Christ will come again

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dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
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O Thou Who camest from above,
The pure celestial fire to impart,
Kindle a flame of sacred love
Upon the mean altar of my heart.


There let it for Thy glory burn
With inextinguishable blaze,
And trembling to its source return,
In humble prayer and fervent praise.


Jesus, confirm my heart’s desire
To work and speak and think for Thee;
Still let me guard the holy fire,
And still stir up Thy gift in me.


Ready for all Thy perfect will,
My acts of faith and love repeat,
Till death Thy endless mercies seal,
And make my sacrifice complete.




Words: Charles Wesley
Tune : Wilton
 
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daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Water Immersion of Yeshua ~

Matthew 3:16-17
16. And being immersed Yeshua straightway ascended from the water: and behold, were opened of him the heavens, and he saw the Pneuma tou Theou descending as a dove and coming upon him:
17. And, behold, a voice from the heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"


spirit-holy.jpg

Scripture Interpretation? Post #74

The Son of man was "IN HEAVEN" even BEFORE going to the Cross of Golgotha:

John 3:12-13
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Immersion of Yeshua in the Cloud of the Father ~


Luke 9:29-35
29. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake,
there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.


This photeinos-radiant Cloud of the Father was full of Light:

Matthew 17:5
5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright [GSN#5460 photeinos] cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


Original Strong's Ref. #5460
Romanized photeinos
Pronounced fo-ti-nos'
from GSN5457; lustrous, i.e. transparent or well-illuminated (figuratively):
KJV--bright, full of light.

The Father was in the radiant Cloud of Light.
They entered into the Cloud which enveloped them.
The Voice of the Father came from within the Cloud of Light.
The clouds are the dust of the feet of the Father according to Nahum:

Nahum 1:2-3 Restored Name KJV -
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/nahum1.htm
1:2 El is jealous, and YHWH revengeth; YHWH revengeth, and is furious; YHWH will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
1:3 YHWH is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: YHWH hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and
the clouds are the dust of his feet.

The Rock represents Messiah and the Cloud represents the Father:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2.
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Entering into the Cloud of the Father is an immersion-baptism; yet the Cloud of the Transfiguration event from Luke 9:29-35 quoted above occurs before Yeshua makes the statement in Luke 12:50 which was already quoted on the previous page concerning yet another immersion which was yet to come:

Luke 12:49-50
49. I am come to send fire on the earth; and would that it were already every-one kindled!
50.
But I have an immersion to be immersed with; and, O how am I compressed until it be completed!

Immersion of Death into Life ~


Romans 6:1-6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Yeshua Christou were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man-anthropon is crucified together with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


And when the body of sin is destroyed there is a final immersion-baptism into the great cloud of witnesses which reside in the holy Mount Zion, the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; an innumerable company of messenger-angels, the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn, those having been written in heaven, the spirits of just men made whole: exhorting us onward, to press forward, to continue the upward call, fighting the good fight of faith; and to finish running the race into the good End which we run as if to win:

Hebrews 12:1-8
1.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


The Ascension-Assumption of Yeshua into the Cloud of the Father:

Acts 1:9
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


We too and the two of you every man his counterpart, ("`aluw ha`am 'iysh negdow" ~ Joshua 6:5).
^_^

Revelation 11:11-12
11. And amidst the three days and hemisu the Spirit of Life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon the watchers of them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
"Anabatehode!" And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and the enemies of them were watchers of them.





And a son is born into the Kingdom; neither male nor female . . . :)

dragonfly said:
O Thou Who camest from above,
The pure celestial fire to impart,
Kindle a flame of sacred love
Upon the mean altar of my heart.


There let it for Thy glory burn
With inextinguishable blaze,
And trembling to its source return,
In humble prayer and fervent praise.


Jesus, confirm my heart’s desire
To work and speak and think for Thee;
Still let me guard the holy fire,
And still stir up Thy gift in me.


Ready for all Thy perfect will,
My acts of faith and love repeat,
Till death Thy endless mercies seal,
And make my sacrifice complete.




Words: Charles Wesley
Tune : Wilton
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
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Tampa Bay, Florida
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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Water Immersion of Yeshua ~

Matthew 3:16-17
16. And being immersed Yeshua straightway ascended from the water: and behold, were opened of him the heavens, and he saw the Pneuma tou Theou descending as a dove and coming upon him:
17. And, behold, a voice from the heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"


spirit-holy.jpg

Scripture Interpretation? Post #74

The Son of man was "IN HEAVEN" even BEFORE going to the Cross of Golgotha:

John 3:12-13
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Immersion of Yeshua in the Cloud of the Father ~


Luke 9:29-35
29. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake,
there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.


This photeinos-radiant Cloud of the Father was full of Light:

Matthew 17:5
5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright [GSN#5460 photeinos] cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


Original Strong's Ref. #5460
Romanized photeinos
Pronounced fo-ti-nos'
from GSN5457; lustrous, i.e. transparent or well-illuminated (figuratively):
KJV--bright, full of light.

The Father was in the radiant Cloud of Light.
They entered into the Cloud which enveloped them.
The Voice of the Father came from within the Cloud of Light.
The clouds are the dust of the feet of the Father according to Nahum:

Nahum 1:2-3 Restored Name KJV -
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/nahum1.htm
1:2 El is jealous, and YHWH revengeth; YHWH revengeth, and is furious; YHWH will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
1:3 YHWH is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: YHWH hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and
the clouds are the dust of his feet.

The Rock represents Messiah and the Cloud represents the Father:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2.
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Entering into the Cloud of the Father is an immersion-baptism; yet the Cloud of the Transfiguration event from Luke 9:29-35 quoted above occurs before Yeshua makes the statement in Luke 12:50 which was already quoted on the previous page concerning yet another immersion which was yet to come:

Luke 12:49-50
49. I am come to send fire on the earth; and would that it were already every-one kindled!
50.
But I have an immersion to be immersed with; and, O how am I compressed until it be completed!

Immersion of Death into Life ~


Romans 6:1-6
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Yeshua Christou were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Messiah was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man-anthropon is crucified together with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


And when the body of sin is destroyed there is a final immersion-baptism into the great cloud of witnesses which reside in the holy Mount Zion, the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem; an innumerable company of messenger-angels, the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn, those having been written in heaven, the spirits of just men made whole: exhorting us onward, to press forward, to continue the upward call, fighting the good fight of faith; and to finish running the race into the good End which we run as if to win:

Hebrews 12:1-8
1.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


The Ascension-Assumption of Yeshua into the Cloud of the Father:

Acts 1:9
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


We too and the two of you every man his counterpart, ("`aluw ha`am 'iysh negdow" ~ Joshua 6:5).
^_^

Revelation 11:11-12
11. And amidst the three days and hemisu the Spirit of Life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon the watchers of them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
"Anabatehode!" And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and the enemies of them were watchers of them.





And a son is born into the Kingdom; neither male nor female . . . :)
You mix much too much together from unrelated contexts and claim that they go together! PLEASE, don't cook for me! I don't want a pickles and ice cream hot-fudge steak with teriyaki sauce and sauerkraut on top!!

You are LEADING PEOPLE ASTRAY! When Yeshua` returns IN HIS RESURRECTED, PHYSICAL BODY to establish His Kingdom on this earth AS PROMISED IN ALL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH, you're going to have a LOT of back-peddling to do! I hope you like to eat crow!

