Comfort for Christians_Divine Chastisement

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JB_Reformed Baptist

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Feb 23, 2013
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"Despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him"
Hebrews 12:5 KJV

It is of first importance that we learn to draw a sharp distinction between Divine punishment and Divine chastisement: important for maintaining the honour and glory of God, and for the peace of mind of the Christian. The distinction is very simple, yet is it often lost sight of. God’s people can never by any possibility be punished for their sins, for God has already punished them at the Cross.

The Lord Jesus, our Blessed Substitute, suffered the full penalty of all our guilt, hence it is written "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). Neither the justice nor the love of God will permit Him to again exact payment of what Christ discharged to the full. The difference between punishment and chastisement lies not in the nature of the sufferings of the afflicted: it is most important to bear this in mind.

There is a threefold distinction between the two. First, the character in which God acts. In the former God acts as Judge, in the latter as Father. Sentence of punishment is the act of a judge, a penal sentence passed on those charged with guilt. Punishment can never fall upon the child of God in this judicial sense because his guilt was all transferred to Christ: "Who his own self bear our sins in his own body on the tree" (1 Pet. 2:24)

But while the believer’s sins cannot be punished, while the Christian cannot be condemned (Rom. 8:3), yet he may be chastised. The Christian occupies an entirely different position from the non-Christian: he is a member of the Family of God. The relationship which now exists between him and God is that of parent and child; and as a son he must be disciplined for wrongdoing. Folly is bound up in the hearts of all God’s children, and the rod is necessary to rebuke, to subdue, to humble.

The second distinction between Divine punishment and Divine chastisement lies in the recipients of each. The objects of the former are His enemies. The subjects of the latter are His children. As the Judge of all the earth, God will yet take vengeance on all His foes. As the Father of His family, God maintains discipline over all His children. The one is judicial, the other parental.

A third distinction is seen in The design of each: the one is retributive, the other remedial. The one flows from His anger, the other from His love. Divine punishment is never sent for the good of sinners, but for the honoring of God’s law and the vindicating of His government. But Divine chastisement is sent for the well-being of His children: "We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness" (Heb. 12:9-10).

The above distinction should at once rebuke the thoughts which are so generally entertained among Christians. When the believer is smarting under the rod let him not say, God is now punishing me for my sins. That can never be. That is most dishonoring to the blood of Christ. God is correcting thee in love, not smiting in wrath. Nor should the Christian regard the chastening of the Lord as a sort of necessary evil to which he must bow as submissively as possible. No, it proceeds from God’s goodness and faithfulness, and is one of the greatest blessings for which we have to thank Him. Chastisement evidences our Divine son-ship: the father of a family does not concern himself with those on the outside: but those within he guides and disciplines to make them conform to his will. Chastisement is designed for our good, to promote our highest interests. Look beyond the rod to the All-wise hand that wields it!

The Hebrew Christians to whom this Epistle was first addressed were passing through a great fight of afflictions, and miserably were they conducting themselves. They were the little remnant out of the Jewish nation who had believed on their Messiah during the days of His public ministry, plus those Jews who had been converted under the preaching of the apostles. It is highly probable that they had expected the Messianic Kingdom would at once be set up on earth and that they would be allotted the chief places of honour in it. But the Millennium had not begun, and their own lot became increasingly bitter. They were not only hated by the Gentiles, but ostracized by their unbelieving brethren, and it became a hard matter for them to make even a bare living. Providence held a frowning face. Many who had made a profession of Christianity had gone back to Judaism and were prospering temporally. As the afflictions of the believing Jews increased, they too were sorely tempted to turn their back upon the new Faith. Had they been wrong in embracing Christianity? Was high Heaven displeased because they had identified themselves with Jesus of Nazareth? Did not their suffering go to show that God no longer regarded them with favour?

Now it is most instructive and blessed to see how the Apostle met the unbelieving reasoning of their hearts. He appealed to their own Scriptures! He reminded them of an exhortation Found in Proverbs 3:11-12, and applied it to their case. Notice, first, the words we place in italics: "Ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you." This shows that the exhortations of the Old Testament were not restricted to those who lived under the old covenant: they apply with equal force and directness to those of us living under the new covenant. Let us not forget that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable" (2 Tim. 3:16) The Old Testament equally as much as the New Testament was written for our learning and admonition. Second, mark the tense of the verb in our opening text: "Ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh." The Apostle quoted a sentence of the Word written one thousand years previously, yet he does not say "which hath spoken," but "which speaketh." The same principle is illustrated in that sevenfold "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith (not "said") unto the churches" of Rev. 2 and 3. The Holy Scriptures are a living Word in which God is speaking today!
Consider now the words "Ye have forgotten." It was not that these Hebrew Christians were unacquainted with Proverbs 3:11 and 12, but they had let them slip. They had forgotten the Fatherhood of God and their relation of Him as His dear children. In consequence they misinterpreted both the manner and design of God’s present dealings with them, they viewed His dispensation not in the light of His Love, but regarded them as signs of His displeasure or as proofs of His forgetfulness. Consequently, instead of cheerful submission, there was despondency and despair. Here is a most important lesson for us: we must interpret the mysterious providences of God not by reason or observation, but by the Word. How often we "forget" the exhortation which speaketh unto us as unto children: "My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him."

