Female Pastors

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Polt

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Justin Mangonel said:
Dear 1,

At the end of the day do you think that you will wrestle these people to your way of thinking by analytical argument?
What analytical argument? It's a fraud called bait-and-switch. Ask people to agree that the "gifts of the spirit" (e.g. tongues) are bestowed on men and women. When the agreement comes, call being a pastor a gift of the spirit.
 

101G

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"At the end of the day do you think that you will wrestle these people to your way of thinking by analytical argument?".
I'm going to be honest with you. when I took this assignment from the Lord I knew it was going to be a hard fight. but the Lord set me for this mission. I'm in it for the long haul. I must run my race. not to win anything, but to finish my course. for the race is not given to the swift, but to the one who endure to the end.
yes, I wrestle, but not with flesh and blood. I once was in darkness until the Lord showed me the light. for the strong must bare the weak, for once I was weak. and the Lord had patience with me, so why can't I for my fellow man.

be blessed

P.S. see what I mean by this last person response, (smile).
 

justaname

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And the female shepherds are to pastor females and children in the flock, similar to a role some pastor's wives play, while the male shepherds are to pastor to the entire flock.

Women can have strong leading skills with great knowledge and wisdom. It is only the context in which they shepherd where we come to a disagreement. There can be female CEOs, authorities in government, civic and group leaders, sunday school teachers, and more of the like. It is in the context of the church, similar to the context of the home, where are women are to have a more submissive role.
 

101G

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2 all, GINOLJC,

the authority in the Church follows, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". we will concentrate on the first three.
the word set is Appoint. dictionary.com 2. to determine by authority or agreement; fix; set

Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ".

the Apostle Paul was a Prophet, Teacher,and Pastor. scripture, 1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing".
three things the Apostle Paul stated that he was, #1, a prophet, "And though I have the gift of prophecy". he also have the GIFT of pastor, "and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge. (here Knowledge and understanding, see Jeremiah 3:15). as a teacher, 1 Corinthians 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. so an apostle can be prophet, teacher as well as a Pastor. getting interested?.

now the apostle Peter. 1 Peter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away". Ok, #1 the apostle is an ELDER, "who am also an elder". also he's an overseer, "taking the oversight", Bishop, "not for filthy lucre". so Peter was an apostle, Bishop/overseer, and a Pastor, yes Pastor, supportive scripture, John 21:16 "He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep". Pastors are to feed, with KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING. the Overseers/Elder, Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood". so an Elder can be a Bishop/Overseer. Hmmmmmm.

Prophets in the O.T. was the highest office held, both by men and women. and now in the N.T. both men and women hold those same positions. but the office, or the gift of the prophet is misunderstood. this we will look at today.
those with blinded, or non-renewed mines, one will say prophets are only for to prophesy, meaning only future events. NO, and again I say NO. listen, prophets did that in the O.T. to tell us what will happen in the N.T. but now that which have come to pass, there is no need to tell of the future, but to proclaim it, because it's here now. its call spreading of the GOSPEL, or the GOOD NEWS. for what was to come have come already. scripture proof that prophets preach, and teach the Gospel, Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear". HOLD IT LORD JESUS, are you saying John is not a prophet?, our, (men today, some) say prophets only prophesy future events. well, what was to come, (future events), is here now. and now that's it is here, tell everyone about it. there is no need to prophesy a future event that is here already, but to proclaim it. NOW LETS SEE IF JOHN THE PROPHET WAS A PREACHER, Matthew 3:1 " In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea". well, well, well, a prophet preaching, according to some men, a prophet is only to foretell future events. this is exactly why the Lord Jesus brought this topic to light. most Christian just don't know what a prophet do. listen, 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John". now Prophets preach. now, knowing this, scripture, Acts 21:8 "And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, (side note all those who thought that the 7 was deacons, in acts chapter 6, if so, they didn't wait tables long), which was one of the seven; and abode with him. 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy". what do this word prophesy mean
G4395 προφητεύω propheteuo (prof-ate-yoo'-o) v.
1. to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office
[from G4396]
KJV: prophesy
Root(s): G4396
speak under inspiration, PREACH. scripture, 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". question, all scriptures are what?, given by inspiration of God. and for what?, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". instructor are teachers. Apostles correct you, pastors reproof you. so a prophet office can be a teacher, an apostle, and a pastor also. for if one speak an inspiring word, lets see, 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit". there's that pastoral GIFT. speaking a word from God. now who is speaking the prophet, or he who is in the prophet, :rolleyes: . these offices are HOLY GHOST filled. and they function within the body.
 

