The Ascent of the Antichrist

JB_Reformed Baptist · Apr 20, 2013

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In what can only be called a strange sign of the times in which we live, Evangelical reaction to the election of a new Roman Pontiff ranges from mildly encouraged to wildly enthusiastic. Perhaps this only reflects the effete civility of our day. Perhaps it means that American Christians have entirely abandoned theology for politics. Or perhaps it certifies that Protestantism is dead. Whatever the reason, when a few have dared mention what was for centuries the settled opinion of the entire Protestant world – that any “Pope” is and must be Antichrist – many within their own ranks have cried foul.

Insults, Lies & Evaluations
If I call the Pope the Antichrist, do I insult him? After all, it’s not as though I said the Pope’s mother wears combat boots; I am making a more subtle and significant point. An accusation of “insult” requires definition. What is an insult, and is it always wrong?
Some have hurled cruel curses against the Popes, but to the Christian, such language is unworthy. Others paint all Catholic clergy as sexual deviants, which is simply “false witness,” and yes, there is a commandment against it.

Sometimes, though, what sounds like an insult is actually a carefully reasoned evaluation. It is normally an insult to call someone a “Nazi,” but some historians have called Sir Oswald Mosley – the English fascist sympathizer – a “Nazi.” They are not insulting him so much as evaluating him. Similarly, Protestants have called the Pope the “Antichrist.” Is this insult or evaluation?

Antichristos
I suppose many Catholics see evangelicals as a pack of “Left Behind” watching fanatics who imagine the Antichrist as a futuristic horned monster who runs around eating children and slapping barcodes on everyone’s forehead. Goodness knows too many evangelicals are exactly that; maybe this accounts for some of the concern that we are being a little unfair with the Pope.

But this is a recent delusion. For most of history, Protestant Evangelicals have understood antichrist as a character and a concept best described by the Apostle Paul in II Thessalonians 2:1-12. Here is the text:
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We may summarize four descriptives of the Antichrist:

He will seek to enforce faith in himself on the whole earth.
He will call himself God.
He will promote himself with counterfeit miracles.
He will deceive men into believing a lie which condemns rather than saves.

American Evangelicals now look for one great Antichrist figure at the end of the age whose temporary ascendency will be the harbinger of Christ’s return, but this is something of a contemporary anomaly. Historically Protestants considered the words of I John 2:18 – there are “…many antichrists…” – and concluded that the spirit of antichrist is greater than any one person or even institution, but that with the passage of history one central Antichrist could be expected to rise. The consensus position was that this has been fulfilled in the institution of the papacy. Is that an insult, or a reasonable exegetical conclusion?

Popish Abominations
Our confession summarizes the case against the Pope by repeating the Protestant consensus: he is the Antichrist.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Second London Confession of Faith, Chapter XXVI, Paragraph 4

Does this evaluation square with II Thessalonians 2?

1. The Antichrist will “exalt himself against every so-called god or object of worship.” In other words, he will be the head of a megalomaniacal religion. He will not replace the worship of false gods with the worship of the true God, but rather with the worship of himself. Today’s Catholics argue their own relevance by citing more than a billion adherents worldwide. In so doing, they only highlight their leader’s compliance with the first descriptive of the Antichrist. Priests have not brought the gospel, but the sword, the inquisition, and the invented terrors of purgatory – only to say, “Look to us, and we will save you from it all.” Even in our age, when papal ambition wears a cloak of civility, the grand celebrations and claims of vast influence are a very visible form of self-exaltation.

2. The Antichrist will “take his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.” Ever since Wednesday evening we have been hearing what a humble man Pope Francis is, but his supposed humility is undercut by the titles he has assumed. He has allowed himself to be called “Holy Father.” Of course Jesus Himself told us (in Matthew 23:9) to call no man “Father” because God in Heaven is our Father. Moreover, in Colossians 1:18 and elsewhere we are told that Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, yet the Pope assumes this title as well. Finally, when Jesus was preparing to leave He promised to send another to stand in His place, namely the Spirit of Truth. (John 14:17) So the Holy Father, the Head of the Church, and the Vicar (one who stands in the place of) of Christ are none other than God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. What exactly are we to think of a man who assumes all three titles to Himself? Has he not proclaimed himself God?

