin eggus Ierousaleem sabbatou echon hodon.
The Greek New Testament

Word-for-word, this translates to...

9 Kai = 9 And/also
tauta = these-things
eipoon = when-He-had-spoken
blepontoon = beholding
autoon = they
epeerthee = He-was-lifted-up-above
kai = and/also
nefelee = a-cloud
hupelaben = took-from-below
auton = Him
apo = out-of/away-from
toon = the
ofthalmoon = sight/eyes
autoon. = of-them.
10 Kai = 10 And/also
hoos = while
atenizontes = gazed-intently
eesan = they-were
eis = into
ton = the
ouranon = sky
poreuomenou = as-lifted-up
autou = He
kai = and/also
idou = look!
andres = men
duo = two
pareisteekeisan = stood-beside
autois = them
en = in
estheesesi = clothes/clothing/apparel
leukais, = white,
11 hoi = 11 which
kai = and/also
eipan, = said,
"Andres = "Men
Galilaioi, = of-[the]-Galiyl,
ti = why
esteekate = are-ye-standing
emblepontes = gazing-intently
eis = into
ton = the
ouranon? = sky?
Houtos = This-same
ho = the
Ieesous = Yeshua`/Jesus
ho = the
analeemftheis = one-lifted-up
af' (apo) = away-from
humoon = you-all
eis = into
ton = the
ouranon = sky
houtoos = in-this-way
eleusetai = shall-come
hon = in-the
tropon = manner/style/mode
etheasasthe = ye-have-seen
auton = Him
poreuomenon = travel
eis = into
ton = the
ouraonon." = sky."
12 Tote = 12 Then
hupestrepsan = they-returned
eis = into
Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim/Jerusalem
apo = away-from
orous = a-mountain
tou = of-the
kaloumenou = called
Elaioonos, = Olives,
ho = which/that
estin = is
eggus = from
Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim/Jerusalem
sabbatou = a-Shabbat/a-Sabbath
echon = held
hodon. = a-road.

Stringing this translation together,...

9 And/also these-things when-He-had-spoken beholding they He-was-lifted-up-above and/also a-cloud took-from-below Him out-of/away-from the sight/eyes of-them.
10 And/also while gazed-intently they-were into the sky as-lifted-up He and/also look! men two stood-beside them in clothes/clothing/apparel white,
11 which and/also said, "Men of-[the]-Galiyl, why are-ye-standing gazing-intently into the sky? This-same the Yeshua`/Jesus the one-lifted-up away-from you-all into the sky in-this-way shall-come in-the manner/style/mode ye-have-seen Him travel into the sky."
12 Then they-returned into Yerushalayim/Jerusalem away-from [the]-mountain of-the called Olives, which/that is from Yerushalayim/Jerusalem a-Shabbat/a-Sabbath held a-road.

And, rearranging the words into a more English-like flow gives us this:

9 And when He had spoken these things, they beholding, He was lifted up above, and a cloud took Him from below out of their sight.
10 And while they were gazing intently into the sky as He was lifted up, … look! … two men stood beside them in white clothes,
11 who also said, "Men of the Galiyl, why are you standing (here) gazing intently into the sky? This same Yeshua` - the One (just now) lifted up away from you into the sky - shall in this way come in the mode you have seen Him travel into the sky."
12 Then they returned into Yerushalayim away from the mountain called "of the Olives," (Har haZeitiym) which is held a Shabbat on the road from Yerushalayim.

This thread IS about "Christ will come again." He has both physically left this earth and will physically return to this earth just as He left it, just as it was promised that He would do by these two men, and just as HE promised He would do in John 14:1-4. Your denial of these facts shows how little you believe the very Scriptures you are supposed to read, study, and guard! If you can't see that, then YOU are the one who is blind! No parable is either implied in the text nor is necessary for understanding this passage. That's all on YOU!

The Father may be "non-corporeal" because He is a Spirit, but Yeshua` is NOT! He not only has a body, but it has been resurrected to new life! What's more, a good understanding of "soul," "body," and "spirit" will help you to understand that the person is NOT COMPLETE until the body and spirit are united into a "soul!" The "soul" is NOT SEPARATE FROM the "spirit!" The "soul" is the COMBINATION of the "body" and the "spirit!" That's why there must be a LITERAL RESURRECTION of those who are His!

