The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

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Purity

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I have to disgree with you on that. The 6th Vial has not been poured out yet, for the great tribulation timing Jesus spoke of has to be in place for that 6th Vial events to happen.

The 6th Vial is timed with the events of the 6th Trumpet, and a portion of the 6th Seal events of Rev.6. That's why the 6th Vial events have the "dragon" and "false prophet" already here on earth, working miracles.


Just keeping to God's Word in Amos as written. But don't forget what He said about the sinners of His people and what they will be saying there, and the event that is pointing to.
Our understanding of the Bible prophecy couldn't be further apart :)

You see I can prove this event here has been and gone, whereas you must think this is yet to be fulfilled?

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (Rev 16:12)

One would need to understand the symbology and the reason for the event. You would also be required to understand the Kings of the East and their way prepare and why it was necessary.
But if you lack historical events to interpret all those chapters proceeding Rev 16 then your evidence is yet future, even though Yahweh's plan is being fulfilled in the earth yesterday, today and tomorrow.



Shabbat shalom, Purity.


Why are you asking these questions in this manner? Anyway, yes, I can.
For the same reason I now must correct the content below. This forum talks over so many passages without defining their meaning.

The "tabernacle of David" is "cukat Daviyd" and "cukat" is the construct state form of "cukah" or as most Jews will write it, "sukkah." That is the singular form, and the plural form is "sukkot," because it is a feminine word. That's the same as "Sukkot" the holiday, the Festival of Booths, where all Isra'el was to go to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) and camp out in the streets once a year. It's a HUT or a SHELTER that is quick and easy to build. Thus, it is Daviyd's shelter!
The Greek for "tabernacle" is skenen, tent, signifying a lowly building, perhaps representing the fallen state of the great temple of the past. Historically the "tabernacle of David" denotes the dominion established upon the basis of the Davidic covenant (2Sam 7), in which God's laws were respected, and His worship instituted.

Prophetically, it points to the New Covenant, the inclusion of Gentiles in the Hope of Israel without the barriers of the Mosaic tabernacle.

Isaiah had expected Gentile converts to come to Jerusalem to learn God’s ways so that they might walk in them.

(Importance of understanding prophecy correctly!)

But Isaiah also spoke of the Gentiles' persistence as nations whose salvation did not destroy their national identities (cf Isa 2:4; Isa 25:6-7). Likewise, Amos spoke of 'the remnant of men' (LXX, DSS) in the last days when 'David's fallen tent' would be rebuilt as being 'all the Gentiles who bear my name' and whose continuance as Gentiles was understood. In the end times, James [Acts 15:17] is saying, God's people will consist of two concentric groups. At their core will be restored Israel (ie, David's rebuilt tent); gathered around them will be a group of Gentiles (ie, 'the remnant of men') who will share in the Messianic blessings but will persist as Gentiles without necessarily becoming Jewish proselytes. It is this understanding of Amos' message, James insisted, that Peter’s testimony has affirmed, the result being that the conversion of Gentiles in the last days should be seen not as proselytizing but in an eschatological context. James' quotation of Amos 9:11-12 is both textually and exegetically difficult. As given in Acts, the text of v 12 deviates from the MsTx and agrees with the LXX in reading 'they will seek' (Gr 'ekzetesosin') for 'they will inherit' (Heb 'yiresu'), in reading 'of men' (Gr 'ton anthropon') for 'of Edom' ('edom'), and in treating 'the remnant' (Gr 'hoi kataloipoi') as the subject of the sentence rather than its object. It would have been impossible, in fact, for James to have derived his point from the text had he worked from the MsTx. On the other hand, the text of v 11 here differs from the LXX in reading 'after this' (Gr 'meta tauta') for 'in that day' (Gr 'en te hemera ekeine'), in reading 'I will return and rebuild' (Gr 'anastrepso kai anoikodomeso') for 'I will raise up' (Gr 'anasteso'), in reading 'I will restore' (Gr 'anorthoso') for 'I will raise up' (Gr 'anasteso'), and in omitting the clause 'and I will rebuild it as in the days of old' (Gr 'kai anoikodomeso auten kathos hai hemerai tou aionos'). Focusing on the quotation's difference from the MsTx and essential agreement with the LXX, many commentators have complained that 'the Jewish Christian James would not in Jerusalem have used a LXX text, differing from the Heb original, as scriptural proof,' and have therefore concluded, 'It is not James but Luke who is speaking here' (Haenchen, 'Acts of the Apostles' 448). But while the text of Amo 9:11-12 differs from the MsTx in meaning and the LXX in form, 'it is exactly identical with...some attested readings of the DSS.
 

veteran

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Purity said:
Our understanding of the Bible prophecy couldn't be further apart :)

You see I can prove this event here has been and gone, whereas you must think this is yet to be fulfilled?

