2 MTPockets, GINOLJC.
you hit the key, "Everything which remains invisible to the natural eye is mirrored in our visible world"
Abstract, and Concrete. Subjective, and Objective.
Pockets, consider this. Jesus the Christ is the visible, (concrete, the objective), image of the invisible, (the Subjective, the Abstract), Spirit in Flesh and Blood.
and two you touch on many thing that we will discuss, I 'm Very much Look forward to this discussion. maybe this can touch on some of the thing you have said, for these are similar to your post, which I'm still digesting.
Heads up, if you find any mispelling, or incorrect sentences, charges it to my head, and not my heart, thanks.
I believe the point of contention is the Titles, "Father", and "Son". if the titles are the same person, then the confusion is in HOW THE ONE PERSON OPERATE IN BOTH TITLES AT THE SAME TIME. we know that the title "Father" belongs to the Spirit, who we encompass the name Holy Spirit. but how do the Holy Spirit encompass the title "Son", especially at the same time?. the answer for me can be found in the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the "same" God which worketh all in all". in these scriptures, it states that the Same Spirit, is the Same Lord. HOLD IT. we know from scriptures, that the Lord is Jesus the Christ, who is the (Son). the question should be asked, how is the SAME Spirit the Son?. my answer is in the word, "diversity". the prophet Isaiah 9:6 states a Child is born, and a son is given. here we have two transaction. a child is "born". this is according to the flesh of men or animals. we know this as the Son of God, or the outward man. supportive scripture, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". so we know that the flesh of our Lord Jesus, the outward man is called the Son of God. note the cap"S" here in Son. now for the birth of that flesh.
G1080 γεννάω gennao (ghen-nah'-o) v. "Born", or "begotten"
1. (properly, of the father) to procreate
2. (by extension, of the mother) to conceive
3. (figuratively) to regenerate
[from a variation of G1085]
KJV: bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring
Root(s): G1085
but our Lord was begotten of the HOLY SPIRIT, and not man. supportive scripture, Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ". note, if one would read the the Whole genealogy of our Lord, all was "begat", by some man except our Lord Jesus. he was born, already begotten of the Holy Spirit. notice, in all my reference to the word God, I replaced it with the word Holy Spirit. so what was born, was not begotten of men, but only was born of a woman. so what was begotten was of the Holy Spirit, and that which was begotten of the Holy Spirit, became spirit. not another person, or another existence, or being, no, but a diversity. meaning the SAME as in a share. I'll clear up the words "diversity", and the word "Another", later. listen to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words concerning the word being,
* When not part of another verb (usually the participle), or part of a phrase, this word translates one of the following:
(a) the present participle of eimi, to be," the verb of ordinary existence;
( B) the participle of ginomai, "to become," signifying origin or result;
(c) the present participle of huparcho, "to exist," which always involves a preexistent state, prior to the fact referred to, and a continuance of the state after the fact. Thus in Phil 2:6, the phrase "who being (huparchon) in the form of God," implies His preexistent Deity, previous to His birth, and His continued Deity afterwards.
this can be brought out in John 1:1 in the word "WAS", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
WAS, WAST, WERE, and WERT. * Note: When not part of another verb, or phrase, these translate eimi, "to be", or the following. (a) ginomai, "to become". ( B) huparcho, "to exist," especially when referring to an already existing condition.
this definition of beget, begotten, bring forth, or born, applies only if one have a biological mother, and father to conceive in order to come into a NATURAL, or CARNAL existence. and this existence is from natural sources of flesh and blood. but our Lord, Jesus the Christ flesh was not conceive of a biological source. his flesh and blood was "made" by the Holy Spirit, and was Generated, or "BORN", of a woman. hence we have the Son of God/Son of the Spirit, spirit, flesh and blood, (a man). being in the likeness. Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law. here the term, or word is G1096 γίνομαι ginomai, "MADE".
G1096 γίνομαι ginomai (ghin'-om-ai) v.
1. to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
2. (reflexively) to become (come into being)
{used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.)}
[a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb]
KJV: arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought
The KJV can translate the word made as Be found, as in Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". "being found in the "fashion as a man". question, what was "as a man"?. the fashion, and what do the word fashion means, G4976 σχῆμα schema (skhay`-mah) n.
1. a figure (as a mode or circumstance)
2. (by implication) external condition
[from the alternate of G2192]
KJV: fashion
Root(s): G2192
the root word is G2192 ἔχω echo (ekh'-o) (including an alternate form scheo skheh'-o; (used in certain tenses only)) v.
