2nd Thess. /Rapture/Man of Sin

KrissHow many churches do you know of that teaches post trib? there are so many churches preaching the gospel and teaching these pre-trib lies. They dont want to even listen to a debate. Blinded I guess. I think tithing is another false teaching.Steveoceanman

I say unto ye, Give me YHWH, Yahshua and His Words over any man. The truth is more important than money.Love much, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.

Pray for pre-trib, live for mid-trib, prepare for post-trib. Also, remember the "Day" of the Lord is not a 24 hour period. Revelations reveals that as well as Isiah. Also, a day to the Lord is as a thousand years. The Day of the Lord I believe will consist of the Millinial Reign of Christ, The Day of White Throne Judgement, and enetering the new Heaven and the new Earth. JMHB.

Pre-trib...Mid-trib...Post-trib...Meh, they are all Satanic lies. And we don't pray for false doctrines to be the Word of God. We pray that God teaches us the truth.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour.

I have found it sooo interesting that pastors will not even look at the scripture that proves we will be in tribulation when Jesus comes. They have no interest in changing their views or are afraid to. They learn pre trib in college and that it. Jim Bakker is the only *** of God pastor that has renounced pre trib. He discoverd the truth when he was in prison. I think he stands up for it on his tv program.( not that I think he's a good preacher).Oceanman

Actually I find it disgusting that people would rather live by men's words which will vanish, instead of the Word of the Living God that will never vanish.Love much, JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.

I lean toward a mid-trib rapture. But don't feel I have put all the pieces in place well enough to have a firm conclusion. It is unclear to me why Jesus stops speaking to the church & switches to speaking about the Jews.Leaving the timing of the rapture aside. What surprises me most, is that there is so little teaching about the 7th church age. This is where we are & these are Jesus' warnings. But yet, almost no one deals with it. Frankly, these verses fill me with a great sense of trepidation. Because they are the harshest correction of the church collective in the Bible.Regardless, God (not us) determines when the rapture occurs. Our call is to be faithful. I'd prefer not to go thru the tribulation. But it isn't my choice. I signed up with God for the long haul & don't plan to change my path.

In Revelation 1-3, Jesus dictates to John warnings & blessing to 7 churches; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. These are 7 historic churches. Each also represents a sequential age that the church will pass thru in it's history.Ephesus- the early churchSmyrna- the following age of persecution under RomePergamum- the age when the church combined things of the world into it's teaching. About the time of Constantine (300AD.)Thyatira- the church of the dark to middle agesSardis- the reformation periodPhiladelphia- the evangelizing churchLaodicea- the lukewarm churchSo this is what Jesus says about the church in the age we live (Rev 3:14-22.) 14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."Even those who see the pattern through the ages, are generally failing to address the warnings of our age. Which are even harsher & more emphatic in the Greek than the English. This warning is addressed to the church, not the unsaved.Laodicea means the people judge, decide or have an opinion. And empathizes that our church age is characterized by diverse opinions (among Christians) & that the people (not Jesus) are directing what is being taught (also shown by Jesus standing outside & knocking.) It describes the overall indifference we as Christians have to the gospel.

