101G said:
2 MTPockets, GINOLJC
I'm merely trying to comprehend the so-called-three-persons of the Godhead; how these function and manifest themselves.
lets take this one step at a time, There is only One person in the Godhead. you have the thoughts that there are three person. but think about this, if you say Father, and Holy Spirit. think that two, right. but understand, as you say you're a nuts and bolts person. by legal definition, the one who conceives a child is technically the Father, Right. well now, that leaves two instead of three. for the title "Father", is the Holy Spirit. supportive scripture. Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". now from SCRIPTURE, and technical understanding, there are only two person now. so the three person is not there.
this prove without a doubt that there is no trinity.
that's the nuts and bolts. understand this?. if so, we will move on to the title "Son" and "Father".
Hi '101G'
Ummm, you wrote: "There is only One person in the Godhead. you have the thoughts that there are three person".
I need to immediately clarify this with you:
The languages of men have severe limitations and disadvantages. There isn't always a ready vocabulary to express the things which are invisible. Therefore, we are always having to wrestle with words and phrases to appropriately explain and describe the world of the spirits, (aka: kingdom of heaven).
I absolutely do not perceive God as being 'three persons'. Our God is singularly ONE. He is neither multiple persons nor as having multiple personalities.
Our God does not have multiple faces; neither multiple personalities. He is not a schizophrenic God. He is ONE. Not three persons ... not even three persons acting as one as so many of our fellow-Christians are frantic to parrot to us.
God is one person possessing a singular personality.
I've become increasingly weary of those who insist that I must mindlessly repeat the ancestral trinity formula which has been offered by their centuries old religious suspects. I refuse to subscribe to an unscriptural thought-world which dictates that the Holy Spirit, along with the Son and Father are co-equal, or One God in Three Persons, sharing a single Divine essence or being; one God, revealed in three persons.
The ancestral parrots we are hearing today are all having to admit that the word 'trinity' is not found anywhere in the Bible.
When it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, hardly anyone seems to have an issue with the fact that the origin of the doctrine was derived from the musings of pious Catholic monks and an egotistical King Constantine who were frantically consumed about concealing their spiritual emptiness.
That being said, the ideas behind the so-called 'trinity' doctrine are clearly an invention of the human mind; the result of religious conclaves which occurred nearly three centuries after the resurrection of Jesus. It all goes to show that this popular saying remains very true in our day: a lie gets around the world twice before truth gets it's boots on.
We have a living God Who continues to speak above the ravenous noise and nuisance of our religious heritage and traditions which "beguile you with enticing words".
In this day, many Christians are beginning to know more about the mystery of God which remained hidden from those who invented the trinity doctrines from behind the veiled darkness of 325AD.
Most assuredly it now can be half-seriously said, "Amen! Amen! I say unto you: Many are taught, but few are learning!"
And, so it is that today I comfortably recall the verse: "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes".
In addition, there seems to be significant confusion among Christians concerning the origin of Jesus. Even the moreso concerning the purpose of His ministry; both during His earthly life and also during His present-day resurrected life.
Some even mistakenly claim that Jesus pre-existed (before eternity began) as a 'person' in the invisible world along side God Himself. This error is made all the more grievous with those wrongly claiming that the 'Word' is the 'person' of Jesus.
There are only three designations which can be biblically said about man: slave, child and son. The term "son" only applies to a human being; never is it attached to the being of God Himself.
There was from eternity the Word of God. It resided as a hidden thought within God. In the fullness of time, this Word became spoken; the consequence of which created the representative of the 'last man'.
The apostle John said: "The Word (God's thoughts and promises hidden within Himself from the beginning) became flesh (were revealed and appeared in or as a man) among us, and we have seen the glory thereof, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth".
The first man (Adam) was a 'living being'.
The 'last' man on the earth (Son / Sons of God) is a 'life-giving spirit'.
The Word of God occupies a central position throughout the Scriptures. The Word is the creative mind of God; just like the "Wisdom" is related to the same. The Greek word for "word" is Logos. This word has many, however, closely inter-related meanings, such as speech, calculation, norm, reason, mind, word, which all have to do with the creative power of God. Both the 'Word' and 'Wisdom' are presented as independent personalities. Even the Spirit of God is occasionally said to be the Spirit of Jesus.
Nevertheless, our Bibles do not say that the Word was Jesus. It merely states that the Word was always in and with God and remained consistently as one whole with Him. This Word remained as thought (in an embryonic state) in and with God from eternity past.
The Word of God contained all of God's eternal plans and intents. God never wavered nor hesitated from His Word.. From this Word which remained hidden in the inner-most depths of God was to come the true Man.