There's too much to correct and I don't have the desire to attempt the monumental task that would have to be performed; so, it may LOOK like you've won, but the Ruach haQodesh is going to have to correct you. I cannot, and you wouldn't listen to me anyway. I turn you over to the Spirit for His correction, and if He feels you won't listen to Him either, then He may turn you over to haSatan for whatever needs to be done.

I wash my hands of you.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.


You mix much too much together from unrelated contexts and claim that they go together! PLEASE, don't cook for me! I don't want a pickles and ice cream hot-fudge steak with teriyaki sauce and sauerkraut on top!!

You are LEADING PEOPLE ASTRAY! When Yeshua` returns IN HIS RESURRECTED, PHYSICAL BODY to establish His Kingdom on this earth AS PROMISED IN ALL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH, you're going to have a LOT of back-peddling to do! I hope you like to eat crow!

There's too much to correct and I don't have the desire to attempt the monumental task that would have to be performed; so, it may LOOK like you've won, but the Ruach haQodesh is going to have to correct you. I cannot, and you wouldn't listen to me anyway. I turn you over to the Spirit for His correction, and if He feels you won't listen to Him either, then He may turn you over to haSatan for whatever needs to be done.

I wash my hands of you.
You are neither God, nor Pilate, nor Paul whom you take out of context to use against me. And if you have never traveled the path that I walk then how can you rightfully say that you know it is the wrong path? Yet I have already walked your path, (30 years) and I know from my own experience that your path leads into a ditch. In fact you are already in the ditch as we speak but too blind to see it for what it truly is. And here now we have a blind man in a ditch compelling others to join him so that he may feel justified in his corrupted state through the comfort found in a herd mentality of like-minded numbers. Even worse the blind man compels me to re-enter the ditch from whence the Master has already once delivered me. Every man must be willing to allow his own soul to be apollumi-destroyed if he will indeed be a disciple of Yeshua. If you are willing to take up your cross, if you love the Most High and his Word, and if you are truly willing to have your heart circumcised; then enter into Torah and know that it will put the old you to death. Then shall the Lord circumcise your heart, your mind, your eyes, and your ears, so as to HEAR, O ISRAEL. Every child is under tutors and governors until that Great Day of the time appointed of the Father wherein the child becomes a son, (like a Bar-Mitzvah). Torah has become our paidagogos-crossing-guard to safely bring us into Messiah. If you will not put yourself under Torah then you cannot be raised back to life coming up on the other side into Messiah and the immersion of his Doctrine. For this reason you cannot see, and the vail over your heart and mind remains, for you refuse to die to yourself and the beloved daughters of your doctrines.

Matthew 14:27-35 KJV
27. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29. Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30. Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32. Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

34. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35. It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matthew 10:38-39
38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39. He that findeth his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and he that apollumi-destroyeth his soul for my sake shall find it.


Are you truly willing to die for Yeshua? Immerse yourself into the Name of the Father, (all Torah is his Name) as Yeshua did.
The same Spirit that raised up Messiah will likewise raise you up in the Great Day and no more shall you be "under" the law. :)

Retrobyter said:
When Yeshua` returns IN HIS RESURRECTED, PHYSICAL BODY to establish His Kingdom on this earth AS PROMISED IN ALL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH, you're going to have a LOT of back-peddling to do! I hope you like to eat crow!

I turn you over to the Spirit for His correction, and if He feels you won't listen to Him either, then He may turn you over to haSatan for whatever needs to be done.

I wash my hands of you.
Exodus 12:5-11
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall slay it between the evenings.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with his inner parts.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Passover of YHWH.


1 Corinthians 5:4-8
1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[deeds of the FLESH and the flesh-minded]
4. In the name of our Master, Yeshua, when ye are gathered together, and mine own spirit with the power of our Master, Yeshua,
5.
To deliver such an one to the-Satana into the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be delivered in the day of the Lord.
6.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened; and because the Passover of us, Messiah, was slain:

8. Therefore let us keep the Feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Unless you believe Messiah Yeshua is our Passover, (and consume all of him as commanded) you too will die in your sins. :)
 
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dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hi Retroybyter,

I think you're forgetting that words are about communicating ideas. They (the words) themselves are merely vehicles.

You only need to look around at all the different things which can be put in a car, to realise that likewise, a word can perform a multitude of communication tasks, sometimes all at once, without having its identity compromised.

A brother I know says of Hebrew that words, that they have histories rather than meanings, (as in dictionary definitions).

Every time you bring the focus back to Jerusalem below, whose children are in bondage with her, you align yourself with the world's values. Until you see that being buried with Christ is a welcome release from the mindset of this world, (and the only route to being met by Him on the other side of His (your) tomb), you cannot see the realm where He now dwells and the renewing of your mind will feel like a threat to your natural (worldly) identity.

Beware of having a religious identity which has its roots in the natural man. It has the potential easily to deceive you.

The natural man has to be completely recreated in God's image, just as the inner man has to be completely renewed in God's image.

This is why Paul exhorts us to put off the old man and put on the new man. There is no place for both of them at the same time.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
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66
Tampa Bay, Florida
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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
You are neither God, nor Pilate, nor Paul whom you take out of context to use against me. And if you have never traveled the path that I walk then how can you rightfully say that you know it is the wrong path? Yet I have already walked your path, (30 years) and I know from my own experience that your path leads into a ditch. In fact you are already in the ditch as we speak but too blind to see it for what it truly is. And here now we have a blind man in a ditch compelling others to join him so that he may feel justified in his corrupted state through the comfort found in a herd mentality of like-minded numbers. Even worse the blind man compels me to re-enter the ditch from whence the Master has already once delivered me. Every man must be willing to allow his own soul to be apollumi-destroyed if he will indeed be a disciple of Yeshua. If you are willing to take up your cross, if you love the Most High and his Word, and if you are truly willing to have your heart circumcised; then enter into Torah and know that it will put the old you to death. Then shall the Lord circumcise your heart, your mind, your eyes, and your ears, so as to HEAR, O ISRAEL. Every child is under tutors and governors until that Great Day of the time appointed of the Father wherein the child becomes a son, (like a Bar-Mitzvah). Torah has become our paidagogos-crossing-guard to safely bring us into Messiah. If you will not put yourself under Torah then you cannot be raised back to life coming up on the other side into Messiah and the immersion of his Doctrine. For this reason you cannot see, and the vail over your heart and mind remains, for you refuse to die to yourself and the beloved daughters of your doctrines.

Matthew 14:27-35 KJV
27. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29. Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30. Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32. Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

34. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35. It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matthew 10:38-39
38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39. He that findeth his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and he that apollumi-destroyeth his soul for my sake shall find it.


Are you truly willing to die for Yeshua? Immerse yourself into the Name of the Father, (all Torah is his Name) as Yeshua did.
The same Spirit that raised up Messiah will likewise raise you up in the Great Day and no more shall you be "under" the law. :)


Exodus 12:5-11
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall slay it between the evenings.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with his inner parts.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Passover of YHWH.