"Unhappily there is no word in the English language which is capable of doing justice to the Greek term here. "Paideia" which is rendered "chastening" is only another form of "paidion" which signifies "young children," being the tender word that was employed by the Saviour in John 21:5 and Hebrews 2:13. One can see at a glance the direct connection which exists between the words "disciple" and "discipline": equally close in the Greek is the relation between "children" and "chastening." Son-training would be better. It has reference to God’s education, nurture and discipline of His children. It is the Father’s wise and loving correction.

Much chastisement comes by the rod in the hand of the Father correcting His erring child. But it is a serious mistake to confine our thoughts to this one aspect of the subject.

Chastisement is by no means always the scourging of His refractive sons. Some of the saintliest of God’s people, some of the most obedient of His children, have been and are the greatest sufferers. Oftentimes God’s chastenings instead of being retributive are corrective. They are sent to empty us of self-sufficiency and self-righteousness: they are given to discover to us hidden transgressions, and to teach us the plague of our own hearts. Or again, chastisements are sent to strengthen our faith, to raise us to higher levels of experience, to bring us into a condition of usefulness. Still again, Divine chastisement is sent as a preventative, to keep under pride, to save us from being unduly elated over success in God’s service. Let us consider, briefly, four entirely different examples.

David. In his case the rod was laid upon him for grievous sins, for open wickedness. His fall was occasioned by self-confidence and self-righteousness. If the reader will diligently compare the two Songs of David recorded in 2 Samuel 22 and 23, the one written near the beginning of his life, the other near the end, he will be struck by the great difference of spirit manifested by the writer in each. Read 2 Samuel 22:22-25 and you will not be surprised that God suffered him to have such a fall. Then turn to chapter 23, and mark the blessed change. At the beginning of v. 5 there is a heart-broken confession of failure. In verses 10-12 there is a God-glorifying confession, attributing victory unto the Lord. The severe scourging of David was not in vain.

Job. Probably he tasted of every kind of suffering which falls to man’s lot: family bereavements, loss of property, grievous bodily afflictions came fast, one on top of another. But God’s end in it all was that Job should benefit therefrom and be a greater partaker of His holiness. There was not a little of self-satisfaction and self-righteousness in Job at the beginning. But at the end, when He was brought face to face with the thrice Holy One, he "abhorred himself" (42:6). In David’s case the chastisement was retributive, in Job’s corrective.

Abraham. In him we see an illustration of an entirely different aspect of chastening. Most of the trials to which he was subjected were neither because of open sins nor for the correction of inward faults. Rather were they sent for the development of spiritual graces. Abraham was sorely tried in various ways, but it was in order that faith might be strengthened and that patience might have its perfect work in him. Abraham was weaned from the things of this world, that he might enjoy closer fellowship with Jehovah and become the "friend" of God.

Paul. "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure (2 Cor. 12:7). This "thorn" was sent not because of failure and sin, but as a preventative against pride. Note the "lest" both at the beginning and end of the verse. The result of this "thorn" was that the beloved apostle was made more conscious of his weakness. Thus, chastisement has for one of its main objects the breaking down of self-sufficiency, the bringing us to the end of our selves.

Now in view of these widely different aspects chastenings (retributive, corrective, educative, and preventative), how incompetent are we to diagnose, and how great is the folly of pronouncing a judgment concerning others! Let us not conclude when we see a fellow-Christian under the rod of God that he is necessarily being taken to task for his sins.

by Arthur Pink
 
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ScottAU

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I thought I would add some commentary.


JB_Reformed Baptist said:

"Despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him"
Hebrews 12:5 KJV

It is of first importance that we learn to draw a sharp distinction between Divine punishment and Divine chastisement: important for maintaining the honour and glory of God, and for the peace of mind of the Christian. The distinction is very simple, yet is it often lost sight of. God’s people can never by any possibility be punished for their sins, for God has already punished them at the Cross. Satan's Lie of "Ye Shall Not Surely Die" being preached by the wolf Arthur Pink. The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus bore the literal "punishment" for our sins. Jesus BORE our sins, He did not bear the wrath of God. This "wrath bearing" teaching is a deadly heresy which is leading many people into perdition because it gives them comfort in their rebellion.

If a Christian have no possiblity of being punished for their sins then why would Paul gives warnings like this...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. [Why not be partakers with them???? Because if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom. It is a very simple warning which wolves like Arthur Pink explain away with their deceptive theology.]

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[How much clearer could it be? DON'T BE DECEIVED, if you do those things you will not inherit the kingdom. Yet these wolves teach that YOU CAN do these things (although they will say you shouldn't) and still inherit the kingdom.

JB_Reformed Baptist said:
The Lord Jesus, our Blessed Substitute, suffered the full penalty of all our guilt, hence it is written "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). 1Joh 1:7 has NOTHING to do with Jesus "suffering the full penalty of our guilt", such a notion is completely alien to the Bible. Jesus was a SIN OFFERING who died on our behalf and it is through His blood that we can be cleansed. The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with being a wrath substitute, that is a lie from the pit of hell which lays the groundwork for being able to preach "Ye Shall Not Surely Die."

