Matthew 13's parables.

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HeRoseFromTheDead

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Polt said:
Second, it's inconceivable that first century Christians or Jews would have used a six-pointed star as a religious symbol.
That's true. The hexagram didn't become a symbol of Judaism until the middle ages.

That fish/lamp/hexagram symbol is a modern invention by those, and for those, who want to feel spehshul. I doubt RB can provide us with archaeological evidence to the contrary.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Polt.

Polt said:
First, whatever kind of Jew Jesus was is a totally different kind of Jew than you are.

Second, it's inconceivable that first century Christians or Jews would have used a six-pointed star as a religious symbol.
First, probably, just as YOU are a totally different kind of Christian than they were in the first century!

Second, there IS archaeological evidence: http://www.threemacs.org/themes/jewish/answers.htm, however, there is also some question as to whether the evidence was first century or fourteenth century. Whatever the case, the Orthodox Jews have that evidence under lock and key, just as their ancestors hid the evidence for the early church in Jerusalem in the second and third centuries. However, pictures of the evidence were taken while access was available.

HOWEVER, the "Magen Daveed" or "shield of David" was adopted by the Jews MUCH earlier than that, albeit not exclusively. See Wikipedia's article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David. There are several reasons for its adoption as a "Jewish" (Isra'eli) symbol. First, there are twelve intersections of lines (vavs) representing twelve men, the sons of Ya`aqov (Jacob). Second, there are seven enclosed areas said to represent YHWH in the center and mankind in the six surrounding the one. The six points are also said to be the four compass directions and up and down, symbolizing that God's influence is in ALL directions. As letters, it has been said that the yud and the vav are found in the symbol representing the Y (J) and the V (W) in the name Y'hudah (Judah or Jude or Jew). (The vav as a Hebrew letter is technically a consonant pronounced as either a V or a W, but when pointed with a dot above is close to our long O sound, often written "ow," and when pointed with a dot in its "center," under the hook and halfway down on the left side, is close to our long OO sound as in "moon," often written "uw.")

So, regardless the evidence or the lack thereof, some will still argue vehemently on both sides. I can already guess which way you lean.

Shalom, CRFTD.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's true. The hexagram didn't become a symbol of Judaism until the middle ages.

That fish/lamp/hexagram symbol is a modern invention by those, and for those, who want to feel spehshul. I doubt RB can provide us with archaeological evidence to the contrary.
Well, the earliest use of the hexagram by the Jews FOR WHICH WE HAVE ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE was 1008 A.D. (see the above links), but traditionally, it is said to have been used FAR longer than that, but - hey! - what does it matter? You wouldn't even accept such a symbol as being legit even if YOU FOUND IT in your OWN archaeological dig on a piece of wood that you could carbon-date to the first century!

So, believe what you want to believe. There were MANY such markings, including the fish symbol, in the catacombs when the early believers were in hiding from the Roman persecutions. Even the symbol of the fish with the word "Ichthus" (or "Ichthys") in the middle that is spelled "Iota-Chi-Theta-Upsilon-Stigma," an acrostic for "Ieesous Christou Theou Huiou Sooteer," translating word-for-word to "Jesus Christ of-God Son Savior" meaning "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior," has been found there. So, why is it so hard for you to accept?

Regardless, the symbol is not the ONLY thing that suggests a FAR different community for the early believers than the modern-day "church" or "Church!" The ekkleesia of the first century is at best only VAGUELY similar to the modern entity!

In any case, guys, this rabbit-trail has gotten FAR off course! Let's see, .... what were we talking about? Hmmm.... OH, YES! Yeshua`s parables of Matthew 13, which are about the Kingdom in the FUTURE, not about the "Church" in the present!
 

daq

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The Seven Lamp Menorah depicts the Magen David even from before his time. The pure beaten Oil Olive represents the Spirit which is INSIDE the seven lamps of the Menorah, (Re: Revelation 1). The holy Oil Olive is therefore the Spirit in typology. Thus the Menorah has six "wings" to the one like Seraphim. The Menorah of Moshe was not "flat" as generally depicted but rather like the Burning Thornbush which Moshe was shown in Mount Horeb the Mountain of Elohim:

hammered-gold-menorah2.gif


Careful not to blaspheme!
The foolish anthropon soon parts with his soul ~ Lukas 12:12-20 :lol:
Six wings, six wings to the one! :)
 

daq

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Probable modern perversion
This Menorah was found in Hamat near Tiberias and is on display at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. The following page, (which I use here simply because it was the first that came up in a quick search) states that this limestone Menorah is dated 4th-5th Century CE but I have seen others where I remember it was dated even earlier. However, the point made is please take a close look at the design carved in stone: it is a bush or likened unto "THE BRANCH" (MESSIAH).

Hammat_Tiberias_Menorah.jpg

http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Hammat_Tiberias_Menorah,_4th-5th_century_CE

Exodus 3:1-2 KJV
1. Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Exodus 25:37-40 KJV
37. And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.
38. And the tongs thereof, and the snuffdishes thereof, shall be of pure gold.
39. Of a talent of pure gold shall he make it, with all these vessels.
40. And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.