1 Corinthians 5:4-8
1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[deeds of the FLESH and the flesh-minded]
4. In the name of our Master, Yeshua, when ye are gathered together, and mine own spirit with the power of our Master, Yeshua,
5.
To deliver such an one to the-Satana into the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be delivered in the day of the Lord.
6.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened; and because the Passover of us, Messiah, was slain:

8. Therefore let us keep the Feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Unless you believe Messiah Yeshua is our Passover, (and consume all of him as commanded) you too will die in your sins. :)
Ho hum. Say something that MEANS SOMETHING! Do I have to jump off a cliff to know that it's bad for me? That would SURELY be messed up! Nor do I have to follow your messed-up thinking to know that it, too, is bad for me! Your answers are so heady that you've forgotten how to follow simple directions!

Y'know, like "to go to the store, you go down main street to third street, take a right on third street, go two blocks, and take a left." That's how simple most of the Scriptures are and yet YOU blow them SO out of proportion that you can't even admit that Yeshua` said He was BODILY returning! Come down off your cloud of imagination and get your feet BACK ON THE GROUND!

_____

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hi Retroybyter,

I think you're forgetting that words are about communicating ideas. They (the words) themselves are merely vehicles.

You only need to look around at all the different things which can be put in a car, to realise that likewise, a word can perform a multitude of communication tasks, sometimes all at once, without having its identity compromised.

A brother I know says of Hebrew that words, that they have histories rather than meanings, (as in dictionary definitions).

Every time you bring the focus back to Jerusalem below, whose children are in bondage with her, you align yourself with the world's values. Until you see that being buried with Christ is a welcome release from the mindset of this world, (and the only route to being met by Him on the other side of His (your) tomb), you cannot see the realm where He now dwells and the renewing of your mind will feel like a threat to your natural (worldly) identity.

Beware of having a religious identity which has its roots in the natural man. It has the potential easily to deceive you.

The natural man has to be completely recreated in God's image, just as the inner man has to be completely renewed in God's image.

This is why Paul exhorts us to put off the old man and put on the new man. There is no place for both of them at the same time.
With all due respect, you are mixing things that shouldn't be mixed. The "natural man" is not the same as the "natural body." Paul gave every indication in 1 Corinthians 15:40-57 that the "sooma pneumatikos" is JUST AS REAL AND TANGIBLE as is the "sooma psuchikos!" It's NOT an ethereal, substance-less body; it's a supernatural, superman body! Sure, it's different than the physical body that can die, but that doesn't mean that it's intangible! Let's just look at ONE verse, 1 Cor. 15:47:


1 Corinthians 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

The Greek says,...

Pros Korinthious A 15:47
ho prootos anthroopos ex gees, choikos; hoo deuteros anthroopos, ho kurios, ex ouranou.
The Greek New Testament

ho = the
prootos = first
anthroopos = man
ek = out-of
gees, = earth/ground
choikos; = dust-like;
ho = the
deuteros = second
anthroopos, = man,
ho = the
kurios, = Master,
ex = out-of
ouranou. = sky.

Some versions of the Greek don't even include the words "ho kurios!" The comparison is between the MATERIAL from which the body of the man is built! It is NOT saying that Yeshua` is the "Master of Heaven!" That's confusion! Follow the couplets! Follow the comparisons! Can you see how easily just one, simple verse can be so misconstrued?

And, I've gotta hand it to daq. He is a MASTER at misconstruing the Scriptures! He does it in SPADES, with all of his misleading diagrams and pictures he likes to throw in on the side. But, HE didn't write the Scriptures, and he does NOT follow the thoughts of the authors. He forces them into HIS mold! He would be VERY good at re-writing the history textbooks to say what he thinks they SHOULD say, just as others are doing to write God out of our nation's history.

Now, about Galatians 4, Paul did NOT leave one comparison for another. Jerusalem below is not the children who are in bondage; it was Hagar and Mount Sinai that were in bondage. It was JERUSALEM, that happened to be above, WHO WAS FREE! He did not stop comparing Sinai to Jerusalem to start comparing Jerusalem below with a Jerusalem above! The Jerusalem he was talking about is the ONLY Jerusalem which he knew his audience could relate to, the literal Jerusalem they could go to and see! THAT is the Jerusalem that was the "mother of them all!" The sons of Jerusalem were FREE; the sons of SINAI were in bondage! READ IT AS THE AUTHOR WROTE IT!
 

dragonfly

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Hi Retrobyter,

Methinks you see what you want to see, and anything else is impervious to your understanding. That's okay as long as you're prepared to say you don't get it. The problem is not the not getting it, but kidding yourself that you do. Be aware: you are missing some things which one day you will find. :)

There are two Jerusalems. One is below and the other is above.

Here is the section of Galatians 4:

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (1) by a bondmaid, the other (2) by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh (1) ; but he of the freewoman was by promise (2).

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two [TWO] covenants; the one from the mount Sinai (1), which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this (1) Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which (1) now is, and is in bondage with her children.


Let's stop here. This Jerusalem (1), which is apposite to Agar (Hagar - the Egyptian) 'is mount Sinai in Arabia', 'and is in bondage with her children'.

26 But Jerusalem (2) which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ...

It is typical of Paul to flip to the end, instead of carrying on his reasoning in the same order as led up to his previous point. So then he proceeds to the reasoning:

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise (2).

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh (1) persecuted him that was born after the Spirit (2), even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?
Cast out the bondwoman and her son (1): for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman (2).

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman (1), but of the free (2).


Paul makes the same comparison elsewhere, without mentioning Jerusalem specifically.

Romans 9:6 '... For they are not all Israel (2), which are of Israel (1):

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children (1):

BUT, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (2)

8 THAT IS,
They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God (1): but the children of the promise (2) are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise (2), At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.


Paul had begun this section of his epistle with a call to Israelites who were missing out on what? On 'the adoption' (v 4) (2). Epheisians 1:5 (2)


Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (2) ('we' = Jews and Gentiles)

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage (1) again to fear;
but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (2)

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem (2) which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12: 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (2), and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn [ones], who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture?

Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


Paul is saying no-one can have it both ways. Do you agree? Or can't you see the distinction?
 

daq

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Amen dragonfly! :)

_____


Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.


Ho hum. Say something that MEANS SOMETHING! Do I have to jump off a cliff to know that it's bad for me? That would SURELY be messed up! Nor do I have to follow your messed-up thinking to know that it, too, is bad for me! Your answers are so heady that you've forgotten how to follow simple directions!

Y'know, like "to go to the store, you go down main street to third street, take a right on third street, go two blocks, and take a left." That's how simple most of the Scriptures are and yet YOU blow them SO out of proportion that you can't even admit that Yeshua` said He was BODILY returning! Come down off your cloud of imagination and get your feet BACK ON THE GROUND!
It all depends on where YOU are. If you happen to be in the Upper Room then take the southern Essene Gate out of the city and walk east as you exit the second gate from the Essene Quarter. Follow the brook of Kidron northward taking the same route which king David took when he fled from Absalom which is also the same route Yeshua took with his talmidim immediately after the Pesach Seder when they went up to Mount Olivet Moriah. When you get to the north fork in the Kidron take the one which goes westward toward the setting sun where you will find the Israel Pool and the Sheep Pool. Immerse in these two pools and as you come up out of immersion there you will be refreshed for the journey up the Ascent to Olivet at the top of Moriah. This route walks out at fifteen stadion, (just under two miles at about 9000 feet) just as the Scripture states in John 11:18. :)

bethany-bethphage.gif


However, if you are in the northern quarters of the city then take the Damascus Gate, (also known as the Fish Gate). This Hodos-Way is called "holding the Shabbat Way" ("Sabbatou echon hodon", Acts 1:12) because the highest point of holy Mount Moriah, and Golgotha the Place of the Skull, and Gan Gath-shemeni, and the empty Garden Tomb, and Bethany-Bethphage are all together in that location less than a half mile from the Damascus Gate, (within 2000 cubits) and thus a "Sabbath Day's" journey. Also of note is the fact that "Bethphage" means "the house of green-figs" and is where Yeshua raised Lazarus out of the dead, (see Song of Solomon 2:13) the same Bethphage is Bethany according to the Scripture.