3. The Antichrist will come with “all power and false signs and wonders.” American Catholics don’t like to talk about it, but the first purveyors of fake miracles were not Pentecostal frauds but Roman Catholic frauds. The system of “sainthood” is based upon fraudulent wonders, as is the false sacrament of the mass. The priest supposedly performs a miraculous transformation of bread and wine into the dead body and blood of Someone who is at the same time risen and seated in heaven. The net effect of this counterfeit supernaturalism is to leave the common adherent in awe, unwilling to question the priests who hold the keys to heaven and hell. Yet not only is none of it verifiable, none of it is remotely consistent with the teaching of Scripture. The pope is the great beneficiary of this grand confidence scheme – the recipient of the loyal adulation of the superstitious.

4. The Antichrist will “delude” men into “believing what is false,” with the result that they are “condemned.” As a prop to their ambition the Popes have denied the transaction which sits at the very heart of the gospel: the imputation of Christ’s righteousness fully and freely to everyone who believes. In its place they have erected a monstrosity – a false gospel in which grace has been conferred by God to the Pope, who distributes it wherever he wills – forgiving sins, but always at a price. Catholics are taught that the church, through its sacraments, will grant them just enough grace to avoid damnation, but this is an abominable lie. It turns the hearts and eyes of men away from the freely offered grace of Christ and toward men. Those who die trusting in this false gospel will be dragged down to hell alongside the Popes who have invented it.

So our Baptist forefathers, together with all other Protestants, were onto something when they identified the Pope as the great Antichrist. Certainly every Pope has met the description offered by the Apostle, and no other man or institution has ever come close to matching them.

What Should We Say?
But is it insulting? Is it hopelessly mean to call the head of someone else’s faith “the Antichrist”? Would it not be more civilized to smile and say what a nice, humble man he is and how glad we are that he supports traditional marriage and opposes abortion?

If the Apostles are an example to us, we ought to realize that part of the task of proclaiming the good news is to oppose heresy in every form. That is why Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.”

Wasn’t Paul being horribly impolite? Of course he was, but he was willing to accept the scorn consequently heaped upon his words. As he said in the very next verse, “For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.”

As servants of Christ, faithful pastors have no choice but to identify the Antichrist whenever he exalts himself. This is no “anti-Catholicism.” We love our Catholic neighbors; we love them so much that we would rather they not go to hell! To that end, every faithful minister of the gospel must speak the truth. Pope Francis is the Antichrist. He is the man of sin and the son of perdition, and one day he will be destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord.

Tom Chantry

Polt · Apr 21, 2013

1John gives us the definition of Antichrist, anyone who denies Jesus is of God. You know of many antichrists, many proud antichrists who even make a religion out of their rejection of Christ, and yet are practically worshiped by many Evangelicals. But, you call the Pope the antichrist, a man who does not deny Jesus is of God.

As for the man of lawlessness, the Pope doesn't call himself God, in spite of his presumptuous title. And, if you want to accuse him of taking the seat in God's temple, then you'd have to recognize the divine legitimacy of the Catholic Church.

Why don't you consider someone like Simon bar Kokhba, a man who claimed to be the Messiah and who restored Israel (if only for a short time). While he lead the Jews after the Temple was destroyed, he minted coins featuring the image of the Temple which he claimed was his rightful seat. Or, maybe Titus Flavius who claimed to be divine and who entered the temple before it was completely destroyed. While at the temple, his men set up Roman banners and worshiped at those banners. Or, you can stick with the Pope just because he's the head of the biggest Christian denomination.

veteran · Apr 21, 2013

JB_Reformed Baptist said:
Antichristos
I suppose many Catholics see evangelicals as a pack of “Left Behind” watching fanatics who imagine the Antichrist as a futuristic horned monster who runs around eating children and slapping barcodes on everyone’s forehead. Goodness knows too many evangelicals are exactly that; maybe this accounts for some of the concern that we are being a little unfair with the Pope.

But this is a recent delusion. For most of history, Protestant Evangelicals have understood antichrist as a character and a concept best described by the Apostle Paul in II Thessalonians 2:1-12. Here is the text:
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We may summarize four descriptives of the Antichrist:

He will seek to enforce faith in himself on the whole earth.

He will call himself God.

He will promote himself with counterfeit miracles.

He will deceive men into believing a lie which condemns rather than saves.

American Evangelicals now look for one great Antichrist figure at the end of the age whose temporary ascendency will be the harbinger of Christ’s return, but this is something of a contemporary anomaly. Historically Protestants considered the words of I John 2:18 – there are “…many antichrists…” – and concluded that the spirit of antichrist is greater than any one person or even institution, but that with the passage of history one central Antichrist could be expected to rise. The consensus position was that this has been fulfilled in the institution of the papacy. Is that an insult, or a reasonable exegetical conclusion?