Polt

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101G,

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (The Greek word used for husband literally means a male. Bishop means overseer or pastor.)

A pastor must be a blameless male. The Bible says it. That settles it. And, you're fighting against God's word. The whole Bible is powerfully consistent with this verse. It's not a gray area. So, you're reduced to blowing smoke and insulting us by asking us to accept your flaming nonsense.
 

101G

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same old thing,
Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also".
look at the word, "succourer", here. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries it's the word,
G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

The KJV renders it here as succourer, Why?. this word succourer, (G4368 προστάτις prostatis), is the feminine of the the proistemi G4291 προΐστημι proistemi, which is for the male in that position.
Bishop: feminine noun
G1984 ἐπισκοπή episkope (ep-is-kop-ay') n.
1. inspection (for relief)
2. (by implication) superintendence

if you can't come up with somrthing new, you will be ignored.


2 Polt
lets put this Bishop thing to and end.
answer this please,
qualification is not uncommon, 1 Timothy 5:9 "Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man"
let me ask you this then, what are the qualification of a male who is widowed?. well.

BUT THIS IS THE QUESTION I'M ASKING.
1 Timothy 3:12 "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well".
Deacon, G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) n.
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, , etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
Compare: G1377

Now, Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Servant:
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) n.
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
Compare: G1377
Polt the word for DEACON is the same word use of Phebe our sister, "Servant". the apostle Paul was a servant. I ask is our sister the the husbands of one wife. no she is not. so this clearly showes that men and women can hold the position, only here in 1 Timothy 3:12 is the qulification for the male counterpart. in 1 Timothy 3:1 these are qualification for the male who desire the office. one can plainly see these qualification was for the male counter part. so the conclusion is either the office is for both or the word of God lied. well for me I'm going with the word of God. men lie.

and two note in the definition of Deacon/Servant. it said, teaching, pastoring, a Male?. well Phebe is not male.
see Joel said the spirit will be poured out on the servants too. and Phebe our sister is a servant to the church at Cenchrea, LEADERSHIP, and now with the apostle Paul letter of recommendation overseer to the church at Rome, now aint that something. you can't swallow that can you.

well Polt how do you reconcile theses two words "Deacon", and Servant".


Malachi 3:2 "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap".


another crutch made for the fire. the bible is clear.
 

Polt

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101G said:
well Polt how do you reconcile theses two words "Deacon", and Servant".
The topic is pastors, not deacons. Deacons are not pastors or leaders (per se). Phobe has been helpful. That's all. Paul calls her a servant and a helper, but not a pastor, elder, apostle, or anything along the lines of a leader.

As usual, you spend your time offering nothing but irrelevant verses and points, with the only goal of misrepresenting the Bible.

Even if we were talking about deacons, a servant can mean many things. Someone helpful is correctly called a servant. Jesus used the term deacon to refer to the lowest position within the church. While there's no female religious leaders among God's people in the Bible, cover to cover, there are many women who have been very helpful. Every woman helping out at church is a servant. But, the people who lead the church should be male, even if they are considered servants of the church.
 

101G

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yes, The topic is pastors, not deacons. you was the one who brought it up
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (The Greek word used for husband literally means a male. Bishop means overseer or pastor.)

