Shalom, Rex.
Rex said:
Sure they are, you're the one that offered DF a choice that didn't include believing in the seed, which was Christ. Instead you teach by the seeds salvation is delivered Gal 3:16 Not much of a choice or the salvation message. I won't be thanking or be standing in reverance to the Jews of delivering salvation, and God is of the same opinion, Ezek 20:9 It's God who gets the glory, not a bunch ego maniacs
Exclusion of the promise "not a covenant" is also not something I find, Gal 3:8 so my salvation has nothing to do with Israel of the flesh zero nada nothing, God literately had to drag them to the birth of Christ, FOR HIS NAME SAKE.
Salvation is of the Jews meaning Christ would be born from the seed of David "Abraham" You see David was recipient of the promise by faith.
Not, salvation because of the Jews
I have every bit of respect for those of the promise Being John, James, Abraham ect ect ect And I thank them for delivering the message they witnessed John 17:20
But your not part of the promise your teaching a different Gospel
This I'm attending the wedding feast by showing my birth certificate today is nonsense, it has already been offered and refused by those living at the time of Christ. Matthew 22:1-14
Then the second part of Gods promise came into being Gal 3:8 or the last part of the parable Matthew 22:7-9 he destroyed those murderers and burned their city "70 AD anyone" The Jews had exclusive right to the promise and salvation from John the Baptist Matthew 3:9-10 till Acts 10:1-48 now the promise is given to the nations. The ax was laid at the root Israel as nation of flesh inspite of the great embarrassment they were to God the time was fulfilled NIV says The time has come. Mark 1:15 KJV
Would you mind punctuating just a little bit? I can hardly make heads or tails of what you're talking about!
If you mean "you are" when you say "your," please use "you're." "Your" is a possessive pronoun and it throws me off. "You're" is the contraction.
That said, this is another instance where versions like the NIV have problems. Allow me to walk you through what I'm talking about:
In the KJV, the verses you quote from Galatians 3:16-18 say a totally different thing than what the NIV says:
Galatians 3:16-18
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
KJV
Galatians 3:16-18
16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
NIV
The Greek says it this way:
Pros Galatas 3:16-18
16 Too de Abraam erretheesan hai epaggeliai kai too spermati autou. Ou legei, "Kai tois spermasin," hoos epi polloon all' hoos ef' henos, "Kai too spermati sou," hoos estin Christos.
17 Touto de legoo, diatheekeen prokekuroomeneen hupo tou Theou ho meta tetrakosia kai triakonta etee gegonoos nomos ouk akuroi eis to katargeesai tee epaggelian.
18 Ei gar ek nomou hee kleeronomia, ouketi ex epaggelias; too de Abraam di' epaggelias kecharistai ho Theos.
Greek New Testament
16 Too = 16 To-the
de = but
Abraam = Abraham
erretheesan = were-spoken
hai = the
epaggeliai = promises
kai = and
too = to-the
spermati = seed
autou. = of-him.
Ou = Not
legei, = did-he-say,
"Kai = "And
tois = to-the
spermasin," = seeds,"
hoos = like/as
epi = upon
polloon = many
all' = but
hoos = like/as
ef' (epi) = upon
henos, = one,
"Kai = "And
too = to-the
spermati = seed
sou," = of-him,"
hoos = like/as
estin = is
christos. = messiah/anointed.
17 Touto = 17 This
de = but
legoo, = I-say,
diatheekeen = a-covenant
prokekuroomeneen = previously-ratified
hupo = under
tou = the
Theou = God
ho = the …
meta = amid/after
tetrakosia = four-hundred
kai = and
triakonta = thirty
etee = years
gegonoos - which-was
nomos = Torah/Law
ouk = cannot
akuroi = invalidate
eis = into
to = the
katargeesai = render-useless
tee = the
epaggelian. = promise.
18 Ei = 18 If
gar = for
ek = out-of
nomou = Torah/Law
hee = the
kleeronomia, = inheritance,
ouketi = no-more
ex = out-of
epaggelias; = a-promise;
too = to-the
de = but
Abraam = Abraham
di' (dia) = through
epaggelias = a-promise
kecharistai = gave
ho = the
Theos. = God.
16 To-the but Abraham were-spoken the promises and to-the seed of-him. Not did-he-say, "And to-the seeds,"
like/as upon many but
like/as upon one, "And to-the seed of-him," like/as is messiah/anointed.