Do you not know the difference between Sinai and Horeb? Hagar and Sarah? Jerusalem of below and Jerusalem of above? The two Covenants which are two cities which are two allegories? Again, be careful you do not blaspheme not only the very New Covenant which you claim to uphold but likewise the Mal'ak of YHWH that appeared unto Moshe in the Burning Thornbush. The pattern of the Menorah was shown to Moshe at Horeb, the Mountain of Elohim, when the Mal'ak of YHWH appeared to him in the Burning Thornbush. And since the OP did ask to get back onto the topic, (though it was he that raised this one) I will leave it alone with these comments.
:)
 

Polt

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daq said:
The Seven Lamp Menorah depicts the Magen David even from before his time. The pure beaten Oil Olive represents the Spirit which is INSIDE the seven lamps of the Menorah, (Re: Revelation 1). The holy Oil Olive is therefore the Spirit in typology. Thus the Menorah has six "wings" to the one like Seraphim. The Menorah of Moshe was not "flat" as generally depicted but rather like the Burning Thornbush which Moshe was shown in Mount Horeb the Mountain of Elohim:
Moshe? Wasn't she that black girl with a show on the Disney channel a few years ago?

Exodus 25 describes the Menorah as flat (three branches to one side, three to the other). You won't be happy until you prove God's people are pagans, by hook or by crook.
 

veteran

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Shalom, veteran.

First, I am not "strongly influenced by Jewish religious traditions." I am strongly influenced by the JEW Yeshua` haMashiach, or as you might say, "Jesus the Christ."
---------------------

Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a JEW. He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage). The meaning of the word 'JEW' no longer simply means one born of Israel from the historical "house of Judah" per OT history (per Josephus). Since the religious traditions of the scribes and Pharisees and foreigner priests from Esau took over in Jerusalem and in the world of Jewry, the word means one who adheres to their system doctrines of JUDAISM.

Thus 'Jewish religious traditions' = JUDAISM, the religion of JEWS. To orthodox Jews one of their own who follows Christ Jesus is no longer... a JEW, but instead is an outcast!

So all you're really doing is trying to ride the fence, wanting to keep the vain traditions of your fathers that those 'false Jews' created AFTER the return from Babylon, while also wanting to follow Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ. You cannot do both. You MUST choose.



Second, you wouldn't even RECOGNIZE the original Christianity of the first century! Have you ever seen the Messianic Seal of the first century? It's the same seal we use today, a combination of a fish (head down) below, a menorah above, and the base of the menorah intersects with the tail of the fish to form the "shield of David" ("Magen Daveed"), wrongly called the "star of David."
There you go again, speaking of something you don't understand, trying to force JEW'S traditions onto Christian tradition. Apostle Paul rebuked Peter for separating from Gentiles at table when his brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit. And rightly so. Even the thought of creating a seal to identity believers on Christ specifically born of Judah is a worse kind of separation, since it completely leaves out Gentile believers. It's that same old kind of working that the Judaizers in Paul's day tried to do, the Pharisee converts among the body of Christ in Apostle Paul's days. Those were the same ones that tried to force Gentiles to be circumcised in order to partake in Christ's Salvation (Acts 15). Next thing you'll want to do is go around to all Christian Churches and hang that vain seal as some sort of proof of your assumed ascendency over Gentile Christians, just because you hail from the seed of Israel!

I gurantee you, there are many, many more Gentile Christians that lost knowledge of their heritage from the seed of the "house of Israel" than there are Messiancs. But you won't understand that until Christ's second coming.




Thirdly, there's nothing wrong with the phrase "Judeo-Christian," which I have heard OUTSIDE of Jewish circles from the CHRISTIAN community since I was a kid! There's nothing "paradoxical" about the term, except in YOUR mind. YOU are simply denying the link.
Judeo-Christian is a false categorical label designed to smooth over Gentile Christians into believing Jewish traditions. It's a Judaizer ploy upon unsuspecting Gentile Christians that have yet to understand OT history and the crept in unawares that took over in Jerusalem between Judah's return from Babylon and the time of Christ's first coming. Further, it is because God's Truth handed down through His servant Moses was for ALL ISRAEL, and not just one tribe like Judah (thus 'Judeo'), nor the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that became separated from the GREATER part of Israelites of the ten tribes (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 18).

See, I've studied OT history, and the prophets, and the history of corruptions among the "house of Judah" after their Babylon captivity. The vain religious traditions of the scribes and Pharisees at the time of Christ's first coming was the culmination of that vanity of the crept in unawares from OT history.


The "Jews' religion," as you call it, started at Sinai and has continued consistently throughout the millennia. The "Old Testament," as you call it, was and IS the Jewish Holy Scriptures which were built based on the writings of the Torah of God (what is called "the Pentateuch" or "the Law" by many Christians), penned with Mosheh's (Moses') hand, and to which were added the histories of God's hand working in the lives of Isra'elis down through the years, and the praises and the prophecies of God. It is simply YOUR OPINION that Christianity has nothing to do with "the Jews' religion." It certainly wasn't PAUL'S opinion:

Wrong again. What Apostle Paul called "the Jews' religion" is what he came... OUT of in order to serve Christ Jesus. Read and heed...
Gal 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
(KJV)


That's Apostle Paul comparing the traditions of his fathers as being "the Jews' religion", and by that he persecuted "the church of God" as written there. That makes a clear... distinction between God's Truth through His OT servants vs. the "Jews' religion" which caused Paul to persecute the "church of God".

