The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

That's what I though, zero NT evidence to support your understanding of Romans 11:25, or should I say contradict the NT teachings you ignore.

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Are you ok Rex? I mean, do you suffer from a mental illness of some sort? - I ask this in sincerity because you say "zero" NT evidence and yet out of the 16 quotes in my response only 2 of them were OT. And yet you did not deal with any of them.

Not to mention the very clear teaching of Heb 8:8,9,10 revealing to you the two houses will be joined into one house as planned.

Purity

Shalom, daq.

daq said:

Still nothing but the flesh in your responses Retrobyter? And how convenient that Acts 15 really no longer applies, (for you anyways) and likewise, by your same reasoning herein, then the seven letters to the seven churches of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua were also not written to you and, therefore, must also not really apply to you. The most common, deadly, and destructive idol that a man can have in his vain imagination is the image of himself, (Daniel 3) which is his Baal. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" says the Most High.

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<Sigh.> It's okay. I know I have no authority in your life, and you don't know me from Adam. You'll just never get it (at least, from me) until the ONE who has the Authority tells you face to face! I'm pretty sure that you'll have no trouble believing Him.

Frankly, no, the letters to the seven Messianic communities of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua` do NOT apply to me directly. That's not to say I can't learn from their positive and negative examples and the Master's reactions to their behavior, but they WEREN'T written to me! It's just NUTS to think they were! LOL! Are you meshuggah?! :blink:

These were seven Messianic communities in Turkey which Yochanan (John) had visited and probably helped to grow before he was sentenced to the Isle of Patmos. These communities follow the roads from the nearest point across the Adriatic/Mediterranean Sea from Patmos in a "C" pattern to the north west and then across toward the east of Asia Minor. They do not represent seven periods of the "Church Age" nor are they to be fulfilled in the future! Today, most of these congregations don't even exist! They've long ago died off, but they can still provide lessons for us today if we can see our own communities reflected in their strengths and weaknesses.

Retrobyter said:

Frankly, no, the letters to the seven Messianic communities of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua` do NOT apply to me directly. That's not to say I can't learn from their positive and negative examples and the Master's reactions to their behavior, but they WEREN'T written to me! It's just NUTS to think they were! LOL! Are you meshuggah?! :blink:

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This post is good old fashioned nonsense of a deluded kind.

Of course if he believes this, and doubtless he does, he has just denied himself the unique blessings to those who read and understand the book - Rev 1:3 "front" till the "end" Rev 22:7

Note, its a single prophecy inclusive of all the letters to the seven Ekklesia's.

Your comment only reveals an ignorance of the things written therein.

Purity

Retrobyter said:

That's the kind of thinking that led to Joseph Smith and his story/claim that God's messenger gave him a special, golden book that only he could see and interpret with those special glasses he claimed he had also been given!

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daq said:

Please do not attempt character assassination by equating my theology with Joseph Smith and Mormonism.

Click to expand...

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, daq. (My words and answers will be in purple since your verses are in blue.)

Wouldn't dream of it, bro', but you DO need to understand that it is the same MENTALITY that helped Joseph Smith to validate his belief-system. I'm not calling you a "Mormon" or anything close. But, I DO wish you'd be able to see the similarities between how you handle the Scriptures and how he got his start! That's the danger I see in what you promote!

Click to expand...

You do not see the similarity in your teaching of "god-men" returning and ruling planet Earth in glorified flesh?

