Does man posses a "free will" before salvation?

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Angelina

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It is obvious that mankind has a free will...especially since the fall of man because he is now able to make distinctions based on what has been released through the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He must make a choice whether he desires to follow God or the desires of his own heart. When he makes the decision that he wants to follow God...God opens every door for that to happen.
 

KingJ

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Agreed. If man did not possess free will before salvation, then we would already be in heaven or hell. There would simply be no need for this phase in the flesh on earth.
 

lukethreesix

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No, I am not a Calvinist. I oppose such doctrines. However, he did have one thing correct: God is sovereign. God is not dependent upon us. God does not need our approval for salvation. God does not "hope". God is not in heaven "crossing his fingers" hoping Jesus "might" save people. Jesus did not come to save only "some" or a "few", he came to save all. That is Gods will, Gods will be done. Jesus will accomplish the mission the father gave him: save the world. The world (kosmos) will be saved (redeemed, restored).
 

KingJ

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Sorry I forgot, you are a universalist. We have more in common...but I think you have too much wishful thinking :p.

Taking someone out of hell is over riding their free will to reject God. Some people just don't want to be with God. God separates the wolves and the lambs.

Would you say the devil wants to live wth / serve God? Is the devil suffering at the moment?
 

lukethreesix

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I believe we struggle with evil. I don't believe God does. God is not at war "hoping" to win some lose some...He has got it all under control. I believe all of creation will be restored...even Satan!
Have you ever seen the picture of Jesus and Satan arm wrestling? Church theology teaches that each human soul is being fought for, Jesus trying to win that soul and Satan trying to deceive it keeping lost. Well, if that's the case and each soul is an arm wrestling match between Jesus and Satan, then who ultimately wins? Doesn't Satan win more souls? Does Jesus end up with a "few" and Satan keeps most of creation in sin, pain and regret? How can we call Jesus victorious? If Jesus purchased all on the cross, will he not receive all for which he suffered? His blood, sweat and tears paid for all, all belong to him.
 

KingJ

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We don't all struggle with evil. Only those that hate sin, struggle with evil. Huge difference between resting in evil and struggling with it.

That arm wrestling pciture is un-scriptural imho. The devil mocks and laughs at God's pain and sadness each time a soul continues willingly in mortal sin.

The devil will never willingly serve God. You surely cannot believe that. God forever loves the devil and all those with him as His grace and mercy endures forever and ever. But He is good forever and ever too. As a result He will never over ride their free will to not serve / submit to Him. I know you think it paints a better picture of God, but it doesn't.

However, your thinking of God is 'sound' in the sense that if there was any hope that soemone would willingly serve Him, they be in heaven.

God however does not make mistakes. Nobody that may one-day willingly serve Him will suffer a single day in hell. God searches our hearts and minds for any hope! Jer 17:10.
 

lukethreesix

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God will not have to "over-ride" anyone's "free will"? Evil, sin, wickedness, hatred, lust, etc will not remain forever! An eternal hell preserves sin, keeping it and those who practice it alive forever. That's some messed up theology dude.

Look at those passages that have the "sons of God" (Satan), we see God asking angels to deceive. 1Kings 22:20-23, Job chapter 1+2.
They (angels, even Satan) are messengers of God and do His bidding. Who was it that spoke evil through the prophets? Who was it that was it that put Job through suffering? God.

Have you ever seen Willie Wonka? Throughout the movie there is a character Mr. Slug worth (the enemy). Slug worth is deceiving all the children, tempting them with money, fame and candy. But at the end of the movie we see it was Wonka who hired Slug worth, to see which child would inherit the kingdom.
I see the same scene in scripture.
 

horsecamp

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one only can be free in Christ .

self will is not free will .

only in Christ are we free to do Gods will.

so why all this boasting about free will???? since apart from Jesus-- Satan death in hell are our masters.
 

Harry3142

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"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14-15, NIV)

This passage is an example of the people's having a free will, in that they were capable in-and-of themselves to choose whether they would serve the God who had brought them out of Egypt, or instead serve the other gods which proliferated in that region. But once they made that decision, it would dictate their words and actions in the future. If they chose to serve God, then their words and actions would conform to what God wanted of them. But if they chose to serve the other gods being worshiped during that era, then their words and actions would conform to the teachings which had built up around that deity.

We see a clear example of the consequences of such a decision in Romans, where St. Paul wrote that the people's decision to practice homosexuality as their lifestyle would not end there, but instead would cause them to sink increasingly further into depravity:

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:28-32,NIV)

Once people choose evil rather than good, then it soon becomes apparent that it is no longer they who are in control of evil, but rather it is evil that is in control of them. Just as a stream invariably leads to a river, which in turn leads to larger rivers until it eventually becomes a sea, in like manner those who deliberately choose to commit a specific act of evil soon find themselves out of control, and thus commtting other evils which at the beginning they had no conscious intention of committing.
 

Floyd

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Of course we have free will!
This factor is central to all God's dealings, and His Plan of Salvation!
It is the freewill of Satan that started the whole problem.
See: "Freewill" (separate study)
This can be seen on : www.revelationsmessage.co.uk in the Subjectindex.
Regards.
Floyd.