1Joh 1:7 is a verse that lays out the CONDITION of "walking in the light" in order to be cleansed of all sin.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [Your WALK is what you do. It is your deeds, your actions.]
1Jn 1:7 But
if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [IF is a condition. One must be WALKING IN THE LIGHT in order to be cleansed. That means you cannot be engaged in rebellion to God.]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [When we approach God seeking to be cleansed by the blood we have to confess our rebellion to God, we cannot claim that we have no sin to out account.]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[IF is another condition, sins must be confessed. We have to approach God like the Prodigal Son approached his father, that is in repentance. The rebellion has STOPPED. It is not an admission of guilt and then you keep doing what you admitted, THE SIN MUST STOP.]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. This verse is a parallel of 1Joh 1:7-10, the wolves will never teach this verse because it completely contradicts their SALVATION IN SIN deception.
JB_Reformed Baptist said:
Neither the justice nor the love of God will permit Him to again exact payment of what Christ discharged to the full. See how this works? This foundation that this perverted and evil doctrine sets is one where God CANNOT punish you for crimes that YOU CONTINUE to commit becuase God already punished Jesus. So YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE under this doctrine. The false teachers will never phrase it that way because they will always preach in a context of "YOU SHOULDN'T SIN" as they preach "YOU WILL SIN" because of the false doctrine of Original Sin. Thus strip all the fluff and rhetoric from their deceitful words and you end up with "SIN YOU WILL AND SIN YOU MUST" + "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."

"SIN YOU WILL AND SIN YOU MUST" + "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" is dressed up in fancy theological language and various scriptures are isolated and ripped out of context in order to make it sound like the truth. Thus lie is deceiving MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of professing Christian's today. In fact MOST people who profess Jesus as Lord have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Many of these people DETEST THE TRUTH and wil speak ill of the truth when they hear it, calling evil good and good evil, all dressed up in a guise of Christianity.

The difference between punishment and chastisement lies not in the nature of the sufferings of the afflicted: it is most important to bear this in mind.

There is a threefold distinction between the two. First, the character in which God acts. In the former God acts as Judge, in the latter as Father. Sentence of punishment is the act of a judge, a penal sentence passed on those charged with guilt. Punishment can never fall upon the child of God in this judicial sense because his guilt was all transferred to Christ: "Who his own self bear our sins in his own body on the tree" (1 Pet. 2:24) 1Pet 2:24 does not say that "our guilt was transferred to Christ in a judicial sense" it simply says he "bore our sins in his own body on the tree." Jesus offered Himself to God WITHOUT SPOT, not WITH OUR SPOTS, he bore our sins in a figurative sense as the spotless lamb whereby our past transgressions are washed away by the blood providing we approach God in the proper manner.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [Those who are sanctified are those who have been "set apart" unto holiness. They are perfected because their PAST SIN has been purged by the blood. They live holy now with pure hearts blameless before God.]
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; [The law of love is written in the hearts of the truly regenerate and thus they walk by a faith that works by love (Gal 5:6) and thus walk in the Spirit by which they fulfill the righteousness of the law (Rom 8:4) thus they are IN Christ (Rom 8:1). This is what being sanctified means.]
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [For the sins are purged (Heb 9:14, 2Pet 1:9).]
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. [Where these sins have been remitted (1Joh 1:7) there is no more offering because the one that is sanctified IS CLEAN. They do not need to be cleansed again. We don't get cleansed by the blood in order that we go out and defile ourselves again.]
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, [With our hearts clean before God (for we have repented and thus forsaken our rebellion and had our previous sins purged) we can approach God boldly or in full confidence. Without the blood of Christ we would be approaching God still laden with guilt because we cannot purge our own sins.]
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; The new and living way is IN CHRIST, we die with Him (baptism of repentance) and are raised up in Him (by the power of God (Col 2:12)) and thus we are WALKING in the Spirit.]
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; Jesus is both the high priest and the sin offering.
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We draw near with a TRUE heart, that is a heart without deceit. You cannot approach God with a TRUE heart whilst still in rebellion to God. It is in approaching God with a TRUE heart that we can have a FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH because our hearts have been sprinkled from an evil conscience. The SAVED IN SIN Gospel denies all this, they have you approaching God in your rebellion, being justified due to a forensic legal exchange and then you go on in life sinning less as you wait for God to change you, it's not the Gospel, it is not even close. It is pure heresy straight from the pit of hell.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) We have to HOLD FAST to our profession which means MAINTAIN OUR WALK (see 1Joh 2:3-6, Gal 6:9, Rom 2:7).
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Read Heb 10:18 again, the blood of Christ is not to be treated as a get out of jail free card for ongoing transgression, that is to treat His blood like the blood of animals which could not purge sin. You don't take a shower and then jump back into the mud pit. The death of Christ is not a license to sin.
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and
hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Grace is the power of God to live free from sin. We are not to sin against grace. Grace abounded while sin abounded but are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID! Grace reigns through righteousness.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we
should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
JB_Reformed Baptist said:
But while the believer’s sins cannot be punished, while the Christian cannot be condemned (Rom. 8:3), yet he may be chastised. The Christian occupies an entirely different position from the non-Christian: he is a member of the Family of God. What a bold faced lie. A Christian is not POSITIONALLY in the family of God, it is a MANIFEST ACTUALITY.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [Arthur Pink is trying to deceive you into believeing you can be abiding in Christ and yet be in rebellion at the very same time.]
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. [All these wolves ignore that word MANIFEST because it contradicts their POSITIONAL teaching. They don't believe that MANIFEST conduct has anything to do with being a child of God. If the MANIFEST conduct does not line up then it doesn't mean they are a liar like John teaches (according to their theology), no, it simply means they need to be chastised. The fruit of this lie is that there are millions of professing Christian's who have a FALSE ASSURANCE that they are saved who are in rebellion to God and are soothed by this "you are going to be chastised and changed but you cannot lose your salvation." These people never even came close to any true salvation to begin with for they are stil enslaved to their lusts.]