What does "Holy" mean? The Greek word is "hagios" which stems from the Hebrew word "chag." Both words mean "separated apart." Furthermore, they also might convey the meaning of "awesome." So, yes, God is "awesome and separated apart" from mankind, three times for ultimate emphasis! However, we, too, are separated apart FOR God and His purposes. That's why the Scriptures say, "Be ye holy for I am holy."

You made the statement, "The physical is temporary and dissolves," but this is a fallacy. Under the current conditions of the results of Adam's fall, what we know about the physical is that it is CURRENTLY temporary and dissolves, but Yeshua`s body is yet physical and "corporeal" (which is redundant since "corpus" MEANS "body" in Latin). What you should have learned from Scripture is that God REMAKES the physical so that it no longer dissolves or decays and therefore no longer is temporary! That's what Paul was driving at in 1 Corinthians 15!


1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

That doesn't make it less physical; it makes it MORE physical, just like a diamond is stronger, more resilient, and more valuable than a mere lump of coal!
 

daq

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Retrobyter said:
The Greek of Acts 1:9-12 is as follows:

Acts 1:9-12

9 Kai tauta eipoon blepontoon autoon epeerthee kai nefelee hupelaben auton apo toon ofthalmoon autoon.

Word-for-word, this translates to...

hupelaben = took-from-below

Stringing this translation together,...

9 And/also these-things when-He-had-spoken beholding they He-was-lifted-up-above and/also a-cloud took-from-below Him out-of/away-from the sight/eyes of-them.

And, rearranging the words into a more English-like flow gives us this:

9 And when He had spoken these things, they beholding, He was lifted up above, and a cloud took Him from below out of their sight.
Retrobyter if you are going to start doing your own "translating" then it must comply with the remainder of Scripture. You cannot just take a passage and slant it toward your paradigm and call it good. A single word which you translated, (quoted herein) is a perfect example because you took what was written as the literal rendering and ignored the actual implied meaning. Lambano means to take or receive and hupo of course means below or under but this is not what hupolambano implies in a literal sense. The word in the way it is used implies "taking up a conversation where some else left off" as in "to assume" a position from someone or something which was beneath or before the one doing the assumption. This is perhaps one reason why this event is also called "the Assumption of our Lord" in some circles from ancient times. He was received into a cloud meaning that a cloud "assumed" or possibly even "enveloped" him. The language is rendered as if he "dissipated" from sight like SMOKE into a cloud. The definition of the word reveals this but you apparently have decided to ignore that fact. Nowhere is this word translated as "to take from below" even though that is the literal rendering of the two compound words when read separately in separate contexts. Essentially you have misunderstood what is meant in the definition when it says "to take up" because you appear to think it means physically "picking up something from below", (i.e. the ground) when in actuality what it really means is "to take up" the cause of something or someone, (i.e. to continue a discourse or topic; mentally, to assume). If one were to take up or assume, (hupolambano) your reasoning and continue it to its extremity then the same would necessarily have to conclude that somehow the cloud "snatched up" Yeshua and took him away into heaven. Most translations state that the cloud "received" (assumed) him out of their sight. Likewise please try to keep in mind that this is only one of the words in this short passage that you have butchered. :lol:

Original Strong's Ref. #5274
Romanized hupolambano
Pronounced hoop-ol-am-ban'-o
from GSN5259 and GSN2983; to take from below, i.e. carry upward; figuratively, to take up, i.e. continue a discourse or topic; mentally, to assume (presume):
KJV--answer, receive, suppose.


Even the Living Bible puts it this way:

Acts 1:9 Living Bible
9. It was not long afterwards that he rose into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, leaving them staring after him.

In addition I have the testimony of many Scripture passages which you have repeatedly ignored:

Acts 9:3-8 KJV
3. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4. And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5. And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.


The Spirit of the Word tells me this:

2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Your spirit says to ignore the passage and pretend it does not exist.