First problem: the early Church fathers understood the "man of sin" Apostle Paul warned of as a specific individual coming in the last days to exalt himself as God over all that is worshipped, and over all that is called God. That understanding is by NO means some "contemporary anomaly". The Christian Reformers thought the pope in their day was that Antichrist; they were wrong. Those assigning today's pope as that coming Antichrist figure are wrong too (no, I'm not Catholic, I'm a Protestant American decended from French Huguenots).

Furthermore, our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:23-26 was covering the same subject as Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about that coming Wicked one. Jesus gave more detail about the great signs and wonders that coming false one is to do. He stated that false one would, if it were possible, deceive His own elect. The KJV "false Christs" is Greek 'pseudochristos', meaning 'a pseudo Christ'. And in 1 John 2:18 there are TWO "antichrist" objects, the first one is in the singular context. In Rev.13:11 forward John was shown the "another beast" that had two horns LIKE a lamb (Christ), but spake as a dragon. That's the second beast and it is a specific entity, a he. The Book of Daniel has more prophecy of what that certain false one is to do in the last days.

The other part of Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about that coming Antichrist you left out is about his sitting in the temple of God to show himself he is God. That is not about the spiritual temple of Ephesians which represents Christ's Body, Christ Jesus being its Chief Cornerstone, for that spiritual temple of Christ's Body cannot... be corrupted by ANY man. The temple Paul mentioned is about a literal physical temple in Jerusalem where that man of sin will exalt himself as God, as that's also what the Daniel 8, 9, & 11 chapters is pointing to, along with Christ's warning about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem today have been gathering the materials to build that temple in Jerusalem for the last decade.

Thus what you have proposed about the pope having fulfilled all that is NOT "a reasonable exegetical conclusion". Nor is the idea that the pope is the Antichrist figure of 2 Thess.2 the "Protestant consensus". That is simply a thrown out affirmation with no sound basis in Scripture. Nor does it "square" with the 2 Thessalonians 2 prophecy Apostle Paul gave.

But 2 Thessalonians 2 DOES square with Christ's Olivet Discourse of events to occur at the very end of this world, as does His Revelation prophecies about the coming second beast, and also with prophecy about the "little horn" of the Book of Daniel, and even with Paul's warnings in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus".

The fact that the Biblical picture those prophecies paint is DIFFERENT than what's coming out of many Christian seminaries of theology SHOULD provide a clue as to how today's seminary teachings about Bible prophecy for the end are very lacking and undependable.

daq · Jun 29, 2013

JB_ said:
What Should We Say?
But is it insulting? Is it hopelessly mean to call the head of someone else’s faith “the Antichrist”? Would it not be more civilized to smile and say what a nice, humble man he is and how glad we are that he supports traditional marriage and opposes abortion?

If the Apostles are an example to us, we ought to realize that part of the task of proclaiming the good news is to oppose heresy in every form. That is why Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8-9, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.”

Wasn’t Paul being horribly impolite? Of course he was, but he was willing to accept the scorn consequently heaped upon his words. As he said in the very next verse, “For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.”

As servants of Christ, faithful pastors have no choice but to identify the Antichrist whenever he exalts himself. This is no “anti-Catholicism.” We love our Catholic neighbors; we love them so much that we would rather they not go to hell! To that end, every faithful minister of the gospel must speak the truth. Pope Francis is the Antichrist. He is the man of sin and the son of perdition, and one day he will be destroyed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord.

Tom Chantry

YOU are a temple of God:

1 Corinthians 3:9-17 KJV
9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20 KJV
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18 KJV
14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: [GSN#571 apistos - "infidels"] for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [GSN#571 apistos]
16. And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Therefore when you quote the following to substantiate your claims:

Galatians 1:6-8 KJV
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

You unfortunately fail to likewise take into account the following:

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 KJV
3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

As well as the fact that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2 Corinthianss 11:14).

And when you claim that another physical human being has the capability of being "the Antichrist" you pervert the very Gospel message which Paul has delivered. YOU are the worker who is supposed to be building up your own house-temple into Messiah using the foundation which Paul claims to have laid, (which foundation is Yeshua the Lamb of God). YOU are supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit of God.

Paul is clearly warning every disciple of Yeshua to beware of ANGELS, MESSENGERS, INFIDELS, DEVILS, HARLOTS, or UNCLEAN SPIRITS defiling the body, mind, heart, and soul, which together are the temple of God which is YOU.

