Coming in the clouds of heaven

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HeRoseFromTheDead

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I saw something today that I have never seen before. I was reading something on Michael Blume's website (http://mikeblume.com/clouds70.htm) about Matthew 26:64

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:63-64

I have always thought that Jesus was speaking somewhat obliquely, and was referring to the end times when he returns with clouds. Of course, that interpretation reflects the typical myopic, self-centric mindset of our modern culture. I have read the preterist interpretations that allegorize this passage to mean that Jesus came in the clouds of judgment in 70 AD to destroy Jerusalem. I could somewhat go with that. But as I was reading, the spirit clearly spoke to me and told me that Jesus was referring to the messianic prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14:

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

Caiaphus knew Jesus was referring to this prophecy, and considered it blasphemy that the despised Nazarene would declare himself the fulfillment of it. The High Priest had commanded him to solemnly testify under oath if he was the messiah, and Jesus complied indirectly by telling them that their decision to condemn him would result in the son of man being exalted to the right hand of GOD from which he would execute irremediable judgment upon Jerusalem. Whether Caiaphus personally saw this judgment or not, we don't know. But Jesus was also speaking to the entire Sanhedrin, some of whom may have seen this judgment nearly 40 years later. So what Jesus was effectively telling them was that their judgment to condemn him would result in their destruction.

Another interesting facet is that the Hebrew verb translated 'see' in Matthew 26:64 signifies gazing with wide eyes (in astonishment), as those in Jerusalem certainly must done during the Roman siege and the horrific atrocities that occurred within the city during that time.
 

stefen

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The explanation given by the guy you mentioned doesn't meet with any of basic credentials. There are lots of false prophecies / explanations like these on web. For eg: family radio. So, just ignore it.

Jesus will come soon in clouds. Maranatha..!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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stefen said:
The explanation given by the guy you mentioned doesn't meet with any of basic credentials. There are lots of false prophecies / explanations like these on web. For eg: family radio. So, just ignore it.

Jesus will come soon in clouds. Maranatha..!
I don't agree with his exegesis either, now.

Yes, Jesus will come again in the clouds, but I think his reference was to the Daniel prophecy when he was speaking with Caiaphus.
 

veteran

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I saw something today that I have never seen before. I was reading something on Michael Blume's website (http://mikeblume.com/clouds70.htm) about Matthew 26:64

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:63-64

I have always thought that Jesus was speaking somewhat obliquely, and was referring to the end times when he returns with clouds. Of course, that interpretation reflects the typical myopic, self-centric mindset of our modern culture. I have read the preterist interpretations that allegorize this passage to mean that Jesus came in the clouds of judgment in 70 AD to destroy Jerusalem. I could somewhat go with that. But as I was reading, the spirit clearly spoke to me and told me that Jesus was referring to the messianic prophecy in Daniel 7:13-14:
It's the reverse, YOUR interpretation "reflects the typical myopic, self-centric mindset of our modern culture".

WHAT A DECEIVER YOU ARE!

Isn't that just like what false Jews do brethren??? They are always categorizing a direct Biblically written Scripture into some modern imagery slang to taint things!
 

daq

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Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
The "clouds of heaven" concern the Lord's Day, (Revelation 1:10) and the final appointment of Atonements:

Leviticus 16:1-13 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the Lord, and died;
2. And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
3. Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.
4. He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
5. And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
6. And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
7. And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
11. And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
12. And he shall take
a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord,
that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

ark-cloud.jpg


Each in his or her own appointed times . . . :)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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daq said:
The "clouds of heaven" concern the Lord's Day, (Revelation 1:10) and the final appointment of Atonements:
Does the phrase 'clouds of heaven' in Daniel 7:13 refer to the lord's day?
 

daq

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Does the phrase 'clouds of heaven' in Daniel 7:13 refer to the lord's day?
In what Great Day are all "the books" said to be opened? (Yom Kippur) :)

Daniel 7:9-10 KJV
9. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, [set] and the ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

John 5:21-22 KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Revelation 1:13-15 KJV
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


Most translations of Daniel 7:13 are therefore incorrect . . .