The traditions and religion of the Jews Apostle Paul was talking about was NOT concerning God's Truth through His OT servants. Instead, it was about the FALSE TRADITIONS that came from corruptions the "house of Judah" suffered in their Babylon captivity, and thereafter. Judah even left the Hebrew language and took up Aramaic instead during their captivity, only returning to it later. The Hebrew ancient manuscript type was changed. And they created a whole separate group of vain traditions through their Babylonian Talmudic writings! That's most likely when their system of Jewish occult mysticism with the Kabbalah started. Some of the people of Esau that became JEWS began to serve in position of high priest!




Therefore, since it IS YOUR OPINION that stands out from the Scriptures, it certainly IS you who needs to get rid of prejudices!
Dream on.

Would you like me to quickly cover Ezra 2 about those who returned with Judah after the Babylon captivity? Or maybe Ezra 9 about Ezra pulling out his hair and crying because of how Judah took wives of the Canaanites during their Babylon captivity, and the leaders of the people being the worst offenders? How about Esther 8 where many foreigners at that time BECAME Jews, for fear of the Jews? That's not even to mention the leftover of Canaanites among Judah like the Kenites, which became SCRIBES among Judah in charge of letters over God's Holy Writ! I could go into Esau's offspring that became Jews also.

That's why it's so silly for a Jew today to TRY and claim ascendency over God's Word against Christ's Church and believing Gentiles. It's because the Jews are made up of so many amalgamations of foreigners that even one who thinks they are born of the seed of Israel very likely is not, but likely a descendent of one of those foreign nations back centuries ago! This is why it is very understandable that God is NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS. NO ONE of ANY one seed can claim ascendency in His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, including a flesh born Israelite!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, D-Polt
Polt said:
Moshe? Wasn't she that black girl with a show on the Disney channel a few years ago?

Exodus 25 describes the Menorah as flat (three branches to one side, three to the other). You won't be happy until you prove God's people are pagans, by hook or by crook.
I hope you enjoy eating crow, because you're going to have to eat a LOT of it! Moshe or Moishe or Mosheh or Mowsheh is the real name of the person YOU call "Moses." As most Hebrew words and names, they don't transliterate easily into English, especially when English is so influenced by Greek, Latin, French, Arabic, German, Spanish, etc. The spelling in Hebrew is most often "mem-vav-shin-hei," although sometimes the vav is dropped. Directly, these consonants are most often rendered as "M-W-SH-H" in English. Hebrew has no vowels in its alefbet; the closest thing is the vowel pointing that was added to help youngsters and immigrants with the pronunciation of unfamiliar words (to the reader) and was introduced in the early Middle Ages.

So, the spelling with vowel pointing becomes "mem-cholem-(with vav or without the vav)-shin-segol-hei," pronounced "MOE-sheh." Don't you think that, when you actually meet him in the future, you might like to get his name right?! It would be like someone who had the English name "James" hearing a Spanish pronunciation as "HAH-mace!" Don't you think he might like to hear his name correctly pronounced? "There's nothing so sweet to the human ear as the sound of one's own name."
 

daq

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Polt said:
Moshe? Wasn't she that black girl with a show on the Disney channel a few years ago?

Exodus 25 describes the Menorah as flat (three branches to one side, three to the other). You won't be happy until you prove God's people are pagans, by hook or by crook.
It depends on what time it is and which "side" of the world you are on. Apparently you are still in the fifteenth century and somewhere on the western side of Europe where the earth is still flat. As for Torah being pagan I was not aware that we had any Gnostic Dualists here in this forum; but, hey, thanx for making it known. You know why they do what they do right? Because they worship the sun but hate the Father. Sorry for your left hand sided shaggy goat luck. :lol:


ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I think daq has a knack for making fruitcakes. His website is filled with recipes - http://sheshbazzardaq.com/
1 Corinthians 1:19-28 KJV
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Olivet Zeytiym
:)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Shalom, veteran.

First, I am not "strongly influenced by Jewish religious traditions." I am strongly influenced by the JEW Yeshua` haMashiach, or as you might say, "Jesus the Christ."
---------------------

Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a JEW. He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage). The meaning of the word 'JEW' no longer simply means one born of Israel from the historical "house of Judah" per OT history (per Josephus). Since the religious traditions of the scribes and Pharisees and foreigner priests from Esau took over in Jerusalem and in the world of Jewry, the word means one who adheres to their system doctrines of JUDAISM.
Thus 'Jewish religious traditions' = JUDAISM, the religion of JEWS. To orthodox Jews one of their own who follows Christ Jesus is no longer... a JEW, but instead is an outcast!

So all you're really doing is trying to ride the fence, wanting to keep the vain traditions of your fathers that those 'false Jews' created AFTER the return from Babylon, while also wanting to follow Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ. You cannot do both. You MUST choose.




There you go again, speaking of something you don't understand, trying to force JEW'S traditions onto Christian tradition. Apostle Paul rebuked Peter for separating from Gentiles at table when his brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit. And rightly so. Even the thought of creating a seal to identity believers on Christ specifically born of Judah is a worse kind of separation, since it completely leaves out Gentile believers. It's that same old kind of working that the Judaizers in Paul's day tried to do, the Pharisee converts among the body of Christ in Apostle Paul's days. Those were the same ones that tried to force Gentiles to be circumcised in order to partake in Christ's Salvation (Acts 15). Next thing you'll want to do is go around to all Christian Churches and hang that vain seal as some sort of proof of your assumed ascendency over Gentile Christians, just because you hail from the seed of Israel!