Therefore when you change the meaning of an "antichrist" to become a "physical man" you then pervert the Gospel so that the finger of accusation is no more pointed at yourself by your own conscience, (which is your accuser). However, when you point your finger at the Pope, (or anyone else for that matter) you still have those three fingers of your own pointing back at you. Likewise, because you see all of this according to the flesh and the eyes and mind of the flesh, you then proceed to "let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8) whosoever it is that you deem not to be adhering to your own faulty and heretical understanding of the Gospel which Paul preached in the name of Yeshua. Is the Pope going to "enter into your temple" claiming to be God? These things speak of unclean spirits. What then if there is already a certain crafty one whispering into your mind how perfected and right you are in your false doctrine? Out of love: repent brother, change your thinking, Paul clearly teaches the same as Yeshua which is that each of us is a temple of the Most High.

John S · Jun 29, 2013

A Pope may very well be the false prophet but he is NOT the antichrist.

Trumpeter · Jun 29, 2013

John S said:
A Pope may very well be the false prophet but he is NOT the antichrist.

Amen,

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

The pope would be the false prophet because the 2nd beast had 2 horns like a lamb [identifying him with Christianity], and he spoke like a dragon [tying him in with Satan]. Verses 11 through 18 introduce us to the second beast (the religious fake, or false prophet) who is the third member of the satanic trinity. The devil imitates the Father, the Antichrist imitates the Son, and the false prophet imitates the Holy Spirit. This religious hypocrite fulfills the prediction of the Saviour who said in Matthew 24:24, for their shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Clearly, the power of the false prophet is in the realm of religion. He is fully equal power with the Antichrist. One heads up the secular world, while the other controls the religious scene. These to work closely together. The Antichrist shares his authority with the false prophet, protecting him and his religious colossus in return for a promise of loyalty and devotion. Thus, as head of the world church, the false prophet sees to it that the Antichrist -who was wounded and resurrected- is worshipped. This second beast is also one of the greatest miracle workers history.

Arnie Manitoba · Jun 29, 2013

It is the non-christian world who embrace the antichrist of prophecy

To suggest the antichrist is a product of the christian church is wild speculation.

The christian church already have Christ , they are not looking for another one

The non christian secular world are the ones wanting a Christ type of leader

So God gives them what they want .... a counterfeit Christ

John S · Jun 29, 2013

Arnie - When referring to the end times, Jesus said that "many will be deceived". Who did He mean? - HIS followers - Christians. He was NOT talking about non-Christians.
It is my opinion that those Christians who believe in the Pre-trib Rapture have already been deceived. How many more will there be when the AC actually arrives?

Arnie Manitoba · Jun 29, 2013

John S said:
John S ..... My comments are in red below .... thanks .... Arnie

Arnie - When referring to the end times, Jesus said that "many will be deceived". Who did He mean? Not to split hairs but we must keep in mind that Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience and his warnings were specific to them .....

HIS followers - Christians. He was NOT talking about non-Christians. I agree that many "grey-area-christians" will be deceived .... but I predict it will be a time of polarization (no more grey area) ..... (real) Christians will move completely toward a position of solid warnings about the counterfeit christ .... and the remainder will pledge solid allegiance to the beast ... even to the point of worship ... no more "middle ground" for the world

It is my opinion that those Christians who believe in the Pre-trib Rapture have already been deceived. We may be wrong about the timing of the rapture but we are not deceived as you suggest ..... nor are we all fools ...... I find the pre-tribbers are the most knowledgeable and careful about endtime events and are prepared for surprises of all kinds.

Thanks
Arnie

afaithfulone4u · Jun 29, 2013

We should understand the body of Christ to be a holy nation of elect individuals who's actions and words should line up with God's Word in whom they claim to love and be one with as in following. They are inheritors of the new restored Israel/Jerusalem yet it is their unity & faithfulness as a nation that makes HER THE WOMAN ISRAEL faithful as Bride/Wife of Christ, to God the Father. They are the children of God and our mother heavenly Jerusalem which I believe to be the wisdom of God who teaches her children to be obedient to their Father by obeying His Word/Son/Christ.
So if we are the body of Christ being many members, just as Jacob(sons) was called Israel(The Woman)... then there must be a body of the Anti-Christ that has members that FAR out way the body of Christ for there are many more on his side in his body on this earth, yet not in power for we have the power of God on our side and HE wins.
So we always know that Satan is the head of his body which are his followers doing his will obeying his ungodly words carrying out his evil deeds in the earth.