The Spirit of the Word tells me that Yeshua now appears IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD for us:

Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Your spirit says ignore this also and explain away the fact that a man can only give his flesh, blood, and soul once for his friends.

The Spirit of the Word tells me that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Your spirit says Yeshua is still physical yet in the presence of God who is non-corporeal Spirit and the all consuming Fire.

The Spirit of the Word tells me that anyone who denies Yeshua has come in the flesh is a false prophet or antichrist:

1 John 4:1-6 KJV
1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come;
and even now already is it in the world.
4. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


The Spirit of the Word tells me to test, prove, or try the spirits because there is the Spirit of Truth and there is the spirit of error. The only way to test the spirits is by the doctrine and your spirit says that Yeshua is coming in a physical body. In cold hard facts this essentially denies that he already gave his body on the Cross and poured out his soul unto death as prophesied in Isaiah that we might be partakers in his holy and pure offering in our behalf. The Spirit of the Word tells me greater is he that it in you than he that is in the world. And what is in the world but the spirit of the world? And what therefore does the Scripture say is in me but the Spirit of the Lord? It is a juxtaposing of the Spirit of Truth against the spirit of the world. However, your spirit says that Yeshua is outside of you and instead he remains in some off-planet "sky kingdom" or somewhere off in the sky-heaven about to return with yet a physical form that all mankind will be able to see with their physical eyes of the flesh; returning from the sky-heavens with his physical city and physical kingdom which has still not yet come after two thousand years of waiting. And with this I hope you do not mind but I do not intend to sift through any more of your enormous interpretive sidewinding pontifications or posts. :)
 

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dragonfly said:
Hi Enoch,

Jesus called it 'flesh' and for sure Thomas did what John described, but the context is John 20:26b

'...then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.


Likewise, we have a similar event in reverse, in

Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; ...'


Of course you know all this, so is this the 'flesh' you're expecting to see?



Hi Retrobyter,

There are other examples in scripture apart from Solomon, although when we ask for the Lord's will to be done in our lives, as for you, He has done it.

When I asked 'is it biblical', I partly meant you to scroll through your memory for other examples of people who have a different gift (than what you asked).


You don't see, but I'll try to explain it very briefly; Jesus Christ is the great interpreter. Look at how often He had to interpret a parable to the disciples.

Look at Daniel, being able to interpret Nebuchadnezzar's dream? He didn't have the written word, but God's Spirit was upon him.

Look at the interpretation given to the Midianite in the tent, while Gideon was listening from outside.

Look at the Pharisees, knowing that Jesus was speaking about them, and desiring to kill Him rather than be corrected.


Under the New Covenant, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Giver also enters the believer and makes His abode in him. From Him comes the understanding which enables teaching; from Him comes the (gift of) interpretation for the one who has been given a prophecy in tongues; from Him comes the call to repentance, which burdens those called to evangelism; from Him comes the word to be preached, by which those who receive it mixed with the faith that it creates, can enter into new areas of the salvation being held out to them in very practical ways, in Christ.

Once you 'get' that this is how the Holy Spirit works in and through believers, then when Paul asks the Galatians (chapter 3) the question:

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

his phrase 'the hearing of faith' is extremely significant. He is reminding them that (although we know there were miracles recorded in the Old Testament) the person working miracles can do it only if they have heard something from the Lord, by the Holy Spirit. Paul could have asked any question which touched on the ministries he lists in the first part of Ephesians 4, and the answer would have been the same: 'by the hearing of faith'.


I am sure you have a life outside of posting on CyB. So does everyone else. It is very difficult to testify in writing, out of context, without sounding as if one is bragging; but being led by the Spirit as a lifestyle necessitates 'the hearing of faith' continuously, long after one's first response to the gospel.
God gave us several Bible examples about the similarities between an angelic body vs. a flesh body.

Genesis 18 & 19 include some of the best examples.

In Gen.18, 3 men appear before Abraham at his tent door. One of the three Abraham calls "My Lord", pointing to our Lord Jesus in Old Testament times. Abraham then prepares bread, milk, butter, and the calf, and sets the food before them. He even presents a water for them to wash their feet with.

