The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:

There is the natural world in which lives with souls breathe to live. This is the world your mind focuses on. And there is the spiritual world in which eternal life dwells. The mind of Christ focuses on that world.





Oh No... here we go again with the realm of the spirit is the sky...

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See? I KNEW that you didn't know the difference! All four of these words have to do with the breath. The difference is found in 1 Corinthians 15:35-54:

1 Corinthians 15:35-54
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural (Greek: psuchikos) body; it is raised a spiritual (Greek: pneumatikos) body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psuchee); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma).
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: choikos = "soil-like"): the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "out of the sky").
48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the soil-like-one"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoi choikoi = "the soil-like-ones"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the one-from-above-the-sky"), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "the ones-from-above-the-sky").
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

However, don't make the mistake that verse 50 is contrasting the physical with the non-physical! For Yeshua` said,

Luke 24:33
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
KJV

Indeed, the whole story of this appearance of the Master is very telling! He does several things to show that He is in a PHYSICAL body!

Luke 24:33-47
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost).
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit (a ghost) hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
KJV

So, the point was that His glorified body WAS physical, but it was MUCH MORE than a normal, human body! It was NOT non-physical! He is no longer a mere human being; He is a SUPERHUMAN BEING! He doesn't just breathe to stay alive; He BLASTS to GIVE LIFE! And, THAT is the difference between "psuchikos" and "pneumatikos!" The "psuchikos" body must breathe to stay a live; the "pneumatikos" body BLASTS WIND TO GIVE LIFE! However, both are indeed physical! Otherwise, why create a physical city called the New Jerusalem? Why re-create the New Earth? NO! We are to look forward to a REAL, TANGIBLE, PHYSICAL reality without sin, not some "ethereal, fuzzy, nonphysical, other-dimensional reality," which is what most think of when they think of "heaven!" We are to both anticipate the REAL, PHYSICAL, BODILY RETURN of our Master Yeshua` the Messiah and His reign in a literal Kingdom on earth, and later the REAL, PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE NEW EARTH WITH ITS CAPITAL CITY, THE NEW JERUSALEM! We are NEVER told to anticipate "going to Heaven!" That's a myth from the Dark Ages!

By analogy, it's not the difference between carbon and carbon dioxide; it's the difference between graphite and DIAMOND!

Retrobyter said:

However, don't make the mistake that verse 50 is contrasting the physical with the non-physical! For Yeshua` said,

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I'm not. You're making the mistake that spiritual cannot be real, and assuming that the natural can be touched, whereas the spiritual cannot. Jesus didn't say he was spirit. He has a spiritual body, that can be touched and felt just like a natural body. But he doesn't have a natural body; it is a spiritual one. You are mistakenly equating physical with natural. The father is spirit, Jesus is a body.

Retrobyter said:

So, the point was that His glorified body WAS physical, but it was MUCH MORE than a normal, human body! It was NOT non-physical!

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Yes, his glorified body IS physical, but it is MUCH MORE than a natural human body. It is not natural; it is a supernatural, ie spiritual, body that can be touched and felt.

You do not recognize the difference between spirit and a spiritual body.

Hi Retrobyter,

As usual, I did enjoy your exposition, and I learned something, but I'm not sure how it furthers your case for 'all Israel' meaning all of Jacob's descendants - if that is what you do mean? Perhaps it would be useful (for those of us following this thread), to know if you are including all the generations of idolaters who were descended from Jacob, whom God destroyed by various methods in their own generations or the generation following?

The NT makes it quit clear it's not a birth right.

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Hi Rex,

I think that the word 'nation' has been mishandled by those who would like to forget that 'nation' refers to people who are 'born'.... usually in a certain place, and even more usually in respect of Israel's descendants, into a certain family.

Paul addresses this right at the start of his thesis in Romans 9, placing 'the adoption' right at the front of all the benefits pertaining to those who were his kinsmen in the flesh - Israelites. Everything listed after adoption, they had already enjoyed in a measure, but to become sons of God - born of God's Spirit - only became available to them through Christ's immense fulfilment of mountains of prophecy to Israel.

It seems to me that becoming 'born of God' has been lost to the terminology of believers trying to reach Israelites and Jews with the gospel, who have allowed themselves to be side-tracked into discussions about land and concerns about politics. Not that politics is not important. It is, and it is the fulfilment of longstanding prophecy, that Israel's politics have slowly drawn a greater and greater number of other nations to its concerns. 'Israel' of the flesh and the modern state of Israel, do not see the relationship between her disobedience to God and the political difficulties which she faces, or, the powers that are at work do see, and do intend to work towards the inevitability of the final conflagration.