As for the Pope we must examine the fruit, no Mary worship, no graven images of Jesus or Mary or anyone especially when we have no actual images but NONE what so eve should we worship or think is God. We are not to worship any man on earth as God, nor should any MAN take credit or glory for himself which the Pope enjoys the worship of people and even those who hate the Word/Jesus and live lives evident of not knowing Jesus at all worship and swoon at this man. Why do they (godly and ungodly alike) love the man but hate Jesus whom the MAN is supposed to be representing & promoting that should be pointing the worship up to GOD, NOT HIMSELF?

As for him being Peter's extension they completely overlook that Peter was just sent to the lost sheep of the CIRCUMCISON and Paul was given the larger task being chosen by Jesus himself to take the gospel to all the world and to the kings, and children of ISRAEL meaning those who would become restored Israel.
Gal 2:8
8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles.
KJV
Acts 9:15-16
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
KJV

Paul was a tent maker, meaning his ministry was not to baptize, but to lift UP our tents/tabernacles/bodies to a higher standard in Christ as the Word and the Spirit operate together to stitch and cut away, burn off within us all the garbage that holds us down in the dust of the earth in our sinful fleshly nature to reveal our spiritual man.

John S · Jun 29, 2013

Arnie - Pre-Tribbers are NOT prepared - and why should they be?
They believe that as soon as the AC arrives, that they will be gone. When they are told that so and so is the AC, they won't believe it because they will still be here, therefore, it's impossible that so and so is the AC. It's simple logic.
If people actually did leave, who would be deceived? - NO ONE.
Jesus wasn't talking about the Jews being deceived. He was talking about MANY of HIS followers.

If I told you tomorrow that so and so is the AC and you actually believed me, then good for you. NOT many Pre-Tribbers will.

veteran · Jun 30, 2013

John S said:
Arnie - Pre-Tribbers are NOT prepared - and why should they be?
They believe that as soon as the AC arrives, that they will be gone. When they are told that so and so is the AC, they won't believe it because they will still be here, therefore, it's impossible that so and so is the AC. It's simple logic.
If people actually did leave, who would be deceived? - NO ONE.
Jesus wasn't talking about the Jews being deceived. He was talking about MANY of HIS followers.

If I told you tomorrow that so and so is the AC and you actually believed me, then good for you. NOT many Pre-Tribbers will.

I believe the Antichrist is going to do something to fulfill the false pre-trib rapture idea for those deceived in that.

Either their preachers will again modify that doctrine to get everyone on-board (simple to do with them), or the Antichrist is going to work a miracle to make them think He is our Lord Jesus. I also believe the orthodox Jews will be paramount in helping AC to accomplish that, to bring them to Jerusalem.

Apply the word 'vultures' below instead of "eagles", for that's the actual meaning...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

BLACK SHEEP · Jul 2, 2013

JB had a lot to say, or whoever he copied and pasted had a lot to say. I've seen it all before dozens of times. But he quoted very little scripture in his demonization of my church. Thanks to the fundamentalist Baptist, who demonize Catholicism more than they preach the gospel, I'll never call myself a 'Protestant.' And the OP just gives me more reason never to associate myself with any Protestant "Catholic Haters." Especially those who can't interpret God's Word without perverting it!

SO! Maybe ONE verse that links Rome to any and-time prophecy would be in order. Otherwise you, and all those who think any church is a harlot, are nothing but misled blasphemers!

Islam is Babylon the Great and Rome will have nothing to do with the end-time other than be demonized by supposed "Christian's."

SO 'JB'. Or anyone else who hates Catholic's and likes to demonize the Church of God. How about putting the bible where you mouth is. Quote one verse of prophecy where Rome is implicated as the beast. I know how difficult it is for Catholic haters to Quote things "in context." But try anyway. Good luck!

Arnie Manitoba · Jul 2, 2013

John S said:
Hi John S .... I have made some comments in red below .... thanks .... Arnie

Arnie - Pre-Tribbers are NOT prepared - and why should they be?
The ones I know are "sort-of" prepared .... admittedly it is mostly a "mindset" ... in my area of about 50,000 people we all kinda know who we are from years of christian intermingling .... and some of us have farms and grain and vegetables , and generators , and cattle and horses ..... so if we had to survive without "the mark" we could ..... kinda like the church in acts I suppose .