Later in Gen.18, Christ stays behind talking to Abraham while the other two men go to Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham pleads with The Lord about His getting ready to destroy all of Sodom and Gomorrah. Then in Gen.19 two angels with the appearance of young men appear to Lot and his family to bring them out of Sodom and Gomorrah. Even the sodomites outside in the streets tells Lot to bring the two young men out so they can 'know' them sexually in the Biblical sense.

Lot does the same hospitality for the two angels that Abraham did, even making them a feast, and they did eat as written.

Didn't the Israelites even eat 'manna' from Heaven while in the wilderness?

So we can eat the Heavenly manna of the angels, and the angels are able to eat our food, and walk and live upon this earth, so what is the difference?

The flesh body gets sick, dies, feels hot and cold, is subject to the elements of this world, has a boundary set between this material dimension and the Heavenly dimension so that it cannot pass between the two. The angelic body has no such limitations.

And make no mistake, the angelic type body is the kind of body Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Cor.15 as the "spiritual body". Paul said there as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall ALSO bear the image of the heavenly. The image of the heavenly is an... angelic body.

Our Lord Jesus showed us the same as Paul did...

Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(KJV)
 
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daq

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Psalms 78:19-25 KJV
23. Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24. And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25. Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full


Deuteronomy 8:1-4 KJV
1. All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.
2. And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3. And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know;
that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.
4. Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.

Manna is every word the proceeds out of the mouth of the Father.

John 6:31-36 KJV
31. Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.


John 6:48-51 KJV
48. I am that bread of life.
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:
and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Therefore the one partaking in the true Passover does not perceive Messiah according to the flesh, (2 Corinthians 5:16). :)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Retrobyter if you are going to start doing your own "translating" then it must comply with the remainder of Scripture. You cannot just take a passage and slant it toward your paradigm and call it good. A single word which you translated, (quoted herein) is a perfect example because you took what was written as the literal rendering and ignored the actual implied meaning. Lambano means to take or receive and hupo of course means below or under but this is not what hupolambano implies in a literal sense. The word in the way it is used implies "taking up a conversation where some else left off" as in "to assume" a position from someone or something which was beneath or before the one doing the assumption. This is perhaps one reason why this event is also called "the Assumption of our Lord" in some circles from ancient times. He was received into a cloud meaning that a cloud "assumed" or possibly even "enveloped" him. The language is rendered as if he "dissipated" from sight like SMOKE into a cloud. The definition of the word reveals this but you apparently have decided to ignore that fact. Nowhere is this word translated as "to take from below" even though that is the literal rendering of the two compound words when read separately in separate contexts. Essentially you have misunderstood what is meant in the definition when it says "to take up" because you appear to think it means physically "picking up something from below", (i.e. the ground) when in actuality what it really means is "to take up" the cause of something or someone, (i.e. to continue a discourse or topic; mentally, to assume). If one were to take up or assume, (hupolambano) your reasoning and continue it to its extremity then the same would necessarily have to conclude that somehow the cloud "snatched up" Yeshua and took him away into heaven. Most translations state that the cloud "received" (assumed) him out of their sight. Likewise please try to keep in mind that this is only one of the words in this short passage that you have butchered. :lol:

Original Strong's Ref. #5274
Romanized hupolambano
Pronounced hoop-ol-am-ban'-o
from GSN5259 and GSN2983; to take from below, i.e. carry upward; figuratively, to take up, i.e. continue a discourse or topic; mentally, to assume (presume):
KJV--answer, receive, suppose.


Even the Living Bible puts it this way:

Acts 1:9 Living Bible
9. It was not long afterwards that he rose into the sky and disappeared into a cloud, leaving them staring after him.

In addition I have the testimony of many Scripture passages which you have repeatedly ignored:

Acts 9:3-8 KJV
3. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4. And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5. And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.


The Spirit of the Word tells me this:

2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Your spirit says to ignore the passage and pretend it does not exist.

The Spirit of the Word tells me that Yeshua now appears IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD for us:

Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Your spirit says ignore this also and explain away the fact that a man can only give his flesh, blood, and soul once for his friends.