Most all those who erroneously claim that Jesus owned a pre-existence quote these particular verses: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". And verse 24, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world", (John 17:4,5 John 17:24). Also, 1Pet 1:20: "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".
Who is Jesus?
Jesus was simply a man as any other man.
The exception being that He was conceived by the Word of God.
What is meant by that?
The thoughts and intents of God are expressed/spoken by His word(s) which become a creative force. The immense/incalculable power behind His Word impregnated Mary and this conceived Jesus.
In a sense, human beings too have what is known as a 'creative tongue' but this is presently manifested to a much lower degree. Our words too are a creative force which, for instance, can build or destroy, unify or divide and, similar to God Himself, bring into existence those things which are not.
When the Bible seems to imply that Jesus was existent before the foundations of the world, it means to say that Jesus existed in the heart of God from the very beginnings. The man Jesus existed as the Word (intent/purpose) of God from eternity past and this became manifested (visible) on the earth through the immense creative power inherent in His Word. God's intents and purposes were spoken and this eternal Word of God penetrated the visible world which such an incredible creative force that they surpassed all the earthly restraints and conceived what was intended.
Jesus glorified the Father, when He was on earth. He brought the work that the Father had commanded Him to it's desired consummation. Obviously, Jesus knew whereof he spoke when He in His prayer to the Father spoke about "the glory which I had with thee before the world was". Jesus knew these things because he knew the heart of His Father through and through!
He was himself the first man who responded to this eternal purpose of the Father. All of us born-again Christians are also invited to respond towards the same purposes and intents of God for our own lives.
The supposed pre-existence of Jesus can only be correctly perceived as having dwelled as 'Word' in the mind and heart of God from eternity past. The person of Jesus did not have a prior existence outside of the Word (thoughts) of God until the Word was spoken and behaved as 'seed' in Mary. Until the events, "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth", Jesus existed only in the fathomless heart of God. Jesus (as a Son of God) formed a portion of the Word ('logos') which resided within the deepest depths of God's heart and being.
In the fullness of time, this embyronic Word ('logos') was first revealed in/as flesh at Bethlehem and now continues being revealed in countless "new creatures" (known as the Sons of God of the New Creation) since that splendid day at Bethlehem.
We need to be reminded that God's eternal plan and purpose seeks to have Him become "everything to everyone".
At the very beginning, it is said that God said that it was not good that man Adam) should be alone. This is a reflection of the inner desire of God about Himself. God's revelation from the very start is that He is only Spirit and that He has an intense yearning for a "body" to dwell. Therein lies the essential reason for the creation of man. Just as Adam said of Eve, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh", God is longing to say of His wife, "These are now spirit of my spirit".
As such, God's yearning intent is to enter into a profound unity with his sons and daughters. God desires to marry His New Creation ... the two becoming one spirit, soul and body with Him.
This is precisely the unity that the Heavenly Father enjoyed with His first Son, Jesus. The two are one in 'spirit'. They share the identical purposes and intents. (Similar to a man and wife behaving as one in the flesh)
Yes, it can be truthfully stated that Jesus was and is equal with God; meaning that Jesus was the total fulfillment of the spirit of the Father. Jesus knew the intents and essence of His Father through and through.
At the beginning of His ministry on earth, Jesus is baptized in Holy Spirit by God; anointed by the Spirit of God to be the Christ. A connection of hearts comes into being between God and Jesus. The Son puts on the strength of the Father. He is being prepared and trained to function as Christ and Lord and begins to realize the plan of God with man in that position and capacity. However, there remained certain limitations during Jesus' life on earth. For instance, when Jesus preaches on the shore of the lake of Galilee, He cannot be in Jerusalem at the same time. Jesus reaches many people, sometimes thousands of men, women and children at once, however even for Him it is impossible to accomplish the work of God in all people over the entire earth.
With His ascension, the Father covers the Son in such a manner with the Spirit of God that Jesus can work with it like Yahweh Himself. With this, Jesus attains the shape/attributes of God; He may, as glorified man appear in the spiritual body of God and reveal Himself by this Holy Spirit. That which was previously not possible for Jesus, now becomes possible to the glorified and crowned Jesus. Being in the Spirit of God, He can now uphold all things by the word of His power, (Heb 1:3). Only in and by the Spirit of God is it possible for Him to be the head of the church, to live in the hearts of people and to complete the work of God in their lives. By the Spirit of the Lord, Jesus can now be omnipresent and accomplish His divine work in the hearts of all people. He can now, just like God, encompass the heaven and the earth. He is actually capable of ( in preparation of the fullness of times) gather all things that exists in heaven and on earth under one head: Christ (Eph 1:10). In this regard Jesus says: "However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it to you", (John 16:13-15).
