I see you posted about the rest of the text I wrote
Let me just say from briefly reading your post "above" you don't have a clue about what is meant.
Let me just say from briefly reading your post "above" you don't have a clue about what is meant.
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You must have dyslexia or something ..... it is you who is trying to imply all nations are now IsraelRex said:I marvel at the way peoples minds work "all nations are now Israel"
It doesn't surprise me the least bit, its rather sad really.Arnie Manitoba said:I find it absolutely bizarre that someone would use EZE 18 to disprove Romans 11
Agreed .... i cannot grasp your concept whatsoeverRex said:I see you posted about the rest of the text I wrote
Let me just say from briefly reading your post "above" you don't have a clue about what is meant.
I am off to bed too ..... good night .Rex said:It doesn't surprise me the least bit, its rather sad really.
Good night Arnie I can see your upset
1 Corinthians 1:22-23 KJVArnie Manitoba said:Completely wacko daq
As usual
That is the politest way I can say it. Sorry.
Sweet dreams dreamer! However, please know that it is you who does not believe Romans or the Scripture. Paul clearly lays out the "definitions of terms" in the very first chapter where he writes of Jews, Greeks, Barbarians, and Gentiles which should be understood and rendered as Nations, (Ethnos). If you would only be willing to see what is said herein you might begin to understand that "Nations" can also be understood as "Heathen" and the same thing happens in the TaNaK with the word "goy-goyim" (sometimes it simply means a nation or nations and other times, by the context, it clearly means "heathen" as in Deuteronomy 7:1). Paul does not state anywhere that "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile" but rather he writes that "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek."Arnie Manitoba said:Agreed .... i cannot grasp your concept whatsoever
I am off to bed too ..... good night .
in closing ..... wouldn't this whole thing be resolved simply by believing Romans ?
This is where many brethren are failing to understand Apostle Paul in Romans 11 concerning the seed of Israel, and thus the part of Israel called the Jews.Arnie Manitoba said:We also know many in Israel were not believers.
We know God broke off the branch of the olive tree (Israel) containing the unbelieving Israelites
In its place we know God grafted a branch into the olive tree (Israel) for us Gentiles to partake of the promise along with the Jews ..... (we did not become the Jews .... or Israel)
Perhaps when the caul of your heart is finally rent open so that your heart may truly be circumcised you will see yourself in the whole new Light of Messiah. Unfortunately for you, (like most) it will take a lion or lioness, a she-bear robbed of her cubs, and a leopard to do the cleaving and rending; for your chestplate is one of iron. :lol:veteran said:This is where many brethren are failing to understand Apostle Paul in Romans 11 concerning the seed of Israel, and thus the part of Israel called the Jews.
Rom 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)
A "remnant" means God reserved a PART of the seed... of Israel unto His Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. They are the election according to His Grace, the first believers of the seed of Israel as His Apostles and disciples that followed Him.
Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
(KJV)
In verses 7-8 Paul is talking about the seed of Israel ONLY. He is not speaking of Gentiles. The election of the seed of Israel obtained Christ's Grace, but the rest of Israel was blinded by God.
Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(KJV)
Paul said SOME of the branches of the seed of Israel were broken off, not ALL... of the seed of Israel.
Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(KJV)
That "blindness in part" means only a PORTION of the seed of Israel was blinded by God, not all of them.
So WHICH PART mostly, of the seed of Israel was blinded away from Christ's Salvation of His Blood shed upon the cross?
THE JEWS, mostly.
Per Bible and secular history, who are the JEWS?
The Jews were a separated branch from the main body of the seed of Israel. The Jews was a title used by the small remnant of the "house of Judah" that returned to Jerusalem from their 70 years Babylon captivity. Bible history hints the "house of Judah" may have begun using that title of 'Jew' to distinguish their kingdom at Jerusalem from the northern ten tribe kingdom of Israel under the tribe of Ephraim.
The northern ten tribe kingdom of the "house of Israel" made up the majority of the seed of Israel. They were scattered apart from the Jews (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), and never returned to the holy lands of promise. Those returning to the modern state of Israel today are JEWS, not ten tribe Israelites.
Some of the Jews that were scattered also believed on Jesus Christ. But they by no means make up the majority of today's Christian Church, not back in history and not now either.
So did GOD forget about the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel, i.e., the ten tribes?? I assure you, He did not forget them, and knows where He scattered them to and who they would become in the latter days.