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (Rev 16:12)

One would need to understand the symbology and the reason for the event. You would also be required to understand the Kings of the East and their way prepare and why it was necessary.
But if you lack historical events to interpret all those chapters proceeding Rev 16 then your evidence is yet future, even though Yahweh's plan is being fulfilled in the earth yesterday, today and tomorrow.
I'll let others here decide for themselves as to your theory vs. what the actual event context is on the 6th Vial, which I will show below...

Rev 16:12-21
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


The Euphrates river is 'today'... now drying up, per NASA and University of California studies since 2007:
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/02/13/288697/tigris-euphrates-basins-drying-up/

So there's the literal part of the prophecy of the Euphrates drying up being fulfilled today. But what is that idea of the "way of the kings of the east might be prepared"? Christ reveals what that's about later in this Rev.16 chapter, as it is yet to occur. We shouldn't confuse the Greek word hetoimatzo which means 'prepare' at this Scripture time point.

Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev.13 already revealed that "dragon" and what he is to do on earth. Since he is the 2nd beast of Rev.13, and his kingdom is the 1st beast of Rev.13, this shows his kingdom already established on earth at this point.


Rev.16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

There's the working miracles part, and what is it they do on earth? They go to the kings of the earth of the whole world to gather them "to the battle of that great day of God Almighty". What day is that? the Day of The LORD when Christ comes de facto to this earth to defeat His enemies, which just so happens to be the subject Christ shows John next here...

Rev.16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Jesus says He comes "as a thief", which is a direct parallel to Scripture by Apostles Paul and Peter about the day of Christ's coming on the Day of The LORD (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). Jesus is giving this warning to His Church still alive on earth, for He has not gathered His Church yet at this point of the 6th Vial.

Rev.16:16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

To understand who "them" is, one must... pick up the subject from the previous verses about the kings of the east being gathered for "the battle of that great day of God Almighty." This event, Armageddon, is the FINAL battle on earth of this present world. God spoke of it first through His Old Testament prophets (Isa.34; Isa.63; Ezek.38; Zeph.3:8; Joel 3; Zech.14; Micah 4; Zeph.1, etc.).


Rev.16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done"

On this 7th Vial is when God's day of vengeance will occur, when His cup of wrath is poured out upon His enemies on earth, and all of Satan's host great army defeated. That is "day of The LORD" timing, when Christ Jesus will return to this earth.

And the result of that 7th Vial...

Rev.16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(KJV)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Purity.

I'm going to put my words in among yours with mine in purple.

Purity said:
...

For the same reason I now must correct the content below. This forum talks over so many passages without defining their meaning.


The Greek for "tabernacle" is skenen, tent, signifying a lowly building, perhaps representing the fallen state of the great temple of the past. Historically the "tabernacle of David" denotes the dominion established upon the basis of the Davidic covenant (2Sam 7), in which God's laws were respected, and His worship instituted.

No, frankly, the Greek for "tabernacle" is "skeenee" spelled sigma-kappa-eta-nu-eta. An eta is a "long-E" that sounds like "AY" in "BAY" while the epsilon is a "short-E" that sounds like the "E" in "BED." I use a transliteration scheme that employes "ee" for eta and "e" for epsilon. The fact that the nominative form ends in an eta tells us that this is a feminine word of the first declension. It's the accusative form of this word that ends in an eta-stigma. The word may be used to translate the Old Testament word "ohel," for the Tent in which Daviyd placed the Ark of the Covenant after he had recovered it from the P'lishtiym (the Philistines). And, it could refer to the Hebrew word "mishkaan" which means a "tent with wooden walls," but never for the Temple, which was a proper building. That was almost always called "Beiyt Elohiym," or the "House of God."

