EASTER?

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Webers_Home

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tim_from_pa, on 31 Mar 2013 - 16:51, said: I'm saying he did not arise
Sunday morning, but Saturday late

Your chronology has Jesus rising on the seventh day of the Jews' week.
That's the wrong day. By combining Matt 28:1, Luke 24:1, Luke 24:13-24,
and John 20:1, it's readily determined that Jesus rose on the first day of the
Jews' week; not the seventh.

Buen Camino
/
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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tim_from_pa said:
In short, I'm saying he did not arise Sunday morning, but Saturday late in accordance with firstfruits requirements, and that's only 48 hours (2 days and 2 nights after burial) using a Thursday model.
I think what you're meaning to say is that he rose as Sunday began, i.e., Sunday evening
 

tim_from_pa

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I think what you're meaning to say is that he rose as Sunday began, i.e., Sunday evening
Yes, as Sunday began on a Jewish calendar, Saturday evening on ours, say about Saturday 6PM. I know what I am saying and how to keep time, but I'm not sure others here are which may be the source of confusion. They may be misunderstanding me thinking I'm saying something a whole day off for all I know. When a complete 24 hour day starts on a Jewish day, the night comes first, then the day. So when I say he was interred Wednesday evening (by our reckoning), that's the start of Thursday (the 15th) on a Jewish calendar. 3 days later would be the start of Sunday (the 18th). It's also the end of the 14th, and 3 days later the end of the 17th Saturday Sabbath, which on our way of reckoning time is still Saturday. (This is why you been seeing me post 14th/15th+ 3days = 17th/18th). The burial and resurrection occurred between days (and dates) actually, and this may be a source of confusion as well. This is because it obviously takes time to bury someone, and is not an instantaneous event, so it started on the 14th, but the last thing done, rolling that stone took place just as the 14th, ended and the 15th began. This border makes it possible to say that one cannot count the 14th as time in the tomb because he was still being buried, but it was completed for the start of the 15th (the next day in a Jewish calendar) to fulfill that feast and have an entire day in the tomb.

The resurection would be instanteneous, but he had to still be in the tomb the entire third day, but arisen by the time the 18th began. This was the first full day of his being alive again, so he could not be dead even a part of that day, but arisen to fulfill the firstfruits. So, in that regard, I hold the traditonal view he was arisen on Sunday, but he was not dead even the first nanosecond into it. He was fully live by the time the 18th dawned, and again this is really between the dates. So to summarize, 14th he was alive, but dead part of the day but not buried yet (thus the 3-day time span did not commence yet), then was dead and buried all of 15, 16, 17, and 18th was alive again. Last I looked on any calendar, the 15th, 16th and 17th were 3 whole days and nights.
 

Webers_Home

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ChristRoseFromTheDead, on 01 Apr 2013 - 05:18, said: I think what
you're meaning to say is that he rose as Sunday began, i.e., Sunday evening

It's just that kind of mixing and mashing of days and nights that puts people's
minds into oscillating vapor lock. Sundown Saturday commences a Saturday
night. Sunday evening doesn't occur until the afternoon of the following day.

If people want their Jewish days to begin and end at sundown, then when
would they like their Jewish nights to begin and end? at sunrise?

According to Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-16; day and night are distinctly
separate; viz: day is when the sun is up, and night is when the sun is down.
Failure to comply with that God-given rule will inevitably result in an
erroneous chronology of crucifixion week.

Buen Camino
/
 

tim_from_pa

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According to Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-16; day and night are distinctly

separate; viz: day is when the sun is up, and night is when the sun is down.

Failure to comply with that God-given rule will inevitably result in an

erroneous chronology of crucifixion week.
And just for the record here, that's exactly how I'm doing it. I don't see much other mention in these posts about sunrise and sunset the way I mention them. I'm seeing instead Gentile contortions added to the calendar.

And speaking of rules, I am showing how these events did occur on the appointed feast days. Others have Jesus being buried and the first day in the tomb the same day as the crucifixion (thus violating Unleavened Bread fulfillment), and others have him rising later on Sunday (thus violating Firstfruits after the wave offering).