The Spirit of the Word tells me that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Your spirit says Yeshua is still physical yet in the presence of God who is non-corporeal Spirit and the all consuming Fire.

The Spirit of the Word tells me that anyone who denies Yeshua has come in the flesh is a false prophet or antichrist:

1 John 4:1-6 KJV
1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come;
and even now already is it in the world.
4. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


The Spirit of the Word tells me to test, prove, or try the spirits because there is the Spirit of Truth and there is the spirit of error. The only way to test the spirits is by the doctrine and your spirit says that Yeshua is coming in a physical body. In cold hard facts this essentially denies that he already gave his body on the Cross and poured out his soul unto death as prophesied in Isaiah that we might be partakers in his holy and pure offering in our behalf. The Spirit of the Word tells me greater is he that it in you than he that is in the world. And what is in the world but the spirit of the world? And what therefore does the Scripture say is in me but the Spirit of the Lord? It is a juxtaposing of the Spirit of Truth against the spirit of the world. However, your spirit says that Yeshua is outside of you and instead he remains in some off-planet "sky kingdom" or somewhere off in the sky-heaven about to return with yet a physical form that all mankind will be able to see with their physical eyes of the flesh; returning from the sky-heavens with his physical city and physical kingdom which has still not yet come after two thousand years of waiting. And with this I hope you do not mind but I do not intend to sift through any more of your enormous interpretive sidewinding pontifications or posts. :)
You mean that I need to make my translations comply with YOUR interpretation of other portions of Scripture. Let's be honest. I don't have a single problem with how I translate Scripture since it matches what I already know about the Scriptures. What YOU are balking about is how I've left YOUR opinions and YOUR paradigm out of my translations!

"Disappeared" does NOT mean "dissipated!" How weird is that?! Even when a great magician, such as David Copperfield, made the Statue of Liberty disappear, he certainly did NOT cause it to dissipate on the wind! Being taken "out of sight" doesn't mean that Yeshua`s body was "dematerialized!" And you say that Enoch2010 and I live in a "fantasy world!" Sheesh! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Now, as far as the simple word "hupelaben," a form of "hupolambanoo," is concerned, I took what was written as the actual, literal rendering and ignored the inappropriate, implied meaning, which you chose to embrace!


NT:5274 hupolambanoo (hoop-ol-am-ban'-o); from NT:5259 and NT:2983; to take from below, i.e. carry upward; figuratively, to take up, i.e. continue a discourse or topic; mentally, to assume (presume):
KJV - answer, receive, suppose.


NT:5259 hupoo (hoop-o'); a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below] or time (when [at]):
KJV - among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In comp. it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specifically, covertly or moderately.

NT:2983 lambanoo (lam-ban'-o); a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively [properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas NT:1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while NT:138 is more violent, to seize or remove]):
KJV - accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, what is it that you have added to this that requires a "dissipation" of Yeshua`s body into "smoke?"

Okay, let's go through the rest of it:


Acts 9:3-9
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven (the sky):
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
KJV

Of course, one shouldn't read this passage without consulting the other accounts Paul gives of this event:

Acts 22:6-11
6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven (the sky) a great light round about me.
7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
KJV



Acts 26:12-18
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven (the sky), above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
KJV

It's hard to see a person in a light that is brighter than the sun! HE could see the "Man in the light"; the others could not see Him because He was not talking to them! They were hiding their eyes! Paul's eyes were temporarily damaged by the bright light, and that's why HE could "see no man" afterward. It's not that Paul didn't see Him per se; He TRIED to see Him through the literally blinding light! Furthermore, Yeshua` said He would appear to Paul in 26:16 (oftheesomai).


1 Corinthians 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

In 1 Corinthians 15:50, the phrase "flesh and blood" IS an idiom for the "natural body" or the "soul-ish body" (sooma psuchikon, see verse 44), because the couplet equates this phrase with "corruption"; however, Yeshua` specifically said that he had "flesh and bones" in Luke 24:39 and His body was already a "spiritual" or "spirit-ish body" (sooma pneumatikon), equating it with "incorruption," having already been resurrected at this point!