Hopefully, some will call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and will join the remnant of those saved in previous generations.

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:

Hi Retrobyter,

As usual, I did enjoy your exposition, and I learned something, but I'm not sure how it furthers your case for 'all Israel' meaning all of Jacob's descendants - if that is what you do mean? Perhaps it would be useful (for those of us following this thread), to know if you are including all the generations of idolaters who were descended from Jacob, whom God destroyed by various methods in their own generations or the generation following?

...

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Sure. Happy to comply. What constitutes "all of Isra'el" are those who are OF Isra'el; that is, they are descendants of Isra'el, the MAN, first known as Ya`aqov (Jacob) before he was re-named, but... don't stop there:

Now, the nation Isra'el from the time of the Exodus to the time of the Captivity to Bavel (Babylon) DID have proselytes from other nations, such as Rut (Ruth) from Mo'av (Moab) and Rachav (Rahab) of the city-state Yericho (Jericho), both of whom were in Yeshua`s ancestry, I might add, and those from Giv`own (Gibeon), another city-state in the Promised Land. They were considered "part of Isra'el."

After the captives returned until the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., they likewise had many proselytes from other nations as well as Jewish and Isra'eli communities within other nations who made pilgrimages to Yerushalayim to keep the high holy days. That's why the followers of Yeshua` were given those other languages on Pentecost. It allowed all to hear the message of Yeshua` in their own language. These are likewise part of "all of Isra'el."

From the destruction of the Temple until today, there are also many Jewish and Isra'eli communities throughout the world. These are also part of "all of Isra'el."

HOWEVER, there were some who were labeled "sons of Belial," or "bneey beliya`al" which literally translates to "sons of worthlessness or wickedness." Sh'mu'el's (Samu'el's) mentor, the priest `Eliy's (Eli's) own sons were among these! These LOST their place among the children of Isra'el, because they were considered "outside of the congregation" of Isra'el, for many different reasons, AND THEY DIDN'T CARE! Basically, they were exiled from the community (or GOD exiled them permanently), and they were okay with that! These are NOT part of the children of Isra'el.

Those who declare themselves "atheists" today among the Jews may very well fall into this category.

ON THE OTHER HAND, some are just being dishonest and fooling themselves, knowing that God not only exists but that He is silent with them for a reason. They are simply disillusioned BECAUSE God has been silent with Isra'el so long! The Western Wall (once called the Wailing Wall) is RIDDLED with holes dug in the wall to contain the rolled-up, written prayers of the Isra'elis down through the years! These may yet turn when a REAL Messiah comes on the scene or when they are introduced to the TRUE Messiah Yeshua` before then! There are many such disillusioned people in Isra'el (and in other countries, including the USA) today. We are sent to them to show them Yeshua` (not the "Jesus Christ of the Gentiles," whom they fear because of the last 2000 years of history they have with His "followers," the "Christians").

The majority of the Jews are dutifully keeping their rituals and liturgies, every bit as religious as any good Catholic, and they wonder why God doesn't manifest Himself as He used to do. Many have NO IDEA who "Jesus Christ" really was, just as modern Christians have no idea who "Yeshua` haMashiach" really is! They may have heard the name "Jesus Christ" before, but they just know that name as the name of the Christian's God, someone who is completely foreign to ADONAI whom they claim to serve. When they hear the word "Christian," they only think that refers to the Roman Catholic Church with which they are most familiar, thanks to all the churches built within their Land. They know neither the history nor the connection, and that's to OUR blame! All of these, too, will answer the "wake-up call," when the Messiah returns, if they don't meet Him before then.

Those who claim to be Christians today MAY be included in "all of Isra'el," IF they are indeed within the Messiah, that is, adopted through Him into the commonwealth of Isra'el. We can indeed be grafted into Isra'el, but if so, we are not grafted into the "CHURCH"; we are grafted into ISRA'EL! That's significant, because often those who are members of one "church" (or "Church") or another THINK that's sufficient to get them into God's graces! (It's not.)

So, my point is that "ALL OF ISRA'EL" includes not only the living but also the dead who were disillusioned, unaware of Yeshua`, but still faithful to ADONAI, looking for the Messiah to come, because they are MISHPACHAH (FAMILY)! They may be "enemies" of those who call themselves "Christian," but they are still "beloved for the fathers' sakes" because God does not renig on His promises and won't allow Himself to be so accused! (Romans 11:28-29)

Hope this helps.

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your gracious reply.

I love the way you make excuses for Jacob's descendants, as if it might be our fault that they have been misled!