Mark 11:1-2 KJV
1. And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,
2. And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.


Original Strong's Ref. #967
Romanized Bethphage
Pronounced bayth-fag-ay'
of Aramaic origin [compare HSN1004 and HSN6291]; fig-house; Beth-phage, a place in Palestine:
KJV--Bethphage.

Original Strong's Ref. #6291
Romanized pag
Pronounced pag
from an unused root meaning to be torpid, i.e. crude; an unripe fig:
KJV--green fig.

Song of Solomon 2:10-14 KJV
10. My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12. The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle [dove] is heard in our land;
13. The fig tree putteth forth her green figs,
[HSN#6291 pag] and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
14. O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Song of Solomon 2:14 ASV
14. O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, In the covert of the steep place, Let me see thy countenance, Let me hear thy voice; For sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Song of Solomon 2:14 RSV
14. O my dove, in the clefts of the rock, in the covert of the cliff, let me see your face, let me hear your voice, for your voice is sweet, and your face is comely.

Song of Solomon 2:14 YLT
14. My dove, in clefts of the rock,
In a secret place of the ascent, Cause me to see thine appearance, Cause me to hear thy voice, For thy voice [is] sweet, and thy appearance comely.


Just be sure you first take up your own cross, bring it with you, and utterly disown yourself.
The Master already has a special place set aside for every Simona Kurenaion housemaster:

golgotha-fissure.jpg


Does this help?


emoticon-giggling.gif
 
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dragonfly

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Hi daq,

I just got through reading the link you posted in post # 84 and watched the short video at the end. Wow. I'm still chewing it all over, but I'm convinced.

Twenty-four is the number of worship. Praise His holy Name. \o/ :)
 
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daq

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dragonfly said:
Hi daq,

I just got through reading the link you posted in post # 84 and watched the short video at the end. Wow. I'm still chewing it all over, but I'm convinced.

Twenty-four is the number of worship. Praise His holy Name. \o/ :)
Just be careful because there are surely some "tall tales" floating around that have attached themselves concerning those events so as to give the talebearers some form of credibility, (for example the "four angels vision"). However, do not let the talebearers steal the truth from you either; lest you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Likewise it is probably no coincidence that the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" came out within a year of the discovery which, of course, buried it as if the real discovery were a tall tale in itself. Likewise these things cast new light upon the following passage:

Hebrews 13:10-14
10. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12. Wherefore Yeshua also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one that is about to come.


Did the author of Hebrews know where the Ark was located when this was written? I say, yes, apparently so.
The Ark is the new Altar because the blood of the Lamb was seated upon the Mercy Seat at the right hand of the Father.

No continuing city? - Post#30

:)
 

dragonfly

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Psalm 48:1 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised
in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion,
on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.



I need more time to think about what else I want to reply, because you make me think harder than I'm used to! Which is a good thing :) .
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Psalm 48:1 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised
in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion,
on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.


I need more time to think about what else I want to reply, because you make me think harder than I'm used to! Which is a good thing :) .
You should understand that this is one passage that is most likely a song about the future New Jerusalem. There are several places in Scripture that confuse the mountain with the city. This is one of them. Notice that the word "in" in the second line IS NOT REALLY THERE! It was supplied by the translator of that particular version. The Hebrew of these two verses (+1 for the numbering difference) are as follows:


Tehiliym 48:1-3
1 Shiyr mizmowr livneey Qorach:
2 Gaadowl YHWH uwmhullaal m'od b`iyr Eloheeynuw har qaadshow:
3 Yfeeh nowf msows kaal haa'aarets har Tsiyown yarkteey tsaafown qiryat melekh raav:

1 Shiyr = 1 A-song
mizmowr = [and] psalm
livneey = to/for-the-sons
Qorach: = of-Korah:
2 Gaadowl = 2 Great
YHWH = YaHuWH/the-LORD
uwmhullaal = and-to-be-praised
m'od = greatly
b`iyr = in-city
Eloheeynuw = of-our-God
har = mountain
qaadshow: = of-His-holiness:
3 Yfeeh = 3 Beautiful
nowf = elevation
msows = delight
kaal = of-all
haa'aarets = the-earth/the-Land
har = mountain
Tsiyown = Tsiyown/Zion
yarkteey = flanks/aligned-with
tsaafown = of-north
qiryat = building
melekh = of-King
raav: = great:

1 A-song [and] psalm to/for-the-sons of-Qorach:
2 Great YaHuWH/the-LORD and-to-be-praised greatly in-city of-our-God mountain of-His-holiness:
3 Beautiful elevation delight of-all the-earth/the-Land mountain Tsiyown/Zion flanks/aligned-with of-north building of-King great:

The New Jerusalem, a pyramid-shaped city that stands 1,500 miles above sea level would CERTAINLY qualify as a "mountain!" Thus, it is both the city AND the mountain!
 

dragonfly

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Hi Retrobyter,

The new Jerusalem is pyramid-shaped? Could you point me to the verses which suggest that, please?

Many thanks.
 

iamlamad

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Daq wrote:
Are you truly willing to die for Yeshua? Immerse yourself into the Name of the Father, (all Torah is his Name) as Yeshua did. The same Spirit that raised up Messiah will likewise raise you up in the Great Day and no more shall you be "under" the law. :)

Daq, are you saying we are still under the law today, or are suppose to be? Surely this is not what you are saying! To say this, you would have to tear out most of Paul's epistles.

6. Knowing this, that our old man-anthropon is crucified together with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Daq, in your mind, WHAT is Paul's "old man?" What is he talking about?

Retrobyter wrote, concerning your post:

"You are LEADING PEOPLE ASTRAY! When Yeshua` returns IN HIS RESURRECTED, PHYSICAL BODY to establish His Kingdom on this earth AS PROMISED IN ALL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH, you're going to have a LOT of back-peddling to do! I hope you like to eat crow!"

Daq, do you or do you NOT believe that Jesus will return to earth, in His resurrection body? REtrobyter seems to think you don't believe this?

John 3:12-13
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Too bad most modern translations live that last phrase out!

Lamad

Retrobyter wrote,

"I don't want a pickles and ice cream hot-fudge steak with teriyaki sauce and sauerkraut on top!!"

Hilarious, absolutlely!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

Certainly. However, be aware that many of these conclusions are based upon other conclusions from other verses. It's a bit complicated, but not impossible to see and accept. For starters, Revelation 21:

Revelation 21:2-3
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = tent) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

First, the city is likened to a tent, not a house.

Revelation 21:16-17
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
KJV

Second, the sheer size of the city rejects a cube theory. At 12,000 furlongs (Greek: stadia after the Roman stadium which is 660 feet long), this is a city that is 1,500 miles long by 1,500 miles wide by 1,500 miles high. These dimensions do NOT suggest the shape; they are purely directional dimensions. A distance of 1,500 miles is roughly the distance between Tampa, FL and Minneapolis, MN. Even if one could drive the entire distance at 70 mph, this distance would take 21 and a half hours to drive! Even in a jet airplane with a cruising speed of 550 mph, it would take the better part of three hours (2 hours 43 minutes) to travel that distance!