They believe that as soon as the AC arrives, that they will be gone. You make a good point ... and i am going to give you a convoluted answers loosely in my own words ...... YES - I feel I will be "raptured out" before the stuff really hits the fan ..... but I think we (pretribbers) will clearly see the stage being set just beforehand .... along the lines of what Jesus said about the budding of the fig tree .... summer is near ..... i also think many world leaders will be in place to usher in an A/C ... we can even see that today ..... most countries are breaking down now .... even powerful USA is faltering as a strong world influence .... When they are told that so and so is the AC, they won't believe it because they will still be here, therefore, it's impossible that so and so is the AC. It's simple logic. .... actually I feel it will be very easy to identify the A/C .... he will require everyone to take the mark for example ..... he will probably come as a "saviour" and it is mentioned he will perform (counterfit) miracles ..... so if the christians are still here we will know him for sure .... and we will know he is the A/C.

If people actually did leave, who would be deceived? - NO ONE. All we pretribbers can do is make a "best guess" ..... and we do that by speculating that after the rapture ..... many of those "left behind" will catch on to what is happening .... and pledge allegiance to Christ and refuse the Beast .... and many will be beheaded ..... HOWEVER there is another possibility that those who refuse the mark during the tribulation are the citizens of Israel ..... as unbeleiving as they are .... the jews are an intelligent people and may figure out the Christians were correct ..... maybe they are the .... "saints and the elect" ... spoken about in revelation ..... I lean in that direction myself but I do not insist I am correct.

Jesus wasn't talking about the Jews being deceived. He was talking about MANY of HIS followers. actually the deception warnings given by Jesus .... he was talking privately to his disciples and it was in "present tense" for them .... not future tense (for us) .... but I feel it is partly a warning for the endtimes as well

We must keep in mind that at the time , (Matt 24) ... all the believers were Jewish .... so were the disciples ..... there were some nasty times just ahead for them .... destruction of the temple and the driving the Jews out of jerusalem in 70 AD etc ..... I am sure those were shockers to the Jewish believers after just having been around Jesus and the early church.

I am not trying to dogmatic about it .... but that portion of Matthew 24 was written exclusively to Jewish believers and the instructions were for them .... the gentiles in the other nations and towns would never be concerned about if this happened on a sabbath ... nor would the gentiles flee from Judea .... nor would the gentiles care if an abomination was in the Holy place .... those things were all Jewish and those things all happened around 70 AD ....... but to be fair ..... there is a point in Matt 24 where the focus does change and begins to speak about ''the whole world"

If I told you tomorrow that so and so is the AC and you actually believed me, then good for you. NOT many Pre-Tribbers will. .... yes I would believe you .... or would probably already have realized it myself ...... and I dare say we would all drop the debates and try to help each other survive the next few years .... I think most christians would do the same in their communities ..... that is another good reason to be at least somewhat involved with the local church

veteran said:
I believe the Antichrist is going to do something to fulfill the false pre-trib rapture idea for those deceived in that.

Either their preachers will again modify that doctrine to get everyone on-board (simple to do with them), or the Antichrist is going to work a miracle to make them think He is our Lord Jesus.

Veteran .... I partly agree that A/C will have plenty up his sleeve as far as deceptions , yes , ..... but God Himself has something profound up his sleeve as well ..... he clearly says that He will send a great delusion on the people who believe the lie .... so that they really believe the lie ...... no more grey area middle ground like we see today between believers and evolutionists and secularism .

The lie cannot be about Jesus coming for his church ... about that He says ..... "look forward to that day with glorious hope"

He has promised to keep us "from His wrath" upon the world .... even if we get the timing wrong he will not abandon us ..... besides .... it is God Himself who is skimpy on church end time information .... mostly we go on faith that He will "keep us from the hour"

The tribulation wrath is for the God-rejecting world ..... it is not for the church ..... we are the church .... we have God , Christ , and Holy Spirit .... we have done what He requires.

Arnie M.

John S · Jul 3, 2013

Black Sheep - I agree with you that the Pope will NOT be the AC but he MIGHT be the false prophet. A prophet is a religious figure. The AC will not be a religious person at first.
Rome, which sits on 7 hills, IS Babylon.

Arnie - The AC won't require anyone to get the Mark on the first day that he arrives. That will probably take a few years.
Today, neither you nor any of your friends, feel the need to use any of your supplies. When the AC arrives, you won't feel the need to use them then either. Expect a virtual nobody at first.
Those who will be deceived will not be just Jews of Israel.
The Elect will consist of 12,000 Jews - the Tribe of Judah. The rest will be Christians.
If I am able to tell you that so and so is the AC, I am willing to say that virtually none of the Pre-Tribbers will believe me. If you do, then good for you. You would be one of the very few.
Believing in the Pre-Trib Doctrine is a VERY bad idea.

veteran · Jul 4, 2013

Arnie Manitoba said:
I believe the Antichrist is going to do something to fulfill the false pre-trib rapture idea for those deceived in that.