Daviyd DID live at times in an "ohel," for we read in 1 Samu'el 17:54...

1 Samuel 17:54

54 And David took the head of the Philistine, and brought it to Jerusalem; but he put his armour in his tent.
KJV

He KEPT the huge armor of haP'lishtiy Golyat (Goliath) as a souvenir!

Prophetically, it points to the New Covenant, the inclusion of Gentiles in the Hope of Israel without the barriers of the Mosaic tabernacle.

Isaiah had expected Gentile converts to come to Jerusalem to learn God’s ways so that they might walk in them.

(Importance of understanding prophecy correctly!)

But Isaiah also spoke of the Gentiles' persistence as nations whose salvation did not destroy their national identities (cf Isa 2:4; Isa 25:6-7).

You're assuming MUCH in your allegorical scheme. Where is your proof that it might refer to the New Covenant?! Book, chapter and verse, please! Whereas Daviyd's fallen tent might be figurative and represent something; it's CERTAINLY not THAT! Daviyd's ohel was His place of residence (at least for a time) and housed also his wives and children. Thus, it could be representative of his FAMILY and possibly of his inheritance they would share, but anything more than that is PURE SPECULATION and PURE FANTASY!!!

Likewise, Amos spoke of 'the remnant of men' (LXX, DSS) in the last days when 'David's fallen tent' would be rebuilt as being 'all the Gentiles who bear my name' and whose continuance as Gentiles was understood.

NO! That, too, is just so much conjecture based on a poor translation of the prophecy God spoke through `Amowc! It doesn't matter that 72 priests and scribes thought the LXX was an adequate translation of the Hebrew Tanakh into Greek! All it takes is for "one bad apple to spoil the barrel!" With 72 MEN, the odds are INCREASED that one of them would be a "bad apple," that is, a poor translator! I'm not even saying that such a translator would do it on purpose, but MISTAKES HAPPEN!

Here's how I know that it is a bad translation of the prophecy of `Amowc: CONTEXT!


Amos 1:6-12
1:6 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom:
7 But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:
8 And I will cut off the inhabitant from Ashdod, and him that holdeth the sceptre from Ashkelon, and I will turn mine hand against Ekron: and the remnant of the Philistines shall perish, saith the Lord God.
9 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Tyrus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they delivered up the whole captivity to Edom, and remembered not the brotherly covenant:
10 But I will send a fire on the wall of Tyrus, which shall devour the palaces thereof.
11 Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:
12 But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.
KJV

And in ALL these places, the name "Edowm" is spelled EXACTLY THE SAME AS IN 9:11!

In the end times, James [Acts 15:17] is saying, God's people will consist of two concentric groups. At their core will be restored Israel (ie, David's rebuilt tent); gathered around them will be a group of Gentiles (ie, 'the remnant of men') who will share in the Messianic blessings but will persist as Gentiles without necessarily becoming Jewish proselytes. It is this understanding of Amos' message, James insisted, that Peter’s testimony has affirmed, the result being that the conversion of Gentiles in the last days should be seen not as proselytizing but in an eschatological context.

NO! Just because the LXX translates the first part of the verse that way, it is the SECOND part of the verse to which Ya`aqov (James) was referring, and THAT was the part that was the reason for the quotation, the part I have underlined in the following:


Acts 15:4-31
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the LORD, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
KJV

James' quotation of Amos 9:11-12 is both textually and exegetically difficult. As given in Acts, the text of v 12 deviates from the MsTx and agrees with the LXX

in reading 'they will seek' (Gr 'ekzetesosin') for 'they will inherit' (Heb 'yiresu'),
in reading 'of men' (Gr 'ton anthropon') for 'of Edom' ('edom'), and
in treating 'the remnant' (Gr 'hoi kataloipoi') as the subject of the sentence rather than its object.

It would have been impossible, in fact, for James to have derived his point from the text had he worked from the MsTx.

On the other hand, the text of v 11 here differs from the LXX

in reading 'after this' (Gr 'meta tauta') for 'in that day' (Gr 'en te hemera ekeine'),
in reading 'I will return and rebuild' (Gr 'anastrepso kai anoikodomeso') for 'I will raise up' (Gr 'anasteso'),
in reading 'I will restore' (Gr 'anorthoso') for 'I will raise up' (Gr 'anasteso'), and
in omitting the clause 'and I will rebuild it as in the days of old' (Gr 'kai anoikodomeso auten kathos hai hemerai tou aionos').