1. to hold (such as possession, ability, contiuity, relation, or condition)
our bodies we possess in the world, or nature. now the question is, do we maintain them as vessel of righteousness, or vessel of unrighteousness. but thats another topic. lets continue.
this Child, this flesh and blood was born, or sprang out of Judah, Hebrews 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood". important to note, this child sprang "out" of Judah, and not sprang "from" Judah. Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". our Lord was from heaven, and in the womb of the woman this conception generate blood in this conceive child, he was born, or sprang forth, and grew, and wax strong. our Lord was just like the first Adam, without an earthly, mother, or father. but he was "made" by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, for everything was made by the Spirit. but I thought, according to John's gospel, everything was MADE by him. YES, the Word, Jesus the Christ, that which became flesh. the EXPRESS IMAGE, of the true invisible, eternal, immortal Spirit. the HOLY SPIRIT. who "WAS". with the Spirit in the beginning, "THE WISDOM", of the SPIRIT. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". here the word God, I use as "Spirit". there are two powers of the Spirit, G1411, dunamis, (ABILITY), and ,G1849, exousia, (AUTHORITY). this exousia one will see in the Son. (as a side note: this is how I know that John the Baptist, and our Lord Jesus the Christ are the two witness, of Revelation 11). for they bot had, G1849, exousia, (AUTHORITY).
now the "Son", which we know as the inner man, "the Son of man", so named of the Natural birth of flesh he was in, he is not born, as in according to the flesh. this birth is according to the Spirit. in our Lord case, the NEW MAN. he is not re-generated, like us. the word for this birth HERE is, "OFFSPRING".
G1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os) n.
1. kin
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096
there he is, the "diversity.
take note G1080 γεννάω gennao (ghen-nah'-o) v. is a birth cause "to be", according to the nature of the flesh & blood, (Carnal)
G1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os) n. is a birth, cause "to become". either, abstract or concrete. specifying the KIND, or type of OFFSPRING. but it is identified as a CLASS, or GROUP, distinguished by a common character or nature in short a " Diversity".
what is "a" Diversity, or the Diversities of the Holy Spirit/God?. a diversity is simply an EXPRESSION of the Source in "ANOTHER", or the "SHARE" Form of the same source. be it Spiritual (spirit), or Natural, (carnal). a Diversity, or the Diversities of the Holy Spirit is an offspring, in the same class, group, or sort which is a (nature) unto the source itself. when we say "ANOTHER", we means of the SAME nature, or Kind, or Class, of Group, be it Spiritual, or Carnal.
the term "ANOTHER". according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
G243, "allos" and G2087 "heteros" both these words have a difference in meaning in "ANOTHER". which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort, (sort here means NATURE);" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort. examples, " Christ promised to send "another Comforter" (allos, "another like Himself," not heteros), John 14:16. Paul says "I See a different ( "another") law," heteros", a law different from that of the spirit of life (not allos, "a law of the same sort"), Rom 7:23. Jesus the Christ is the Spirit (SHARED) NATURE in Flesh and Blood.
question how do a diversity come into creation, or have BEING, or as we say existence?, by birth, either carnally, according to the flesh. and or Spiritually according to the Spirit. (a). carnally, according to the flesh, G1081 gennema, which means "to beget", to cause to be ("gen"-erate). denotes "the offspring of men and animals". (reflexively) to become (come into being). to be a partaker of flesh and blood. ( B). according to the Spirit. G1085, genos (akin to ginomai, "to become"). it denotes "an offspring", a race, family, NOT TO BECOME INTO EXISTENCE IN CREATION AS IN NATURAL BIRTH, but to become as or like the source, which means a "SHARE" of the source, or one having a "NEW EXISTENCE". as in Christ Jesus, having "ANOTHER" NATURE, (flesh and blood) but of the same SPIRITUAL SOURCE, according to the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. as in G1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os), he christ, meaning being THE ONLY share in spirit, and in mind. for this new mind that was shape in righteousness. (see again Isaiah 50:4 & 5), which is the so-called missing years of Jesus. a Son is simply the same person who have the same #1. Nature, be it carnal, or Spiritual. and #2. who have the same character, or who have the same characteristics, who have the same behavior, or who have the same ways as the root or the source person who it sprang from. but a diversified offspring is one who have the G1081 gennema beginning, with the G1085, genos ending of God. Jesus beginning was Spirit in nature, as well as his ending, the Spiritual character HOLY, as he is called the HOLY ONE. (hence the beginning and the ending. beginning in one nature, and ending, WITH another new nature). sound just like John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with God. yes, in nature, being equal. but now have another nature according to the flesh. scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". this word "form", is the greek word,
FORM: G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fay') n.
1. shape
2. (figuratively) nature
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
what do the ROOT of this word mean?.
G3313 μέρος meros (mer'-os) n.
1. a division or share
THERE HE IS, not are in this case. THE "SHARE", the Lord Jesus the Christ, is the diversity or the "ONLY" BEGOTTEN" of the Spirit "NATURE" meaning the same, but diversified. and he "took part", in our NATURE, meaning the SAME ONE Spirit, diversified, in "ANOTHER" FORM. hence Flesh and blood. so this share, this diversity "became" something, "a man". a Manifestation of the Spirit. supportive scripture, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". that which was invisible was "MADE" visible by the flesh. so to be born again Spiritually is to have a change of mind. is this scriptural, yes, Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". HOLD IT. the apostle Paul have just told us that there are two transformation. 1. of the body, which we witness of our Lord Jesus the Christ, when he transformed physically on the mount of transfiguration. this is the Greek word G3339, metamorphoo, which means to change into another form" (meta, implying change, and morphe, "form"). and he transform his mind by being taught the word of God, the Spirit. Now, Now we can understand clearly why Nicodemus asked, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?". the answer to that question, our Lord Jesus gives clearly. the birth he was talking about was not a natural birth, according to the flesh. but the renewing of our minds. being transform in character, and moral characteristics, resulting in a new behavior, or walk in life. meaning being "HOLY", scripture 1 Peter 1:15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy". and when you receive the spirit of of God, the Holy Spirit you become, "regenerated", or born (G1096 γίνομαι "ginomai") again, in the newness of mind, and life. simply put, what do a new covenant mean" a renewing of our behavior with the true Spirit.