The only statement in these verses that is related to the shape of the city is that "the city lieth foursquare." However, all that tells us is that the city LIES UPON a plot of ground with four square corners. It says NOTHING about the shape of the city above the base.

Here's where other conclusions come into the picture. I believe that the New Earth, mentioned in 21:1, is approximately the same as the present Earth, being formed from the materials of the present Earth. Let's look at 2 Peter 3:3-13 for a moment:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Verse 5 is talking about the world before the Flood of Noach's day. The earth (the ground) and the skies (the atmosphere) were positioned between waters, the waters below sea level that are called "seas" or "oceans," and the waters above the atmosphere AT THAT TIME, from which the rains of Noach's Flood came. Today's Earth is now a little different: ALL the waters (except what may evaporate into the atmosphere and condense in the sky as clouds) is below the atmosphere as seas, oceans, rivers, lakes, and underground reservoirs, and the skies have expanded outward, thinning and rarifying the atmosphere until it reached a new equilibrium.

Verse 6 mentions that Flood of Noach's time period, when he was 600 years old.

Verse 7 talks about the current Earth and atmosphere. That has been in existence since the Flood and will continue until the Fire.

Verses 7 through 12 talks about the coming Fire that will happen on "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," which is the same as the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:7-15.

Verse 13 talks about "new heavens (atmosphere) and a new earth (ground)" where righteousness will live. This seems obvious to me to be that new earth and new heaven which Yochanan (John) saw in Revelation 21:1.

Since the present earth and sky is not that much different than the earth and sky before the Flood, it only stands to reason that the earth and sky AFTER the Fire will also not be that much different than the present earth and sky. Indeed, there are several passages in Scripture that tell us that the earth will abide forever, even though we have these verses in 2 Peter that tell us the earth will be destroyed by fire. The key is to remember that there's a difference between "earth" as the dirt and ground upon which we walk and the "Earth" which we call our planet. The Scriptures will seldom refer to the whole Earth, although they frequently talk about the ground earth. This passage in 2 Peter is no different. The destruction that Kefa (Peter) told us about in 2 Peter 3:7-12 affects the GROUND "earth," not necessarily the entire planet Earth. Thus, the core and the mantle of our planet will not be affected much by this Fire. God will simply burn that portion of our planet that was affected by mankind and his sin. Only the Earth's crust, then, will be affected by the Fire. That means that the PLANET Earth will be pretty much the same after the Fire as it was before the Fire. I mean, a whole PLANET of 6.6 sextillion tons need not be destroyed on account of the puny specks of putrescence that live upon it! It just needs a good scrubbing!

Therefore, when Yochanan sees a "new heaven (sky) and a new earth," in Revelation 21:1, he is only looking at the SAME PLANET with a new "skin!" That means that the dimensions of the new Earth will be the same dimensions of the present Earth, and with that understanding in place, then we can compare the dimensions of the city to the dimensions of the present Earth.

The next conclusion is that the New Jerusalem will sit upon the New Earth. There are, once again, several factors that contribute to this conclusion.

First, is that there are said to be four sides to this city with three gates on each side: three facing east, three facing north, three facing south, and three facing west. Thus, the city must be low enough to be affected by the four compass directions of the surface of the earth. (Rev. 21:12-13.)

Second, the city's walls are said to have foundations (Greek: themelioi). Normal foundations to any structure are sunk into the earth's surface at least down to the bedrock, if possible. (The author of Hebrews said that Avraham was looking for a city that had such themelioi-foundations.) (Rev. 21:14, 19-20; Heb. 11:10.)

Third, the gates are said always to stand open so that the kings of the earth may bring their glory and honor into it. (Rev. 21:24-26.)

Fourth, where will the water from the river of the water of life flow? Wouldn't it make sense, since the river is in the middle of the street of the city, that it would flow to the gates and outward? It's just not going to pool at the bottom of the city! That would be a waste. It would be better to think of it flowing out of the gates and God using its life-sustaining properties to heal the surface of the Earth! (Rev. 22:1-2.)

So, for these reasons (and others), the city will land and sit upon the surface of the New Earth.

So, if the city will land upon the New Earth, and the New Earth's dimensions are comparable to the dimensions of the present Earth, then a distance of 1,500 miles compared to the Earth's circumference of 23,901 miles means that, of the 360-degree circumference, this distance would cover 22.593 degrees! That's a significant portion of the earth's curvature! So much so that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 22.593 degrees different than "down" on the other side of the city! This blows away the cube theory: IF the city is positioned so that the center of the city is exactly orthogonal to the surface of the city, then each side of the cube would be 11.2965 degrees short of being plumb to vertical. If, however, each side of the "cube" were plumb to its vertical, then the top of the city would be significantly longer than the 1,500 miles of its base! or if the top of the "cube" were held to 1,500 miles, then the base would have to be significantly shorter than 1,500 miles! Any way you look at it, the cube would have problems sitting upon the surface of the earth.

However, the pyramid, having four isosceles triangles for its walls such that the overall height of the city in the center was still 1,500 miles, would not be affected negatively by this 11.2965-degrees-short-of-plumb effect at all! Furthermore, the most basic and stable, mathematical shape would be that of a triangle, providing stability to the structure! Squares and rectangles can easily squash into rhombuses and parallelograms.

Revelation 22:1-2
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Another reason for believing that the New Jerusalem will be a pyramid is the origin of the river, the throne of God and of the Lamb: Where within the city is the logical location for the throne of God and of the Lamb? In a cube, the logical position would be in the center of the cube. However, in such a structure, one would have to pump water uphill to provide water to the all the trees and plants in the gardens for HALF of the city!

In a pyramid, the logical location for the throne of God and of the Lamb would be in the pinnacle, the "capstone," if you will. Indeed, the phrase "the head stone of the corner" or "the chief stone of the angle" IS a capstone!


Psalm 118:22-23
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord 's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
KJV

Remember: The children of Isra'el had FIRST HAND knowledge of the pyramids in Egypt, having been in service to them for the better part of the 430 years spent there before the Exodus. They may even have been used as slaves to build one of more of them!

A "cornerstone" MAY be the large stone used to start the square of the foundation for a building, but most of the time in Scripture, such a stone is the CAPSTONE of a pyramid, especially if it is a reference to THIS particular verse!

One might also point out Zechariah 4:7:

Zechariah 4:6-7

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
KJV

And, the "tomb" of (or monument to) Z'kharyahu is capped with the shape of a pyramid's capstone! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Zechariah.

So, the natural location of the throne of God and of the Lamb, being in the pinnacle of the city, would provide water to every location of the city below it as water would normally flow downhill with the force of gravity, rather than against it.

Revelation 21:23-24
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
KJV

and

Revelation 22:5
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

The argument here is similar to the one for the river of the water of life. Where would one most likely need the "light brighter than the sun" to be, somewhere half-way up the city or at the top? The Source of light, like the Source of water, would be best at the pinnacle or in the capstone of the city!

The NATIONS of those who are rescued shall walk in its light! Those nations are OUTSIDE of this city!