A pastor must be a blameless male. The Bible says it. That settles it. And, you're fighting against God's word. The whole Bible is powerfully consistent with this verse. It's not a gray area. So, you're reduced to blowing smoke and insulting us by asking us to accept your flaming nonsense.


well what about your point, "he must be the husband of one wife?", just as the DEACON. got caught.

now if the bishop qualification, is to have one wife as well as the deacon, then my point is true, the apostle is talking only about the male counter part. because the same qualification for your pastor/bishop, Deacon, "husband of one wife", is the same office qualification. and the office of Deacon which our sister Phebe holds. so the two offices must be reconcile, or else the office of bishop don't qualify for males only. so take your pick. because both office of bishop and deacon states, "must be husband of one wife". MALES ONLY?, LOL.

again reconcile. because you brought up the qualification, :p



Giving thanks to our Lord and God, Jesus the Christ. all glory, all praises to him ONLY.

Greeting 2 all who are called of our Lord Jesus the Christ. Good morning
I must admit, our friend Polt, by bring up the qualification of the Bishop and deacon. open the door to confirm that the apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 3 was speaking about the male counter part to these offices/duties. clearly these offices/duties is also held by women. after re-reading these qualification, the Lord revealed to me my long suspicion that it was for the male counter part only. here's the eye opener. in the opening verse, three things jump out. 1 Timothy 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work". HOLD IT, #1 if this position was for males only, why say "This is a true saying". notice what follows, " If a man desire the office". if this is a male only position why would a male have to desire it. don't make sense.

if the apostle would have said something like this, "the office/duties of a Bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach". this get straight to the point, and then we could see that it is MALE ONLY. nope, nada, didn't happen that way. the verse states, " he desireth a good work". why would you have to say "he", desireth a good work. if this is a male only position, WHY EMPHASIZE "HE", don't make sense.

Only if in contrast with one who is a female in that position. then it makes sense. Just like the Deacon position. for the scriptures states, "Likewise must the deacons". meaning, like the Bishop/pastor/overseer. "the husband of one wife". that want fly. because the position of deacon is a dual gender position.
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) masculine/feminine noun
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
Compare: G1377
Likewise with the deacon, so is the same with the bishop, a feminine noun one can check this out online at the Blue Letter Bible online, http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1984&t=KJV&sf=5

so we see that both men and women hold these duties. as I have been saying, Phebe our sister was a "succourer"
the word, "succourer", here. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries it's the word,
G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

The KJV renders it here as succourer, Why?. this word succourer, (G4368 προστάτις prostatis), is the feminine of the the proistemi G4291 προΐστημι proistemi, which is for the male in that position.

G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule

be over, taking the oversight. this is brought out in the fact the words "Office of a Bishop" is misleading, THERE IS NO OFFICE OF BISHOP. it is the duties only, not an OFFICE. according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. "the office of a bishop," lit., "(if any one seeketh) overseership," there is no word representing office. Note: The corresponding verb is episkopeo, which, in reference to the work of an overseer, is found in 1Pet 5:2, RV, "exercising the oversight," for AV "taking the oversight." See OVERSIGHT. well lets look at this word.
G1983, episkopeo
lit., to look upon" (epi, "upon," skopeo, "to look at, contemplate"), is found in 1Pet 5:2 (some ancient authorities omit it), "exercising the oversight," RV (AV, "taking ..."); "exercising" is the right rendering; the word does not imply the entrance upon such responsibility, but the fulfillment of it. It is not a matter of assuming a position, but of the discharge of the duties. The word is found elsewhere in Heb 12:15, "looking carefully," RV. See LOOK. Cp. episkope in 1Tim 3:1 (See BISHOP, No. 2).

well, well, well. taking the oversight.
in Paul's letter to the Roman Church. Phebe was probably the bearer of this letter. Lets look at this types of Commendation Paul made of Phebe. Paul was writing to the entire church, not just a specific section. (so the idea of only women teaching women is rejected), why?. this letter is to the whole congregation. Romans 1:7a To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. this letter was to the SAINTS meaning HOLY ONES. so Paul is sending her to the HOLY ONES. in order for the apostle to send her to these people, she must be HOLY herself and is well qualified, (yes she was a servant/minister at the church of Cenchrea). letter of recommendations have always been given to qualified people. commend, in conjunction with "received in the Lord", shows again that Phebe was no mere table waiter. the same was done of Epaphroditus, Philippians 2:25-30. here we see that letters were written so that the congregation would receive him. and his work was in the Lord. Phebe was to be received in the Lord as well. it's the lord work. read your commentary on Phil 2:25-30. the phrase, "received in the Lord", was used in reference to those who preached and taught the gospel. Scripture follows. the apostle Paul speaking about Epaphroditus in Philippians 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation". the same was of our sister Phebe

be blessed in the Lord.
 