The majority of the Jews are dutifully keeping their rituals and liturgies, every bit as religious as any good Catholic, and they wonder why God doesn't manifest Himself as He used to do. Many have NO IDEA who "Jesus Christ" really was, just as modern Christians have no idea who "Yeshua` haMashiach" really is! They may have heard the name "Jesus Christ" before, but they just know that name as the name of the Christian's God, someone who is completely foreign to ADONAI whom they claim to serve.

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I fully accept that many calling themselves Christians do not have a live relationship with Messiah Jesus, but I know from the way God drew me to Himself, that my ignorance did not prevent Him from reaching out to me, and once He speaks to the extent that we 'hear' Him, He knows that we know that He is speaking to us.

Those Jews who are keeping their rituals, (who were taught by Rabbis who do know about Jesus Christ), are not devoid of the power to search for God for themselves, and many of them know Christians, and that we believe in the One who claimed to be their Messiah. There are Christians in Israel, and there are Jews converting to Christianity there in greater numbers than ever.

Those who claim to be Christians today MAY be included in "all of Isra'el," IF they are indeed within the Messiah, that is, adopted through Him into the commonwealth of Isra'el. We can indeed be grafted into Isra'el, but if so, we are not grafted into the "CHURCH"; we are grafted into ISRA'EL! That's significant, because often those who are members of one "church" (or "Church") or another THINK that's sufficient to get them into God's graces! (It's not.)

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Could I clarify this, please? 'IF they are indeed within the Messiah, that is, adopted through Him into the commonwealth of Isra'el.'

You are saying that Messiah is Israel. Those of us who have received the spirit of adoption - the adoption of sons - are now part of the commonwealth of Israel, which is Messiah. That's what the sentence in bold is referring to, I believe.

Which means that the succeeding sentence which says if we are in Israel we are not in the 'CHURCH', is incomprehensible, since the NT is full of references to the Church being His body made up of many members, Him being the chief cornerstone and the rest of us being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. It is a completely different picture, but it speaks of the same 'body' of people as 'Israel' the olive tree, or the true Vine. They are all one and the same organism, described in all these different ways, to cover its fulness and diversity.

So, my point is that "ALL OF ISRA'EL" includes not only the living but also the dead who were disillusioned, unaware of Yeshua`, but still faithful to ADONAI, looking for the Messiah to come, because they are MISHPACHAH (FAMILY)!

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You must know that this statement is not compatible with Paul's gospel. He states -

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and brings forth fruit, as it doth also in you,

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

These are confirmed by Paul's quotation of Isaiah, and his accusers in Acts 24:


Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Now I accept that the Jews who accused Paul may have been lying, but it doesn't rule out the truth that the gospel reached to everywhere, very fast.

I also accept that those who died under the law, are saved. The NT states this clearly. But how can you possibly claim, two thousand years after the New Covenant began, that Jews dying today will be saved? They have not been making blood sacrifices. There is an idea amongst some Jews that the Old Covenant is still in force, (which I disagree), for why would it be, since the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom, and the Lamb, slain?

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

Isn't the truth of Paul's gospel, and the reason for his yearning for his kinsmen's salvation, more like this.... ?

2 Corinthians 4: '... we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Are you seriously suggesting that God is going to accept Rabbinic law as their route to salvation?

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, doesn't say that. It says they are enemies, but God still LOVES them, for the sake of the fathers.

I have no argument with Paul's statement. But you are adding more than a little when you suggest that the kind of Judaism which succeeded Temple worship, is recognised by God. I'm sure God recognises the people, and answers their prayers, and honours their study of His word, but the sad reality is, it is dead religion. It cannot save them.

Paul states unmistakably: 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Hallelujah!!!

God does not renig on His promises and won't allow Himself to be so accused!

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Who is accusing God of reneging on His promises? Not me!

He made conditions for Israel to be saved. He is not going to renege on His conditions, either, brother.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, upon whom my name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Shalom (New Covenant style)

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:

dragonfly, on 09 Apr 2013 - 15:54, said:
Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your gracious reply.

I love the way you make excuses for Jacob's descendants, as if it might be our fault that they have been misled!

I fully accept that many calling themselves Christians do not have a live relationship with Messiah Jesus, but I know from the way God drew me to Himself, that my ignorance did not prevent Him from reaching out to me, and once He speaks to the extent that we 'hear' Him, He knows that we know that He is speaking to us.

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Please understand: I am not making excuses for Ya`aqov's descendants. They are reaping the results of their rejection of the Messiah Yeshua` today, and have been for almost 2000 years! HOWEVER, this does NOT negate what Paul wrote in Romans 11.

dragonfly said:

dragonfly, on 09 Apr 2013 - 15:54, said:
Those Jews who are keeping their rituals, (who were taught by Rabbis who do know about Jesus Christ), are not devoid of the power to seek for God for themselves, and many of them know Christians, and that we believe in the One who claimed to be their Messiah. There are Christians in Israel, and there are Jews converting to Christianity there in greater numbers than ever.