The relationship which now exists between him and God is that of parent and child; and as a son he must be disciplined for wrongdoing. Folly is bound up in the hearts of all God’s children, and the rod is necessary to rebuke, to subdue, to humble. When God disciplines His children it is to bring them to holiness for without holiness no-one will see God. That is why in Rom 6:16-22 it teaches...

Obedience Unto Righteousness (Rom 6:16)
Righteousness Unto Holiness (Rom 6:19)
Holiness the End of Which is Eternal Life. (Rom 6:22)

Yet this discipline is for the perfecting of the SAINTS.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


This discipline is not for the perfecting of the SINNERS. Yet that is what wolves like Arthur Pink twist it into. They have the Christian still DEFILED WITHIN being gradually cleaned up (sinning less) when the Bible teaches that a Christian is PURE WITHIN yet needs to grow in grace and knowledge (growing more).

Can you see what has happened? Satan has been able to introduce false doctrines which support the acceptance of the "double-minded" Christian.

The second distinction between Divine punishment and Divine chastisement lies in the recipients of each. The objects of the former are His enemies. The subjects of the latter are His children. As the Judge of all the earth, God will yet take vengeance on all His foes. As the Father of His family, God maintains discipline over all His children. The one is judicial, the other parental. Total hogwash. The carnal minded man is the enemy of God, it has nothing to do with some positional judicial decree like these liars teach.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because
the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For
if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [The sons of God are those who are led (ie. they yield) by the Spirit. There is nothing positional about it, it is related to WHAT YOU ACTUALLY ARE DOING.

Anyway I could go on but I have other things to do.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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The nice thing about Scott's posts is that their length and annoying format keep most people from reading them.
 

ScottAU

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The nice thing about Scott's posts is that their length and annoying format keep most people from reading them.
Does a thief have to stop stealing BEFORE God will forgive them?
 

Angelina

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Arthur Pink has a good grasp on the differences between punishment and Chastisement from the Lord.
A good read. :)

Blessings!!!
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The nice thing about Scott's posts is that their length and annoying format keep most people from reading them.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The nice thing about Scott's posts is that their length and annoying format keep most people from reading them.

TRUE. Moreover Scottie tissues thinks we're pure within once we are saved, not true. This was a post to encourage the brethren but alas a wolf has come in to disturb the peace of God's children. What saith the scriptures: "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." Jam 3:17 SHALOM :)

Angelina said:
Arthur Pink has a good grasp on the differences between punishment and Chastisement from the Lord.
A good read. :)

Blessings!!!
I'm encouraged that you have been blessed of the LORD. :)

ScottAU said:
Does a thief have to stop stealing BEFORE God will forgive them?
Did the whore who was brought to Jesus stop, before Jesus said Go and sin no more?
 

Harry3142

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The danger with belief in chastening doesn't lie in chastening itself. It lies in the desire of some to be the instruments of God's chastening. I saw this taught by a radical minister as the right of some who called themselves Christians in the late 1960's. However, they were actually white supremacists who had an overwhelming desire to crush even the thought of integration.

And if the 'chastening' didn't cause the one chastened to repent of his belief in integration, what then? Those who believed that they had the 'divine right' to be the instruments of God's chastening also believed that they had the right to be God's executioners. But instead of calling it murder, they called it 'slaying the wicked'.

Scripture is clear: Even if we believe that someone is being chastened, such as some believed following Hurricane Katrina and the earthquake which inflicted so many casualties on Japan, that does not negate our responsibility to alleviate the suffering of others. We are finite creatures, and as such cannot know the mind of God himself. So what we must abide by is Jesus' own firm orders to his disciples that they were to feed the hungry and clothe the naked (Matthew 25:31-46). For all we know the suffering of others may be as much a test of our sincerity as it is a chastening of them.
 

williemac

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I once read from a dictionary that chastening is : harsh correction for the purpose of moral improvement. On the other hand chastisement, a different word though sounding similar, is: punishment for wrongdoing. The bible says that the chastisement for our peace was upon Him (Jesus). He took the punishment for our sin. But we are also told that all whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. Don't fool yourself, to whom it may concern. If you are not chastened by the Lord, He doesn't love you. If you don't think you have earned chastening at any point in time, then maybe you will be chastened for such pride.