Retrobyter said:

Frankly, no, the letters to the seven Messianic communities of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua` do NOT apply to me directly. That's not to say I can't learn from their positive and negative examples and the Master's reactions to their behavior, but they WEREN'T written to me! It's just NUTS to think they were! LOL! Are you meshuggah?! :blink:

Click to expand...

me·shuga adjective \mə-ˈshu̇-gə\
Definition of MESHUGA

: crazy, foolish
Variants of MESHUGA


me·shuga or me·shug·ge also me·shug·ah or me·shug·gah
Examples of MESHUGA

1. <when your mother is meshuga like his was, a lifetime of therapy is pretty much a foregone conclusion>

Origin of MESHUGA
Yiddish meshuge, from Hebrew mĕshuggāʽ
First Known Use: 1885
Related to MESHUGA


Synonyms balmy, barmy [chiefly British], bats, batty, bedlam, bonkers, brainsick, bughouse [slang], certifiable, crackbrained, cracked, crackers, crackpot, cranky [dialect], crazed, crazy, cuckoo, daffy, daft, demented, deranged, fruity [slang], gaga, haywire, kooky (also kookie), loco [slang], loony (also looney), loony tunes (or looney tunes), lunatic, mad, maniacal (also maniac), mental, insane (or meshugge also meshugah or meshuggah), moonstruck, non compos mentis, nuts, nutty, psycho, psychotic, scatty [chiefly British], screwy, unbalanced, unhinged, unsound, wacko (also whacko), wacky (also whacky), wud [chiefly Scottish]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meshuga

Matthew 15:18-19 KJV
18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

---

Rex said:

This is the way I see it today veteran. the promise was contained in Jacob in both the flesh and the spirit, but Jacob lead by God knew he need to separate the promise from the flesh, just as we all do. Being born of the promise in spirit, yet are condemned flesh is never fully in compliance with the spirit, that is why Paul said the corruptible must put on the incorruptible, meaning, being changed and given a new tent "body" that will not see decay or be at odds with the spirit.

Jacob split the flesh of the "seed" singular being Christ from the promise "being salvation" between Joesph and Judah, The sum of both contained in Jacob, spirit and flesh were separated and set out to fulfill one thing, the completion of the promise in Jesus. Now this promise has been fulfilled in it's entirety through the Spirit,
but the actual flesh being reveled is yet to come, meaning we don't know with all certainty who is who. But we can't discount the fact that Jesus was the reuniting of the flesh and the promise separated by Jacob.

daq I want you to use your vast knowledge of the Torah to correct me or amend anything you disagree with, I'll listen to you. I wish I knew half what you do about the Torah.

Click to expand...

Shalom-Peace to you Rex, in Messiah. Sorry to see that you appear to no longer be with us. I did not miss this post I have quoted, (and thank you) but was rather hoping we might walk together in these things through many more threads to come. Apparently that will not be happening now. I think you are on the right track here in this thread. Just keep eating and in the epifaneia of the parousias of the Master he will provide the Light to all of it!

Hi veteran,

Thanks for your patient expositions. No time to comment right now, but will pick up on a couple of your points when I can.


Blessings

Hi Rex,

Show me where Israel's 10 tribes returned to Jerusalem to be reunited with Judea.

He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.
Jeremiah 31:10​

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Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come;
and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Psalm 80:1 Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock;
thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.


1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

dragonfly said:

Genesis 49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come;
and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Psalm 80:1 Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock;
thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.


1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Click to expand...

All Israel united in messiah:

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, ...
there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. ...
Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem...
Ye men of Israel, hear these words...
let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ...
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2

Shabbat shalom, daq.

daq said:

You do not see the similarity in your teaching of "god-men" returning and ruling planet Earth in glorified flesh?


me·shuga adjective \mə-ˈshu̇-gə\
Definition of MESHUGA

: crazy, foolish
Variants of MESHUGA


me·shuga or me·shug·ge also me·shug·ah or me·shug·gah
Examples of MESHUGA

1. <when your mother is meshuga like his was, a lifetime of therapy is pretty much a foregone conclusion>

Origin of MESHUGA
Yiddish meshuge, from Hebrew mĕshuggāʽ
First Known Use: 1885
Related to MESHUGA


Synonyms balmy, barmy [chiefly British], bats, batty, bedlam, bonkers, brainsick, bughouse [slang], certifiable, crackbrained, cracked, crackers, crackpot, cranky [dialect], crazed, crazy, cuckoo, daffy, daft, demented, deranged, fruity [slang], gaga, haywire, kooky (also kookie), loco [slang], loony (also looney), loony tunes (or looney tunes), lunatic, mad, maniacal (also maniac), mental, insane (or meshugge also meshugah or meshuggah), moonstruck, non compos mentis, nuts, nutty, psycho, psychotic, scatty [chiefly British], screwy, unbalanced, unhinged, unsound, wacko (also whacko), wacky (also whacky), wud [chiefly Scottish]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meshuga

Matthew 15:18-19 KJV
18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

...