But nevertheless I'm the one being called in violation here. Perhaps being called the way I do, I should change my name to "Mr. Kettle".
 

Webers_Home

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tim_from_pa, on 01 Apr 2013 - 07:33, said: I am showing how these
events did occur on the appointed feast days.

Screwing around with feast dates is throwing you off. If you would but
simply count the three days and nights, you'd get it: keeping in mind that
the Bible abundantly attests that Jesus rose "on" the third day; not on a
fourth after the third was over.

Something else you need to factor into your thinking is that Jesus' feast
dates did not coincide with the Jews' dates. In other words; the Bible attests
that Jesus ate his own Passover lamb a full 24 hours ahead of the Jews' lambs.
Since Jesus was a prophet never out of contact with God; then I'm inclined to
give him the benefit of the doubt that his feast dates were spot-on, and theirs
were off. Subsequently, your dating is probably off too; which is all the more
reason why you should stop screwing around with feast dates and work only
with the three days and nights; counting in reverse from Sunday morning. When
done like that; even a second-grade Sunday school kid will get it right.

Buen Camino
/
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Webers_Home said:
.
ChristRoseFromTheDead, on 01 Apr 2013 - 05:18, said: I think what
you're meaning to say is that he rose as Sunday began, i.e., Sunday evening

It's just that kind of mixing and mashing of days and nights that puts people's
minds into oscillating vapor lock. Sundown Saturday commences a Saturday
night. Sunday evening doesn't occur until the afternoon of the following day.

If people want their Jewish days to begin and end at sundown, then when
would they like their Jewish nights to begin and end? at sunrise?

According to Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-16; day and night are distinctly
separate; viz: day is when the sun is up, and night is when the sun is down.
Failure to comply with that God-given rule will inevitably result in an
erroneous chronology of crucifixion week.

Buen Camino
/
One day is composed of a morning/afternoon (daytime) and night, and begins at night. No need to quibble about semantics.
 

tim_from_pa

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Webers_Home said:
.
tim_from_pa, on 01 Apr 2013 - 07:33, said: I am showing how these
events did occur on the appointed feast days.

Screwing around with feast dates is throwing you off. If you would but
simply count the three days and nights, you'd get it: keeping in mind that
the Bible abundantly attests that Jesus rose "on" the third day; not on a
fourth after the third was over.

Something else you need to factor into your thinking is that Jesus' feast
dates did not coincide with the Jews' dates. In other words; the Bible attests
that Jesus ate his own Passover lamb a full 24 hours ahead of the Jews' lambs.
Since Jesus was a prophet never out of contact with God; then I'm inclined to
give him the benefit of the doubt that his feast dates were spot-on, and theirs
were off. Subsequently, your dating is probably off too; which is all the more
reason why you should stop screwing around with feast dates and work only
with the three days and nights; counting in reverse from Sunday morning. When
done like that; even a second-grade Sunday school kid will get it right.

Buen Camino
/
OK, I'll put you down for the record on this forum that Yahweh's feasts days add confusion to your time line and that the events of Yeshua and the feasts did not match. Thus your statement is that you effectively despise them and are not important prophetic events are noted. While you're at it, make your bible lighter and rip out the OT pages.

As for me, I'll keep the calendar correctly because you have not demonstrated in the least you know anything about that nor time.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
One day is composed of a morning/afternoon (daytime) and night, and begins at night. No need to quibble about semantics.
The reason there is quibbling is because there's too much Gentile ideas and even paganism regarding these events, and thus twisting the Bible to fit Gentile calendars and time lines. All I shown was 3 days mathematically, and the feasts of Yahweh(i.e. the Hebrew calendar) which apparently don't matter to some, thus despising prophecy in the OT.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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tim_from_pa said:
OK, I'll put you down for the record on this forum that Yahweh's feasts days add confusion to your time line and that the events of Yeshua and the feasts did not match. Thus your statement is that you effectively despise them and are not important prophetic events are noted. While you're at it, make your bible lighter and rip out the OT pages.