But for those who keep on coming here and warning people, what about the passages such as Luke 18:10-14, where we find a man who was doing everything right, but comparing himself with an apparent sinner and, well, according to Jesus he wasn't the one who went away justified. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.(vs.14)

And what about the promise from Jesus that we who are of faith in Him will not come into judgment? (John5:24) Why do you go against His word and warn us of judgment? Do you imagine we are not of faith? Do you imagine that John lied in 1John 2:1, and that Jesus is actually not the advocate for His beloved who may happen to sin? He took the punishment for our sin, but it was a fickle attempt at a mere reprieve?

We are saved by faith but if we don't keep the ten commandments, this is all for nothing? Really? But what are the new covenant commandments? Here they are: believe on Him, and love one another (1John3:23). Just two.... faith and love.

1John 4:12..." No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. How about vs. 7 of that chapter?...." Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."
Let me let you all in on a little fact about love. It does not seek its own. Know what that means? It means that it is not self serving. So while you go about motivating people to do whatever they are to do by putting their life on the line, you entice them into a self serving motive. FYI...This is not what love looks like. If you are doing your good works just to save your own hide, then you have not loved anyone but yourself. Think about it!!

As for me, what ever I do, I am secure in Him and have no urgency toward self survival in what I am doing. I could only wish that I could spread the joy of this to all whom I touch.
 

KingJ

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ScottAU said:
Does a thief have to stop stealing BEFORE God will forgive them?
A thief need only sincerely repent. But can he, if he is still stealing?

JB_Reformed Baptist said:

"Despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him"
Hebrews 12:5 KJV

It is of first importance that we learn to draw a sharp distinction between Divine punishment and Divine chastisement:
Good read, thanks for posting JB.
 

ScottAU

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But for those who keep on coming here and warning people, what about the passages such as Luke 18:10-14, where we find a man who was doing everything right, but comparing
himself with an apparent sinner and, well, according to Jesus he wasn't the one who went away justified. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.(vs.14)
First of all, the parable of Pharisee and the Publican has NOTHING to do with contending for the faith against false doctrine.

That parable is teaching us how to approach God in repentance. The words of James come to mind...

Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

The opening post makes this claim,

God’s people can never by any possibility be punished for their sins, for God has already punished them at the Cross.
Where is that taught in the Bible?

Where is anything even close to that taught in the Bible?

It isn't. The Scriptures are full of warnings to forsake all evil and do what is right. This notion that once someone "accepts Jesus" that they can no longer face the judgment of God is utterly false. As I quoted above (which was completely ignored) Paul warned the Ephesians to not let ANY uncleaness be named among them because the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience and therefore don't be one of them.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Arthur Pink was in complete denial of such warnings and apealed the 400-500 year old Penal Substitution doctrine which is not found taught anywhere in the Bible. Jesus didn't teach it anywhere, not did anyone anywhere else. The doctrine is derived piecemeal by reading the concept INTO a few isolated passages whilst ignoring the whole tenet of harmonised Scripture.


Who is correct? Is Arthur Pink correct in teaching that a Christian can no longer be punished for rebellion but will only receive correction? Or is Jesus correct when He taught that if you don't forgive others God will not forgive you? Jesus taught a parable where a servant was forgiven of a debt and when that servant went out and did not forgive a fellow servant the forgviness he had been granted was revoked, the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what Arthur Pink teaches above. To point that out is to be a Pharisee?

Who is correct? Is Arthur Pink correct in teaching that a Christian can no longer be punished for rebellion but will only receive correction? Or is Paul correct in admonishing believers over and over again to remain steadfast in the faith to the end? Or Peter where he warns believers to not led be astray by the error of the wicked and fall from their own steadfastness. Under Arthur Pink's teaching such warnings ring hollow because ultimtely there is no real danger.

Why don't you find James, Peter, John, Paul, Jude, or Jesus speaking like Arthur Pink? There is not a single passage in the entire Bible which is teaching what Arthur Pink is teaching, Arthur Pink takes parts of Hebrews 12 and forces it into a Penal Substitution context, completely ignoring the whole counsel of Scripture (due to Reformed Theology holding preeminence in his mind).