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True. Their rituals and liturgies have no more saving power than those of the Catholic Church! And, even better than Christians in Isra'el, there are Messianic JEWS in Isra'el, the difference being that these are Jews who have NOT given up their heritage for a "foreigner's religion." The Messianic Jews are growing by leaps and bounds as their eyes are being opened back up to their Messiah Yeshua`! So much so, in fact, that the Orthodox Jews are trying desperately to rid the nation of their presence, feeling threatened by their growth in numbers. They are not being "converted"; they are seeing Yeshua` in the rituals that they've always kept! Those rituals and liturgies are beginning to take on NEW LIFE, as they awaken to the reasons for the rituals and liturgies!

dragonfly said:

dragonfly, on 09 Apr 2013 - 15:54, said:
Could I clarify this, please? 'IF they are indeed within the Messiah, that is, adopted through Him into the commonwealth of Isra'el.'

You are saying that Messiah is Israel. Those of us who have received the spirit of adoption - the adoption of sons - are now part of the commonwealth of Israel, which is Messiah. That's what the sentence in bold is referring to, I believe.

Which means that the succeeding sentence which says if we are in Israel we are not in the 'CHURCH', is incomprehensible, since the NT is full of references to the Church being His body made up of many members, Him being the chief cornerstone and the rest of us being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. It is a completely different picture, but it speaks of the same 'body' of people as 'Israel' the olive tree, or the true Vine. They are all one and the same organism, described in all these different ways, to cover its fulness and diversity.

You must know that this statement is not compatible with Paul's gospel. He states -

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and brings forth fruit, as it doth also in you,

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

These are confirmed by Paul's quotation of Isaiah, and his accusers in Acts 24:


Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Now I accept that the Jews who accused Paul may have been lying, but it doesn't rule out the truth that the gospel reached to everywhere, very fast.

I also accept that those who died under the law, are saved. The NT states this clearly. But how can you possibly claim, two thousand years after the New Covenant began, that Jews dying today will be saved? They have not been making blood sacrifices. There is an idea amongst some Jews that the Old Covenant is still in force, (which I disagree), for why would it be, since the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom, and the Lamb, slain?

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.

Isn't the truth of Paul's gospel, and the reason for his yearning for his kinsmen's salvation, more like this.... ?

2 Corinthians 4: '... we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Are you seriously suggesting that God is going to accept Rabbinic law as their route to salvation?

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, doesn't say that. It says they are enemies, but God still LOVES them, for the sake of the fathers.

I have no argument with Paul's statement. But you are adding more than a little when you suggest that the kind of Judaism which succeeded Temple worship, is recognised by God. I'm sure God recognises the people, and answers their prayers, and honours their study of His word, but the sad reality is, it is dead religion. It cannot save them.

Paul states unmistakably: 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Hallelujah!!!

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AH! HERE is the rub. We have a slight communication problem that desperately needs repair: "Salvation" is the WRONG WORD for what you are talking about!

First, no, technically I'm not saying that "Yeshua` is Isra'el"; I'm saying that Yeshua` is the KING-APPARENT to Isra'el! As such, He is the HEIR of the throne of Daviyd haMelekh (King David)! He is the "Son of David!" HIS Isra'el is the true Isra'el, not just the Jewish state currently within the Land of Isra'el today! However, you're right that we, as His future subjects, ARE already a part of His Kingdom-to-be.

Now, regarding the entity known as the "Church," I have a few things to say: There is NO SUCH THING as a "Universal Church," despite what the Catholics advocate. The problem, as I see it, is that so many Protestants have their roots in the Roman Catholic Church, that the RCC's teachings have been adopted without really questioning whether the teachings are right or wrong, when their denomination came out of the RCC. The word "Catholic" MEANS "Universal" and it has ALWAYS been the RCC's position that there IS a "Universal Church" or "Catholic Church" to which anyone who wants to be right with God must belong! Thus, that teaching in a "UNIVERSAL" Church is to what I object. Many Protestant denominations continue to teach that "Universal Church" concept and have it both in their bylaws and in their statements of faith. Those who maintain the concept of confirmation rites teach it to their children who participate in the Catechism classes (or whatever they may call such church teaching classes for children). The idea of a "universal body of Christ" stems from that "Universal Church" teaching.

If you will investigate it closely, the "body" analogy was created for a LOCAL church, specifically the church at Corinth! It was to teach a unity within that congregation that could be a source of support and mutual help for its individuals. It was NEVER supposed to be interpreted as a "UNIVERSAL body of Christ!" As I've said before, it's kinda hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! However, if these "members" are all of the SAME CONGREGATION, it suddenly makes sense that they should "bear one another's burdens!"