As for me, I'll keep the calendar correctly because you have not demonstrated in the least you know anything about that nor time.


The reason there is quibbling is because there's too much Gentile ideas and even paganism regarding these events, and thus twisting the Bible to fit Gentile calendars and time lines. All I shown was 3 days mathematically, and the feasts of Yahweh(i.e. the Hebrew calendar) which apparently don't matter to some, thus despising prophecy in the OT.
In solving any problem one has to start with what is well know. The festival days are key. Absolutely has to align with those.
 

Webers_Home

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FAQ: According to Luke 23:39-43, Jesus went to paradise when he died. If
that's true, then why did he tell Mary Magdalene at John 20:17 that he had
not yet ascended to the Father?

For two good reasons.

(1) According to Acts 2:24-32, the paradise that Jesus went to wasn't up, it
was down.

(2) Jesus had yet to ascend to his Father as a resurrected man; and
according to 1Cor 15:35-54, a resurrected man is quite a bit different than a
regular man.

Buen Camino
/
 

excubitor

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I too have heard that the expression Three days and three nights is an idiom for about three days. I agree with this explanation and have no problem with it. There are a few of these idioms in the scripture such as camel through the eye of a needle and multiply you as the stars in heaven and their throat is an open sepulchre. We have idioms as well 'pulling my leg', 'took me to the cleaners', 'keep head above water'. Idioms can dangerously distort our understanding of events if we enforce a direct literal interpretation.

However for those absolutely must eek 3 days and 3 nights out of the account, here is an interesting approach. It relates to the darkness during which Christ hung on the cross. If he died during that darkness and this was counted as one night then that would make 3 nights
12PM-3PM Friday
sunset Friday - sunrise Saturday
sunset Saturday - sunrise Sunday

and the 3 days are
3PM Friday - sunset Friday
sunrise Saturday - sunset Saturday
sunrise Sunday - resurrection

So that is the three days and three nights.

What is without equivocation is that a simple reading of the accounts with no interpolation makes it clear that Christ died at 3PM on the day before the sabbath and that he rose at sunrise on Sunday. Its really clear and obvious and the sects which try to stretch it out to a full 72 hour period have to invent entire days into the account which are just not there.
Sorry, but I have to follow the scripture.
 

tim_from_pa

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here is an interesting approach.....
Yes, very interesting. Interesting we have to approach the bible. 3 days and 3 nights don't only NOT meant that, but now "heart of the earth" no longer means the tomb as Jonah in the whale's belly--- it can now include the cross.

I heard a similar theory, only this fellow started the 3 days during the garden and his trial, he did not even wait until Yeshua was dead! I guess he was already "dead" because he was sad, oh so very sad.

Yes, indeed, interesting approach(es), no doubt.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Again, this whole thing hinges on what the sabbath referred to in Leviticus 23:11 was. If it was the weekly sabbath, then 3 full days and nights works. If it was the first day of unleavened bread then we have to assume '3 days and 3 nights' is an idiom.

Since we don't know what the sabbath referred to was, we can only speculate based on reasoned judgments.
 

excubitor

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tim_from_pa said:
Yes, very interesting. Interesting we have to approach the bible. 3 days and 3 nights don't only NOT meant that, but now "heart of the earth" no longer means the tomb as Jonah in the whale's belly--- it can now include the cross.

I heard a similar theory, only this fellow started the 3 days during the garden and his trial, he did not even wait until Yeshua was dead! I guess he was already "dead" because he was sad, oh so very sad.

Yes, indeed, interesting approach(es), no doubt.
Like I said.
I believe that the 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom.
My rather fanciful interpretation was for the sake of those people who feel compelled to take a very literal interpretation of 3 days and 3 nights in order to spare them from the folly of believing that Christ was in the grave from Wednesday to Saturday.
 

Webers_Home

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It's very easy to prove that Jonah was alive inside the fish at some point.