JB Reformed Baptist
TRUE. Moreover Scottie tissues thinks we're pure within once we are saved, not true. This was a post to encourage the brethren but alas a wolf has come in to disturb the peace of God's children. What saith the scriptures: "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." Jam 3:17 SHALOM :)
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Saved by grace THROUGH faith, ie. we yield (faith) to the leading of God (grace).
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: We have to endure the trial of our faith that we MIGHT be found unto praise and honour, hence eternal life is to those who patiently CONTINUE in doing good, seeking glory, honour and immortality.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. God is the author of the salvation of those who OBEY Him (Heb 5:9).
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; We have to bind ourselves with the truth, be sober, bringing every thought into the captivity of Christ (2Cor 10:4-5) putting on the whole armour of God (Eph 6:11) for we don't war against flesh and blood, but rather, our war is spiritual (Eph 6:12, 2Cor 10:3-4).
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: Obedience is absolutely mandatory. We are to walk in the Spirit not according to the flesh (Rom 8:1-14).
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; The word translated "conversation" is "anazōnnumi" and it is more accuratly rendered BEHAVIOUR or CONDUCT.
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: God is going to judge us all by WHAT WE DO and therefore Peter admonises us to pass the time of our sojouring IN FEAR.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Heart purity is pretty much denied in professing Christianity today.

Moreover Scottie tissues thinks we're pure witin once we are saved, not true.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



Mat_5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Ti_1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Tit_1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

2Ti_1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;

2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse (G2511) first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean (G2513) also.

Cleanse - G2511 - katharizō
From G2513; to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purge, purify.

Clean - G2513 - katharos
Of uncertain affinity; clean (literally or figuratively): - clean, clear, pure.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean (G2513) through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy (G40), let him be holy (G37) still.

Holy - G40 -hagios
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
 

williemac

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Scot. I wish you would make up your mind. Are you promoting faith or are you promoting works of law, for salvation? It ain't both.
" For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this; you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Gal.5:154) The more credible exhortation is to promote love. I don't see anyone doing that.
The pure heart does not serve itself. Love does not serve itself. Even sanctification is for the purpose of being useful to the Master, so that one can serve others as He did, and wants to do through us.

Here is the rub. If one is serving Jesus by loving his neighbor, but in the back of his mind he believes that in doing these that he is securing his salvation.. then his motive is tainted. This is called leaven. This is precisely why we have the Holy Spirit. So that through His assurance and His guarantee of our inheritance, we can gird up our loins and wash our brother's feet.....for the right reasons. To impart life. You cannot impart that which you don't have. If one is still working to secure his life, then he does not have it. Life is a free gift. There are no catches. There is no fine print.
Life reproduces. The only thing that some have been able to reproduce is the threat of death, warnings, condemnation.These things come from the law. These are the ministry of the law. The law is not of faith. If one thinks he is promoting faith, and wants to promote faith, then one cannot do it by using the law. They don't mix. The law demands perfection. This is how we can discern the promotion of salvation by law. When one promotes a standard so high that it disqualifies most people. The contradiction to this is that John saw a multitude standing before the throne..that no one could number.

What business does anyone have going about disqualifying His beloved, placing a yoke around the necks of their brothers and sisters that Jesus Himself has removed by His sacrifice? His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The yoke of the law is not. It is a tough taskmaster and has no forgiveness. Where is the forgiveness with your position? We have redemption through the forgiveness of sin. Does it just go away? Really? Do we call the cross a common thing? Be careful with that, my friend. It is finished!!!

You want to talk about a pure heart? Pure means without contamination. Leaven contaminates. Sin is self serving. But so is salvation by works. It is no better and no different than sin. That is why Paul used the word "flesh" in relation to the law. But Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Rom.10:4)

Doing the right things for the wrong reasons is no answer. It is not fruit. It will be burned up.
 

ScottAU

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williemac said:
Scot. I wish you would make up your mind. Are you promoting faith or are you promoting works of law, for salvation? It ain't both. Faith is a work.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The faith that saves is a WORKING FAITH, ie. a faith whereby one is a "doer of the word" as opposed to being a "hearer only." If we take a look at Hebrews 11 we see that faith (ie. being a doer of the word) is the substance and evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1). You see TRUE INWARD CONVICTION produces MANIFEST OUTWARD ACTION. Which is why James teaches that "faith is proven by deeds" (Jam 2:18). Noah's faith was genuine and thus produced an "obedient building of the ark" (Heb 11:7), likewise God reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness (Rom 4:5) for Abraham had a GENUINE FAITH whereby he was "fully pursuaded" (Rom 4:21) and thus "walked in the steps of faith ' (Rom 4:12), had the obedience of faith (Heb 11:8). and did the works of faith (Joh 8:39). Paul understood this which is why he calls "faith a work."

There is much confusion about this today due to the false message being preached almost universally. Let's look at Eph 2:8-10 for example.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Paul is not teaching in Eph 2:8 that all you do is "trust God" and "do nothing" to be saved. NO! Paul is teaching that we are saved via the "dynamic" of YIELDING TO THE PROVISION OF GOD. Grace is the provision of God freely provuded to us, it is God's influence on our hearts and His QUICKENING POWER.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Quickened Us Together - G4806 - suzōopoieō
From G4862 and G2227; to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively): - quicken together with.


Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Operation - G1753 - energeia
From G1756; efficiency (“energy”): - operation, strong, (effectual) working.


The above is the dynamic Paul is describing in Eph 2:8. We cannot save ourselves apart from God, this is what it means by "not of works."


Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What was the boast?