Click to expand...

Sorry, dude. Guess I struck a nerve, eh? Yeah, that's the "meshuggah" I meant. Just the same, I asked it in the form of a question. All you had to do is say, "No."

That was no "character assassination." And, even if I had, that would NOT be "hatred" or "murder." Get a grip! I wasn't attacking you, the person, but I can't even attack the problem, the way you handle the Scriptures?! That's not even reasonable! I love you as a brother; I have no reason not to, and you've never given me a reason to question your commitment to the Messiah. Your quoting of 1 John 3:15 to me implying that I hate you IS offensive to me! And, I CERTAINLY don't deserve you labeling me a "murderer!"

I'm going to give you two things you can count on: First, I will continue to enjoy lively discussions with you (if you will) regarding prophecy, and second, I will continue to question your methodology!

And, for the record, NO, I don't see a bit of problem Scripturally with my 'teaching of "god-men" returning and ruling planet Earth in glorified flesh.'

You simply have forgotten how to LISTEN to the Scriptures in your attempts at cramming them together:


Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV


Philippians 3:8-15
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
KJV


Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV


Zechariah 12:8
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:39-57
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (the sky).
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (transformed!),
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (the living) shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


2 Timothy 2:15-19
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
KJV


2 Corinthians 5:1-11
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
KJV


It's a LITERAL RESURRECTION OF OUR NATURAL BODIES, and it's a LITERAL TRANSFORMATION OF OUR NATURAL (psuchikos) BODIES INTO SUPERNATURAL (pneumatikos) BODIES! This MORTAL (bodies able to die) must put on IMMORTALITY (bodies no longer able to die)! This CORRUPTIBLE (bodies able to decay) must put on INCORRUPTION (bodies no longer able to decay)! Death will be LITERALLY swallowed up in victory!

Don't let any potential hypercriticism get in your way of finding out the Truth!

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

All Israel united in messiah:

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, ...
there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. ...
Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem...
Ye men of Israel, hear these words...
let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ...
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2

Click to expand...

Paul also mentions the twelve tribes in Acts 26, as if they've never been separated from each other as a unit.

I am wondering about the deeper meaning of the word 'gathering', or 'gathered', as used in the OT when one of the leading characters dies. By that I mean, when Moses wrote 'the gathering of the people', was he using a word which idiomatically expressed that 'the gathering' is about dying?

Genesis 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Genesis 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Genesis 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Deuteronomy 32:50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people.


Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ = gathered unto Christ?

[who are still alive on the earth]
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together [with Him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection... 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


When we die, we finally catch up with Him in the physical sense, although we already live with Him in the spiritual sense.

The Bible speaks of two Israels. One is physical and the other is spiritual.

These two Israels are both in view in Romans 11:25-26.

Right off the bat, in verse 25, we find a warning stating we are not to be ignorant that there is a mystery.

I know this mystery of ignorance cannot refer to physical Israel as being blinded, because time and time again throughout history, they were found to be disobedient and worshiped other gods. Not only have they been blinded by Satan they were also given a delusion by God to believe a lie. I believe the mystery is a reference to 'until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.'

Many Christians have many interpretations of the phrase 'until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,' I believe God has in view, 'until the last of the Gentiles that will have become saved has been saved.'

The view of the condition of Israel as being blind will continue until the last of the Gentiles has been saved, which is the last day John 6:39-40, 44, 54.