Amen Arnie.Arnie Manitoba said:Romans is one of the most straightforward chapters in the whole bible.
The people who refuse to believe it must be rooted in blind antisemitism
I can think of no other reason.
(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.
(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means! - That was said before 70ADArnie Manitoba said:(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.
All those things I know to be true from the Epistle to the Romans. So what then? Are you trying to paint those who disagree with you as anti-Semites now? Are you accusing me of hating my own people because I simply told you the truth? It is not anti-Semitism but rather anti-Zionism and there is a huge difference. If you are willing to accuse me of anti-Semitism then you are nothing more than a Rockefeller-Rothschild Zionist Illuminati, (western faction) stooge, and in truth, it is you who are really the one who hates my people and uses them for your own political gain.Arnie Manitoba said:Romans is one of the most straightforward chapters in the whole bible.
The people who refuse to believe it must be rooted in blind antisemitism
I can think of no other reason.
(Paul said) ...... Did God reject his people? By no means!
(Paul said) ...... Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
(Paul said) ...... the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
(Paul said) ...... do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
(Paul said) ...... You do not support the root, but the root supports you
(Paul said) ...... God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
(Paul said) ...... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Paul said) ...... God is able to graft them in again.
No Arnie what I am doing is applying this warning from the Lord about the use of the proverb to the modern teachers.Arnie Manitoba said:Completely unrelated ..... the message of Eze 18 is that every individual is responsible for their own sin .... if a parent sins (eats sour grapes) .... the results will not be transferred to the child. (child's teeth set on edge)
It is an untrue proverb ..... and for that reason that proverb shall no longer be spoken in Israel.
You are trying to twist it to say there will not be an Israel to say a proverb in ... sheesh !!!!
.....................
That is exactly what they do so that they may have their own segregated "dispensation of grace" and leave the Jews out of the equation until the "Rapture" when seven more years of "the Law age" and Armageddon come down upon the heads of the Jews while they are feasting in heaven. It is absurd to the point of ludicrous especially when the Jews, (at least as a people for the most part) have never left any "age of the Law" and continue to observe Torah. :lol:Rex said:No Arnie what I am doing is applying this warning from the Lord about the use of the proverb to the modern teachers.
Those that teach that the proper understanding of Romans 11:25 is that Israel has been blinded, for 2000 years now, thats what they say and teach.
That my friend is using the the parable of the sour grapes. That Gods has blinded Israels generations, not because of what they have done but apparently because of what their fathers did. He "God" goes on to clearly point out that He will not curse a man because of his fathers sin or rejection of the truth. Thats not what modern dispensationolist teach. They use the parable of the sour grapes. I hope you understand my point now.
God clearly warned that this "proverb" should never be spoken, "used" yet here we are with thousands of ministers basing NT teachings on the same proverb. It's to bad Arnie because there is much more that could probably be learned form this starting point, it echos Daniel and Rev the captivity in Babylon but If some choose to continue in the use of the proverb just as it was for Jer and Ezek in their day, we can not move any closer to the Lord or the greater understanding and connection this has to EVERYTHING.
I agree two groups, I started a thread about two groups of people found in Matthew 25Angelina said:He is speaking of physical Israel. Not all of physical Israel [of the flesh or descended from] are Israel but those who are spiritually saved are citizen's of Israel.
This does not correspond with Revelation 7:9-17 because John is making a distinction between two groups of redeemed peoples.
I would like to add for the benefit of others that may agree with my post, that the Lord raised up two great prophets Jer and Ezek just before it hit the fan.daq said:That is exactly what they do so that they may have their own segregated "dispensation of grace" and leave the Jews out of the equation until the "Rapture" when seven more years of "the Law age" and Armageddon come down upon the heads of the Jews while they are feasting in heaven. It is absurd to the point of ludicrous especially when the Jews, (at least as a people for the most part) have never left any "age of the Law" and continue to observe Torah. :lol:
Not sure what the "prophet" comments are about, (neither do I claim to be a prophet, a scholar, or anything else) but as for the "brethren" comments I have five on my right hand as well as five on my left hand and all of them belong to the Lord, as fellowservants of my household, placed under my care while the Master is away in a far journey, ("Yeshua Says"). h34r:Rex said:I agree two groups, I started a thread about two groups of people found in Matthew 25
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16944-matthew-2531-40-let-me-hear-from-u/
The sheep of His hand and His brethren
I would like to add for the benefit of others that may agree with my post, that the Lord raised up two great prophets Jer and Ezek just before it hit the fan.