I guarantee you, there are many, many more Gentile Christians that lost knowledge of their heritage from the seed of the "house of Israel" than there are Messianics. But you won't understand that until Christ's second coming.





Judeo-Christian is a false categorical label designed to smooth over Gentile Christians into believing Jewish traditions. It's a Judaizer ploy upon unsuspecting Gentile Christians that have yet to understand OT history and the crept in unawares that took over in Jerusalem between Judah's return from Babylon and the time of Christ's first coming. Further, it is because God's Truth handed down through His servant Moses was for ALL ISRAEL, and not just one tribe like Judah (thus 'Judeo'), nor the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that became separated from the GREATER part of Israelites of the ten tribes (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 18).

See, I've studied OT history, and the prophets, and the history of corruptions among the "house of Judah" after their Babylon captivity. The vain religious traditions of the scribes and Pharisees at the time of Christ's first coming was the culmination of that vanity of the crept in unawares from OT history.




Wrong again. What Apostle Paul called "the Jews' religion" is what he came... OUT of in order to serve Christ Jesus. Read and heed...
Gal 1:13-14
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
(KJV)


That's Apostle Paul comparing the traditions of his fathers as being "the Jews' religion", and by that he persecuted "the church of God" as written there. That makes a clear... distinction between God's Truth through His OT servants vs. the "Jews' religion" which caused Paul to persecute the "church of God".

The traditions and religion of the Jews Apostle Paul was talking about was NOT concerning God's Truth through His OT servants. Instead, it was about the FALSE TRADITIONS that came from corruptions the "house of Judah" suffered in their Babylon captivity, and thereafter. Judah even left the Hebrew language and took up Aramaic instead during their captivity, only returning to it later. The Hebrew ancient manuscript type was changed. And they created a whole separate group of vain traditions through their Babylonian Talmudic writings! That's most likely when their system of Jewish occult mysticism with the Kabbalah started. Some of the people of Esau that became JEWS began to serve in position of high priest!





Dream on.

Would you like me to quickly cover Ezra 2 about those who returned with Judah after the Babylon captivity? Or maybe Ezra 9 about Ezra pulling out his hair and crying because of how Judah took wives of the Canaanites during their Babylon captivity, and the leaders of the people being the worst offenders? How about Esther 8 where many foreigners at that time BECAME Jews, for fear of the Jews? That's not even to mention the leftover of Canaanites among Judah like the Kenites, which became SCRIBES among Judah in charge of letters over God's Holy Writ! I could go into Esau's offspring that became Jews also.

That's why it's so silly for a Jew today to TRY and claim ascendency over God's Word against Christ's Church and believing Gentiles. It's because the Jews are made up of so many amalgamations of foreigners that even one who thinks they are born of the seed of Israel very likely is not, but likely a descendent of one of those foreign nations back centuries ago! This is why it is very understandable that God is NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS. NO ONE of ANY one seed can claim ascendency in His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, including a flesh born Israelite!
Truly,...

Proverbs 10:19
19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
KJV


I have NEVER heard such a ridiculous claim in all my life! "Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a JEW"?! Are you even listening to your own stupidity?! You even contradicted yourself in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE! "He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage)." First, that PROVES that Yeshua` was/is a Y'hudiy (Jew), born of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah)!

Second, you have a twisted view of Yeshua`s lineage if you think that Miryam's (Mary's) lineage was also "of Levi!" There is no such claim in the Scriptures! To the contrary, the lineage of Miryam given in Luke 3 also notes David through Y'hudah! Miryam and Eliysheva` were relatives - cousins - but not by blood but by MARRIAGE! This is revealed in Hebrews:

Hebrews 5:1-6
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
KJV


Hebrews 7:9-17
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
KJV


Here are some verses that prove that Yeshua` was/is indeed a Jew:

Matthew 2:1-2
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV



Matthew 27:11
11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
KJV


Matthew 27:29

29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
KJV



Matthew 27:35-37
35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36 And sitting down they watched him there;

37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
KJV



Mark 15:2
2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
KJV

Mark 15:8-13
8 And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.
9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
KJV


Mark 15:17-19
17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
KJV


Mark 15:25-26
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
KJV


Luke 23:3
3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.
KJV

Luke 23:36-38
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
KJV


John 4:21-22
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
KJV

John 5:1
5 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
KJV


John 18:33-35
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
KJV


John 18:39-19:3
39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.
19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
KJV


John 19:14
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
KJV


John 19:2-5
2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.
4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.
5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!
KJV


John 19:14-22
14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
KJV


How many ways does it need to be said?! Are you WILLFULLY IGNORANT?

Now, when you said, "He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage). The meaning of the word 'JEW' no longer simply means one born of Israel from the historical 'house of Judah' per OT history (per Josephus). Since the religious traditions of the scribes and Pharisees and foreigner priests from Esau took over in Jerusalem and in the world of Jewry, the word means one who adheres to their system doctrines of JUDAISM," you are once again ASSUMING such a regime and definition change! You just hate Jews! Why don't you just admit that so we can move on? (Moronic!)

I'm not trying to "ride the fence," bro', you're just not willing to LISTEN TO THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL OR YESHUA! You Gentile "Christians" are to be coming together, worshipping God WITH the Jews instead of having your "good ol' boy" exclusive club!!!