Focusing on the quotation's difference from the MsTx and essential agreement with the LXX, many commentators have complained that 'the Jewish Christian James would not in Jerusalem have used a LXX text, differing from the Heb original, as scriptural proof,' and have therefore concluded, 'It is not James but Luke who is speaking here' (Haenchen, 'Acts of the Apostles' 448).

This seems HIGHLY unlikely! It would be a real stretch since Lukas is not even MENTIONED in the passage!

But while the text of Amo 9:11-12
differs from the MsTx in meaning and
(differs from) the LXX in form,
'it is exactly identical with...some attested readings of the DSS.

So, what's the problem? One should just conclude that the text is taken from the Dead Sea Scrolls or copies of the DSS that WERE PRESERVED painstakingly at Kumran between 100 and 250 B.C! Those copies could EASILY have been still in circulation during the first century A.D!

By the way, is this last paragraph original work or was it copied from someone else? If it's original with you, I'M IMPRESSED!
 

Purity

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I'll let others here decide for themselves as to your theory vs. what the actual event context is on the 6th Vial, which I will show below...

Rev 16:12-21
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.


The Euphrates river is 'today'... now drying up, per NASA and University of California studies since 2007:
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/02/13/288697/tigris-euphrates-basins-drying-up/
Veteran

Do you believe Rev 16 is speaking to a literal drying up of the river?

Can you not bring this event back to the Hope of Israel?

Purity
 

veteran

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Purity said:
Veteran

Do you believe Rev 16 is speaking to a literal drying up of the river?

Can you not bring this event back to the Hope of Israel?

Purity
You mean, does God ACTUALLY link literal physical events like that within His prophecies? Yes, He does, as signs of things coming to pass, or getting ready to come to pass.

You see, there's more to that Rev.16:12 prophecy of the Euphrates drying up, and the way of the kings of the east being prepared. There's the event of Rev.9:12-16 with the loosing of the four angels bound at the river Euphrates, which is symbolic for the start of the tribulation events. The northern border God gave to Israel went as far as the Euphrates river. It is a symbolic border between God's people and Satan's host used in this manner in Revelation. The loosing of the four angels prepared for a certain hour, day, month, and year, is an expression for the start of the "great tribulation" period.
 

Purity

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You mean, does God ACTUALLY link literal physical events like that within His prophecies? Yes, He does, as signs of things coming to pass, or getting ready to come to pass.

You see, there's more to that Rev.16:12 prophecy of the Euphrates drying up, and the way of the kings of the east being prepared. There's the event of Rev.9:12-16 with the loosing of the four angels bound at the river Euphrates, which is symbolic for the start of the tribulation events. The northern border God gave to Israel went as far as the Euphrates river. It is a symbolic border between God's people and Satan's host used in this manner in Revelation. The loosing of the four angels prepared for a certain hour, day, month, and year, is an expression for the start of the "great tribulation" period.
Veteran, you have a few things going on here.

I appreciate your first point and agree God can hide these natural events within His prophecies. Its nice to agree.

Show me how you define this tribulation event? You say its symbolic - reveal to me the symbology.

I am all ears :)
Shalom, Purity.

I'm going to put my words in among yours with mine in purple.
Greetings Retro, I am midway through a series of studies I will be presenting over the next four weeks. For this reason I cannot responds as thoroughly to your post as it deserves.

Please hold me to this post and do not let this one slip! You make some pertinent points which speaks to the OP.

Purity
 

veteran

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Purity said:
Veteran, you have a few things going on here.

I appreciate your first point and agree God can hide these natural events within His prophecies. Its nice to agree.

Show me how you define this tribulation event? You say its symbolic - reveal to me the symbology.

I am all ears :)
I never said the great tribulation itself which Jesus taught is symbolic, it will be a literal event on earth. I was covering Revelation symbols that point out it taking place within the last three trumpet timing.

It's those events in Revelation about the Euphrates that are symbols for it. If you study those Scriptures line upon line and get the flow of it, then you should know what I'm talking about.