Christ's Return FOR His Church - The Body - The Gathering Together:It is crucial to understand the different comings of Christ. At his first coming to the earth to Israel he was crucified. At the rapture/gathering together of the Christian Church, often referred to in Scripture as his "appearing," Christ never actually arrives on earth. He comes for Christians only and they meet him in the air. At his Second Coming, Christ again comes to the earth to Israel. The ParousiaMatthew 24:3 --- And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?Verse 6 --- And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end [telos] is not yet.The word "coming" in Matthew 24:3 is the Greek word parousia, translated in the Bible as "coming" and "presence.," and always indicates the personal presence of the person spoken of. To understand Christ first coming we should take a look at His second coming. Micah 5:2 indicates Christ's coming forth from Bethlehem (which event is recorded in Matthew 2:1) while Zechariah 9:9 indicates Christ's coming unto Jerusalem (which event is recorded in Matthew 21:1-10). The events between and including Christ's birth and His ascension is His "first" coming. And just as Christ's first coming spanned a period of time so does his second coming, the "parousia."The events of the end (sunteleia) include: (1) Christ first coming for His saints (the Church of the Body), (2) the events of the book of Revelation with Christ coming with His saints, (3) the first and second resurrections, and finally (4) the end, "telos" when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God.Christ second coming has two basic phases. The two parts of the parousia must be clearly distinguished to avoid serious error. With these two phases all the dead shall be made alive and the living believers made immortal. The part of the "parousia" return of Christ for His Church is called in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 "our gathering together unto him." First of all, one must note that the gathering together in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 affects only those who are born again of God during the age of the Church of the Body, which age is the period between the day of Pentecost to the first part of the parousia. The unsaved of the Church of the Body period, and all others before and after the Church Age, will be resurrected when Christ comes "with" His saints.The order of events in the return of Christ for the Church of the Body was revealed to Paul and is recorded in I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15.I Thessalonians 4:13-18:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Those who are alive will be "caught up" in the clouds along with those believers who have just been previously raised from dead to meet the Lord "in the air." With this coming of Christ "for" His Church, He will not come "on" the earth; He will simply gather the dead and living of the Church of the Body. I Corinthians 15 corroborates these events.I Corinthians 15:51-54:51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,*52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.When the mortals have put on immortality and the dead and corruptible ones have been raised incorruptible, all shall have a new body as set forth in chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians.I Corinthians 15:44:44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Our fleshy body is a natural body. But with the gathering together, we shall have a new look, a new type of body --- a spiritual body. Until Christ comes, the dead remain in "hades" with corrupted physical bodies and unconsciousness. Christ Returns WITH His Church - The ResurrectionsThe Coming of Christ with His saints to the earth is also a part of the "parousia" but is solely related to the Lord's Day.This part of the parousia must definitely be distinguished from the first part of the "parousia" when Christ comes for His Church. The coming of Christ "with" His saints, called in Greek "apokalupsis," is the "appearing," "revelation," "the advent," and "the day of the Lord." The "day of the Lord" includes the period of God's judgment. The Church of the Body will never have to endure this experience for it shall already have been gathered together. It would be no comfort if we had to pass through the tribulation of the revelation period. Furthermore if the gathering together is confused with the resurrection, then the whole Church of the Body would have to go through the tribulation, Because the Church of the Body will not be on earth during the tribulation period, I Thessalonians says, ". . . comfort one another with these words." That believers of the Church of the Body will be spared the tribulation, spoken of in Revelation, is disclosed several times in the Epistles. II Thessalonians 2 is one example.II Thessalonians 2:1-3:1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2. That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by words, nor by letter as from us, as the day of Christ is at hand.Verse 2 says, “That you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.” Paul is denying the teaching that the “Day of the Lord” had already come, a teaching that apparently was being attributed to him (“nor by letter as from us”). Only those who had been taught that they would be gathered together unto Christ before the day of wrath arrived would be “shaken from their composure or be disturbed” at the thought that the day of the Lord had begun and they were still on earth. Because Paul had taught them that they would be gathered together unto the Lord first, they would be very concerned that either they had been left behind or that Paul had been wrong.Verse 3 --- Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;". . . a falling away first" is properly translated "a departure first."The Church will be departed and "with" Christ before the wrath of the day of God's judgment comes to pass. The following passages also substantiate this truth.Romans 8:1 --- There is therefore now no condemnation [katakrima, judgment] to them that are in Christ Jesus.I Thessalonians 1:10 --- And to wait for his son from Heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.Romans 5:9 --- Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.At this part of the "parousia" of Christ, the Church will already have been judged, not for punishment but for rewards. II Corinthians 5:10, in reference for the "parousia" for the Church, says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ . . . ." This judgment seat is the "bema," the "place," from which prizes and rewards are given for "the things done . . . ."The Church of the Body appears before the bema of Christ to receive the "crown of righteousness," "rewards" for the deeds done for the faithfulness of our stewardship for Him.We appear before the bema of Christ not to receive sentences of wrath of condemnation, but to "have praise of God." None of God's born-again children in Christ will ever be judged as to their standing or for anything else for they have already been judged in the Person of their substitute and mediator, Christ Jesus (John 5:24, 3:17, 18; I Corinthians 11:32; Romans 8:33, 34; I Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9).God bless you,Agape