The proof of all this is to simply note that some of the epistles begin with references to specific churches, as does Revelation: "to the church of God in Corinth," "unto the churches of Galatia," "to the church of the Thessalonians," "to the seven churches which are in Asia," "unto the angel of the church of Ephesus," "unto the angel of the church in Smyrna," "unto the angel of the church in Pergamos," "unto the angel of the church in Thyatira," "unto the angel of the church in Sardis," "unto the angel of the church in Philadelphia," and "unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans." In the Scriptures, it was "churches" PLURAL, and they were congregations at specific cities and towns, not just one church!

Now, I'm not advocating disunity (as some might think). Unity in the church is a good thing; however, unity between CHURCHES needs to be carefully considered. One should not give up important distinctions that are key to the justification of individuals by God for the sake of ecumenism, no matter HOW such "unity" may suffer! What one church may believe about how one is justified by God is often FUNDAMENTALLY different than what another church may believe! These differences should NOT be compromised! For instance, there is a major difference between believing in faith only for justification and believing in faith PLUS being baptized or believing in faith AND joining a particular church!

Now, I understand that "church" is one of those special words to which some believe the Scripture that says, "touch not the LORD'S anointed," refers, and touching the "sacred heifer" called the "church" can be highly "offensive to" (i.e., "hurting the feelings of") someone, but NOTHING should be above questioning when it comes to such important matters.

Second, as I've briefly touched above, "salvation" is the wrong word when it comes to God's justification of an individual. From the point of view of Scripture, the right word is "justification," more specifically, "justification by God," to distinguish it from "self-justification." The terms "salvation," "save," "saved," "saves," and "saving," are references to PROPHETIC passages that speak of the NATIONAL RESCUE of the nation Isra'el! You mentioned Romans 10:18 above. However, this is within the context of that portion of Scripture frequently called the "Romans Road" that is used to introduce an individual convicted by the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) to the justification by God. I contend that this passage is not talking about personal justification but is talking about national rescue! Romans 10:13 is key:

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

This verse is quoted from Joel 2:32. Here it is in its context:

Joel 2:30-3:2
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV

And Paul was NOT taking this one verse out of context to use it as a springboard, a diving board, into the concept of personal justification! Now, I understand that this will be a HUGE PARADIGM SHIFT for many Christians to understand, but Romans 10 is NOT primarily talking about personal justification! Paul is talking about the RESCUE of his people, ISRA'EL! (The better place to take a person for personal justification by God is 2 Corinthians 5:11-21.) And, for Isra'el, personal justification is a single plank in the platform of national rescue! It is NOT the central theme! Take a look at the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-40
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord (no more need to witness): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Where are the conditions?)
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If (a BIG "if!") those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If (another BIG "if!") heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, (then) I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city (Jerusalem) shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
KJV

Where are the "conditions" in the New Covenant? They're NOT THERE!

dragonfly said:

dragonfly, on 09 Apr 2013 - 15:54, said:

Who is accusing God of reneging on His promises? Not me!

He made conditions for Israel to be saved. He is not going to renege on His conditions, either, brother.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, upon whom my name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


Shalom (New Covenant style)

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Interesting that you would quote a condition from the OLD Covenant! Always be sure to check the surrounding context of a verse you quote.

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you, again, for your full reply.

Of course I was aware I was choosing a verse from the Old Covenant era, but it is always relevant to the whole house of Jacob outside of Christ.

I am aware of the idea that there was 'a church' in each location, but surely they must be joined through the Spirit as Paul labours in 1 Corinthians 10 and 12, and elsewhere, particularly in his sweeping inclusions in Ephesians 4, for instance. Then there is Ephesians 1 -


19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


Surely this is the 'universal' church? Most of us know that 'catholic' means 'universal', but it doesn't prevent us from 'seeing' that the church down the ages spans both time and generations of Christians until this present time, and for as long as time shall last, and then some.

Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you, again, for your full reply.

Of course I was aware I was choosing a verse from the Old Covenant era, but it is always relevant to the whole house of Jacob outside of Christ.

I am aware of the idea that there was 'a church' in each location, but surely they must be joined through the Spirit as Paul labours in 1 Corinthians 10 and 12, and elsewhere, particularly in his sweeping inclusions in Ephesians 4, for instance. Then there is Ephesians 1 -


19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


Surely this is the 'universal' church? Most of us know that 'catholic' means 'universal', but it doesn't prevent us from 'seeing' that the church down the ages spans both time and generations of Christians until this present time, and for as long as time shall last, and then some.