Therefore, it is not surprising that the Spirit of God is sometimes also called 'the Spirit of Jesus' or 'the Spirit of Christ' in the New Testament, (Acts 16:7, Rom.8:9, 1Pe.1:11). These names do not indicate Jesus' own spiritual body, but the person that is presently working with God's Spirit: Jesus Christ. While the anointing to the Christ connected Jesus as Son to the heart of the Father, the exaltation as Christ brought Him to the level of the Father. Even though Jesus is clothed with this Spirit, He does not see this Spirit as His own and this explains why Jesus spoke several times of the Comforter and the Spirit of truth in the third person. He realizes the enormous wealth and possibilities that God has given in His hands and remains aware of the dependence on the Father that comes with it.
At the acension of Jesus, God begins to live in Jesus in a most exalted way. In the Kingdom of God a new situation comes into existence with limitless possibilities for the glorified Jesus in the continuing execution of God's plan. Here we are reminded of 2Cor 3:18, "Now the Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit". Jesus is a glorified man in the Spirit and figure of God. After His being, Jesus remains completely human. He is the true man of God, the Son of man in His glory and power, prepared with all godly possibilities. Therefore, while it's improper to speak about the 'divinity' of Jesus, it is most proper and deserving to speak about the fullness of the Godhead in Jesus, (Col 2:9).
This exaltation of Jesus is completely after God's will; for it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell, (Col 1:19). This is the present reality in the Kingdom of God: all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Jesus, (Col 2:9) and in Him all the wealth of God's being has a living form.
In this same way, God longs for a humanity which functions as one great, harmonious and majestic body; a church which functions as 'partner of God' for all eternity and which lives with Him as 'God's wife'.
I mentioned earlier in this Thread that the human being is characterized by a body. I also mentioned that God created man as very similar to His own being. This not only applies for the natural body of man, but also for man's spiritual body.
As always is the case, the visible is connected to the invisible and is an image of it. Because man is created in the image of God, man is similar to God. Because God is a person with a spiritual body, man also has a spiritual body. Because God has a spiritual heart, man also has one. Man can speak, see, hear (in both the visible and invisible worlds) because God can also do this.
God is a spirit; a person/personality with a spiritual body by which He speaks, works, manifests and reveals Himself. So, just as the spiritual body of a man consists of his soul and spirit, the being of God, (the heart of God/God Himself), is covered in His Spirit, in the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the body of God in which the heart of God is hidden. In the same manner is the heart, the soul of man hidden in his spiritual body.
Now, concerning the Holy Spirit: we know that God is only Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not a person. Neither is the Holy Spirit a distinct and/or individual personality.
One could perhaps use the admittedly feeble image/parable of a jelly-fish to visualize the form of God.
Nonetheless, the being of God can be imagined as somewhat similar to that of the jelly-fish or other such gelatinous animals which are united/formed by having bodies lacking hard skeletal components.
Unlike a 'normal' fish, which retains its form when out of water, a jelly-fish requires the support provided by the aqueous environment.
Many species of Jelly-fish are transparent and this might lend some much needed reinforcement to the parable.
Using this image/parable of the Jelly Fish, we could say that the 'outer layer' is what we could name as the Holy Spirit ... namely, the immaterial/spiritual body of God. And, the inner layer is what we know as His being/personality.
In other words, the being of a spirit is covered in and surrounded by spirit.
It demands countless numbers of people to turn the thoughts of God into reality: God everything to everyone, or the formation of a spiritual temple of God in the spiritual world.
We know that God breathed the spirit of life into Adam. This spirit was similar to the Spirit of the Creator. God did not say: "Let us make one man in our image and after our likeness", but rather spoke in plural sense: 'them' The human spirit, is unable to attain full development in one person. This spirit is rich and varied to the extent that it requires countless creatures to manifest the riches of the human spirit. Adam may have been a gifted man, but he could not possibly have beheld or been a genius in everything that the human spirit contains and is capable of producing: music, technology, science, art, and not in the least place: the spiritual world. This is why God said: "Be fruitful and multiply."
Just as it requires billions of human beings to manifest the fullness of the human spirit, in the New Creation, the Last/Second Adam received the Holy Spirit besides His own human spirit and once again the re-Creator said: "Be fruitful and multiply."
So, it is that we marvel at how great must be the final number of humankind at the time and place when God will be everything to/in every one; meaning to say: that God will be able to fully express Himself in humanity.
Not a wonder that the Bible says that the entire creation is groaning to see the wonderfully splendid fullness of God revealed on the earth.
So it is too that the entirety of the Bible narrative can be summed up with this single observation: the entire New Creation is intended to be the body of God who is spirit.