Galatians 3:23-4:7
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
KJV


Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


You REALLY NEED to get away from this "either...or" mentality! It's BOTH! This is how we were DESIGNED to worship God, as ONE NEW MAN!

Regardless what YOU want to call "the Jews' religion," being a Jew is NOT a religious claim! It is a HERITAGE! You'd like to claim that there's nothing special about being a Jew, but THERE IS, and the sooner you learn it, the sooner you will grow in the grace of the Messiah Yeshua`!
 

Polt

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Retrobyter said:
I have NEVER heard such a ridiculous claim in all my life! "Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a JEW"?! Are you even listening to your own stupidity?! You even contradicted yourself in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE! "He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage)." First, that PROVES that Yeshua` was/is a Y'hudiy (Jew), born of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah)!
Quoting large portions of the Bible doesn't make you babble biblical, nor your unchristian Dispensation doctrine Christian. So, how about it, try to keep your future posts a little tighter?

You're calling Jesus a Jew as if being a Jews as if that's what makes Jesus worthy. No, Retrobyter being the only begotten Son of God is what makes Jesus worthy.

"Jew" isn't generally used to mean a descendant of Judah. "Jew" usually means a member of Rabbinical Judaism, the religion of people who reject Jesus as the Messiah. So, point in fact, Jesus is not a Jew.

When you call yourself a Jew, you don't mean that you're a descendant of Judah. You mean your great grandmother rejected Jesus. (Don't forget every Jewish denomination in the world and the state of Israel rejects your definition of a Jew. Don't forget, every theologically-sound Christian rejects your definition of a Jew.)

In the Old Testament, Jews were members of the religion waiting for the Messiah who is Jesus. In that respect, Christians are the true Jews. So, point in fact again, Jesus is not a Jew. Christians are the true Jews, circumcised in the heart, not the flesh, through Christ Jesus.

Jesus is not a Jew. Anyone who disagrees either doesn't understand the issue or is a liar.
 

veteran

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.




Truly,...

Proverbs 10:19
19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
KJV


--------------------------------------------------

Should try applying that Proverbs Scripture to yourself sometime, especially since you think your long Scripture cut and pasty posts support your ideas.



I have NEVER heard such a ridiculous claim in all my life! "Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a JEW"?! Are you even listening to your own stupidity?! You even contradicted yourself in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE! "He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage)." First, that PROVES that Yeshua` was/is a Y'hudiy (Jew), born of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah)!
That's right, Jesus was NOT a Jew. Why? Because to be a Jew at the time of His first coming meant adhering to what Apostle Paul called the "Jews' religion". It was VERY obvious Jesus The Christ did NOT adhere to the doctrines of the Jews, that of the scribes and Pharisees and Sadduccees. And since that time, the religion of the Jews has been those very doctrines of the Pharisees. Today it is called Judaism. How much brain power does it require for one to understand that Judaism is NOT Christianity and not of Christ?


Rev 2:9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(KJV)

The Jewish historian Josephus said the title of 'Jew' began with those of the "house of Judah" that returned to Jerusalem from the 70 years Babylon captivity. He said the foreigners living in the land all took that title also. Tell me, HOW can a FOREIGNER be a JEW? Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Jew, how can that be? Per Esther 8, for fear of the Jews, many of the foreigners of that time became... Jews. How can that be? Per Josephus also, many of the Edomites from the family of Esau later became Jews after Israel conquered the nation of Edom. How can an Idumean from Esau be a JEW?

It's simple. It's because all one need do is convert to the "Jews' religion" and that makes them a JEW, even today, which is what Sammy Davis, Jr. did. So going around applying the title of Jew as if it always means one born of Israel is a joke, and to be laughed at.

For you to prove you are a blood-born Israelite, you'd have to have genealogy going all the way back at least to the times of the prophets Ezra and Nehemiah, and it would have to be of one of the 12 tribes of Israel. You want us to honestly believe you can provide that? No problem with Jesus' lineage from Mary, which is why it is given in The New Testament.




Second, you have a twisted view of Yeshua`s lineage if you think that Miryam's (Mary's) lineage was also "of Levi!" There is no such claim in the Scriptures! To the contrary, the lineage of Miryam given in Luke 3 also notes David through Y'hudah! Miryam and Eliysheva` were relatives - cousins - but not by blood but by MARRIAGE! This is revealed in Hebrews:
Since Mary's cousin Elisabeth was a descendent of Aaron, Mary's mother was where the connection to Aaron was. I won't get into the false Talmudic claim of Jesus being a son of fictional Pandera. All the Hebrews 5-7 chapters reveal is that Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah, but that He spiritually is forever a Priest after the order of Melchisedic, which is put for a Heavenly Priesthood above the flesh order. Mary's lineage having a son of Aaron in it no way detracts from Christ as a Priest after the order of Melchisedec. If it did, then Christ being a Son of David born of Judah would also detract from His Office of Priest after the order of Melchisedec.




Here are some verses that prove that Yeshua` was/is indeed a Jew:

Matthew 2:1-2
1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJV
Those men (not born of Israel), coming from the east to see Baby Jesus, would naturally... associate the prophecy with the only people of Israel left in the land that they knew of at the time, those living in the lands of Judea. Did that mean then that only those of the tribe of Judah were meant? Of course not, because the title of Jew first began to be used by those of the "house of Judah" that were separated from the 10 northern tribes of Israel. The "house of Judah" included the tribes of Benjamin and Levi also. Apostle Paul himself said he was a Jew, born of the tribe of Benjamin (Rom.11:1; Acts 21:39). And FOREIGNERS took that title of Jew also! So that Scripture does nothing to establish a Jew meaning genealogy only.