Either their preachers will again modify that doctrine to get everyone on-board (simple to do with them), or the Antichrist is going to work a miracle to make them think He is our Lord Jesus.

Veteran .... I partly agree that A/C will have plenty up his sleeve as far as deceptions , yes , ..... but God Himself has something profound up his sleeve as well ..... he clearly says that He will send a great delusion on the people who believe the lie .... so that they really believe the lie ...... no more grey area middle ground like we see today between believers and evolutionists and secularism .

The lie cannot be about Jesus coming for his church ... about that He says ..... "look forward to that day with glorious hope"

He has promised to keep us "from His wrath" upon the world .... even if we get the timing wrong he will not abandon us ..... besides .... it is God Himself who is skimpy on church end time information .... mostly we go on faith that He will "keep us from the hour"

The tribulation wrath is for the God-rejecting world ..... it is not for the church ..... we are the church .... we have God , Christ , and Holy Spirit .... we have done what He requires.

Arnie M.

Click to expand...

You've just got the Biblical concepts wrong Arnie, that's all. It's because of those you're heeding. I assure you, they don't have a clue about what the Bible's endtime event order is, but just follow their organizational doctrines instead. I left the organizational religious doctrines of men a long, long time ago, and began studying for myself, asking God's help.

There's TWO MAIN concepts of 'wrath' for the end. There's the wrath of the serpent or dragon for the tribulation, and then there's God's wrath upon the wicked at the end of the tribulation.

God's wrath is not upon those who keep the Faith and wait for His Son's coming. The particular 'wrath' from God which Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5 takes place at a very... specific time. Paul gave that in relation to the "sudden destruction" he mentioned there.

1Thes 5:3-4
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)

That "sudden destruction" is about the events of the "day of The LORD" when our Lord Jesus returns. The OT prophets were given to write quite a bit about it.

That's the specific time of God's wrath upon the wicked that Paul was pointing to. That wrath will end... the tribulation period.

The "Peace and safety" is what the deceived will be saying DURING the tribulation. That's the time of Satan's wrath upon Christ's Church on earth during the tribulation.

Thus the "great tribulation" is NOT God's wrath, it is Satan's wrath. Exactly how?

Paul showed there in 1 Thess.5 it is the DECEIVED that will be saying that, "Peace and safety", not us.

Stop and think about that.

If the deceived are happy... is the tribulation trials from Satan upon them? No, not really, for they will have given their trust over to the Antichrist, thinking he is God. They will worship him. So Satan has no need to hurt them, for he will have them in his hand where he wants them.

The ONLY ones the Antichrist will not be happy with during the tribulation are those who REFUSE to accept him as God, and refuse to bow in worship to him, or take his mark, etc. So just WHO would REFUSE him? The deceived??? No!

It is US, Christ's Body, His Church, ONLY that will refuse to bow in worship to the coming Antichrist in place of God.

Even the atheist will bow in worship to the Antichrist, for he will have the power to deceive that strongly.

So the tribulation period is upon Christ's Church, not those who will be saying "Peace and safety". That means we HAVE to be here, otherwise there would be no one on earth to refuse the Antichrist as God.

BLACK SHEEP · Jul 15, 2013

John S said:
Black Sheep - I agree with you that the Pope will NOT be the AC but he MIGHT be the false prophet. A prophet is a religious figure. The AC will not be a religious person at first.
Rome, which sits on 7 hills, IS Babylon.

Arnie - The AC won't require anyone to get the Mark on the first day that he arrives. That will probably take a few years.
Today, neither you nor any of your friends, feel the need to use any of your supplies. When the AC arrives, you won't feel the need to use them then either. Expect a virtual nobody at first.
Those who will be deceived will not be just Jews of Israel.
The Elect will consist of 12,000 Jews - the Tribe of Judah. The rest will be Christians.
If I am able to tell you that so and so is the AC, I am willing to say that virtually none of the Pre-Tribbers will believe me. If you do, then good for you. You would be one of the very few.
Believing in the Pre-Trib Doctrine is a VERY bad idea.

The pope is powerless to do what is written in prophecy about the false prophet. An evil Muslim cleric would have no problem accomplishing Satan's end-time abominations.