Even today, physical Israel bears no fruit, in that, they have not turned to Christ, except for a remnant chosen by grace, and this condition of unbelief will continue till the end.

In the Old Testament, when a woman was found to have committed an adultery, by law, she was to be stoned to death. God could not kill physical Israel for adultery (God was a husband to her and she had many lovers) because Jesus had not yet been born.

In order for God to separate Himself from adulterous Israel He had to divorce her (Jer. 3:8) and had to implement Deuteronomy 24:1-4

Verse 4 reads:

Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife,
after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD:

So, for those who believe God still has a plan for restoring physical Israel at the end, has not really read or exhausted all the scripture texts pertaining to this subject.

The word “so” in Romans 11:26 means “in this manner.” In what manner? In the manner that all Israel (spiritual Israel, consisting of Jew and Gentile believers) will be saved.

Physical Israel cannot be in view Romans 11:26 because God had divorced and cannot take her back again.

dragonfly said:

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,


Paul also mentions the twelve tribes in Acts 26, as if they've never been separated from each other as a unit.

I am wondering about the deeper meaning of the word 'gathering', or 'gathered', as used in the OT when one of the leading characters dies. By that I mean, when Moses wrote 'the gathering of the people', was he using a word which idiomatically expressed that 'the gathering' is about dying?

Genesis 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Genesis 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Genesis 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Deuteronomy 32:50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people.


Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ = gathered unto Christ?

[who are still alive on the earth]
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together [with Him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection... 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


When we die, we finally catch up with Him in the physical sense, although we already live with Him in the spiritual sense.

Click to expand...

I interpret that gathering idea you quoted from the OT as being about their individual families coming together for a memorial or funeral.

The Corinthians and Thessalonians examples are about a symbolic metaphor for those 'in Christ' that have died. In Isaiah 26:14 God is actually talking about the giants as the "dead" there that shall not rise, shall not live. So just as we have the ideas of life and dead for our earthy existence, the same concepts exist in the Heavenly also. Thus 'asleep' is a way to say those who have died in Christ are living and not dead in the Heavenly (recall Luke 20:38).

In Christ said:

The Bible speaks of two Israels. One is physical and the other is spiritual.

Click to expand...

God's Word actually speaks of several.

Israel - all Israel before God rended the kingdom from Solomon's son and gave ten tribes to Jeroboam of Ephraim.

"house of Israel" or "kingdom of Israel" or "Joseph" or "Ephraim" or "Samaria" - all labels used for the northern ten tribed kingdom after God split historical Israel into two separate kingdoms.

"Judah" or "house of Judah" or Jerusalem - put for only the three tribed kingdom of Judah in the south with its capital at Jerusalem; this done after God had given ten tribes to form the northern kingdom of Israel under a king from Ephraim with its capital city at Samaria (see 1 Kings 11 forward).

spiritual Israel - Apostle Paul's concept in Rom.9 which applies especially to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus, but to all believing Israelites of the seed too. This is God's final Israel under Christ Jesus, and is represented by His Church.


Why is it important today to understand the difference between the two separate houses of Israel per Bible history about the seed of the woman? One simple reason is, God gave specific Messages and promises to each one after He split the old Israel kingdom in two parts. It's easy enough to recognize the whole of Israel as a single kingdom all the way up to Solomon's reign, and know which Israel God was speaking to. But after... God split Solomon's kingdom into two separate kingdoms, you will... miss which part of Israel God spoke many things to in much of the OT Books, and some within the NT Books. Your alignments of the prophetic timeline of events can become wrong by not knowing that.

Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, daq.


Sorry, dude. Guess I struck a nerve, eh? Yeah, that's the "meshuggah" I meant. Just the same, I asked it in the form of a question. All you had to do is say, "No."

That was no "character assassination." And, even if I had, that would NOT be "hatred" or "murder." Get a grip! I wasn't attacking you, the person, but I can't even attack the problem, the way you handle the Scriptures?! That's not even reasonable! I love you as a brother; I have no reason not to, and you've never given me a reason to question your commitment to the Messiah. Your quoting of 1 John 3:15 to me implying that I hate you IS offensive to me! And, I CERTAINLY don't deserve you labeling me a "murderer!"