to do what is, as the apostle Paul said, "therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service". hence, we become "SONS". scripture, Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". supportive scripture, John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name". this is what a "son" is. not according to the flesh, (son), but according to the Spirit, the characteristics of the Spirit, the manifestion of Holiness, "Holy". from which we get the term, "HOLY SPIRIT". meaning God the Spirit, his character is "HOLY". but until the redemption (change) of this corruptible body, (the flesh), we're subject to this creation. that why we must be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". now we can clearly see that our Lord Jesus was teaching Nicodemus, "Diversity", according to the Spirit. That's why our Lords and Saviour Jesus the Christ is the "Son"........ of God according to the FLESH. for his flesh was G1081, gennema, begotten "of" God. and the "Son" of man According to the SPIRIT. because his thoughts, his ways, his character, and his moral characteristics was G1085, genos, begotten "of" God, because God manifested his will, his ways, his thoughts, his mind in Christ. sa one say the plan, so the scripture is clear, "let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus. how was God manifested?. by doing his own will, in action, (FAITH).
how do one become a son of God?, not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. for if ye walk after the flesh, (meaning a lifestyle) ye will die. but after the Spirit ye will live. being born again, from above. not from your mother's womb again, but by the word of God, the Holy Spirit. is not Jesus the Christ the word, (see John 1:1). our Lord have just told us who he is, GOD, the Holy Spirit in flesh, scripture, John 6:48 "I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". here our Lord Jesus have just told us again who he is, verse 48, "I am", that's good enough right there, "I AM THAT I AM". but after that identification, he makes it plain. "that bread of life". scripture, Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God". and Matthews makes its crystal clear. Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God". did not our Lord said, John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life". question, who mouth did this proceed from?. you make the call. once again Jesus have told us who he is, GOD, the Holy Spirit in flesh. and 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". again the "Word" is a title held by our Lord Jesus, (God/Spirit in Flesh). so we plainly can see that "Father", "Word", and "Holy Spirit", are titles of the SAME PERSON, just as the prophet, Isaiah, by God said, (see Isaiah 9:6). now getting to "HIS" function, or as the scriptures states, HIS "OPERATIONS". scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all". THERE IT IS, THE "SAME" GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL. that have diversities of operations. that God, as our Lord said in, John 6:48 "I am that bread of life". yes that God is the that "Lord", and that Lord is, or have, three dispensation to his work. 1st. dispensation, "Spirit", Creator, and Maker, hence (FATHER) Genesis 1:1. 2nd. dispensation "Spirit" in Flesh and Blood, Redeemer, and Saviour, hence (SON) John 1:1. 3rd. dispensation, "Spirit" in Glorified Flesh, no blood, Mediator, and Comforter, hence (HOLY SPIRIT), FULLY REVEALED Revelation 1:1. lets prove this full revealing out.
in Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". when one read this passage, it seem like its two person involved, correct. and in the preface at verse 4 this, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood".
when one read these passage, it seem like its three person involved, correct, well wrong. lets look a little closer.
according to most trinitarians
1. verse 4a. "and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come". they say this is the Father.
2. verse 4b. "and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne". surely this must be the HOLY SPIRIT.
3. verse 5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood". no doubt, or no brainier, this is the Son, correct. well lets really see.
The connecting "Key". the Alpha and Omega
#1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".
so the "Almighty" is the Alpha and Omega, correct?. and he is the "which is, and which was, and which is to come" the "Almighty". this is the Father, right.
#2. Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".
most trinitarians would say, surely said this is the "Son", because he who died and rose is the Son, right?. go to Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God". here the almighty said that he is the First and the Last. and right here in Revelation proves it out. who feet did John fall at?. go back to verses 10 & 11. Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea". Hmmmmmmm seems like the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega, and the Alpha and Omega is the SAME Lord in Revelation 1:8 who is the "Almighty".
#3. what about the him which is, and which was, and which is to come?. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned". so he which is, and which was, and which is to come is the
"Lord", and the Lord is the Almighty in Revelation 1:8., so the which is, and which was, and which is to come is also which is the First and the
Last in 1:17 & 19. THE SAME PERSON. and the last scripture that put the icing on the cake. Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. so the titles Father, Son, and Word, is the Holy Spirit, which is the same Person, not persons.
the conclusion, the Spirit that moved over the waters, and made everything is the manifestation of the man we know as Jesus the Christ, who is Lord, and he is God Manifested in Flesh, GLORIFIED.
I'm still going over your post.
Love and peace
101G.