Matthew 27:11
11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
KJV
It's funny that you'd try to use that, since Jesus never agreed to that title others tried to apply to Him. You will not anywhere in Bible Scripture that Jesus claimed that title, or said that He was a Jew.




Matthew 27:29

29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
KJV
More Scripture cut & paste FODDER you're supplying that does nothing to prove your claims. You can't even read simple words like "mocked Him" there, which is what they were doing by calling Him by that title.



Matthew 27:35-37
35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36 And sitting down they watched him there;

37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
KJV
Same thing, that title and sign being just an accusation by Pilate and his helpers. Skip the others and let's get to John's coverage of it...

John 18:33-37
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto Him, "Art Thou the King of the Jews?"
34 Jesus answered him, "Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of Me?"
35 Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered Thee unto me: what hast Thou done?"
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence."
37 Pilate therefore said unto Him, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus answered, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth My voice."
(KJV)

Obvioulsy, Jesus DENIED the title "King of the Jews". He even asked Pilate if he came up with that idea or did others say it to him. To stir up the Jews, Pilate put up the sign with that title on it, and the Jews asked Pilate to take it down. So there, Jesus is NOT "King of the Jews".

So Pilate then asked our Lord Jesus if He were a King. Jesus did not deny that, agreed to that title, then proclaimed His Kingdom was not of this present world. That means He is NOT the "King of the Jews" also.




How many ways does it need to be said?! Are you WILLFULLY IGNORANT?

Now, when you said, "He was a Nazarene born of the tribe of Judah, decendent of David (and of Levi from Mary's lineage). The meaning of the word 'JEW' no longer simply means one born of Israel from the historical 'house of Judah' per OT history (per Josephus). Since the religious traditions of the scribes and Pharisees and foreigner priests from Esau took over in Jerusalem and in the world of Jewry, the word means one who adheres to their system doctrines of JUDAISM," you are once again ASSUMING such a regime and definition change! You just hate Jews! Why don't you just admit that so we can move on? (Moronic!)
I don't hate anyone. I just hate what people do, sometimes myself included, because of the body of sin. Josephus' history of the Jews is pretty clear, even though the Jews mostly deny his writings. Yet he filled the gap of the Jews' history between Old and New Testaments pretty well. The title of Jew originated from the name of the tribe of Judah, and I've already shown you Biblically that title also... applies to others, including foreigners not born of Israel (like Esther 8). Per 1 Chronicles 2:55 the scribes were of the Kenite peoples, a people that lived among the Canaanites. 1 Kings 9 reveals the leftovers from the Canaanites became bondservants to Israel. That's why some of the priests that went captive with the "house of Judah" returned with them after a remnant returned from Babylon (per Ezra 2). That is one of the main reasons why the "house of Judah" LOST possesssion of David's throne and... the kingdom, and the temple, and control in the holy lands, even as it is today. They allowed false ones to creep in, even with the Kenite scribes who were put in charge of keeping the letters of God's Word, and even allowing foreigners to become priests in Israel. The result = corruption of false Canaanite traditions that caused them to reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, so that God moved His vineyard out of their possession and care (parable of the husbandmen in Matt.21).

That's why the last verse of Zech.14, which is for the time of Christ's future thousand years reign, says the following...

Zech 14:20-21
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

Those Canaanites are still mixed in among the Jews today.





I'm not trying to "ride the fence," bro', you're just not willing to LISTEN TO THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL OR YESHUA! You Gentile "Christians" are to be coming together, worshipping God WITH the Jews instead of having your "good ol' boy" exclusive club!!!
Yes, you are trying to ride the fence, especially since you have claimed special status for Jews. The good 'ol boy exclusive club is of the JEWS' making.
 

daq

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Both of you are out of context in much of what you state but the following takes the cake:

veteran said:
Rev 2:9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(KJV)

*SNIP*

That's why the last verse of Zech.14, which is for the time of Christ's future thousand years reign, says the following...
Zech 14:20-21
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

Those Canaanites are still mixed in among the Jews today.
Anyone who claims to be "IN MESSIAH" by default claims at the very least to be a Jew of the heart, (which is having been circumcised in heart). Revelation 2:9 is therefore directed at yourself more so than anyone you might think to use it against because Yeshua is the Lion of Yehudah. If you have a "Christianity" without any form of Judaism whatsoever then you have nothing more than another religion which you made up for yourself somewhere along the way. Likewise it is you who remains the Canaanite on the outside looking in; outside the promises and the commonwealth of the all Israel of YHWH. You do not get to graft Yeshua into you and make him a Canaanite but rather it only works the other way around. :)


Shalom Retrobyter. If we understand that Yeshua is the Word, (Yochanan 1:1) then why does he need to make the claim again? The claim of HaMelek has already been made in the Word:

Zechariah 9:9-17 KJV
9. Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11. As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12. Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13. When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14. And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15. The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16. And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17. For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.