I'm going to give you two things you can count on: First, I will continue to enjoy lively discussions with you (if you will) regarding prophecy, and second, I will continue to question your methodology!

And, for the record, NO, I don't see a bit of problem Scripturally with my 'teaching of "god-men" returning and ruling planet Earth in glorified flesh.'

You simply have forgotten how to LISTEN to the Scriptures in your attempts at cramming them together:

*snip*

Don't let any potential hypercriticism get in your way of finding out the Truth!

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Retrobyter said:

That's the kind of thinking that led to Joseph Smith and his story/claim that God's messenger gave him a special, golden book that only he could see and interpret with those special glasses he claimed he had also been given!

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I did not intend to continue posting in this thread because the OP is no longer here. However, since you have suggested that you must have "struck a nerve" with me I will respond once more simply to inform you that what I stated was not in anger but simply the truth from the Word. That is the way it is in the kingdom of God according to the doctrine of Yeshua. It is not necessary for one to commit physical murder with his hands to be considered a murderer in the kingdom of God. Have you not heard anything I have said since we first spoke? Since that is the doctrine of the Master you will need to take it up with him. I was not here discussing and debating the Scripture by trying to discredit, defame, and silence anyone with attempting to label them whether it be Mormonism, Gnosticism, JWism, Judaism, or any other "ism" which people here seem to love to pin on those with whom they disagree. It is one thing to make mention when someone has clear doctrines that match other belief systems; for instance, there appear to be not a few here that seem to hold to the same practices as Marcion, (i.e. "Marcionism") and to make note of such similarities in doctrine and practices is one thing but to attempt to silence someone by pinning them to such an accusation when the accusation is not even true is an attack on the character of that person. Did I tell anyone here that I have received my message from an angelic messenger as you have insinuated, (the angel Moroni)? Did I tell anyone here that I have received a "special golden book" that "only I could see and interpret" as you have insinuated in your remarks? How ironic that when it comes to what I believe, which comes directly from the Scriptures, you are willing to allegorize and spiritualize into whatever you happen to think is "evil" for the moment. If one works deceitfully so as to silence his brother, through inflammatory and insulting accusations or insinuations, then according to the Spirit the same one is attempting to murder his brother by essentially "slitting his throat" and silence his voice. Yeshua clearly states that every one of us will be judged by our words, (Matthew 12:35-37). Likewise he states that those things which come forth out from the mouth are that which defile the man because those things came from within his heart. And likewise again he states the following:

Matthew 5:21-22 KJV
21. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, [GSN#4469 rhaka] shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, [GSN#3474 moros] shall be in danger of hell fire.

Original Strong's Ref. # 4469
Romanized rhaka
Pronounced rhak-ah'
of Aramaic origin [compare HSN7386]; O empty one, i.e. thou worthless (as a term of utter vilification):
KJV--Raca.

Original Strong's Ref. #3474
Romanized moros
Pronounced mo-ros'
probably from the base of GSN3466; dull or stupid (as if shut up), i.e. heedless, (morally) blockhead, (apparently) absurd:
KJV--fool(-ish, X -ishness).

What I stated to you is a clear warning to all of us from the Master and has nothing to do with you "striking a nerve" or making me angry. The truth simply is what it is, and says what it says; either one believes it, and lives by it, or one does not believe it and his own words will eventually reveal what is in his heart because, once again, "the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21 KJV).

Hi daq,

Your last post is appreciated in this neck of the woods.