It's just another reason to believe there is nothing new under the sun. I want to mention that I am not a prophet, I'm simply a man that on occasion catches a glimpse of the light and shares it with whom ever will listen.
Rex said:Thats an interesting read a good eye daq.
But I see something else, I don't believe that the sour grape proverb was ever inspired by God. Notice His opening statement through Ezek
Ezek 18:1-2
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying,
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 2 “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel,
Then of course we see verse 3
Ezek 18:1-2 NIV 3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 KJV 3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Ezek 18:1-2 ESV 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
Now I would like all of you people that have heard your paster tell you that Romans 11:25 means that God has blinded the nation of Israel until the end times when the "miss placed" 70th week is said the be fulfilled, to consider what I'm about to say.
Romans 11:25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
I ask you this, is this a generational blindness that your pasters are teaching you? Can you not clearly see the pasters teaching such things are simply repeating the errors of Israels past? Clearly God is not at all pleased with this proverb,
Ezek 18:2-3 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Just be careful who you listen to, and believe only what the Lord has placed upon your heart, search the scriptures to see what you have heard is true.
That proverb is being used every day through out most of the churches in the US.
The really sad thing about it is, most people believe it
And their about to go into captivity
Just as it happened in the past, please remember the whore and what was written on her forehead
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.
Babylon that's what was written,
The very same thing Ezek and Jer were warning Israel about, captivity
In Babylon
Fair enough Rex ..... I did not know the proverb was used as you say ..... I have never heard of it before ... and I have never used it myselfRex said:No Arnie what I am doing is applying this warning from the Lord about the use of the proverb to the modern teachers.
Those that teach that the proper understanding of Romans 11:25 is that Israel has been blinded, for 2000 years now, thats what they say and teach.
That my friend is using the the parable of the sour grapes. That Gods has blinded Israels generations, not because of what they have done but apparently because of what their fathers did. He "God" goes on to clearly point out that He will not curse a man because of his fathers sin or rejection of the truth. Thats not what modern dispensationolist teach. They use the parable of the sour grapes. I hope you understand my point now.
God clearly warned that this "proverb" should never be spoken, "used" yet here we are with thousands of ministers basing NT teachings on the same proverb. It's to bad Arnie because there is much more that could probably be learned form this starting point, it echos Daniel and Rev the captivity in Babylon but If some choose to continue in the use of the proverb just as it was for Jer and Ezek in their day, we can not move any closer to the Lord or the greater understanding and connection this has to EVERYTHING.
I didn't make-up these descriptive names but we're all forced at some point to use them, it's perhaps best to understand the basic definitions.Distinction between Israel and the Church
All dispensationalists hold to a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. Israel is an ethnic nation[8] consisting of Hebrews (Israelites), beginning with Abraham and continuing in existence to the present. The church consists of all saved individuals in this present dispensation—i.e., from the "birth of the Church" in Acts until the time of the Rapture.[9] The distinction between Israel and the Church is not mutually exclusive, as there is a recognized overlap between the two.[1]:295 The overlap consists of Jewish Christians (such as Peter and Paul - although the Apostle Paul was also a Roman citizen, by birth, he was of the tribe of Benjamin and a strong Jewish nationalist in heart (Rom 9:1-3)) who are ethnically Jewish and also have faith in Jesus Christ. Dispensationalists also believe that toward the end of the Tribulation, Israel as a nation will turn and embrace Jesus as their messiah right before his second coming during the Great Tribulation. The spectrum of teaching on Israel and the Church may be depicted as below:[10]
Classical dispensationalists refer to the present day Church as a "parenthesis" or temporary interlude in the progress of Israel's prophesied history.
[11]Progressive dispensationalism "softens" the Church/Israel distinction by seeing some Old Testament promises as expanded by the New Testament to include the Church. However, progressives never view this expansion as replacing promises to its original audience, Israel.[12]
Covenant Theology is the alternative view to dispensationalism that holds that God has one people Israel and the promises to Israel made in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the new Israel, and the object of Abraham's hope. Dispensationalists have often criticized Covenant Theology as being identical with what they call "Replacement Theology" or
Supersessionism, the concept that the Church has replaced Israel. However, in Covenant Theology, the church is not a replacement for the nation of Israel but an expansion of it where Gentiles are "grafted into" the existing covenant community. Jewish Christians are included in the spiritual Israel.[13]