Regarding 2 Corinthians 5:16:


2 Corinthians 5:14-19
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
KJV


Your spirit tells you that Yeshua now appears IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD for us and no longer has His flesh.

The Spirit of God tells me that Paul is just talking about how one normally knows another human being but Yeshua` is NO LONGER HERE in the flesh! He took His body WITH HIM!

And, 1 John 4:1-6 isn't even applicable! You're reasoning backwards if you're thinking that 1 John 4:1-6 applies to this subject! It's not about whether He CAME in the flesh; it's whether He still HAS His flesh after His death and RESURRECTION!

Finally, Hebrews 9:24-28 is about His DEATH! His SACRIFICE! He died ONCE and that is the only time He will ever die! He now has a resurrected body that cannot die again because now it is IMMORTAL and INCORRUPTIBLE!
 

daq

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Retrobyter said:
Your spirit tells you that Yeshua now appears IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD for us and no longer has His flesh.

The Spirit of God tells me that Paul is just talking about how one normally knows another human being but Yeshua` is NO LONGER HERE in the flesh! He took His body WITH HIM!

And, 1 John 4:1-6 isn't even applicable! You're reasoning backwards if you're thinking that 1 John 4:1-6 applies to this subject! It's not about whether He CAME in the flesh; it's whether He still HAS His flesh after His death and RESURRECTION!

Finally, Hebrews 9:24-28 is about His DEATH! His SACRIFICE! He died ONCE and that is the only time He will ever die! He now has a resurrected body that cannot die again because now it is IMMORTAL and INCORRUPTIBLE!
Both yourself and Enoch2010 have been quoted and shown the passages time and time again yet the two of you and likewise most of those of your same flesh mindset simply refuse to believe what Yeshua says of himself and what he offers. Continuing again from the John 6 "manna" quote above in my previous reply and likewise the comments of dragonfly concerning the meaning of the supernal kind of "flesh" that Yeshua said he would offer as spiritual food:

John 6:52-64 KJV
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62.
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


Did they see Yeshua ascend up to where he was before? The cloud which received him represents the Father who in himself has the great cloud of many witnesses and, according to Leviticus and the Yom Kippur atonements, the Father appears in the cloud over the Mercy Seat between the Cherubim. This is the meaning of the cloud which received-assumed-enveloped Yeshua when he went back up to where he was before. Thus the Son returned INTO THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER from whence he came, (John 1:18). In the passage above Yeshua clearly states that "THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING!" What "flesh" therefore is it that he offers to every disciple as "food"? IT IS NOT THE PHYSICAL FLESH WHICH WAS CRUCIFIED BECAUSE THAT KIND OF FLESH PROFITS NOTHING! The "flesh" that he gives is the supernal and spiritual body that he once had and was raised from the dead with. That supernatural body, (or angelic body if you will) is the living manna which he gives. To see these things according to the literal flesh, like the skin which presently covers your own body, is to essentially teach literal cannibalism. Yeshua gave up his supernatural-angelic body so that we might partake in him and become sons and joint-heirs with him. Thus the true disciples of Yeshua are his body because he poured out his soul unto death and willingly gave himself so as to be apportioned among the brethren, (Isaiah 53:12). :)

As for the sweet savor of the SMOKE rising from the flame upon the altar of burnt offering sacrifice there is not only the evidence of the very same date found in Genesis 8:14-21, (27 Iyyar, which is the date of the Ascension-Assumption of Yeshua, ten days before Shavuot-Pentecost) but likewise there is plenty more evidence throughout the Scripture pointing to this event:

Judges 6:19-21
19. And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of flour: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it.
20.
And the Malak of Elohim said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this Rock, [cela`] and pour out the broth. And he did so.
21. Then the Malak of YHWH put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes;
and there rose up fire out of the Rock, [tsuwr] and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the Malak of YHWH departed out of his sight.