†. Jonah 2:1-2 . . Jonah prayed to Yhvh his God from the fish's belly.

But it's just as easy to prove he was dead at some point too.

†. Jonah 2:6 . . To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth
beneath barred me in forever.

Mountains aren't rooted in the bellies of fishes; rather: they're rooted in the
earth; which is exactly why Jonah said the earth beneath barred him in
rather than the lips of a fish's mouth.

So; we have a man praying from two locations:

†. Jonah 2:1 . . Jonah prayed to Yhvh his God from the fish's belly.

†. Jonah 2:2 . . Out of the belly of sheol I cried

In other words; Jonah prayed from two bellies: the belly of a fish, and the
belly of sheol. Since the record shows Jonah in only two places-- and one of
them is clearly the belly of a fish --then by default the belly of sheol is
located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains.

But how is it possible for Jonah to be inside the fish while at the same time
down inside the earth? Well; the answer is pretty easy if we but simply allow
that people exist beyond the demise of their organic bodies. In other words:
while Jonah was dead; his corpse was interred in the fish; and his soul was
warehoused in the netherworld.

According to Acts 2:25-31 Christ, while dead, was in two places at once too:
in a grave, and in hades; which is the Greek equivalent of the belly of sheol;
which, according to Mr. Jonah, is located in the vicinity of the roots of the
mountains.

†. Matt 12:39-41 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the
belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights
in the heart of the earth.

Christ wasn't buried in the heart of the earth. In point of fact, he wasn't
even buried in the earth's soil. No, he was buried in a rock tomb on the
surface of the earth. How then was he in the heart of the earth? Well; the
same as Jonah. While Christ's corpse was interred in the rock, his soul was
warehoused in the netherworld.

†. Ps 16:10 . . For you will not leave my soul in sheol, nor allow your holy
one to see corruption. (cf. Luke 23:43)

NOTE : A certain well-known denomination insists that when a human being
dies, it goes completely out of conscious existence. In other words: in their minds,
human existence is entirely physical; which is exactly the kind of thinking to
be expected from the mind of a man under the sun; viz: a philosopher who
only knows what he knows about life from what he can see; rather than
what he cannot see. (cf. Ecc 9:5)

Their resurrection doctrine therefore is not a resurrection according to the
traditional meaning of the word, but rather; a re-creation: which essentially
implies that when Christ died on the cross, he ceased to exist; viz: for three
days and three nights, there was no Christ-- neither in this life nor in the
next. So in order to "raise" Christ from the dead, it was necessary for God to
create Jesus' previous existence back to existence. In other words:
according to the beliefs of some religions; the pre-ascension Christ was a
second Christ; viz: a redux.

That belief of course assumes that the Lord's soul died on the cross right
along with his body; which of course it didn't because assassins can't kill
souls.

†. Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul.

In other words: the soul doesn't perish along with the demise of one's body.
Not that it's impossible; it's just that only God can pull off something like
that.

†. Matt 10:28b . . but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.

The Greek word for "hell" in that verse is geena; an environment that is
much worse than the haides of Luke 16:23-- much worse.

Buen Camino
/
 

tim_from_pa

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excubitor said:
Like I said.
I believe that the 3 days and 3 nights is an idiom.
My rather fanciful interpretation was for the sake of those people who feel compelled to take a very literal interpretation of 3 days and 3 nights in order to spare them from the folly of believing that Christ was in the grave from Wednesday to Saturday.
Well, my friend, I can point out follies all over your theory, but I'll just state one. Since when would Yahweh count the first night that darkness while on the cross? When it got light again that would make it the next day by his reckoning. Now.... if you knew the law, a body could not hang on the cross over night, and abomination. You said it, I did not, claiming that you "have to follow scripture". Hmmmmm. ?? You mean follow traditions of men that you been indoctrinated into believing. And that's just one example. I can find another. Well, I'll state one more just for fun since I'm on a roll here. You admit it's a "fanciful interpretation". Right. Fine example of "following scripture".