Polt

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101G said:
well what about your point, "he must be the husband of one wife?", just as the DEACON. got caught. ...


if this is a male only position why would a male have to desire it. don't make sense.
Your reading comprehension is as flaky as your writing. I already addressed the issue of a deacon being the husband of one wife. See the last paragraph of the post you just replied to. That's the very issue that the majority of my post was devoted to... but you didn't see it because your eyes are tightly shut.

Paul's qualifications for bishops and deacons are about church offices. Phoebe didn't hold a church office. The word servant itself carries no meaning of holding an office. So, calling Phoebe a servant doesn't show that she holds a church office. In the entire Bible, no one is ever implied to hold the office of deacon by being called a servant. And, a lot of people who have nothing to do with church are called servants.

You don't think it makes sense to expect some males to desire a position that happens to be reserved for males? You love to be a comedian.
 

101G

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2 Polt, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul's qualifications for bishops and deacons are about church offices. Phoebe didn't hold a church office. The word servant itself carries no meaning of holding an office.

neither do Bishop. you're caught up on an "office". you must not have read what was posted from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
the words "Office of a Bishop" is misleading, THERE IS NO OFFICE OF BISHOP. it is the duties only, not an OFFICE. according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. "the office of a bishop," lit., "(if any one seeketh) overseership," there is no word representing office. Note: The corresponding verb is episkopeo, which, in reference to the work of an overseer, is found in 1Pet 5:2, RV, "exercising the oversight," for AV "taking the oversight." See OVERSIGHT

I suggest you re-read my post. THERE IS NO "OFFICE".
 

Polt

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101G said:
you're caught up on an "office". you must not have read what was posted from Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
the words "Office of a Bishop" is misleading, THERE IS NO OFFICE OF BISHOP.
I'm caught up on an "office? In all my comments on bishops I've never mentioned "office." My original comment on the topic of deacons didn't even mention "office" because my position doesn't require there to be an "office". The only reason I used "office" in my last reply (before this one) is because I gave you too much credit and thought maybe it would help you see if I used a familiar word. In your battle against the Bible, your replies to me show blindness to what I'm writing.
 

101G

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2 all, in the name of the Lord Jesus. MY MISSION IS AT AN CLOSE.

Now that the words "office of Bishop", is not an office. question why is it then a feminine noun
G1984 ἐπισκοπή episkope (ep-is-kop-ay') n.
1. inspection (for relief)
2. (by implication) superintendence
3.
[from G1980]
KJV: the office of a "bishop", bishoprick, visitation
Root(s): G1980

if the word "Bishop", is not an office, what is it, and why is it call the office of a Bishop?. well, lets see according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words concerning office, Noun,G4234 a doing, deed" (akin to prasso, "to do or practice"), also denotes "an acting" or "function," translated "office" in Rom 12:4.

See DEED. a deed is a work or Labor.

Hold it, an act or "FUNCTION", and the deed, the work, or the act is translate office. and this is to practice?. Deed
G4234 πρᾶξις praxis (prax`-is) n.
1. practice
2. (concretely) an act
3. (by extension) a function
[from G4238]
KJV: deed, office, work
Root(s): G4238

the Male who is over you.
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476

Definition:
1. to set or place before
a. to set over
b. to be over, to superintend, preside over
c. to be a protector or guardian
1. to give aid
d. to care for, give attention to
1. profess honest occupations

Phebe our sister is a succourer what do this word mean?. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries it's the word, "succourer"
G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

The KJV renders it here as succourer, Why?. this word succourer, (G4368 προστάτις prostatis), is the feminine of the the proistemi G4291 προΐστημι proistemi, which is for the male in that position.