Daniel 7:13 TUA
13. Chazeh hweyt bchezwey leylya'. Wa'ruw -- `im-`ananey shmaya' kbar 'nash 'ateh hwah. W`ad- `AtiyqYowmaya' mTah uwqdamowhiy haqrbuwhiy.
13. "Watching I was, in the visions of the night; And behold -- with the clouds of heaven, one like a son of man, coming he was. And unto the ancient days he exists-extends, and the Presence of him drew near [in] them [with the clouds].
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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daq said:

Daniel 7:9-10 KJV
9. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, [set] and the ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Daniel 7:13 starts a new vision. It is not connected with the one you quoted above.
 

daq

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Daniel 7:13 starts a new vision. It is not connected with the one you quoted above.
That is merely your opinion which is immediately proven incorrect by the interpretation given:

Daniel 7:14-26 KJV
14. And there was given him dominion, [the one like unto the Son of man from the previous verse] and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19. Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20. And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


The Ancient of Days comes, (one like unto the Son of man) and the judgment sits, and the dominion of the fourth Beast of the man is destroyed while his "hard-rain" (Aramaic "geshem" translated as "body" Daniel 7:11) is given to the conflagration of the flame. It is all one vision even according to the interpretation given to Daniel. The four beasts are four "kings" which arise out of "the earth", (the man is always the earth-land-soil according to the Master in his parables) and these are the four generations of the four dominions of the man which rise up in his earth before what time the Son of man returns, (each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times). Perhaps you might type "Beasts of Man" into your search engine and see what comes up on the subject. :)
 

veteran

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Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)

It's just... not that difficult to discern when those on false Preterist doctrines are telling LIES. Christ's Revelation given to Apostle John was in the days of the Roman emperor Domitian, approx. 96 A.D.

Let's see, 70 A.D., 96 A.D., which... date is LATER FOLKS?

If my mocking offends you brethren that know better than what 'ChristRoseFromTheDead' is wrongly teaching, then I apologize to you brethren, but not to him, nor those with him. Those on the crazy Preterist doctrines of men claiming that Christ's second coming was history back in 70 A.D. DESERVE to be mocked.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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veteran said:
Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)

It's just... not that difficult to discern when those on false Preterist doctrines are telling LIES. Christ's Revelation given to Apostle John was in the days of the Roman emperor Domitian, approx. 96 A.D.

Let's see, 70 A.D., 96 A.D., which... date is LATER FOLKS?

If my mocking offends you brethren that know better than what 'ChristRoseFromTheDead' is wrongly teaching, then I apologize to you brethren, but not to him, nor those with him. Those on the crazy Preterist doctrines of men claiming that Christ's second coming was history back in 70 A.D. DESERVE to be mocked.
Well I don't know if full preterists need to be mocked, but they certainly need to be rebuked (or whatever) for teaching the wicked doctrine that Christ returned in 70 AD.
 

MTPockets

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Yes, it's true that the second coming of the Lord is repeatedly pictured as a coming on (with or in) the clouds of the sky.
Ummm, this subject matter can be easily understood by simply asking ourselves this question:
How are clouds formed?
The answer is:
Clouds are formed by tiny condensed water droplets or ice crystals.
After cloud droplets (or ice crystals) form, then what happens to them?
One of two things:
Either they embrace each other and grow by joining together to such a large size that they fall to the ground as rain or snow, or they evaporate and change back into water vapor.
At this point we would do well to remember the Scripture saying, "Here is the mind which has wisdom", (Rev 17:9).
It requires spiritual wisdom/insight to understand what the meaning is behind the words of this Thread's verse.

Now, an accompanying question which we might wish to ask ourselves:
What exactly happened when accepted the gospel of Jesus and repented?
When we repented, God raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, (Eph 2:6).
Is the meaning of the verse becoming clearer for you now?
As a drop of water evaporates from the sea and rises up into the air, so at our regeneration we were transplanted into the heavenly places, (Eph 2:6). We now move and have our being and begin to function in the Kingdom of God.
The water, the invisible inner man of the heart, rises up by the power of the Holy Spirit, which is the influence of God, the Sun of Righteousness.
The cloud consists of millions of drops; it's an image of the church of Jesus Christ.
In the invisible world the waters, (the spirits), are separated. All religions on earth are from below. Only those who belong to Jesus are from above. Jesus told the religious leaders of his day: "You are from below. I am from above; you are of this world; I am not of this world", (John 8:23).