One should also note that these verses do NOT say that there will be no more sun or moon any more than they say there will be no more candles! The sun and moon are said to exist forever and ever! Only the NEED for them changes, and THAT only within the city! The rest of the New Earth will still need them.

In fact, time will not cease for it is an intricate part of the space-mass-time continuum. Instead, we will just have INFINITE time, with righteousness forever and no more sin or its consequences.

Anyway, these are my reasons for believing that the New Jerusalem will have a pyramid shape.
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
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Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for taking the time to share your explanation.

The part about the elements not really 'melting' as Peter states, I have heard before, but to be honest, I'm not convinced they won't all melt. That's partly because Peter's description begins with the heavens passing away 'with a great noise'. Noise is one of the most common components of a chemical reaction, along with heat and light, and if there's enough heat, there will be light, and in that case it's likely to be quite hot enough for 'the elements' to melt - an element being a fraction of a compound even if it cannot remain in a settled state apart from (an)other element(s) with which it combines.

The other thing I find slightly unexpected about your thinking, is that you've retained all the natural parameters we have now - a spherical earth, water flowing downhill (even though you accept that there was water 'above' before Noah's flood) and therefore, a meticulous justification of the pyramid, even though if anyone told you something was J x J x J (J to the power of three) you would expect it to be a cube.

Couldn't the new earth be flat? We cannot even be sure there will be stars and solar systems again, in the new 'heavens'. The key thing about the new 'land', is that its identifier will be 'righteousness'. (God's throne is established upon His righteousness.)

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Whatever it is that we are supposed to know we are worshipping, we can do it only 'in spirit and in truth'.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

What if the leaves of the tree on either side of the river are for the healing of the nations, now?

It doesn't make any sense to me that they should need healing after there is no more unrighteousness in the creation, don't you think?


Okay... That is not really about New Jerusalem, but it is relevant, because we are supposed to be living from faith to faith, exercising the gifts of the Spirit in many supernatural ways, as a sign that we are children of the most High God. That's why I don't expect the new heaven and the new earth to be anything less than 'supernatural', because we won't have any 'natural' left. It will all be gone for ever by then. :)
 

daq

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Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
iamlamad said:
Daq wrote:
Are you truly willing to die for Yeshua? Immerse yourself into the Name of the Father, (all Torah is his Name) as Yeshua did. The same Spirit that raised up Messiah will likewise raise you up in the Great Day and no more shall you be "under" the law. :)

Daq, are you saying we are still under the law today, or are suppose to be? Surely this is not what you are saying! To say this, you would have to tear out most of Paul's epistles.

6. Knowing this, that our old man-anthropon is crucified together with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Daq, in your mind, WHAT is Paul's "old man?" What is he talking about?

Retrobyter wrote, concerning your post:

"You are LEADING PEOPLE ASTRAY! When Yeshua` returns IN HIS RESURRECTED, PHYSICAL BODY to establish His Kingdom on this earth AS PROMISED IN ALL THE PROPHECIES OF THE TANAKH, you're going to have a LOT of back-peddling to do! I hope you like to eat crow!"

Daq, do you or do you NOT believe that Jesus will return to earth, in His resurrection body? REtrobyter seems to think you don't believe this?

John 3:12-13
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Too bad most modern translations live that last phrase out!

Lamad

Retrobyter wrote,

"I don't want a pickles and ice cream hot-fudge steak with teriyaki sauce and sauerkraut on top!!"

Hilarious, absolutlely!
If a man shares with you his lunch but you turn and trample it, and him, why then should you expect him to share his pearls old man? If you do not do the will of God you shall in no wise receive the Promise. Likewise if you are not resurrected before you die then you are dead because the flesh profits absolutely nothing. Physical death is therefore not even recognized in the New Covenant writings. Concerning resurrected bodies please read the thread and my response to you is the same as it was to Enoch2010, (along with Retrobyter). Get all of your proofs and passages together and start a thread; surely the three of you are not afraid to prove your case if it be true and you know yourselves to be justified in what you believe? As for "pickles and ice cream hot-fudge steak with teriyaki sauce and sauerkraut on top!!" Retrobyter apparently believes, as you do, that you are the "bride" which will be whisked away in a secret bodily rapture to be married and become "the wife of the Lamb" even though the Scripture clearly says that the sons of the resurrection neither marry nor are given in marriage. Poor, poor, Ephraim; still thinking himself to be a female, (indeed he is a heifer :lol: ). As for Paul and Torah you also have made your own choices concerning the understanding of his difficult words and writings. You misunderstand if you believe that Paul teaches that Torah is "abolished" and partly for this same reason most cannot comprehend what the "restrainer-katecho" concerns because without even realizing it you and all of your teachers and shepherds say that the "restrainer", (Torah) is now abolished! :lol:

Original Strong's Ref. #3807
Romanized paidagogos
Pronounced pahee-dag-o-gos'
from GSN3816 and a reduplicated form of GSN0071; a boy-leader, i.e. a servant whose office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor ["paedagogue"]):
KJV-- instructor, schoolmaster.

"A servant whose office it was to take the children to school" …

If this sounds familiar perhaps it should. Even those without children know what it means when they see children on their way to school, in a crosswalk, with a CROSSING GUARD. It is the duty of the crossing guard to ensure that the children make it safely to the school. The crossing guard keeps the children BETWEEN THE LINES ("hemmed in" or hedged about) through the danger zones of the pathways, walkays, highways, and byways that lead to the school. Once the children arrive at the school then they begin to learn the wonderful lessons taught by the Master Teacher himself, Mr. Torah. The crossing guard has done his morning duty but does not suddenly become irrelevant because when each day is done, about the same time as the evening oblation, the children pass through again after a hard day of learning from the class of Rabbi-Master Yeshua.

Matthew 18:1-4
1. At the same time came the talmidim unto Yeshua, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2. And Yeshua called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Psalm 1:1-6
1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
1:2 But his delight is in Torah of YHWH; and in his Torah doth he meditate day and night.
1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
1:4 The wicked are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
1:5 Therefore the wicked shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
1:6 For YHWH knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the wicked shall perish.


Paidagogos-Crossing Guard!
:)
paidagogos.jpg


Psalm 119:89-176
119:89 For ever, O YHWH, thy word is settled in heaven.
119:90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
119:91 They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.
119:92 Unless thy Torah had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.
119:94 I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.
119:95 The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.
119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
119:97 O how I love thy Torah! it is my meditation all the day.
119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
119:100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.
119:102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.
119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
119:106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
119:107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O YHWH, according unto thy word.
119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O YHWH, and teach me thy judgments.
119:109 My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy Torah.
119:110 The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.
119:111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.
119:112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end.
119:113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy Torah do I love.
119:114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
119:115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my Elohim.
119:116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
119:117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
119:118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.
119:119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.
119:120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.
119:121 I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors.
119:122 Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me.
119:123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.
119:124 Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes.
119:125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
119:126 It is time for thee, YHWH, to work: for they have made void thy Torah.
119:127 Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
119:129 Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.
119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
119:131 I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.
119:132 Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name.
119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
119:134 Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.
119:135 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes.
119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy Torah.
119:137 Righteous art thou, O YHWH, and upright are thy judgments.
119:138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.
119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words.
119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
119:141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts.
119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy Torah is the truth.
119:143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights.
119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
119:145 I cried with my whole heart; hear me, O YHWH: I will keep thy statutes.
119:146 I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.
119:147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.
119:148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.
119:149 Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O YHWH, quicken me according to thy judgment.
119:150 They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy Torah.
119:151 Thou art near, O YHWH; and all thy commandments are truth.
119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
119:153 Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy Torah.
119:154 Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.
119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
119:156 Great are thy tender mercies, O YHWH: quicken me according to thy judgments.
119:157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.
119:158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
119:159 Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O YHWH, according to thy lovingkindness.
119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
119:161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.
119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy Torah do I love.
119:164 Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.
119:165 Great peace have they which love thy Torah: and nothing shall offend them.
119:166 YHWH, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
119:167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
119:168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
119:169 Let my cry come near before thee, O YHWH: give me understanding according to thy word.
119:170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
119:171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
119:173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O YHWH; and thy Torah is my delight.
119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy mitzvot-commandments.
 