Mission solved. since Bishop is not an office, but a WORK or Labor. the man who hold the position is G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v. meaning to rule over "the overseer",to superintend, hence what we call "Bishop". see defination above (G4291). and Phebe our sister is female counter part to that "FUNCTION" which is translate "succourer" for the female in Romans 16:1

so my MISSION is done now. Phebe our sister is an overseer to the church at rome
the leg work is done. this answer once and for all that women can and did hold authority in the churches.
now let back this up
what is an "OFFICER"
[ 1,,G5257, huperetes ] Thayer's Greek Definitions
for the original of which See MINISTER, SERVANT
1. servant
a. an underrower, subordinate rower
b. any one who serves with hands: a servant
1. in the NT of the officers and attendants of magistrates as -- of the officer who executes penalties
2. of the attendants of a king, servants, retinue, the soldiers of a king, of the attendant of a synagogue
3. of any one ministering or rendering service
c. any one who aids another in any work
1. an assistant
2. of the preacher of the gospel


SERVANT.
[ A-5,Noun,G5257, huperetes ]
for which, See MINISTER, No. 3, and OFFICER, is translated "servants" in the AV of Matt 26:58; Mark 14:65 (RV, "officers"); in John 18:36, AV and RV (RV, marg., "officers").

Phebe our sister is a SERVANT, and "OFFICER" is translated "servant. so clearly our sister Phebe was an officer in the church. look back at G5257 the first Definition from Thayer's Greek Definitions
1. an assistant
2. of the preacher of the gospel
so our sister was a "PREACHER"

Notes: (I) In Rom 11:13, AV, diakonia, "a ministry," is translated "office" (RV, "ministry"). (2) In Acts 1:20, RV, episkope, "an overseership," is translated "office" (marg., "overseership;" AV, "bishopric"). HOLD IT, STOP THE PRESS, "an overseership," is translated "office" Phebe our sister is a SERVANT, and "OFFICER" is translated "servant. so clearly our sister Phebe was an officer in the church. and in Roman 16 she now is recomended for the position, the function, the work, the Labor, the "OVERSEERSHIP" at the church at ROME. what a Revelation



SO MY MISSION IS DONE NOW. PHEBE OUR SISTER IS WITHOUT A DOUBT AN "OVERSEER" TO THE CHURCH AT ROME.

Glory to our Lord Jesus the Christ.

I have finished my cource, and I have run my race, and the Lord Jesus the Christ have the victory. I have nothing else to add, or argue about. this is DONE.
 

bytheway

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Selene said:
Females can be disciples, but they cannot be pastors or priests. In the Old Testament, all the priests were men. In the New Testament, Jesus chose 12 Apostles from his many disciples. Some of those disciples were women, but Jesus chose all men. Only a man can be a pastor or priest because they are the shepherds who takes care of the flock. There are no shephardess and no priestresses in Judaism or in the Old Testament books. Men are called to be the protectors of the flock and to be the Head of God's family on earth. Women are not the head, but represent the Church who must follow her Head, who is Christ. Spot on!
Selene said:
Females can be disciples, but they cannot be pastors or priests. In the Old Testament, all the priests were men. In the New Testament, Jesus chose 12 Apostles from his many disciples. Some of those disciples were women, but Jesus chose all men. Only a man can be a pastor or priest because they are the shepherds who takes care of the flock. There are no shephardess and no priestresses in Judaism or in the Old Testament books. Men are called to be the protectors of the flock and to be the Head of God's family on earth. Women are not the head, but represent the Church who must follow her Head, who is Christ.
Spot on! God never changes.
 

101G

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thank God for the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 8:7 "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away

Hebrews 7:11 "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.". HOLD IT, SAY WHAT?, 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law".
Glory to Jesus our Lord and God. the OLD TESTAMENT is NO MORE. the OLD PRIESTHOOD IS DONE AWAY. "If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?".

nothing old will make you perfect. no old wine in new bottles
 

Polt

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101G said:
Phebe our sister is an overseer to the church at rome
Do you really believe your babble? Wave your arms around and Phoebe, literally a "helper" and a humble "servant" (which implies nothing of holding an office or of leadership), becomes an overseer and proof that the Bible supports women pastors.