Now mine, it's 3 full and literal days, and all the events fall on Yahweh's feast days, the shadows of things to come. Show me where it doesn't fit that?

Reread some of my posts about the 12 hours in a day, and that the 3 days and 3 nights were specific allusions to those 12 hours --- something that precise ceases to be an idiom. You have to understand about time and their calendar to know where they are coming from and why some people, who are brave enough to count to 3 properly, believe what they do.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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tim_from_pa said:
Now mine, it's 3 full and literal days, and all the events fall on Yahweh's feast days, the shadows of things to come. Show me where it doesn't fit that?
This is the key; ignoring this only leads to error.
 

tim_from_pa

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Again, this whole thing hinges on what the sabbath referred to in Leviticus 23:11 was. If it was the weekly sabbath, then 3 full days and nights works. If it was the first day of unleavened bread then we have to assume '3 days and 3 nights' is an idiom.

Since we don't know what the sabbath referred to was, we can only speculate based on reasoned judgments.
I think the scriptures answered that. The women bought the spices after the Sabbath, but then in another passage they prepared then, THEN rested on the Sabbath. Now, if that was the same Sabbath, how could they prepare them before the Sabbath and then go out and buy them after the Sabbath? Plus.... since one has to rest on the Sabbath, be it High Holy Day or weekly, there had to be a non-Sabbath day between them to prepare them, as that was a lot of work to do.

John 19:31 calls that Sabbath a High Day, ie. a feast day. That Sabbath does not have to fall on Saturday obviously.

As for the OT, Lev 23:11 is the weekly Sabbath. How do we know? Because we count to the 50th day (7 weeks) to the morrow after the seventh Sabbath to Pentecost. That day is the morrow after the seventh Sabbath or Sunday. Now, if Lev 23:11 was the day after the Unleavened Bread Sabbath, i.e. Nisan 16, then the 50th day would not have fallen on the "morrow after the seventh Sabbath" but rather on the same day of the week as Nisan 16.

For sure, some Jewish sects did celebrate Firstruits on the 16th (e.g. Pharisees), but others on Sunday, the latter being obviously correct. But I'm sure the different sects argued it out just as there's those who would debate here about the 3 days and 3 nights.
 

sniper762

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tim_from_pa said:
I already explained that. He was referencing 12 hours in the daytime because of the sundial reference I mentioned. Us gnomonists knew exactly where Yeshua was coming from because that's language we understand, like a code, and the precise 3 days and 3 nights (he said it I didn't) ceases to be an idiom for that reason alone. Don't people know about time or how to count to 3? I guess not.

You accuse me of the very thing you are doing yourself, i.e. picking scripture to suit your needs because you have to fit your ten pounds of fudge in that 5 pound bag, so you look for scriptures to fit the theory. You never came up on that yourself, nor would an unchurched person ever believe just by reading the Scriptures that the crucifixion happened either Thursday or Friday. You can't fit 3 days and 3 nights in that time span no matter how much song and dancing is done. You believe that because that's what tradition tells you and I can hear the desperation grabbing for straws trying to support your view.

Must I ask the question again why even a child knows that Friday sundown until predawn Sunday morning is as silly as it sounds? And yet we argue like being without a clue that it is, and yet any other function we know perfectly well how to keep a calendar. :rolleyes:

Nisan 14 late: Passover, crucifixion
Nisan 15: 1st day of unleavened bread in the tomb
Nisan 16: 2nd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 17: 3rd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 18: Sunday Firstfruits
Nisan 14 he's alive until late in the day.
Nisan 18 he's alive again (resurrected)
That makes Nisan 15-17 the 3 full days, satisfies Matthew 12:40 and the feast days of Yahweh in Leviticus 23.
Simple as 1,2,3.