Retrobyter

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Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for taking the time to share your explanation.

The part about the elements not really 'melting' as Peter states, I have heard before, but to be honest, I'm not convinced they won't all melt. That's partly because Peter's description begins with the heavens passing away 'with a great noise'. Noise is one of the most common components of a chemical reaction, along with heat and light, and if there's enough heat, there will be light, and in that case it's likely to be quite hot enough for 'the elements' to melt - an element being a fraction of a compound even if it cannot remain in a settled state apart from (an)other element(s) with which it combines.

The other thing I find slightly unexpected about your thinking, is that you've retained all the natural parameters we have now - a spherical earth, water flowing downhill (even though you accept that there was water 'above' before Noah's flood) and therefore, a meticulous justification of the pyramid, even though if anyone told you something was J x J x J (J to the power of three) you would expect it to be a cube.

Couldn't the new earth be flat? We cannot even be sure there will be stars and solar systems again, in the new 'heavens'. The key thing about the new 'land', is that its identifier will be 'righteousness'. (God's throne is established upon His righteousness.)

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Whatever it is that we are supposed to know we are worshipping, we can do it only 'in spirit and in truth'.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

What if the leaves of the tree on either side of the river are for the healing of the nations, now?

It doesn't make any sense to me that they should need healing after there is no more unrighteousness in the creation, don't you think?


Okay... That is not really about New Jerusalem, but it is relevant, because we are supposed to be living from faith to faith, exercising the gifts of the Spirit in many supernatural ways, as a sign that we are children of the most High God. That's why I don't expect the new heaven and the new earth to be anything less than 'supernatural', because we won't have any 'natural' left. It will all be gone for ever by then. :)
I don't believe that I said anything about "the elements not 'melting.'" They WILL melt, but does it have to be the WHOLE planet Earth? NO! It only has to be the elements of the crust, and maybe not all of those! Isn't magma and lava "melted elements?"

Understand this: when I said that there was water above the atmosphere before the Flood of Noach's day, I did NOT say that it was LIQUID water. Water, the substance of molecules consisting generally of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, also comes in the gaseous and invisible water vapor as well as the solid ice. Also, clouds are NOT water vapor. They are the condensed liquid molecules that form on dust and smoke particles in the air, being condensed FROM the water vapor in our atmosphere. Clouds, being condensed water suspended on wind currents, are NOT transparent to light. That's why THICK clouds will almost appear black, as they hide the light of the sun. Not so with water vapor. Gaseous water molecules are invisible and permit the whole spectrum of light from the sun to shine through them. All God had to do was disrupt this vast ocean of water vapor to allow this ocean to condense and rain for forty days and forty nights.

You mentioned that "the heavens would pass away with a great noise." First, "a great noise" not only talks about a violent, chemical reaction, but it also indicates two things: An atmosphere in which sound waves may travel and a listener who can hear the noise! (BTW, not all chemical reactions are violent enough to generate audible sound.) Second, the "pass away" is not talking about the heavens' destruction; think more literally, they PASS BY AND AWAY! It's the RUSHING OF WIND! The Greek word that is translated "shall pass away" is "pareleusontai," the future, plural, third-person tense of "parerchomai" in the passive voice:

NT:3928 parerchomai (par-er'-khom-ahee); from NT:3844 and NT:2064; to come near or aside, i.e. to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causatively) avert:
KJV - come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It's a RUSHING OF AIR, coming near or alongside the observer, going by, and going away, rushing past him! But of course, none of this would make any sense if one didn't realize that "hoi ouranoi," is not so much "the heavens" as "heavens" or "heaven" is currently defined but is "the SKIES," our atmosphere of gases around this planet.

You said, "...if anyone told you something was J x J x J (J to the power of three) you would expect it to be a cube." You should have used "one" instead of "you," because I wouldn't make that kind of assumption. It is a common mistake, however, to leap to that assumption, which is why the cube theory has such a great number of proponents. Just the same, a measurement in a particular direction does NOT dictate the shape of the thing one is measuring! Suppose you were measuring a ... shoe. By using a caliper-like tool, like the shoe-size tool of a shoe store, one can find the length of the shoe, despite its shape. One could also do this with a yardstick, using one's fingers at right angles to the yardstick, to form such a caliper-like device, to measure the shoe (although it may be less accurate).

If one measures the shoe in all three directions, along an x-axis, along a y-axis, and along the vertical z-axis, would one rightly assume that the shoe was a rectangular box?!

The height of a pyramid is measured from the base to the farthest point away from the base at right angles to the base. In a regular, four-sided pyramid, this height would be measured from the center of the square of its base to its peak. If the pyramid is SOLID, then one cannot measure this distance directly from point to point. However, one might use a little trigonometry or surveying techniques to ascertain that measurement.

Are you ready for this? The tool that the messenger used was NOT a ruler or a yardstick! It was a golden TUBE (Greek: kalamon chrusoun = a golden reed)! It was a surveyor's THEODOLITE! Since when does ANYONE use a yardstick, no matter how long it may be, to measure ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED MILES?! Why did he have to make these measurements from the top of a high mountain?

Now, regarding a "flat New Earth," are you KIDDING ME?! Regarding physics, while it is possible, it is MUCH more difficult for mass of that magnitude to hold together in that shape. Furthermore, the center of gravity is a FUNDAMENTAL NATURE of mass, since all particles of mass exhibit a gravitational force. Thus, the center of gravity would be greater and gravity would be higher when closer to the center of the disk than at the edges of the disk. It makes no sense to suggest a "flat Earth." Also, no object of matter has only two dimensions; so, how THICK would this disk have to be? Think of such a "flat Earth" as a coin. And, would anyone be allowed to live in the other side of the disk? And, would anyone be allowed to live on the EDGE?! And, how would one get from a side to the edge or to the opposite side? Would this "flat Earth" be positioned on the backs of four huge elephants on the back of a large turtle?!

Furthermore, are you trying to say that all of Sir Isaac Newton's work would be FOR NOTHING, Newton giving credit to God for his discoveries?! The most basic shape in the Universe is the sphere. Isn't our current earth a sphere? And, God said, after He finished His creative work, it was VERY GOOD!


Isaiah 40:21-23
21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle (Hebrew: chuwg from the idea of turning or spinning chaagag) of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
KJV


Genesis 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
KJV

When GOD calls a thing "good," it is GREAT from our perspective! When God calls a thing "VERY good," it is PERFECT from our perspective!

Now, you said, "We cannot even be sure there will be stars and solar systems again, in the new 'heavens'." As I said, the word "ouranoi" is about this planet's "SKIES," the planet's ATMOSPHERE, not the Universe! You don't have to be worried about whether or not there will be stars and solar systems!