Hi In Christ,

Picking up on your belief that Israel's blindness cannot be cured, even though both Jesus and the apostle Paul said, and demonstrate, that it can, who do you think Jesus was prophesying about (or to) when He said '... and recovering of the sight to the blind...' if not to 'physical Israel' in Luke 4:18?

dragonfly said:

Picking up on your belief that Israel's blindness cannot be cured, even though both Jesus and the apostle Paul said, and demonstrate, that it can, who do you think Jesus was prophesying about (or to) when He said '... and recovering of the sight to the blind...' if not to 'physical Israel' in Luke 4:18?

Click to expand...

I too believe the answer to the OP has been given many times over within the thread.

Jesus taught his disciples this same lesson many times and in varying contexts, but Mark 8:22-26 is one which comes to mind.

“Bring a blind man!” which is likened to each one of us here. The objective here for the disciples is to learn they “have eyes” but can’t see Mark 8:18. Therefore if the Gentiles are deaf Mark 7:32, the Jews are blind!!!

Can we all see Paul reasoning upon their blindness in Rom 11:25?

We here are like the crowd looking at Jesus eager to see a miracle performed upon Israel.

BUT did you notice he was taken by the hand out of the city? You see Bethsaida was blind! Matt 11:21; like many here who cannot see.

Some here see "nothing" others see "men walking as trees" - he view perfectly formed men as being "out of proportion!" Distorted view of the disciple. Mk 9:33-34.

After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
(Mark 8:25)

If what we are speaking about is a secret or mystery are we surprised many here cannot see it?

The lesson: “He looked intently and was restored”

We are wasting each others time if we fail to:

- “Look up”
- “Look intently”
- “To see afar off” Heb 11:27

How can I ask you to "see" God's plan with Israel if the Lord has not revealed it?

Arnie could see but Rex was blind; Dragon may perceive it's mystery and Daq may see men walking as trees? Whether this is so, or not, for I don't not fully appreciate your understanding. What is true is that blindness (in part) has come upon the Jew but blindness is also upon the Gentile for great is the apostasy which has blinded the Christian from Israelitish hope.

Purity

Rex ..... yesterday and today I spent some time re-reading this whole thread .... WHEW!!!! .... that's a lot of reading ... almost 600 posts in all .

I admire the way you hold your ground ..... you are a worthy debater and you have never veered offtrack into any strange doctrines

Believe it or not I agree (always have) with much of your position and the majority of your posts ..... as a matter of fact I used to believe exactly as you do ..... that the christian church is the #1 game in town ..... and if Israel or any Jew wants salvation they must join in with us and become part of the Christian church.

That worked just fine providing I simply "rolled over" all the bible content that spoke of future Israel and convinced myself that myself and the church are kinda-sorta-Israel in some allegory or spiritual sense.

Until some years ago a nugget of unfulfilled Israel OT prophecy was fulfilled .... it is actually more of a period of time which has already begun .... and it is profoundly important and is good news for Israel ... it has not been made public yet otherwise I would tell you right here and now .... it will end up in book form and I will see that you get one of the first copies.

The information stands up to all scrutiny .... it is factual .... documented ... provable & scriptural .... it revolves around a couple of verses in Psalm 102 ....

You will arise and have compassion on Zion,
for it is time to show favor to her;
the appointed time has come......
....Let this be written for a future generation,
that a people not yet created may praise the Lord:

We are now "in" that time period (generation) .... God will fulfill some favorable outstanding promises for Israel ..... that is all I can reveal at this time (sorry) .... some interesting aspects to it .... the hand of the miraculous will be obvious .... and it has more to do with God (proving) to all the other nations that chosen Israel is not dead and forgotten (to God) ..... let me repeat .... (I do not think) salvation is the main objective as much as it is more like a profound notice to all the other nations of the world that the Jewish God of Israel is beginning to show his hand again (like he used to do quite often to enemy nations in the OT)

I expect the majority of the Christians in the world will rejoice when they see these favorable things happen to Israel ..... and instantly they will recognize all the scriptures that verify it .... (they have been in front of us all along) ..... (we just did not know where to place them in future prophecy) .... (it is not part of the end-times) .... (more like an interlude before the end-times) .... (thru the years careful scholars have recognized they were unfulfilled .... but did not know where to fit them )

Rex .... I am as christian as you are ..... Jesus Christ is absolutely #1 in all of my personal life with no deviation whatsoever ..... the reason I mention this is because of the following ...