So, behind the words of this Thread's verse is a 'parable'; a vapor arose from the sea and clouds have been formed.
In the Bible the sea is the image of the invisible spiritual world and the earth is the image of the visible material world.
In the heavenly places the drops form a cloud.
When the Bible says that in the latter days Jesus will come with the clouds of heaven, it means that He returns with His church. As at daybreak the morning clouds descend on the earth as a dew of heaven, so in the end-times our Lord returns to earth with His church.


References:
Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Daniel 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
Matthew 26:64 "You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Mark 13:26 "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
Luke 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
 

daq

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Not "the clouds of the sky" but rather "the Clouds of Heaven" as per the Scripture meaning:

Revelation 8:3-4 KJV (Re: Leviticus 16 ~ See Reply #5 above)
3. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar [the altar of incense] which was before the throne.
4. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Arnie Manitoba said:
mr blume is near here and if you listen to his sermons he almost thinks he is christ or something ..... I worry about him
I'm sorry I mentioned his name now. His writing doesn't agree with my interpretation, and really has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


I think the point people are missing regarding my OP is that Jesus was not referring to his second coming in Matthew 26:64, but to his fulfillment of an existing prophecy that the pharisees knew full well referred to the messiah. Thus Caiaphus' rage when a despised Nazarene whom they likely considered to be a bastard equated himself with it.

Yes, Jesus will return in clouds of heaven, but that was addressed by subsequent prophecies in the books of Acts and Revelation.
 

veteran

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Well I don't know if full preterists need to be mocked, but they certainly need to be rebuked (or whatever) for teaching the wicked doctrine that Christ returned in 70 AD.
Preaching that the signs for the end that Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 were fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans IS... man's doctrine of Full Preterism. The reason is because the very last sign Jesus gave there is about His future second coming and gathering of His Church. Let's not try to hide that fact.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I'm sorry I mentioned his name now. His writing doesn't agree with my interpretation, and really has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


I think the point people are missing regarding my OP is that Jesus was not referring to his second coming in Matthew 26:64, but to his fulfillment of an existing prophecy that the pharisees knew full well referred to the messiah. Thus Caiaphus' rage when a despised Nazarene whom they likely considered to be a bastard equated himself with it.

Yes, Jesus will return in clouds of heaven, but that was addressed by subsequent prophecies in the books of Acts and Revelation.
No problem about the M.Blume part ..... but just a quick thought on "the clouds" issue ..... doesnt jesus come several different times "in the clouds" ..... i could be wrong ...... didn't He appear "in the clouds" already with Moses and Elijah ???? or were they just taken away in the clouds.

Anyway (in my thinking) Jesus may have ''come in the clouds" already ...... but He will do so again in the future.
 

veteran

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Jesus has of yet... to come in the clouds of heaven, simply because that event is aligned with His one-time return back to this earth when He will gather His Church and defeat His enemies here on earth. It is also linked to HOW He ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives per Acts 1, which is another way we were shown just what His coming in the clouds means.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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veteran said:
Jesus has of yet... to come in the clouds of heaven, simply because that event is aligned with His one-time return back to this earth when He will gather His Church and defeat His enemies here on earth. It is also linked to HOW He ascended to Heaven from the Mount of Olives per Acts 1, which is another way we were shown just what His coming in the clouds means.
Acts 1:9 is the same event as Daniel 7:13. Jesus left the earth in the clouds and arrived at the throne of GOD in the clouds:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

Caiaphus would have only known about the Daniel prophecy.
 

veteran

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Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Luke 21:27-28
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
(KJV)

Mark 14:62
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(KJV)

Matt 26:64
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(KJV)

Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(KJV)