Shalom, Rex.
Hope you have (had, by the time you read this) a good day at work.
Rex said:
So, Retro, are you going to deny that Joseph was a shadow of the Christ to come, who, after seating his 11 brothers, provided food to their table and then later revealed himself? Are you going to deny that this, too, is a fulfilling of the scripture, and not simply sending Judas away from the last supper? Some know the true seed that sprouted and grew was Christ, both fulfilling the scriptures and bearing much fruit among the descendents of Abraham.
Did you catch my last post?
You may be interested in the red part.
(See below.)
I should mention the NT as well.
I'll check in later; I have to work.
Rex said:
No I don't agree, and right honestly it's one of the worst, most vague explanations for what someone does believe I've tried to decipher. I not so sure I completely understand the entirety of what you do believe, but just the same I disagree.
And where is your thumbnail sketch of your position on salvation concerning Abraham's decendents and the nations? You did say it was coming.
To be honest reading through your post and replies you move through scripture like a snake in the grass and most is only slightly touched on at best, you leave more questions than you provide answers.
You're crafty I'll give you that. At times it appears you believe one thing then move the other direction, I see now why you appear to agree with me yet lead right back into error, just the same I'm sure in the end you believe Israel of the flesh to be a special nation inspite of my last post pointing out.
Israel ---->> was a name given from heaven; it is not the line descendent from Jacob. So why don't you understand that born of flesh is flesh and that born from above is from heaven. So how is it that this man born of the flesh named Jacob can through his flesh give birth to heavenly men named Israel?
Vague, little statements and questions for answers. I'm beginning to see why you repeat what I say as though I didn't say it, then curl around the truth and lead people away.
Another point from your book of questions, If Jacob called Israel did birth heavenly men why did they rebel through out the entire OT?
SURE, I'm going to deny it! I hadn't even made such a quirky connection before! It's like trying to marry a snake with an aardvark to see what they'd produce! IT CAN'T BE DONE! IT
SHOULDN'T BE DONE! Why would ANYONE take the 11 apostles and try to make some point about them with the 11 brothers of Yosef?! Just because they both use the number 11??!!! IT CAN'T BE DONE! IT
SHOULDN'T BE DONE! That sounds like something Daq would say!
If I'm going to use Yosef, the father of Manasheh and Efrayim, as an example of the Messiah, it would ONLY be because Yeshua` is called the "Suffering Messiah, Messiah the son of Yosef." That phrase DOES draw from this person's example of self-sacrifice, and the body of prophecy that was recognized as about a suffering and dying Messiah was given this title, as opposed to the body of prophecy that was recognized as about a victorious and reigning Messiah, called "Messiah the son of David."
{Sigh.) You guys and your definitions of "Heaven" and "heavenly." They continue to screw you up every time you use the words! When are you EVER going to learn?
"Yisra'el" (Israel) simply means "a prince with God." "Ya`aqov" (Jacob) means a "heel-grabber" or a "substitution," a "replacement," an "alternate," or a "proxy." When God changed his name from "substitution" - a "heel-grabber" - to a "prince with God," it was a PROMOTION! He was no longer being compared to his older brother Esav (Esau, which by the way, means "rough" or "roughly handled," because even as a new-born, he came out "red all over like a hairy garment"). He had finally come into his own!
These names also ought not be confused with...
John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
KJV
You need also to understand that one cannot be born of the Spirit without first being born of the flesh! Furthermore, Paul taught us that this will also be true in the resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But someone will ask, “In what manner are the dead raised? What sort of body do they have?”
36 Stupid! When you sow a seed, it doesn’t come alive unless it first dies.
37 Also, what you sow is not the body that will be, but a bare seed of, say, wheat or something else;
38 but God gives it the body he intended for it; and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
39 Not all living matter is the same living matter; on the contrary, there is one kind for human beings, another kind of living matter for animals, another for birds and another for fish.
40 Further, there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the beauty of heavenly bodies is one thing, while the beauty of earthly bodies is something else.
41 The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon another, the stars yet another; indeed, each star has its own individual kind of beauty.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. When the body is “sown,” it decays; when it is raised, it cannot decay.
43 When sown, it is without dignity; when raised, it will be beautiful. When sown, it is weak; when raised, it will be strong.
44 When sown, it is an ordinary human body; when raised, it will be a body controlled by the Spirit. If there is an ordinary human body, there is also a body controlled by the Spirit.
45 In fact, the
Tanakh says so: Adam, the first man,
became a living human being;
m but the last “Adam” has become a life-giving Spirit.
46 Note, however, that the body from the Spirit did not come first, but the ordinary human one; the one from the Spirit comes afterwards.
47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 People born of dust are like the man of dust, and people born from heaven are like the man from heaven;
49 and just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so also we will bear the image of the man from heaven.
50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final
shofar. For the
shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.
53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality.
54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the
Tanakh will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.n
55 “Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?”o
56 The sting of death is sin; and sin draws its power from the
Torah;
57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah!
CJB