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The Pharisees boasted in the law and sought justification in keeping the letter. They totally neglected the grace of God and thus inward heart purity. Thus Jesus would heal on the Sabbath and they would condemn Him because they sought the "letter" and were blind to the "Spirit."

So think very carefully on this. When Paul is teaching "not of works" the context is "not of anything we do apart from the grace of God." In other words we cannot find salvation or righteousness in and of ourselves, we have to be plugged into God. Thus we are saved via the dynamic of "grace THROUGH faith." God is the author of the salvation of those whom obey Him (Heb 5:9) because OBEDIENCE = FAITH = YIELDING = PLUGGED INTO GOD = RECEIVING THE IMPLANTED WORD. This is why the GIFT OF GOD is "eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ."

It is all so simple. It is beautiful. Praise God.


" For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this; you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Gal.5:154) The more credible exhortation is to promote love. I don't see anyone doing that. Love does not rejoice in iniquity but rather in the truth (1Cor 13:6). My warning about Arthur Pink is given in love. Arthur Pink was a false teacher, he was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Arthur pink was one of Satan's ministers who was disguised as a minister of righteousness (2 Cor 11:15). This is clearly true because the doctrine he teaches is the opposite of what the Bible clearly teaches as I have clearly shown. No-one has been able to answer my questions or refute the Scripture I have posted. They cannot, the Bible means what it says. People can only try and disprove it by ignoring it and presenting other scriptures out of context or rhetoric, and I can refute that stuff too. The Word of God is the sword of truth and easily cuts through the lies.
The pure heart does not serve itself. Love does not serve itself. Even sanctification is for the purpose of being useful to the Master, so that one can serve others as He did, and wants to do through us.

Here is the rub. If one is serving Jesus by loving his neighbor, but in the back of his mind he believes that in doing these that he is securing his salvation. then his motive is tainted. This is called leaven. This is precisely why we have the Holy Spirit. So that through His assurance and His guarantee of our inheritance, we can gird up our loins and wash our brother's feet.....for the right reasons. To impart life. You cannot impart that which you don't have. If one is still working to secure his life, then he does not have it. Life is a free gift. There are no catches. There is no fine print. While it is true that God secures us it is only so long as we remain steadfast in the faith. "Unconditional Security" is a false teaching. The Bible is full of warning after warning about enduring to the end, about remaining steadfast in the faith, about being sober and careful so as not to be deceived. All those warnings are there for a reason. Satan is not a kitten, Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour and his mode of operation is DECEPTION. Satan is also highly intelligent and is a MASTER THEOLOGIAN. Satan used the Bible (through his false teachers) to mislead a multitude. Didn't Jesus warn us to TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECIEVE US??? Didn't Jesus say MANY will come in His name, saying He is the Christ and will DECIEVE MANY???

Life reproduces. The only thing that some have been able to reproduce is the threat of death, warnings, condemnation.These things come from the law. These are the ministry of the law. The law is not of faith. If one thinks he is promoting faith, and wants to promote faith, then one cannot do it by using the law. They don't mix. The law demands perfection. This is how we can discern the promotion of salvation by law. When one promotes a standard so high that it disqualifies most people. The contradiction to this is that John saw a multitude standing before the throne..that no one could number. Jesus taught that the way to life is via the strait gate and narrow way and the FEW would find it. Jesus said we must STRIVE to enter into that gate and that many would try and be unable to. There is a multitude saved yes, but not a multitude in comparison with those who perish. Jesus said MANY who profess His name will be rejected for they were workers in iniquity. The modern Gospel message promotes ongoing iniquity for certain. If one is to preach heart purity, holiness, the cessation of sin, they are condemned as a heretic, yet if one is to preach that they will always be the Romans Wretch and to use 1Joh 1:8 as a proof text for perpetual sinning while on earth then one is deemed speaking the truth. Good is called evil and evil is called good.

All God wants is us to love him with all our heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourself. We do this by abiding in Him in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) through which we walk in the Spirit FULFILLING the righteousness of the law (Rom 8:4), that is because faith works by love (Gal 5:6), and love fulfulls the law (Gal 5:14) and thus it is by faith that the law is established in the heart (Rom 3:31). Hence if we are in Christ and therefore walking by a faith that works by love we are not under the law (Gal 5:18) for the law is for the unrighteous, the law is for the sinner (1Tim 1:9). Think carefully about my words, I am not lying to you, it is what the Bible teaches, it is what God teaches, it is what Jesus Christ teaches.

What business does anyone have going about disqualifying His beloved, placing a yoke around the necks of their brothers and sisters that Jesus Himself has removed by His sacrifice? Jesus did not remove the righteous requrements of the law. We are dead to the law through the body of Christ that we may serve in the Spirit and bring froth fruit unto righteousness (Rom 7:4-6). The false teaching of Penal Substition serves to remove any fear of judgment and any requirement to obey God, people are induced to rest in a forensic transaction which is a MYTH, thus the fruit of this doctrine is a church system full of double-minded converts who defend being able to sin and not surely die.