Psalm 89:35-37
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Righteousness is not a substance on which something may be built! It is a pure attitude and record of actions! Righteousness is an immaterial CONCEPT, not a concrete, material substance. So, if someone says, "God's throne is established upon His righteousness," he is not saying that God's throne is physically built upon some object called "righteousness"; he is saying that God's RULERSHIP is established by being focused on righteousness or justice!

Worshipping God "in spirit and in truth," is easily understood when one understands that "pneuma-spirit" is often used as we would use the word "attitude" or the word "demeanor" today. Here are some examples:


Matthew 5:3
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
KJV

Luke 9:54-56
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
KJV

Acts 18:25
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
KJV

Acts 20:22-23
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
KJV

Romans 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV

Romans 12:10-13
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
KJV

1 Corinthians 2:12
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
KJV

1 Corinthians 4:21
21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
KJV

2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
KJV

Galatians 6:1
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
KJV

Ephesians 1:15-17
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
KJV

2 Timothy 1:6-7
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
KJV

1 Peter 3:3-4
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
KJV

1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

1 John 4:6
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
KJV

Notice that in each of these cases, no damage is done to the passage when one replaces "spirit" with "attitude" or "demeanor." "In spirit and in truth" just simply means "in attitude and in honesty."

Regarding John 7:38, be careful quoting this verse until you know from which Scripture this is quoted. It's a PUZZLE that one must understand BEFORE one can meaningfully use the verse. We can talk about it at another time, if you'd like, but it will take some time to cover.

Finally, regarding "the leaves of the tree on either side of the river," this is not just some figurative language. I'm sorry that you have this notion that eternity is so cut-and-dried. God is a DYNAMIC God! He is NOT static! Life goes on; there just won't be any sin or its consequences. Because people will be in physical bodies, physical properties are still in place. Thus, it will ALWAYS be true that "two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time," and accidents can still happen. However, it will also ALWAYS be true that "the hands of the King are the hands of the Healer!" And, one will NEVER be able to stop trusting in GOD! (Why would one want to?) It is a fallacy to think that eternity will be "hunky-dory" for ever and ever with absolutely no problems ever again. Those are NOT the promises we have received! Those are the VAIN IMAGINATIONS produced by a theological position!

Please understand me; this is not an arbitrary selection of information! Everything hinges upon each other!
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
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Southeast USA
dragonfly said:
The part about the elements not really 'melting' as Peter states, I have heard before, but to be honest, I'm not convinced they won't all melt. That's partly because Peter's description begins with the heavens passing away 'with a great noise'. Noise is one of the most common components of a chemical reaction, along with heat and light, and if there's enough heat, there will be light, and in that case it's likely to be quite hot enough for 'the elements' to melt - an element being a fraction of a compound even if it cannot remain in a settled state apart from (an)other element(s) with which it combines.

The other thing I find slightly unexpected about your thinking, is that you've retained all the natural parameters we have now - a spherical earth, water flowing downhill (even though you accept that there was water 'above' before Noah's flood) and therefore, a meticulous justification of the pyramid, even though if anyone told you something was J x J x J (J to the power of three) you would expect it to be a cube.

Couldn't the new earth be flat? We cannot even be sure there will be stars and solar systems again, in the new 'heavens'. The key thing about the new 'land', is that its identifier will be 'righteousness'. (God's throne is established upon His righteousness.)
Peter's "elements" do not mean the earthly material elements like the elements of the atomic weight table. You have to look up the Greek word there for "elements" in 2 Pet.3:10. It means an orderly arrangement. It is put for this world time and man's works being destroyed off the earth. This earth will remain forever. Even the Hebrew word for "new" in Isaiah 65:17 can mean to renew or repair (see 2 Chron.24:4 "repair").

Better yet, in 2 Peter 3, he is giving us a previous pattern for God's destruction upon the earth with the "world that then was", when God overflowed it with water. See what Paul said about in the last section of Hebrews 12 also.

Ps 78:69
69 And He built His sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which He hath established for ever.
(KJV)
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
dragonfly said:
That's partly because Peter's description begins with the heavens passing away 'with a great noise'. Noise is one of the most common components of a chemical reaction, along with heat and light, and if there's enough heat, there will be light, and in that case it's likely to be quite hot enough for 'the elements' to melt - an element being a fraction of a compound even if it cannot remain in a settled state apart from (an)other element(s) with which it combines.

The other thing I find slightly unexpected about your thinking, is that you've retained all the natural parameters we have now - a spherical earth, water flowing downhill (even though you accept that there was water 'above' before Noah's flood) and therefore, a meticulous justification of the pyramid, even though if anyone told you something was J x J x J (J to the power of three) you would expect it to be a cube.

Couldn't the new earth be flat? We cannot even be sure there will be stars and solar systems again, in the new 'heavens'. The key thing about the new 'land', is that its identifier will be 'righteousness'. (God's throne is established upon His righteousness.)

John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Whatever it is that we are supposed to know we are worshipping, we can do it only 'in spirit and in truth'.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

What if the leaves of the tree on either side of the river are for the healing of the nations, now?

It doesn't make any sense to me that they should need healing after there is no more unrighteousness in the creation, don't you think?


Okay... That is not really about New Jerusalem, but it is relevant, because we are supposed to be living from faith to faith, exercising the gifts of the Spirit in many supernatural ways, as a sign that we are children of the most High God. That's why I don't expect the new heaven and the new earth to be anything less than 'supernatural', because we won't have any 'natural' left. It will all be gone for ever by then. :)

veteran said:
Peter's "elements" do not mean the earthly material elements like the elements of the atomic weight table. You have to look up the Greek word there for "elements" in 2 Pet.3:10. It means an orderly arrangement. It is put for this world time and man's works being destroyed off the earth. This earth will remain forever. Even the Hebrew word for "new" in Isaiah 65:17 can mean to renew or repair (see 2 Chron.24:4 "repair").

Better yet, in 2 Peter 3, he is giving us a previous pattern for God's destruction upon the earth with the "world that then was", when God overflowed it with water. See what Paul said about in the last section of Hebrews 12 also.

Ps 78:69
69 And He built His sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which He hath established for ever.
(KJV)
The man is the "earth" whether speaking of the 'adamah-soil of the heart or the 'erets-outer-court "commons-profane" of the flesh. The outer-court commons of the temple of the man is likewise known as his "fields" (wherein "the beasts of the field" can also take up residence). And likewise again the mind of the man is likened to "the heavens" and, thus, the man contains the heavens-mind, the earth-'adamah-soil of the Parable of the Sower's heart, and the 'erets-land-commons-profane-fields of the beasts. In the day of Shavuot-Pentecost from Acts 2 the disciples which were gathered together in one accord had been through the immersion of Yochanan and were with Yeshua through his ministry, his teachings, doctrines, parables, and further witnessed his crucifixion death at Golgotha and then saw him after he was raised out from the dead. These had traveled the road with him through thick and thin and were now fully immersed in his teachings as well as the immersion of Yochanan and Torah as well.

ONLY THEN DO THESE THINGS OCCUR:

Acts 2:1-4 KJV
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty [violent] wind, [Re: 2 Peter 3:10] and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Paul here uses the same wording from the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua:

Revelation 21:1-5 KJV
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I
John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

yeshua-with-talmidim.jpg