And of course fulfilled in the Word:

Matthew 21:4-5 KJV
4. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5. Tell ye the daughter of Sion,
Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
Both of you are out of context in much of what you state but the following takes the cake:


Anyone who claims to be "IN MESSIAH" by default claims at the very least to be a Jew of the heart, (which is having been circumcised in heart). Revelation 2:9 is therefore directed at yourself more so than anyone you might think to use it against because Yeshua is the Lion of Yehudah. If you have a "Christianity" without any form of Judaism whatsoever then you have nothing more than another religion which you made up for yourself somewhere along the way. Likewise it is you who remains the Canaanite on the outside looking in; outside the promises and the commonwealth of the all Israel of YHWH. You do not get to graft Yeshua into you and make him a Canaanite but rather it only works the other way around. :)


Shalom Retrobyter. If we understand that Yeshua is the Word, (Yochanan 1:1) then why does he need to make the claim again? The claim of HaMelek has already been made in the Word:

Zechariah 9:9-17 KJV
9. Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11. As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
12. Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
13. When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
14. And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15. The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16. And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
17. For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.


And of course fulfilled in the Word:

Matthew 21:4-5 KJV
4. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5. Tell ye the daughter of Sion,
Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
You are quite right about Mattityahu's note about this being the POTENTIAL fulfillment of Z'kharyahu's prophecy, BUT was it indeed the fulfillment of ALL that prophecy? NO! He only fulfilled THAT VERSE! This prophecy showed that He was and would be the SAME Messiah, but they did NOT "rejoice greatly!" Instead, they cried out "Crucify Him!" And, He fulfilled the prophecies about the Suffering and Dying Messiah, rather than the Conquering and Reigning Messiah, at the end of His first advent!

He was fulfilling His OWN prophecy in the parable that He spoke recorded in Luke 19. (I included a few verses ahead to remind you and other readers the timing of this parable.)

Luke 19:1-28

1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him,
This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore,
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. (1000% return!)
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. (500% return!)
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: (0% return!)
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury (interest)?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV


The accounting before the Master, who would at that time be King, is a "parable within the parable," so to speak.

First, let's get the inner parable out of the way:

Verse 26 is confusing to most, but Yeshua` is simply talking about having or not having financial sense (and the governing sense that goes with it) versus having or not having the possession of the money (and the prestige that goes with it). Those whom He could trust with the "mna" test were promoted to government positions under the King.

The reason why the King would give the "mna" to the one with ten is because he could do a LOT MORE WITH IT! He had proven himself to be a shrewd businessman and earned 1000% return on what He was originally given! There was more time for investments, yet! He knew it wouldn't be sitting wrapped in a napkin lying in a hole somewhere! Notice that the King does not TAKE His money back, nor does He relinquish His right to His own money! The man with ten "mnas" is still in a position to INVEST his Master's money!

Now, let's talk about the outer parable:

The parable of the ten pounds (mnas) is repeated (or was said on a different occasion in Yeshua`s life) in Mattityahu's and Yochanan Marcus' Gospels; therefore, the outer parable is seldom taught in today's churches. For that reason, it has fallen out of favor and "missed the boat" as far as the developments of modern theological systems. ... BUT, IT'S STILL THERE IN THE SCRIPTURES! And, it should be taught!

The elements of the outer parable are simple:

The "certain nobleman" = Yeshua` the Anointed (Messiah) of God TO BE King.
The far country = the Father's house
The near country (by way of contrast) = the Land of Isra'el, particularly the Land of Y'hudah.
The ten servants = all those who SHOULD HAVE BEEN the King's subjects when He left and SHALL BE His subjects when He returns (whether or not they WILL BE, in other words, whether they like it or not)! I believe that this specifically refers to the Jews, the descendants of Y'hudah. Why "ten" and not "twelve?" I believe it's because it is the number of all the digits one has on both hands, referring to the totality of the one tribe and does NOT refer to all twelve tribes.

They REJECTED God's CHOICE for their King! Thus, He did NOT fulfill all of Z'kharyahu's prophecy, and He LEFT them to receive His Kingdom ANYWAY! When He returns AS THEIR KING, the Jews will have a choice to make (IF Yeshua` gives them the chance to choose)! One will either personally accept Him as his or her King, or he or she will die! His last words before He turned around and left them, heading for Yerushalayim, are harsh and chilling, but nevertheless HIS WORDS!

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM BEFORE ME!" This occurs AFTER He has returned as Y'hudah's KIng! Yeshua` will clean His own house! They will either accept Him, or they won't be around any longer! Don't you know that there will be some SERIOUS backpedalling among the Jews on that day! Thus, the rest of Z'kharyahu's prophecy will be fulfilled AFTER He has returned, His SECOND Advent.
 

Polt

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daq said:
If you have a "Christianity" without any form of Judaism whatsoever then you have nothing more than another religion which you made up for yourself somewhere along the way.
When Peter was called out by Paul for judaizing, Peter should have used that line. Oh wait, Peter did the right thing and saw his error.

The only form of Judaism that all the world's Jewish denominations agree to is rejecting Jesus.
 

Retrobyter

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Polt said:
When Peter was called out by Paul for judaizing, Peter should have used that line. Oh wait, Peter did the right thing and saw his error.

The only form of Judaism that all the world's Jewish denominations agree to is rejecting Jesus.
Yeah, 1800 years of pressure under those who claim "Jesus Christ" will tend to do that to you.