Judges 13:17-20
17. And Manoah said unto the Malak of YHWH, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18. And the Malak of YHWH said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing Peliy' it is? [see Pala'-Palmoniy, wonderful numberer of secrets, Daniel 8:13]
19. So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon the Rock [tsuwr] unto YHWH: and the Malak did pala'-wonder-working; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20. For it came to pass, when the flash-flame went up toward heaven from off the altar,
that the Malak of YHWH ascended in the flash-flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Retrobyter,

I would like it if you would do a quick word search in the KJV for the word 'dissolved', and compare the original language words. Are they all the same in the Hebrew, or do they have other possible translations?

It seems to me if they don't, that the Septuagint might tie them together with the NT uses of 'dissolved', and if that is the case, is this dissolution of the physical something which goes hand in hand with resurrection into the metaphysical?

I have no idea how you can state so categorically that something like 'dematerialis'ation did not happen when Jesus Ascended. I know he could eat fish and honeycomb, but that doesn't necessarily prove His physical body as it appeared, was not very different from His physical body before He died. He didn't appear inside locked rooms, or 'vanish', before His death.

There could be a huge difference between the body He had after resurrection, and (for instance) the bodies of those (like Lazarus) who were raised from death without receiving a 'resurrection body', who continued to eat, drink and live normally until a second natural death. Isn't this one of the factors to be considered in 'It is appointed unto men once to die'? Clearly, there are enough people who have been raised from the dead in our lifetime, to show that God's definition of 'once to die' might be slightly different from ours. This might be a point worth exploring, perhaps?

We are absolutely certain that Jesus will never die again; that the reasons for His death and His victory in death which paved the way for the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit - which was outpoured - prove that His death was an event in eternity unlike any other. In this, He shows us what to expect from physical death, and our final resurrection. Acts 13:33.



Hi daq,

This (underlined in bold) is an interesting statement :) .

Yeshua gave up his supernatural-angelic body so that we might partake in him and become sons and joint-heirs with him. Thus the true disciples of Yeshua are his body because he poured out his soul unto death and willingly gave himself so as to be apportioned among the brethren, (Isaiah 53:12).

It immediately brings Hebrews 2:10, 11 to mind, as well as 'ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost'. 1 Corinthians 6:19.

2 Corinthians 6:16 '... for ye are the temple of the living God...'

I now see much more clearly where the baptism of fire fits in to everything else you've brought to attention. Thanks. :)
 
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daq

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dragonfly said:
Hi daq,

This (underlined in bold) is an interesting statement :) .

Yeshua gave up his supernatural-angelic body so that we might partake in him and become sons and joint-heirs with him. Thus the true disciples of Yeshua are his body because he poured out his soul unto death and willingly gave himself so as to be apportioned among the brethren, (Isaiah 53:12).
It immediately brings Hebrews 2:10, 11 to mind, as well as 'ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost'. 1 Corinthians 6:19.

2 Corinthians 6:16 '... for ye are the temple of the living God...'

I now see much more clearly where the baptism of fire fits in to everything else you've brought to attention. Thanks. :)
Isaiah 53:12 ASV
12. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53:12 YLT
12. Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

Isaiah 53:12a-b TUA
12. Laken, 'achaleq- low barabiym w'et- `tsuwmiym ychaleq shalal . . .

Therefore, I will apportion-divide to-for him among the many; and with the mighty he shall apportion-divide the spoil . . .

See also "Maher-Shalal-Chash-Baz" ~ Isaiah 8:1-4


Regarding Post #104 and "lighting the Fire" ~

Thayer's Lexicon clearly counts both "hapto" and "haptomai" as being the same word simply employed in its various different forms. This is revealed by the fact that John 20:17 is included with all the other usages. However, as may be readily seen, the author knowing the problem which arises with the translation of John 20:17 offers up his own interpretation within the definition which is feeble at best. This creates a difficult situation for modern scholarship, (and especially those of a staunch dispensationalist mindset) so much so that it appears it was better for them to divide the word into two different words altogether. Since Strong with his numbering system already did this, giving "hapto" and "haptomai" each their own numbers in his numbering system, it seems it must not have been a difficult decision to come to for those who were want to do so to begin with. And now that there are supposedly two separate words which one do you suppose they claim is found in John 20:17? All of the Concordances state that the word found in John 20:17 is GSN#680 "haptomai" but it sure looks like GSN#681 "hapto" from where I sit. :)