BTW, the feminine gender of Bishop, among other details, suggests Paul is referring to the office and not to the man ("man of one wife"). So, yes, there is an office. Your explanation for why it's feminine is incoherent, as is everything you post.
 

mjrhealth

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Heres one to throw a spanner in the works, the bride of Christ, is not a bride a female, yet His ecclesia His bride is made up of men and women ??

In all His Love
 

Selene

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101G said:
yes, The topic is pastors, not deacons. you was the one who brought it up
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." (The Greek word used for husband literally means a male. Bishop means overseer or pastor.)

A pastor must be a blameless male. The Bible says it. That settles it. And, you're fighting against God's word. The whole Bible is powerfully consistent with this verse. It's not a gray area. So, you're reduced to blowing smoke and insulting us by asking us to accept your flaming nonsense.


well what about your point, "he must be the husband of one wife?", just as the DEACON. got caught.

now if the bishop qualification, is to have one wife as well as the deacon, then my point is true, the apostle is talking only about the male counter part. because the same qualification for your pastor/bishop, Deacon, "husband of one wife", is the same office qualification. and the office of Deacon which our sister Phebe holds. so the two offices must be reconcile, or else the office of bishop don't qualify for males only. so take your pick. because both office of bishop and deacon states, "must be husband of one wife". MALES ONLY?, LOL.

again reconcile. because you brought up the qualification, :p



Giving thanks to our Lord and God, Jesus the Christ. all glory, all praises to him ONLY.

Greeting 2 all who are called of our Lord Jesus the Christ. Good morning
I must admit, our friend Polt, by bring up the qualification of the Bishop and deacon. open the door to confirm that the apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 3 was speaking about the male counter part to these offices/duties. clearly these offices/duties is also held by women. after re-reading these qualification, the Lord revealed to me my long suspicion that it was for the male counter part only. here's the eye opener. in the opening verse, three things jump out. 1 Timothy 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work". HOLD IT, #1 if this position was for males only, why say "This is a true saying". notice what follows, " If a man desire the office". if this is a male only position why would a male have to desire it. don't make sense.

if the apostle would have said something like this, "the office/duties of a Bishop must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach". this get straight to the point, and then we could see that it is MALE ONLY. nope, nada, didn't happen that way. the verse states, " he desireth a good work". why would you have to say "he", desireth a good work. if this is a male only position, WHY EMPHASIZE "HE", don't make sense.

Only if in contrast with one who is a female in that position. then it makes sense. Just like the Deacon position. for the scriptures states, "Likewise must the deacons". meaning, like the Bishop/pastor/overseer. "the husband of one wife". that want fly. because the position of deacon is a dual gender position.
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) masculine/feminine noun
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
Compare: G1377
Likewise with the deacon, so is the same with the bishop, a feminine noun one can check this out online at the Blue Letter Bible online, http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1984&t=KJV&sf=5

so we see that both men and women hold these duties. as I have been saying, Phebe our sister was a "succourer"
the word, "succourer", here. according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries it's the word,
G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

The KJV renders it here as succourer, Why?. this word succourer, (G4368 προστάτις prostatis), is the feminine of the the proistemi G4291 προΐστημι proistemi, which is for the male in that position.
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule

be over, taking the oversight. this is brought out in the fact the words "Office of a Bishop" is misleading, THERE IS NO OFFICE OF BISHOP. it is the duties only, not an OFFICE. according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. "the office of a bishop," lit., "(if any one seeketh) overseership," there is no word representing office. Note: The corresponding verb is episkopeo, which, in reference to the work of an overseer, is found in 1Pet 5:2, RV, "exercising the oversight," for AV "taking the oversight." See OVERSIGHT. well lets look at this word.
G1983, episkopeo
lit., to look upon" (epi, "upon," skopeo, "to look at, contemplate"), is found in 1Pet 5:2 (some ancient authorities omit it), "exercising the oversight," RV (AV, "taking ..."); "exercising" is the right rendering; the word does not imply the entrance upon such responsibility, but the fulfillment of it. It is not a matter of assuming a position, but of the discharge of the duties. The word is found elsewhere in Heb 12:15, "looking carefully," RV. See LOOK. Cp. episkope in 1Tim 3:1 (See BISHOP, No. 2).