The Rev.9 Scripture is a bit more difficult because most do not see how the locusts event is associated with the Book of Joel prophecies for the end. Most think the 200 million horsemen of Rev.9 is the final battle of Armageddon when it is actually given within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Armageddon doesn't occur until the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, because right after that last trumpet Christ is shown reigning (per Rev.11). So all one need do is keep to the order of events per those last three trumpets to understand the Euphrates being used as a metaphor there for the tribulation timing.

Thusly --
Rev.9 use of Euphates as a symbol = the symbolic border between God's people and Satan's host being loosed = start of the great tribulation time upon God's people.

Rev.16 use of Euphrates as a symbol = that symbolic border dried up so the kings of the east are gathered against Israel in prep for the final battle at Christ's coming, the battle of Armageddon = tribulation time getting ready to end.
 

Purity

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Purity.

No, frankly, the Greek for "tabernacle" is "skeenee" spelled sigma-kappa-eta-nu-eta. An eta is a "long-E" that sounds like "AY" in "BAY" while the epsilon is a "short-E" that sounds like the "E" in "BED." I use a transliteration scheme that employes "ee" for eta and "e" for epsilon. The fact that the nominative form ends in an eta tells us that this is a feminine word of the first declension. It's the accusative form of this word that ends in an eta-stigma. The word may be used to translate the Old Testament word "ohel," for the Tent in which Daviyd placed the Ark of the Covenant after he had recovered it from the P'lishtiym (the Philistines). And, it could refer to the Hebrew word "mishkaan" which means a "tent with wooden walls," but never for the Temple, which was a proper building. That was almost always called "Beiyt Elohiym," or the "House of God."

Daviyd DID live at times in an "ohel," for we read in 1 Samu'el 17:54...
I tend to agree with you for the context of Acts 15 and Amos 9 is one of rebuilding "tents", because later in Amos 9 the context here is the "people" abiding in the land forever and not the rebuilding of a literal temple.

You would appreciate when the Apostle drew on these prophecies they were not limiting their thoughts to the selected text alone, but taking into consideration the entire passage, chapter, if not book.

For this to take place "I WILL PLANT ISRAEL IN THEIR OWN LAND, NEVER AGAIN TO BE UPROOTED FROM THE LAND I HAVE GIVEN THEM" they would require many "ohel" to live in their land. After the destruction of Ezek 37,38 the Israelites (Judah) will put roots down in the Promised Land and never have to leave it again (cf Gen 13:14-15; Gen 17:7-8; Deut 30:1-5; 2Sam 7:10; Jer 30:10-11; Eze 37:25; Joe 3:17-21; Mic 4:4-7; Zec 14:11).

And in keeping with the mibor prophets message Israel will not fear exile anymore; Amos 4:2-3; Amos 5:5; Amos 5:27; Amos 6:7; Amos 7:11; Amos 7:17; Amos 9:4) but would be secure from every enemy (Lev 26:7-8; Deut 28:7; Deut 28:10).

Rom 11:25; Acts 15:16 and Amos 9:7,8 are speaking to the same future event in relation to natural Israel and the fulfilment of Yahweh's (Israel's true God) promise to them.

While I believe a literal temple will be established in the Kingdom Age these passages certainly are weaker evidence for such.



You're assuming MUCH in your allegorical scheme. Where is your proof that it might refer to the New Covenant?! Book, chapter and verse, please! Whereas Daviyd's fallen tent might be figurative and represent something; it's CERTAINLY not THAT! Daviyd's ohel was His place of residence (at least for a time) and housed also his wives and children. Thus, it could be representative of his FAMILY and possibly of his inheritance they would share, but anything more than that is PURE SPECULATION and PURE FANTASY!!!
The allegorical scheme (Gen 21 & Gal 4) is the foundation to Bible Truth. Ishmael (natural Israel) is yet to receive his blessing - to this you must agree. Paul taught and understood this allegory so surely these things are not hidden from you?

Question: If David's tent will be rebuilt as you suggest and Amos 9 comes to pass in Israel, how will David once more reign in their midst? If the people are united in the land never to be removed are they under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant?

Now the writing of the New Covenant upon their hearts would have been sought by the circumcision party [Acts 15:1]. Did they receive the New Covenant upon their hearts?