17 This but I-say, a-covenant previously-ratified under the God the amid/after four-hundred and thirty years which-was Torah/Law cannot invalidate into the render-useless the promise.
18 If for out-of Torah/Law the inheritance, no-more out-of a-promise; to-the but Abraham through a-promise gave the God.
16 But the promises were spoken to (the) Abraham and to his seed. He did not say, "And to the seeds,"
as though upon many but
as upon one, "And to his seed," as is anointed.
17 But I say this: The Torah/Law cannot invalidate a Covenant previously ratified under (the) God after four hundred and thirty years into a useless promise.
18 For if (the) God gave the inheritance out of Torah/Law, no more out of a promise, but God gave a promise to (the) Abraham.
Just some basics of Greek: In the word "henos" (meaning "one"), the "h" in transliteration is NOT a Greek letter; it comes from the rough breathing above the beginning epsilon (e).
So, when "epi" is used before a word, such as "henos," that begins with a vowel, the iota is dropped and the pi (p) changes to a phi (f). Thus, "epi" and "ef'" are the same Greek word, the preposition meaning "upon."
There is no word for "person" or "persons" or "people" within those phrases. The translators of the NIV felt that it was "many PEOPLE" and "one PERSON," so they SUPPLIED the words to clarify their assumptions in their translation. However, it does NOT say that! The last noun in play is the word "SEED" ("SPERMA")!
Notice, too, that there is NO definite article before the word "christos," and while it is a noun that means "anointed-one," it doesn't necessarily have to refer to Yeshua`. A minor point, to be sure, but a point of interest anyway. Whether the word "christos" (there were no capital letters as we use them today to signify Yeshua` as THE Christos) refers to the Messiah Himself or to the seed from which He sprang makes little difference here. My point is that the SEED is the genetic line TO the Messiah from Avraham!
Avraham ("most exalted father") didn't just have two sons, Ishma'el and Yitschaq (Isaac); he had MANY children who each became peoples! He had more than just two "wives," Sarah and Hagar. He also had a second concubine after Sarah died named Keturah:
Genesis 25:1-6
1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were (the) Asshurim, and (the) Letushim, and (the) Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
KJV
We can also learn more about Ishmael:
Genesis 25:12-16
12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
KJV
1 Chronicles 1:29-31
29 These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
30 Mishma and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema,
31 Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael.
KJV
We can also piece together information about Esau and his descendants:
Genesis 36:1-43
1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.
2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;
3 And Bashemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebajoth.
4 And Adah bare to Esau Eliphaz; and Bashemath bare Reuel;
5 And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these are the sons of Esau, which were born unto him in the land of Canaan.
6 And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7 For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:
10 These are the names of Esau's sons; Eliphaz the son of Adah the wife of Esau, Reuel the son of Bashemath the wife of Esau.
11 And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz.
12 And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's wife.
13 And these are the sons of Reuel; Nahath, and Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah: these were the sons of Bashemath Esau's wife.
14 And these were the sons of Aholibamah, the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon, Esau's wife: and she bare to Esau Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah.
15 These were dukes of the sons of Esau: the sons of Eliphaz the firstborn son of Esau; duke Teman, duke Omar, duke Zepho, duke Kenaz,
16 Duke Korah, duke Gatam, and duke Amalek: these are the dukes that came of Eliphaz in the land of Edom; these were the sons of Adah.
17 And these are the sons of Reuel Esau's son; duke Nahath, duke Zerah, duke Shammah, duke Mizzah: these are the dukes that came of Reuel in the land of Edom; these are the sons of Bashemath Esau's wife.
18 And these are the sons of Aholibamah Esau's wife; duke Jeush, duke Jaalam, duke Korah: these were the dukes that came of Aholibamah the daughter of Anah, Esau's wife.
19 These are the sons of Esau, who is Edom, and these are their dukes.
20 These are the sons of Seir the Horite, who inhabited the land; Lotan, and Shobal, and Zibeon, and Anah,
21 And Dishon, and Ezer, and Dishan: these are the dukes of the Horites, the children of Seir in the land of Edom.
22 And the children of Lotan were Hori and Hemam; and Lotan's sister was Timna.
23 And the children of Shobal were these; Alvan, and Manahath, and Ebal, Shepho, and Onam.
24 And these are the children of Zibeon; both Ajah, and Anah: this was that Anah that found the mules in the wilderness, as he fed the asses of Zibeon his father.