well, well, well. taking the oversight.
in Paul's letter to the Roman Church. Phebe was probably the bearer of this letter. Lets look at this types of Commendation Paul made of Phebe. Paul was writing to the entire church, not just a specific section. (so the idea of only women teaching women is rejected), why?. this letter is to the whole congregation. Romans 1:7a To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. this letter was to the SAINTS meaning HOLY ONES. so Paul is sending her to the HOLY ONES. in order for the apostle to send her to these people, she must be HOLY herself and is well qualified, (yes she was a servant/minister at the church of Cenchrea). letter of recommendations have always been given to qualified people. commend, in conjunction with "received in the Lord", shows again that Phebe was no mere table waiter. the same was done of Epaphroditus, Philippians 2:25-30. here we see that letters were written so that the congregation would receive him. and his work was in the Lord. Phebe was to be received in the Lord as well. it's the lord work. read your commentary on Phil 2:25-30. the phrase, "received in the Lord", was used in reference to those who preached and taught the gospel. Scripture follows. the apostle Paul speaking about Epaphroditus in Philippians 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation". the same was of our sister Phebe

be blessed in the Lord.

Like the English language, the Greek words can have more than one meanings. The Greek word "diakoneo" also means "servant." Phoebe was a servant, but did not hold the office of a deacon. In the same way, the English word "President" can mean "the Chief Executive of the United States," but according to Dictionary.com, it also means a "person who presides at a meeting or a club." The person presiding at a meeting or club would be called a 'President", but he/she is certainly not the leader of the United States. It is the same with the Greek word "diakoneo". Phoebe was a "diakoneo" being a servant inside the Church, but she certainly did not hold the office of deacon, which the Bible specifically belongs to a man.
 

101G

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Revelation 21:9 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal

Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name".

2 Selene greeting

Like the English language, the Greek words can have more than one meanings. The Greek word "diakoneo" also means "servant." Phoebe was a servant, but did not hold the office of a deacon.
SERVANT.
[ A-5,Noun,G5257, huperetes ]
for which, See MINISTER, No. 3, and OFFICER, is translated "servants" in the AV of Matt 26:58; Mark 14:65 (RV, "officers"); in John 18:36, AV and RV (RV, marg., "officers").

Now for your OFFICE of DEACON, :blink:
Notes: (I) In Rom 11:13, AV, diakonia, "a ministry," is translated "office" (RV, "ministry"). (2) In Acts 1:20, RV, episkope, "an overseership," is translated "office" (marg., "overseership;" AV, "bishopric"). (3) In 1Tim 3:1, the word "office," in the phrase "the office of a bishop," has nothing to represent it in the original; the RV marg. gives "overseer" for "bishop," and the phrase lit. is "overseership;" so in 1Tim 3:10, 1Tim 3:13, where the AV has "use (and 'used') the office of a deacon," the RV rightly omits "office," and translates the verb diakoneo, "to serve," "let them serve as deacons" and "(they that) have served (well) as deacons." (smile).




the truth hurts, don't it. and change is hard, people resist change. just as they resist the HOLY SPIRIT, Acts 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
 

Selene

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mjrhealth said:
Heres one to throw a spanner in the works, the bride of Christ, is not a bride a female, yet His ecclesia His bride is made up of men and women ??

In all His Love
The Bride of Christ is actually the Church. The Church as a whole is viewed as female despite that her members consist of males and females. The reason the Church as a whole is viewed as female is because she is the Bride of Christ, who will marry Christ, the Bridegroom. And Christ is not a homosexual who will be married to a male.