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First, I feel I need to thank you, too, for a good, honest conversation. It's so refreshing just being able to TALK and share our thoughts without being judged or put down by others who feel they're somehow more intelligent. I love the LORD and I love His people, but sometimes I don't particularly love the way some of His people act! I just have to remember to separate the person from the action.

As far as a "universal church," I don't think we'll fully have such a thing until the Lord Yeshua` returns and GATHERS us all together. And, in Ephesians 1:23, one must ask what and what are the "all in all?" All we have are two indefinite pronouns, "all." However, "all" is typically an adjective, describing something else. What do the "all's" represent here? Some think the first describes the "things," i.e., "all things," and that the second "all" describes the people, "all people." Therefore, the "all in all" would be "all things in all people." But, does Yeshua` fill the things or does He fill the PEOPLE? I believe the first "all" describes the "people," as "all people," and the second "all" describes the "churches," as "all churches!" Therefore, the "all in all" would be "all people in all churches!"

When the Lord Yeshua` sends His messengers to the four winds and gathers all of us together, THEN we'll be a "universal gathering," a "universal church." You can go two ways with the word "church":

First, the word was used to translate the Greek word "ekkleesia," which stems from the Greek prefix "ek" meaning "out of," and the Greek noun "kaleoo" meaning "to call." Thus as a combined participle, it means a "calling out of..." and was used for any meeting. As you probably already know, it was used for the "town meeting" (or "mob") in Ephesus in Acts 19:32, 39, and 41 and was translated there as "assembly" in the KJV.

However, it was also used for the whole congregation of the children of Isra'el around the base of Mount Sinai (Sina) in Acts 7:38. There it is translated as "church" in the phrase "the church in the wilderness" in the KJV. In this passage, it's clear to most people that this is not talking about a NT church, but I wonder if other occurrences of the word, often thought to mean a NT church, shouldn't also be thought of as being the "whole congregation of the children of Isra'el" or at least, a portion of the whole congregation of the children of Isra'el, such as those gathered at a local synagogue in a particular city or town.

Second, the English word "church" itself comes through several languages from the Greek word "kuriokon," which means "of the Lord." Therefore, it is a SPECIFIC "called-out" meeting, a "called-out" meeting "of the Lord!"

Today, we tend to think of a difference between the children of Isra'el (bad) and a NT church (good) like they were divided decisively apart with a sharp knife. Almost like a disc with a completely white half and a completely black half, there is a dividing line that separates between the two halves. Some advocate such a completely dichotomous division based on whether a person is "born again" or not, and I lean toward that distinction; HOWEVER, I still think the line is "fuzzier" than that, especially when one factors in the dimension of time. For instance, a person may be "yet in the womb" with the "born again" analogy; not quite "born" yet, but definitely under the conviction of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit). How long is the "period of labor?" It is different lengths of time for different folks! Is that person a "child of God?" That's entirely up to God, isn't it? If some tragedy or catastrophe occurred during the "period of labor," would God protect him or her as one of His children? I would like to think He would, wouldn't you? So, if God is working "behind the scenes," convicting a person of sin and drawing that person to Himself, how do we know when a person is a "child of God" or not? We may NOT see it for a long period of time! That's why I try to treat every person, even the roughest biker in Hell's Angels, as a POTENTIAL child of God! We DON'T KNOW what God is doing in that person's life!

Now, extend that point of view. If we can do that for "the roughest biker in Hell's Angels," then why can't we do that for any of the children of Isra'el, even the most violent, militaristic, atheistic member of the Orthodox Jews? Again, we DON'T KNOW what God is doing "behind the scenes" in that person's life! Indeed, God may be using US as an influence in His overall plan for that person's life!

I feel that these are elements that must be factored into our understanding of Romans 11.

Rex said:

Romans 11: 20 says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Who are they? Paul says in verse 14, "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them whih are my flesh, and might save some of them."

Most of the Jews of Paul's time rejected Christ and they were broken off.

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Rex .... I took the above snip from your opening post and highlighted part of it in red. .... I am not here to bash you , but to prompt everybody to read Romans 11 again very carefully.

I highlighted some of Romans 11:23-24 below ..... to give the complete picture that broken branches are not necessarily permanent

........................................................................
23 And if they (Israel) do not persist in unbelief, they (Israel) will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you (Gentile Christians) were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, (Israel) the natural branches,(Israel) be grafted into their own olive tree !
........................................................................