25 And the children of Anah were these; Dishon, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah.
26 And these are the children of Dishon; Hemdan, and Eshban, and Ithran, and Cheran.
27 The children of Ezer are these; Bilhan, and Zaavan, and Akan.
28 The children of Dishan are these: Uz, and Aran.
29 These are the dukes that came of the Horites; duke Lotan, duke Shobal, duke Zibeon, duke Anah,
30 Duke Dishon, duke Ezer, duke Dishan: these are the dukes that came of Hori, among their dukes in the land of Seir.
31 And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.
32 And Bela the son of Beor reigned in Edom: and the name of his city was Dinhabah.
33 And Bela died, and Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead.
34 And Jobab died, and Husham of the land of Temani reigned in his stead.
35 And Husham died, and Hadad the son of Bedad, who smote Midian in the field of Moab, reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Avith.
36 And Hadad died, and Samlah of Masrekah reigned in his stead.
37 And Samlah died, and Saul of Rehoboth by the river reigned in his stead.
38 And Saul died, and Baal-hanan the son of Achbor reigned in his stead.
39 And Baal-hanan the son of Achbor died, and Hadar reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Pau; and his wife's name was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab.
40 And these are the names of the dukes that came of Esau, according to their families, after their places, by their names; duke Timnah, duke Alvah, duke Jetheth,
41 Duke Aholibamah, duke Elah, duke Pinon,
42 Duke Kenaz, duke Teman, duke Mibzar,
43 Duke Magdiel, duke Iram: these be the dukes of Edom, according to their habitations in the land of their possession: he is Esau the father of the Edomites.
KJV
Using an outlining system, the seeds of Avraham are as follows:
I.
Abraham
I. A. Ishmael
I. A. 1. Nebajoth/Nebaioth
I. A. 2. Kedar
I. A. 3. Adbeel
I. A. 4. Mibsam
I. A. 5. Mishma
I. A. 6. Dumah
I. A. 7. Massa
I. A. 8. Hadad
I. A. 9. Tema
I. A. 10. Jetur
I. A. 11. Naphish
I. A. 12. Kedemah
I. B.
Isaac
I. B. 1. Esau
I. B. 1. a. Eliphaz
I. B. 1. a. i. Duke Teman
I. B. 1. a. ii. Duke Omar
I. B. 1. a. iii. Duke Zepho
I. B. 1. a. iv. Duke Gatan
I. B. 1. a. v. Duke Kenaz
I. B. 1. a. vi. Amalek
I. B. 1. b. Reuel
I. B. 1. b. i. Duke Nahath
I. B. 1. b. ii. Duke Zerah
I. B. 1. b. iii. Duke Shammah
I. B. 1. b. iv. Duke Mizzah
I. B. 1. c. Duke Jeush
I. B. 1. d. Duke Jaalam
I. B. 1. e. Duke Korah
I. B. 2.
Jacob, a.k.a. Israel
I. B. 2. a. Reuben
I. B. 2. b. Simeon
I. B. 2. c. Levi
I. B. 2. d. Judah
I. B. 2. e. Dan
I. B. 2. f. Naphtali
I. B. 2. g. Gad
I. B. 2. h. Asher
I. B. 2. i. Issachar
I. B. 2. j. Zebulun
I. B. 2. k. Joseph
I. B. 2. k. i. Manasseh
I. B. 2. k. ii. Ephraim
I. B. 2. l. Benjamin
I. C. Zimran
I. D. Jokshan
I. D. 1. Sheba
I. D. 2. Dedan
I. D. 2. a. (the) Asshurim (these are all PLURAL words; they are each a PEOPLE)
I. D. 2. b. (the) Letushim
I. D. 2. c. (the) Leummim
I. E. Medan
I. F. Midian
I. F. 1. Ephah
I. F. 2. Epher
I. F. 3. Hanoch
I. F. 4. Abida
I. F. 5. Eldaah
I. G. Ishbak
I. H. Shuah
Only the highlighted ones were the anointed seed.
So, there were LOTS of SEEDS (GENETIC LINES) that came out of Avraham (hence, his name)! But, the LINE OF PROMISE, the LINE OF THE ANOINTED, was that of Yitschaq (Isaac).