John 20:17 Stephanus Textus Receptus
17 λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Μή μου ἅπτου οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν πατέρα· μου πορεύου δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἀδελφούς μου καὶ εἰπὲ αὐτοῖς Ἀναβαίνω πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν καὶ θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν
http://biblehub.com/tr/john/20.htm

John 20:17 Westcott / Hort
17 λέγει αὐτῇ Ἰησοῦς· μή μου ἅπτου, οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν πατέρα· πορεύου δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἀδελφούς μου καὶ εἶπε αὐτοῖς ἀναβαίνω πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν καὶ θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν.
http://biblehub.com/whdc/john/20.htm

John 20:17 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
17. Legei aute Iesous, @"Me mou haptou, oupo garanabebeka pros ton Patera.{*} Poreuou de pros tousadelfous mou kai eipe autois: "Anabaino pros ton Pateramou kai Patera humon, kai Theon mou kai Theon humon"."^


Original Strong's Ref. #680
Romanized haptomai [ἅπτομαι]
Pronounced hap'-tom-ahee
reflexive of GSN0681; properly, to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):
KJV--touch.


Original Strong's Ref. #681
Romanized hapto
[ἅπτω]
Pronounced hap'-to
a primary verb; properly, to fasten to, i.e. (specially) to set on fire:
KJV--kindle, light.




thayers-haptomai.gif


Yeshua says to Maria when he appears to her first in Gathshemeni; Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, says to him; Sir, if thou have borne him from here, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Yeshua says to her, "Mariam!" (and changes her name to a new name) And being converted, that one says to him now in Hebraisti, "Rabbouni!" which is to say, "Master-Teacher!" And Yeshua says to her, "Me mou haptou" - "Not do I adhere" - "Not do I light the fire" - for not yet am I ascended to my Father."

Acts 2:1-3
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them
parting-asunder-dividing-apportioning tongues, like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

:)
 
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dragonfly

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Hi daq,

Is not the 'like as of fire', a baptism of grace into grace 'for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father '? Ephesians 2:18

And is this not also the grace spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 3:7
'... I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.' Ephesians 1:18 - 20

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith
into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also...'?

This grace enables us to 22 '... be baptized with the baptism that [Jesus is] baptized with ...' Matthew 20

And to face 'the day' -

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


"Maher-Shalal-Chash-Baz" -


Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:


Thanks be to God. :)
 
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daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
dragonfly said:
Hi daq,

Is not the 'like as of fire', a baptism of grace into grace 'for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father '? Ephesians 2:18

And is this not also the grace spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 3:7
'... I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.' Ephesians 1:18 - 20

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith
into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also...'?

This grace enables us to 22 '... be baptized with the baptism that [Jesus is] baptized with ...' Matthew 20

And to face 'the day' -

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


2 Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? 17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


"Maher-Shalal-Chash-Baz" -


Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:


Thanks be to God. :)
Yes, Yes, and Amen; "Speedy to the spoil, quickly to the plunder!" And if Yeshua, as the High Priest, cast out devils by the very Finger of God; then no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon us! Even so, come, Master Yeshua and light the Fire! :)

Luke 12:49-53
49. I am come to send fire on the earth; and would that it were already kindled! [ana+hapto - "each one kindled"]
50. But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and O how I am compressed until it be completed!
51. Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
[GSN#1267 diamerismos]
52. For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, [GSN#1266 diamerizo ~ Acts 2:3 cloven-dividing-parting-asunder] three against two, and two against three.
53. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


Original Strong's Ref. #1267
Romanized diamerismos
Pronounced dee-am-er-is-mos'
from GSN1266; disunion (of opinion and conduct):
KJV--division.


Original Strong's Ref. #1266 [Acts 2:3 - Shavuot-Pentecost]
Romanized diamerizo
Pronounced dee-am-er-id'-zo
from GSN1223 and GSN3307; to partition thoroughly (literally in distribution, figuratively in dissension):
KJV--cloven, divide, part.
 
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