Some day , some how , God grafts the broken branches of Israel back into the tree (as prophesied) .... it happens after their extended period of unbelief (also prophesied) ..... during the time the branch has been broken they are without forgiveness (in the christian sense) ..... so they have been punished and scattered (as prophesied) .... and after 1900 years of that they are now being regathered (as prophesied) .... and one day they will no longer persist in unbelief ... and be grafted back in.

The error has been made for 1900 years by Christians who "spiritualized Israel" into being the gentile christian church. ...... if not for that error we would not be having these controversial debates ..... Period.!

And we should carefully make note of the cautions to us in Romans 11 about thinking too highly of our gentile christian selves. .....See below....

....................................................................................
I am talking to you Gentiles. ..... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. .... You do not support the root, but the root supports you ..... Do not be arrogant, but tremble

For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. ....... Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: ..... Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
....................................................................................


If anyone here cannot see the stern warnings to the Gentiles not to chop down the Olive tree Israel ..... then God help us all.

We should be very thankful God will spare the natural branches (Israel)
We should be very thankful God will spare the grafted in branches (Gentile Christians)

That has been my point all along.

Amen

Shalom, Michael V Pardo.

Michael V Pardo said:

These arguments tend to be very interesting and I'll be the first to admit that I consider most doctrines that replace Israel with the church to be of a carnal and anti-semitic nature. The artificial distinctions are usually required to support some fanciful doctrine like the pre-trib rapture, but can just be the result of old fashioned racism, fear and prejudice. What I find to be more interesting is the way God, through His prophets has referred to the nation of Israel, sometimes, as Israel, sometimes as Jacob, once or twice as Jeshurun, and these are never random substitutions, but rather have deep significance with regard to the spiritual condition of His chosen people. You can't come up with a replacement doctrine without disregarding such things as "the song of Moses" from the book of Deuteronomy. I suppose that the Law is not frequently read by professing Christians. I once found my own Pastor to be unaware of some of the most significant references to the law, and the man was well versed in doctrine and generally familiar with redemptive scripture. I've had conversations with at least a few Jewish men, who have regularly attended their synagogues and listened throughout the year as the Torah was read and discussed, yet had no idea of what the song of Moses even refers to. Perhaps they call the passage something else, or perhaps they're just unwilling to hear what the scripture has said about them (or us).

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Good points. Many who call themselves "Christians" have never even HEARD of the fact that there were 613 commandments! They may "know" that there are ten commandments, but seldom does any one of them know all ten! And, "KEEP" them? Forget it! They will even make EXCUSES for why they no longer have to keep them! So, in effect, they don't even know what they think they no longer have to keep! They have FAILED to "remember the pit from which they were dug," if that's how they choose to look at those commandments.

Perhaps it would be a good thing to rehearse the Song of Moses or HaShiyraah Mosheh:


Exodus 15:1-19

15 1 Then Moshe and the people of Isra’el sang this song to Adonai:

“I will sing to Adonai, for he is highly exalted:
the horse and its rider he threw in the sea.

2 Yah is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.
This is my God: I will glorify him;
my father’s God: I will exalt him.
3 Adonai is a warrior;
Adonai is his name.

4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his army
he hurled into the sea.
His elite commanders
were drowned in the Sea of Suf.
5 The deep waters covered them;
they sank to the depths like a stone.

6 Your right hand, Adonai, is sublimely powerful;
your right hand, Adonai, shatters the foe.
7 By your great majesty you bring down your enemies;
you send out your wrath to consume them like stubble.

8 With a blast from your nostrils the waters piled up —
the waters stood up like a wall,
the depths of the sea became firm ground.
9 The enemy said, ‘I will pursue and overtake,
divide the spoil and gorge myself on them.
I will draw my sword; my hand will destroy them.’
10 You blew with your wind, the sea covered them,
they sank like lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?
Who is like you, sublime in holiness,
awesome in praises, working wonders?

12 You reached out with your right hand:
the earth swallowed them.
13 In your love, you led the people you redeemed;
in your strength, you guided them to your holy abode.

14 The peoples have heard, and they tremble;
anguish takes hold of those living in P’leshet;
15 then the chiefs of Edom are dismayed;
trepidation seizes the heads of Mo’av;
all those living in Kena‘an are melted away.
16 Terror and dread fall on them;
by the might of your arm they are still as stone
until your people pass over, Adonai,
till the people you purchased pass over.

17 You will bring them in and plant them
on the mountain which is your heritage,
the place, Adonai, that you made your abode,
the sanctuary, Adonai, which your hands established.