In all the information ..... Jesus does not even pop up once ..... think about that for a minute .... A Jew or an Israeli can read it cover to cover and will accept it readily ..... it will stand up to their scrutiny as well .... it is all from their OT ...... it is their prophets .... their psalms .... their nation .... their God .... it is 100% for Israel.

The most intriguing part is that once the Jew or Israeli read and digest all this (favorable) information ..... the next question on their minds will be ..... where did the information come from ?? .... and guess what ..... it comes from within the Western Gentile Christian Church !!

(My guess) is that God plants that tidbit in their mind so they re-think the Messiah issue .... possibly they will all embrace Christ as a result ..... I do not pretend to know ..... it is just a guess on my part ...... I think God designed it this way .... because if there was even a hint of Christianity in it ... the Jew would never read it period !!! ..... this way the Israeli will read (and believe) the information and Jesus sneaks into their minds after the fact ..... (poor choice of words but you get the point I hope)

Once these events unfold all the Christians will conveniently jump on the bandwagon and proclaim they all could see those outstanding prophecies for Israel all along ...... I say yeah right ... !!! .... it will be the same as when Israel once again became a nation in 1948 all of a sudden every christian became a prophecy expert after 1900 years of pretending Israel was long gone and completely out of the picture.

I am surprised I revealed this much ..... it is only about 5% of the information and I wish I could say more .... but it will be made public in its entirety and completely documented .... that way it cannot be misconstrued .

Like I said Rex .... when the time comes I will forward to you a copy of the book once it is made public ..... I expect folks like Retrobyter will want a copy too .... he is already well on his way to seeing Israel correctly .... as a matter of fact I bet his spirit is quickened just reading this.

There is some profoundly good news in store for Israel ...... and as usual the Christians will be blessed as well .... when God arises and has favor and compassion on His chosen Israel.

Arnie M.

Hi Arnie,

I love the way you ignore the historical facts. Sounds like you're promoting the old man's attachment to its natural moorings.

Is that really what Jesus died for?

Is that really what Romans 6 is about?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for fulfilled prophecy, God's way. Jesus was about: 'My kingdom is not of this world'.


For the inside story, this is essential listening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

dragonfly said:

Is that really what Jesus died for?

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Have you forgotten?

Matt 2:2; John 19:19

The Gospel of his Kingship proclaimed by Gentiles and not used again except by Pilate however the Jews said "We have no king but Caesar"

Dragon, is he the King of the Jews?

What sayest thou?

dragonfly said:

For the inside story, this is essential listening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c

Click to expand...

The inside story is located in the Word of God

Israel the kingdom of God :


The Old Testament kingdom of Israel established under David was the kingdom of God. The various elements of this kingdom were all God’s:

1 The king.

David said: "Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for He hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father He liked me to make me king over all Israel" (1Ch 28:4).

2 The subjects.

The subjects of the nation of Israel were the Jews, of whom God said: "thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut 7:6).

3 The land.

The land of Israel is God’s land: "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is Mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with Me" (Lev 25:23).

4 The capital.

The capital of the kingdom of Israel was Jerusalem, of which the psalmist said: "For the LORD hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for His habitation. This is My rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it" (Psa 132:13,14).

5 The law.

The law operating in Israel was given by God to Moses, who says: "I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD" (Deut 5:5).

The future Kingdom of God on earth

1 The King.
2 The subjects.
3 The land.
4 The capital.
5 The law.

Maybe the forum participants can provide some verses to support 1 - 5 ?

Ooops!

2 The subjects.

The subjects of the nation of Israel were the Jews, of whom God said: "thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut 7:6).