The word tribulation in the writings of the apostles has two meanings. It can be the very judgment of God, or it can be the suffering of saints. The two cannot and are never the same. For Yeshua, the Christ, tasted death and judgment for all men, especially those who believe by the grace and will of God. In Yeshua's death He was in the judgment of God, not an unrighteous judgment, but a righteous one, for it is written, "thy judgments are true, the statutes right in all their ways." A believer in Christ cannot be found in the judgment of God toward unrighteousness. It cannot be, or we make Christ a liar. Let God be true and every man a liar.Yeshua foretelling from the scriptures of the prophets the "not one stone standing upon another" judgment of Jerushalem in 70 AD said in Matt 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation (the very judgment of God against unrighteousness), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." No believer in Christ perished in this judgment, not ONE. It is the same in every generation of judgment, God always preserves a remnant of grace, according to the election of grace, not by the works of the law or men in the flesh.Again, in Matthew 24 Yeshua is talking about the judgment of Yerushalem in 70 AD. Yeshua was crucified, judged so that they, the Jews, would not be crucified:this is God's judgment. This is why the gospel is to the Jews (those of Yudah) first, and then to the Gentiles. For as it was in the generation after the Christ, Yeshua, a generation of judgment, the judgment fell upon Yudah, of the tribe of Yudah and Benjamin first. Thus the gospel is to them whom the judgment fell first. For only Yudah was brought back to the land with a decree from Cyrus. The kingdom of Israel's judgment was once by the Assyrians in 7222 BC, with no decree to come back to the land afterward. The kingdom of Yudah was judged by the Babylonians in 586 BC. The decree given to go back to the land 70 years later, then Babylon was judged. The Romans (God's instrument of judgment) once again brought judgment upon Yerushalem in 70 AD . And now they, Israel, has been gathered back to the land starting in 1948, a land for all Israel, all the tribes. And yet unbelief continues to this present day, but the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. It is written "all Israel shall be saved", not a remnant, but ALL. All Israel, made up of all the twelve tribes, Dan excluded, Eprhraim replaced by Joseph, in one generation, shall be saved. Another judgment does not await Israel, but the mercy and the grace of God.The great tribulation was the judgment of Yerushalem in 70 AD. There is not another great tribulation or judgment. The judgment that awaits the land of the Gentiles in our day and hour is the judgment of God. If I use the word tribulation in the context of God's judgment let it be clearly understood that I speak of God's judgment and not the righteous sufferings of the saints. God's judgment is God's judgment. And the judgment of God upon Yerushalem in 70 AD was the great judgment of God. There is not another great judgment or tribulation.And so I have written about tribulation as judgment, now I will mention tribulation as it pertains to persecution. Paul writes, "the godly in Christ will suffer persecution", or it could be written as referring to righteous suffering only "the godly in Christ will suffer tribulation". This tribulation or persecution is what John wrote in Rev 2:10, "ye shall have tribulation for ten days". This does not mean they would endure the judgment of God ten days. Again, the chosen of God cannot be found under the judgment of God or whatever it is called, neither can they die as other men. "For to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord." The unbeliever dies and is found in sheol, the abode of the dead. Spiritually ten days means "you shall have persecution for a short while." These are spiritual words. Judgment must begin at the household of faith, and it begins with betrayal and righteous suffering. This is the judgment of justification that occurs with suffering, or persecution, not the judgment of God in His wrath towards unrighteousness.And so as we have mentioned Matthew 24 was spoke about the great tribulation, the great judgment of God's wrath that occurred upon Yerushalem in 70 AD. Thus there is not another great judgment: it was like no other. I will take Yeshua at His words. There is a judgment that now awaits the earth very shortly, upon the land of the Gentiles, beginning with the judgment of the great *****, secret Babylon, and ending with the destruction those who oppose the Christ: they will come against Israel after her conversion. The judgment of the great ***** Babylon is in one day and one hour by fire, as is the judgment of nations against Israel in one day and one hour by fire. But this is not as the great tribulation which it too was by fire. For though the judgment of Yerushalem in 70 AD was entered into in one day and one hour, it lasted one full year, great distress, like no other time. Yeshua's words, not mine. It was the great judgment of God. It was the great tribulation of God.He who has grace to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