You want to talk about a pure heart? Pure means without contamination. Leaven contaminates. Sin is self serving. But so is salvation by works. It is no better and no different than sin. That is why Paul used the word "flesh" in relation to the law. But Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Rom.10:4) Yet Christ is not the end of the righteousness of the law and that is where you err. The reason that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness is that the law is but a shadow of Christ, the law can only serve to regiment the outer man and thus cleanse the outside of the cup. The implanted word of Christ within cleanses the inner man and thus righteousness is IN Christ and not in the law. You need to understand the distinction between the "works of the law" and the "works of faith." That lack of distinction in your mind is a stronghold which prevents you from seeing the truth.

Doing the right things for the wrong reasons is no answer. It is not fruit. It will be burned up. The works being burned up in 1Cor 3 is in the context of unproductive church building. It is veyr important to read entire passages for context. The wolves are very good at isolating scripture to proof text their deceptions.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Are you "Dan" from standingthegap?
I'll assume no response means yes.


ScottAU said:
Does a thief have to stop stealing BEFORE God will forgive them?
Did the father forgive his prodigal son before he repented? You bet he did. He longed to see his son again and forgave him long before he came home. That is the nature of GOD, to love his children.

You do not understand this love. You think GOD is harsh and unforgiving. I think that these are the kinds of people spoken of in Luke 19:21.
 

williemac

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Scott. I will easily be able to refute some of what you are saying. Time will not allow a full and lengthy response right now, but a few comments for you. The first is that there is no such thing as conditional security on the basis of works. It is a matter of remaining in faith. The security is offered from His end. Whether it is applied to us or not is dependent on whether we receive it by accepting it. This goes for life as well. It is a free gift. We lose our assurance when we fall away from believing that life is a free gift. Security is not something that God withdraws. This covenant is based on two immutable things. First a promise, and second, that it is impossible for God to lie. So we agree on this point. Steadfast in the faith, as you put it.

Next point. When Jesus said that the way to life was narrow, it was true at the time He stated it. He came to those who were under the old covenant, and He did not change that covenant while alive. Faith was not yet revealed. I don't know why it is so hard to comprehend that Jesus used the law in its correct function, which was to convict the unbelievers of sin, just as the Holy Spirit also is sent to do.

The way to life is free. This is found in so many passages that it would be redundant to mention them all. But start with the 5th chapter of Romans, where the word "free" is found in several verses in regards to both life and righteousness. How then is this a narrow and difficult path? Unless of course it is a stumbling block for those who feel compelled to earn their way into God's kingdom through works of law (or even works of faith). Then it is not only difficult and narrow. It is impossible. Hence the new covenant, based on a better sacrifice and better promises. This new way was kept hidden until after His resurrection. So what Jesus said was true when He said it. But He came to change all that.

As far as those who will perish for being workers of iniquity....that is everyone, my friend. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Literally everyone who is judged by the law will be found guilty. No exceptions. Not even we who are in Christ would survive such judgment. The law is unforgiving. It will find fault somewhere. As I shared, Jesus gave a clue as to the solution. In John 5:24, He promised that we who are of faith in Him have everlasting life and will not come into judgment. How is it then, that He will find iniquity in a person that is not being judged? Here is the point. He is not talking about believers. He is talking about those who do not have the Son. On the contrary, all who have the Son have life, and will not be judged.

I have already replied to Heb.10:26, so if we want to go toe to toe, then I ask you to reply to John 5:24. If you are not willing, then neither will I be all that bothered to reply to your passages. But I will mention that this is not a rock paper scissors game we are playing with the bible.
And by the way, I fully understand the works of faith. But unlike the law, these are called fruit. And Jesus said that some would bear 100, some 60, and some 30. In other words, unlike the law, perfection is not demanded of us. It is not a good idea to encourage anyone to bear just a little fruit. However, if one does just that, it is not our Lord who will reject this man. It is the likes of those who are working hard, as those who were hired at the first part of the day were jealous that those who did almost no work were given the same wage. His reply to that was..."Is your eye evil because I am good? " (Math.20:15)

So you insist that we are not under the works of law. But do you also insist that we are under works of faith, and that eternal life will be granted on the basis of works of faith? There are those who say that and follow it up by applying the standard of the law into it, and furthermore insist that there will be a judgment that arises that will qualify or disqualify a person on the basis of these so called "works of faith" . If this is your stance, then this is where we part ways. John 5:24, remember? No judgment...period.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

Many are called but few are chosen.
Feb 23, 2013
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KingJ said:
A thief need only sincerely repent. But can he, if he is still stealing?



Good read, thanks for posting JB.
KingJ said:
A thief need only sincerely repent. But can he, if he is still stealing?



Good read, thanks for posting JB.
Thanks KJ. I believe Pink was one of those who did his homework and did it properly. I'm not suggesting he was infallible -for no mere man is- but he by his writings shows an extreme desire :" uttermost for HIS highest " if you get my drift:

This particular excerpt I posted was among many chapters on "comfort for Christians". He's known as an outstanding teacher. Taking the seemingly complex and reducing it to laymans terms.

In any case I'm encouraged you were blessed. This man of God has blessed many throughout his teaching ministry and I suspect he will continue, for those who have ears to hear. SHALOM :)