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The problem with the way you make your case, is partly it's lack of chronology and misuse of terminology. You sound like someone who has received a theology somewhere from someone who has convinced you, but you (and probably they also) are hazy enough about the Biblical narrative to have to dig around for verses to support it, without regard for their context.

Your quote from Deuteronomy was not an address to 'the Jews'. God did not choose them as a nation primarily. He chose their forefathers.

Deuteronomy 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. 21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. 22 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

Joshua 24:22
And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.


You might be misunderstanding my purpose in bringing these verses up for attention, so let me explain: there is nothing special about the children of Israel while they behave like sons of Jacob. The 'Israel' which is going to inherit the promises eternally, are those people who turn to the Lord with all the heart (and all their mind and all their soul and all their strength) and receive the removing of the veil from their hearts (the organ of spiritual sight) in Messiah Jesus. The 'nation' part of 'Israel' which matters to God, is that He becomes their spiritual Father through their being born from above.

Hi In Christ,

Picking up on your belief that Israel's blindness cannot be cured, even though both Jesus and the apostle Paul said, and demonstrate, that it can, who do you think Jesus was prophesying about (or to) when He said '... and recovering of the sight to the blind...' if not to 'physical Israel' in Luke 4:18?

Click to expand...

Hello Dragonfly

Luke 4:18

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

So what other nations did Jesus had in mind with the other phrases: “to preach the gospel to the poor,” “to heal the brokenhearted.” and “to preach deliverance to the captives?”

“Recovering of sight to the blind” in biblical terms means to open the eyes of those who are blind to spiritual truths.

In fact, the answer to Luke 4:18 can be found in 1Peter 1:11; 3:19 where we read:

1Peter 1:11

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Peter 3:19

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

In other words, Luke 4:18 is teaching that Jesus spoke in His day, spoke in Isaiah's day, spoke in Moses' day, and so forth.

Hi In Christ,

Thanks for your answer. I do agree the topic is spiritual blindness, for that is what Isaiah was told to prophesy against Israel, as well as spiritual deafness and hearts which were unresponsive to His word. I agree, also, that the word of God opens the ears of the deaf, and brings faith. Romans 10:17.

Have you looked at Isaiah 61:1? Can you see anything about blindness being addressed in those days?



Hi Purity,

Arnie could see but Rex was blind; Dragon may perceive it's mystery and Daq may see men walking as trees? Whether this is so, or not, for I don't not fully appreciate your understanding. What is true is that blindness (in part) has come upon the Jew but blindness is also upon the Gentile for great is the apostasy which has blinded the Christian from Israelitish hope.

Click to expand...

You have a great imagination, that's for sure. How do you know that we are not more Israelite and Jewish than you are, and have the light of the Holy Spirit and see things that you don't yet see? What if we are Gentiles with the light of the Holy Spirit? Does that make us any less one with Christ?

You do know, I believe, that the Spirit gives limited revelation to us all, deliberately, so that we can share our bread with one another and be multiplied (increased) with an appreciation of the bigger picture (of which God only gave each of us a random piece, at the time)?

Prophecies about the twelve tribes of Israel becoming one in Christ have been being fulfilled for two millennia, as they turn to Messiah in repentance. It is not more difficult to be saved if you're a Jew or an Israelite, than if you are a Gentile. They only have to believe into Him, and all the blessings described in the New Testament are theirs - right on the day they turn to Him. I don't see the big hype you're making, in scripture.

dragonfly said:

I don't see the big hype you're making, in scripture.

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The gospel is a "secret" hidden from the natural mind of the flesh (1Co 2:7), but which is revealed by the implantation of the Spirit-Word in the heart and mind of those prepared to humble themselves before the divine wisdom (Eph 1:9).

Your lack of seeing is transparent of a greater problem Dragonfly.

You did not respond...

Have you forgotten?

Matt 2:2 & John 19:19

The Gospel of his Kingship proclaimed by Gentiles and not used again except by Pilate however the Jews said "We have no king but Caesar"

Is your Christ King of the Jews? Or is Caesar your King?