It amazes me how something like this, purely mathematical and precise, can be disputed. But I had the pleasure on another Christian forum where people did just that --- they argued how to multiply, add and subtract. I commented to the effect, "Only on a Christian forum will people debate something as precise as the nature of mathematics." :rolleyes: And they were telling me why my answer was wrong (it was right BTW, because even calculators and computers backed up the answer, not because I said so) but they still believed what they wanted because they were sure they were right. Incredible.
its all about how one chooses to interpret the scriptures.
 

excubitor

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tim_from_pa said:
I already explained that. He was referencing 12 hours in the daytime because of the sundial reference I mentioned. Us gnomonists knew exactly where Yeshua was coming from because that's language we understand, like a code, and the precise 3 days and 3 nights (he said it I didn't) ceases to be an idiom for that reason alone. Don't people know about time or how to count to 3? I guess not.

You accuse me of the very thing you are doing yourself, i.e. picking scripture to suit your needs because you have to fit your ten pounds of fudge in that 5 pound bag, so you look for scriptures to fit the theory. You never came up on that yourself, nor would an unchurched person ever believe just by reading the Scriptures that the crucifixion happened either Thursday or Friday. You can't fit 3 days and 3 nights in that time span no matter how much song and dancing is done. You believe that because that's what tradition tells you and I can hear the desperation grabbing for straws trying to support your view.

Must I ask the question again why even a child knows that Friday sundown until predawn Sunday morning is as silly as it sounds? And yet we argue like being without a clue that it is, and yet any other function we know perfectly well how to keep a calendar. :rolleyes:

Nisan 14 late: Passover, crucifixion
Nisan 15: 1st day of unleavened bread in the tomb
Nisan 16: 2nd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 17: 3rd day of Unleavened Bread in the tomb
Nisan 18: Sunday Firstfruits
Nisan 14 he's alive until late in the day.
Nisan 18 he's alive again (resurrected)
That makes Nisan 15-17 the 3 full days, satisfies Matthew 12:40 and the feast days of Yahweh in Leviticus 23.
Simple as 1,2,3.

It amazes me how something like this, purely mathematical and precise, can be disputed. But I had the pleasure on another Christian forum where people did just that --- they argued how to multiply, add and subtract. I commented to the effect, "Only on a Christian forum will people debate something as precise as the nature of mathematics." :rolleyes: And they were telling me why my answer was wrong (it was right BTW, because even calculators and computers backed up the answer, not because I said so) but they still believed what they wanted because they were sure they were right. Incredible.
Go back and read your scriptures. The events from Friday until early on Sunday are described along with the passage of the days and nights. There are no events for the extra days that you have advocated. Nor are the passage of these extra days and nights described in the scripture. There is no evidence that there were two Sabbaths from the text. What you have given is nothing more than conjecture to give you an excuse to stick the boot into the established Christian religion. Your stark literal demand for 3 entire days and 3 entire nights might find a certain appeal amongst the simple minded who could thereby be lured away from the mainline christian churches into quasi-Christian sects and cults but if you think that anybody with any background with the scriptures and the history of the Christian church is going to buy in then you are sadly mistaken.
We know with certainty that the 1st Day of Unleavened bread was on the same day as the Sabbath that year making it both a Sabbath and a High Day. Any of the seven Jewish Feast days were High Sabbaths.
We do not need to consult ancient calendars and make astronomical observations or peer into the history pages of records of eclipses or anything like that to know that the Sabbath was on the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread because THE SCRIPTURE TELLS US IT WAS. "John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)

So lets read the account with this clearly fixed in our mind that the sabbath was a High Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sabbaths

Luke 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

No problem. Where is the extra sabbath, where are the extra days. The simple reading of this account is unequivocable, that Christ was buried on Friday the preparation day for the sabbath. The women rested on the sabbath and came early the next day (sunday). Even a child can understand this simple account. Only individuals with powerful ulterior motive could be led to twist and distort this simple account to fabricate a wednesday burial and sat evening resurrection (or any other bizarre combination).

If we lived in a different age this new fangled modern teaching that is an innovation of the last century would be declared as a heresy and its teachers cast out as anathema. The danger to men's souls of this teaching that Christ was dead for an entire three days and three nights is incalculable as it serves as a hook into a range of other associated sabbatarian teachings of the judaisers. Let us all be warned.