18 Adonai will reign forever and ever.

19 For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots
and with his cavalry into the sea,
but Adonai brought the sea waters back upon them,
while the people of Isra’el walked on dry land
in the midst of the sea!”
CJB

And, it probably wouldn't hurt to add Miryam's supplement:



Exodus 15:20-21

20 Also Miryam the prophet, sister of Aharon, took a tambourine in her hand; and all the women went out after her with tambourines, dancing, 21 as Miryam sang to them:


“Sing to Adonai, for he is highly exalted!
The horse and its rider he threw in the sea!”
CJB

Have you ever wondered what God meant in Jeremiah 31:9?
They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
Why does God call Ephraim His firstborn? The statement is by no means litterally true, so it must be considered a spiritual truth. We all know who the firstborn of God is, so what does He have to do with Ephraim or what does Ephraim have to do with Him? I've heard preachers say that the church isn't mentioned in the Old Testament, yet the body of Christ has been mentioned in the context of messianic scripture as in the example of 2nd Samuel 7:12-16
12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”
We know that the passage speaks of Christ and that Jesus was without iniquity, but the same can't be said for His body, the church. The chastening promised to us is a part of our reassurance of His paternal love.
We can't spiritualize passages at randomn, but the scripture gives us quite a bit of what we must understand in a spiritual way, and perhaps this is part of what seperates the sheep from the goats in the long run. Jesus said 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
We don't actually need to know which sheep belong to Jesus, but we do need to know Him and hear Him and follow Him. Everything else will pretty much sort itself out in the long run and I anticipate His return sooner than later.

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Actually, you "know" nothing of the sort; you "ASSUME" this all to be true. The prophecy of 2 Samu'el 7:12-16 is not talking about the Messiah or "His body," "spiritually" or otherwise! It is talking about Shlomo (Solomon)! God DID punish Shlomo when he got out of line, going after false gods, and chastened him "with the rods of men and with the blows of the sons of men!" The promise, though, is that God would not remove the Kingdom from him and verse 16 is finally talking about the Messiah Yeshua`! It's a good idea to supplement 2 Samu'el 7:12-16 with Psalm 89:

Psalm 89:1-52
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

Verses 4, 29, and 36-37 are extended to David's Seed, Yeshua` haMashiach, forever! No "spiritualization" is required.

Hi Retrobyter,

I'm glad you're enjoying our discussion.

I have the feeling you are over-emphasising the 'national Israel' implication, to offset what you perceive as an over-emphasis on Israel of the New Covenant, despite that the New Covenant was inaugurated by Messiah Jesus at Calvary.

In my understanding, when Daniel says 'Messiah be cut off, but not for himself', He was cut off from all Israel, although of course He was still an Israelite of Judah. In other words, the whole of Israel was cut off from the Branch. Now before you disagree, please think about that. It is the Branch which has the root into which all who believe are grafted. This is the continuation of the seed of David into the kingdom of which there shall be no end.

Going back to a point in an earlier post, you cannot limit the word 'salvation', to 'rescue'. It also means healing and salvation in the fullest sense of both.

Nor do I agree that Romans 10:13 overwhelmingly refers to Israel as the nation, rather than the context in which Paul is using it as he moves towards Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Surely the conclusion that a group of people have believed something, is dependant on each person in the group having believed on their own account. I cannot believe for you, and you cannot believe for me. The very meaning of the word 'believe', makes it implicit that individuals are involved. Just as it is implicit that those whose carcasses fell in the wilderness, were individuals who did not believe.

The same goes for Joel 2:32, which ties in perfectly, contextually, with Isaiah 59:20. There can be no avoidance of the need for individual faith.

It is all well and good pointing out that God was dealing with Israel as a nation at the time, but even God is depending on each individual to believe.

I've looked at Young's and Green's literal translations, and both of them bring in a word which means 'individually'.


If you think about the end of the parable of the vineyard with the tower, the returned lord promises to give it to those who will render fruit in due season. Again, it is impossible to think of the branches of the true Vine except as individuals who bear fruit. The fruit comes willingly from each one.

Hi Rex,

He was cut off when He died. And while He was dead He was cut off even from those who believed in Him.

After He was raised from among the dead, He recommissioned the disciples, and at Pentecost, when they had received the Holy Spirit, they could be one with Him for the first time - although OF COURSE there were also many others in Israel who watching for Messiah - but none of them could be joined to Him, until the Holy Spirit had been poured out.

According to all the Christians on this forum ..... all the Christians are either going to hell , or are headed that way.

Did I leave anyone out ?

We are all going to hell

Don't believe me ?

You need to go back and read all the threads

Off to hell we go

Rex said:

It looks like it's someones nap time

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hehe you got it ...... when I look at the majority of posts on the forum ...... it is like everybody is telling each other they are going to hell because nobody has salvation figured out yet.

I just figured I would quit beating around the bush and join them ...... we are all going to hell

And Israel ...... those guys ARE REALLY GOING TO HELL