What is a "similitude" and a "type?": Simply stated, all the events and various stories in the Bible are examples of what is to come. These particular events and stories did in fact happen, but through God's perfect plan and intervention; these events and stories will replicate themselves in a similar manner, were-by we can understand one thing that is to come in the future, by our understanding of another thing already past. This is one of the keys to understanding prophecy. What is a "parable?": A parable is one thing that acts as another thing, or one thing that represents another thing. Christ so often spoke in parables. He did this as a way to say one thing and have it mean different things to different people at different levels of instruction. But no one meaning can go against the other meanings, this is a witness to the supreme authorship of God, and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the writings and events recorded in our Bibles. Matt 13:34-3534 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (KJV)Matt 13:10-13 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (KJV)I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.""Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns. What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings.Each of the events that took place, the opening of the Red sea, the building of the false religious forms, and so on. God is telling us "look little children that is what is going to happen to you at the close of this earth age". We are living in that age, and these things are happening now. Can you learn by this? It is so simple. God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation. Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."There is nothing new under the sun, even to the point of what happens at the end of this earth age, is a copy of what happened at the end of the first earth age. God has detailed out for us in His Word all events that will take place, right up to His second coming at the sounding of the seventh and final trumpet. He has name the signs, and given us examples even of the one world system that is coming upon us now, and will rule the minds of all mankind very shortly, all that is, except God's elect who know the truths, and will not be deceived.

Antichrist shall win the hearts of the world through deception, false doctrines, and outright lies; not murder and torture - God does not allow supernatural beings to do that to humans, but satan likes to make you think it will be that way so that when he (antichrist/satan) comes pretending to be sweet Jesus, the peoples of the earth will kneel down to him thinking that he is the true Savior from God. Sad!1Thes 5:1-41 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (KJV) Let's take a deeper look at the above Scripture:1Thes 5:1-41 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.Paul is saying that you should know the season of the Second Advent (not the moment mind you, no man knows that, but the wise will know the season by the prophecies fulfilled).2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.A thief comes unexpectedly. When will people least expect Jesus Christ to return? When they think that He is ALREADY here.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.When will they feel safe in the Lord? When they think that He is among them. But then what happens to them when they feel safe in the Lord? Sudden destructions comes upon them because they are not really with the Lord as they supposed they were, but rather, they are with satan in disguise. The destruction is the calamities that befall the earth when Jesus Christ returns at His Second Advent with the Saints, who have died in generations past all throughout history, to find a world, even his Christians, serving satan, though they do so unawares, they have been deceived by the soothsaying doctrines of men to worship the first supernatural entity that comes to earth claiming to be Messiah. The only problem is that satan (antichrist) is the first supernatural entity that comes to earth claiming to be the Messiah of God.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (KJV)We who study God's Word are expected to know better. But we, as whole, do not study God's Word on the matter, we listen to the fairy tales of men channeled by one Margaret MacDonald on her sickbed through a demon in the Spring of the year A.D. 1830 - The birthday of the Rapture Doctrine!II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."Paul had converted these Corinthians and taught them enough to get their church on the move. Paul is speaking here about and directing attention to those people that are meddling with the church that he has established. Paul is having righteous jealousy over the converts that he brought to salvation, and he is telling them that he has made each of them part of "the bride of Jesus Christ", the anointed One. This isn't hard to understand, for most everyone knows what a virgin is. A virgin is an untouched woman. Paul is saying that he wants to present each of these Corinthians as a chaste virgin to Christ, in as much as they are the bride of Christ. Paul is saying that He doesn't want Christ's bride messed with by any of these super-preachers that are causing the divisions within the churches. For a young woman to be "espoused" to her husband means that she is completely committed to him, even before the vows have been exchanged. Paul is using this relationship whereby we could understand the emotions of Christ towards His bride. The feeling and commitment goes both ways, and applies to the man as much as it applies to the woman. It is no great secret what causes virginity to be lost, for it is being unfaithful sexually to the one you are espoused to marry. If a woman has been unfaithful, and is with child, how could she expect that she could be accepted by the man she was espoused to, when she is carrying another man's child? Paul is afraid that if Christians start listening to these fairy-tale preachers, they will be taken by the wrong christ, or Satan the Antichrist [the instead of Christ]. Then when Jesus Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, they will be found unworthy to be part of "the bride of Christ". Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:19; "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" He was not referring to a mother with a child in her womb, but spiritually speaking, Christians that have given themselves over to the wrong husband. In ignorance they will have been deceived into climbing into the spiritual bed of Satan, and their hearts have been given over to the Satan. If you are one of the whores of Satan, than you cannot be one of the virgins of Christ waiting with your lamps full of oil [which is the truth from God's Word] that is waiting for the coming of the bridegroom, which is Jesus Christ. Paul now is putting it into a language that most anyone can understand. Paul is saying; "I'm afraid that one of these false teachers is going to seduce youII Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."