The certain men were they not those Pauls speaks off in Gal 2:4? Neither doe Luke refer to them as Brethren in Matt 12:50 ; Matt 28:10! We are speaking about Jude 1:4 are we not? These "certain men" are not the fulfilment of Jer 31:33 that is for such and not part of the allegory of Ishmael!

The argument presented in Acts 15 would have been immediately apparent to the Jewish Council. James said that Amos predicted that when the Lord would come back to re-establish the habitation of David. To this you must agree for the Jew longed for this day, however they also would have known from the record ONLY those who sought after Him with a pure heart (Jew first) would also include 'Gentiles upon whom my name is called'

The driving force of James argument in Acts 15 is that God, knows all His works from the very beginning, He has predicted through Amos that when Jesus comes back to this earth to set up His kingdom He will then find awaiting Him, not only believing Jews, but also 'Gentiles upon whom my name is called,' this fact of prophecy should enable His people to understand the fact of experience, that Peter and Paul have described, that God has received Gentiles into HIs ekklesia, by giving them the Holy Spirit, without requiring that they first become Jews by being circumcised. The time of making proselyte's is over! '

Remember the context here is whether Gentile should be circumcised!

The quotation from Amos, is describing the situation which will arise when Jesus Christ returns to set up His kingdom, its logical! That the council should decide that it wasn't necessary for new Gentile converts to be circumcised, becoming Jews after the flesh.

The New Covenant spoke to spiritual circumcision of the heart did it not?

Now does this fits precisely with how James introduces the quotation from Amos?

'After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which is fallen down.' The logical extension is Jer 31:33, for you cannot say the OT Covenant will be rewritten upon their hearts in that day, surely not!

Amo 9:11 begins:

'In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen.'

The words 'After this I will return and' are not in the Hebrew of the book of Amos, nor in the LXX translation.

Doubtless James quoting from Amos 9:11-12 in its context!

Its essential you get this!

Amos 9 & Acts 15 to this day is unfulfilled prophecy for the great prosperity and happiness which God's people "are" to enjoy when He again plants them (natural Israel) upon their land has not yet taken place.

So its not a matter of stretching the allegory but applying a contextual consideration to both passages, understanding those events to take place after the Gentile Age has concluded.

1. Certain events will occur post the return of Christ to the earth
2. Christ will return and set up his kingdom
3. He will come to an earth on which there will be Gentiles who are called by his Name
4. He is even now continuing the process which he began when he sent Peter to the house of Cornelius, namely, visiting the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his Name.
5. When He returns He will also find awaiting him, and seeking him, Christians who have not ceased to be Gentiles.
6. The Jew will perish or be converted
7. Those converted will receive Jer 31:33 and what is left of Israel will take part in Amos 9 under their spiritual David.

Of course the promises to David is at the heart of James speech.

Afterall the nation of Israel had become a kingdom in the land of promise under David rule - you recall God's words to David?

"I will set up thy seed after thee . . . and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be My son" (2Sa 7:12-14). These promises too were affirmed by God by covenant and oath (Psa 89:3,4), and were reiterated by the angel Gabriel at the annunciation of Jesus’s birth (Luk 1:32,33).

Note: Jacobs descendants ;)

Thankfully we have the assurance of His Prophetical Word to guide us.

2 Peter 1:20


By the way, is this last paragraph original work or was it copied from someone else? If it's original with you, I'M IMPRESSED!

A united work.

This seems HIGHLY unlikely! It would be a real stretch since Lukas is not even MENTIONED in the passage!
You appreciate Luke wrote the Book of the Acts...don't you?
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
The example of Joseph is how he was separated from his brethren, to a foreign land, and having been exalted by God. He represents what would happen to the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" established under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, as the prophecy to his son Ephraim was that he would become "a multutide of nations" (Gen.48). And thus it has been in Asia Minor and Europe when The Gospel went there after it was preached in the holy land.
Hi Veteran,
I actually undestood this one. Maybe the brick isn't so thick. As a radio tech. I like to say that I'm only a half watt, but at least the light bulb seems to be turned on. :D
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Hi Veteran,
I actually undestood this one. Maybe the brick isn't so thick. As a radio tech. I like to say that I'm only a half watt, but at least the light bulb seems to be turned on. :D
You're one of the very few here then with that specific light having lighted up.