Face it: "Judaism" is simply belief in the OT Torah (the Pentateuch, Genesis through Deuteronomy), Na'aviym (the Prophets, from Isaiah through Malachi), and K'tuviym (the Writings, all the history books, Psalms, Proverbs, and Daniel, which is considered history more than prophecy) without the Messiah. If they could, they'd still be sacrificing to YHWH Eloheinu ("Jehovah" our God). Their religion and religious practices are NOT founded on a hatred for Jesus; they are founded UPON GOD'S WORD! Most don't even THINK about Jesus! To them, He's just a pagan god! It was CHRISTIANS' JOB to WIN THEM to Yeshua` their Messiah, and CHRISTIANS have FAILED TO DO SO! If they "reject Jesus," it's because of how He was presented (or NOT presented) to them!
 

daq

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Polt said:
When Peter was called out by Paul for judaizing, Peter should have used that line. Oh wait, Peter did the right thing and saw his error.

The only form of Judaism that all the world's Jewish denominations agree to is rejecting Jesus.
Have you never looked into the mirror and said to the one staring back at you, "Get thee behind me"? Two separate Apostles would not openly dispute each other in public before the congregation or elders and the anthropos Paulos would certainly not openly rebuke the one whom Yeshua clearly commanded to go not only to the Circumcision but also to the Uncircumcision when Simon Ioannou received the three commissions, "Feed my arnion-lambkins", "Shepherd my probaton-sheep", "Feed my probaton-sheep". Therefore divide yourself in twain and perhaps then you might understand Petros/Paulos. Otherwise when you stand at the pearly gates expecting to be let in by Paulos you will find Petros. :lol:


Do you not think it strange that Peter is actually the one who states the very things which Paul claims to have confronted him about in front of the apostles and elders? Do you not find it a little odd that Peter is the one whom God made choice among all of them in order that the Gentiles should hear the Gospel by his mouth and believe? Paul states that he walks according to the Spirit and therefore this is the Light of everything he teaches. If we do not understand his writings in this Light, and ourselves walking according to the Spirit of the Word, then it is not possible that the natural mind of the natural man will understand. For the same reason the translators have butchered the passage which you reference from Galatians where not even the names "Kephas" and "Petros" are in agreement in all of the manuscripts.

Acts 15:5-11 KJV
5. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us,
that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
 

Polt

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Retrobyter said:
Yeah, 1800 years of pressure under those who claim "Jesus Christ" will tend to do that to you.
Ironically, apologists for the Jews usually are very unconcerned with driving Muslims away from Christ. Besides, you're bearing false witness against Christians. Every Jewish denomination in the world, and the state of Israel, rejects Jesus (and your claim to being a Jew) because that is the definition of Judaism. It has nothing to do with how you think Christians have treated Jews for 1800 years.



Their religion and religious practices are NOT founded on a hatred for Jesus; they are founded UPON GOD'S WORD!
You are calling Jesus a liar. He was clear that the Jews reject Him because they reject God. He was clear that they don't believe Him because they don't believe Moses and the prophets. And, you're also calling every Jewish denomination in the world, and the state of Israel, liars. They don't believe that being a Jew requires belief in God or practicing the teachings of the Old Testament.

Christians were right for 1800 years. You think everyone is a liar, and you fling around nonsense thinking you're more enlightened than everyone else. Sad.
 

Retrobyter

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Polt said:
Ironically, apologists for the Jews usually are very unconcerned with driving Muslims away from Christ. Besides, you're bearing false witness against Christians. Every Jewish denomination in the world, and the state of Israel, rejects Jesus (and your claim to being a Jew) because that is the definition of Judaism. It has nothing to do with how you think Christians have treated Jews for 1800 years.




You are calling Jesus a liar. He was clear that the Jews reject Him because they reject God. He was clear that they don't believe Him because they don't believe Moses and the prophets. And, you're also calling every Jewish denomination in the world, and the state of Israel, liars. They don't believe that being a Jew requires belief in God or practicing the teachings of the Old Testament.

Christians were right for 1800 years. You think everyone is a liar, and you fling around nonsense thinking you're more enlightened than everyone else. Sad.
Well, you're right about Christians driving Muslims away from the Messiah as well, and I'm not "bearing false witness against Christians," bro'; it's public knowledge! I'm bearing no more "false witness" than did Rev. John Foxe in his Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Those who called themselves "Christians" were downright EVIL during the Inquisitions, Crusades, and Pogroms, regardless whom they attacked! They not only attacked the Jews and Muslims but also attacked other "heretical faiths," such as the Waldensians, the Albigenses, the proponents of the Reformation, the Huguenots, and many other groups and individuals down through the years! You don't have to identify with them, but they DID exist and persecuted MILLIONS through the last two millennia.

I'm "calling Jesus (Yeshua`) a liar?" "I don't think so, Tim!" First of all, Yeshua`s arguments with the P'rushiym (Pharisees), who were SOME of the Y'hudiym (Jews), was a private matter that He wouldn't have shared with the Goyim (Gentiles), because it was not "meet to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs!" It would have been NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!

Secondly, His beef was not with all Jews, but was with THEIR LEADERS who were self-absorbed and were publicity seekers! They not only believed their own press; they GENERATED their own press and took pride in it!

Christians were NOT "right for 1800 years!" What? Are you meshuggah (crazy)?! They'd be lucky to be right a DAY! Frankly, everyone IS a liar! "Let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!" (Romans 3:4)

What is really "sad" is how you continue to refuse to accept that Yeshua` was/IS a Jew!