Whether you agree or not, the pope is a Christian man and the Catholic Church is a Christian Church.

The verse you're referring to about the seven hills a typical Protestant blunder. The word is 'oros' and is translated mountain. Also. Rome does not sit on seven hills. There are seven hills east of the Tiber river and Rome i.e. Vatican Hill is on the west side of the Tiber. That makes 8 hills total. Babylon is Babylon. It's not Rome, the EU, The U.S. or anything else other than being associated with false religion.

And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3735
Rome isn't a city of seven mountains. If John wanted to indicate hills, he would have used a different word.

In response to your reply to Arnie. The mark of the beast isn't imposed by the anti-Christ. It's imposed by the false prophet. The only religion today that has complete political and economic authority over it's citizens is Islam. And the mark of the beast will be limited to the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast. It's not worldwide.

Arnie Manitoba · Jul 15, 2013

BLACK SHEEP said:
In response to your reply to Arnie. The mark of the beast isn't imposed by the anti-Christ. It's imposed by the false prophet. The only religion today that has complete political and economic authority over it's citizens is Islam. And the mark of the beast will be limited to the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast. It's not worldwide.

BLACK SHEEP says ....... the mark of the beast will be limited to the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast. It's not worldwide.

I say .... ... maybe read those chapters of revelation again Mr Sheep ......

.......... And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast

Then I saw a second beast ...... it deceived the inhabitants of the earth ..... It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark

The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

Best wishes in your reading
Arnie M

BLACK SHEEP · Jul 16, 2013

Arnie Manitoba said:
BLACK SHEEP says ....... the mark of the beast will be limited to the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast. It's not worldwide.

I say .... ... maybe read those chapters of revelation again Mr Sheep ......

.......... And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast

Then I saw a second beast ...... it deceived the inhabitants of the earth ..... It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark

The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

Best wishes in your reading
Arnie M

Arnie,

I've probably read Revelation 13 and 17 over 100 times. The real question is, "how" and how often have YOU studied it? The reason why the experts and most Christian's believe in a one world government and a united one world religion is they disregard the meaning of the words all and earth in the original text. You can't study God's Prophetic Word in the English translation and expect to get things right esp. the specifics. Let me remind you that the word inspired means "God breathed or God Spoke." When God spoke to His Prophets, He spoke to them in the language they also spoke, understood, and wrote in. So lets look at the words John used in the Greek and/or Aramaic.

Regardless of what resource I look at...whether Strong's, Thayer's, Vines, or Wuest, they all say the same thing about the word all.
In the Greek and Hebrew lexicon there are over 130 words for all and they're used 7 or 8 different ways. Prophecy experts use Rev. 13 and 17 to support a global dictator and united one world religion. Revelation 13 is a good chapter to explain some of the different ways the word all is used. The word all doesn't have a universal meaning in the bible. It doesn't always mean "everything." All and earth are some of the most misunderstood words in all of Christianity.

Revelation 13 is an excellent chapter to explain two different ways the word all is used.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all (holos) the world wondered after the beast.

Holos means the whole ball of wax. The entire world will indeed wonder after the beast. The world will marvel if someone who was once dead returns to form a united kingdom. BUT! In Revelation 13:7-8, all is a different word. It's the word "PAS" and it has a different "limited" meaning to the word all.

Revelation 13:7-8 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all (pas) kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The person mentioned in Rev. 13:7-8 could be the same person mentioned in Revelation 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

'Pas' means individually and in a nutshell means all those that are his/under his authority...i.e. those within his kingdom. It doesn't imply all kindreds, and tongues, and nations of the entire earth. It implies all kindreds, tongues, and nations "within his authority, under his power, and within his kingdom." The word 'all' resorts back to the word 'him!' NOT TO THE WORD EARTH. It doesn't imply that the whole world will be under the authority of the beast. It implies that all kindreds, and tongues, and nations within his authority are subject to him...i.e. the mark. Only those under his authority and within his kingdom will he have power to impose the mark.

Two different words with two different meanings. If John wanted to imply the entire world in verse 7-8 he would have used the word 'holos.'
Another major interpretational blunder of the prophecy is this....

The word world and earth doesn't always imply the entire earth. It can mean land, the ground, the earth as a whole, the inhabited earth, a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, a territory, or a region. Context and the use of the word all is often what determines how to interpret the word world and earth.
Here are other examples of the word 'pas.' (all)-individually where it doesn't mean the entirety of the whole.

3 John 1:12 Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true.

All men did not know Demetrius and he didn't know all men!

Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Not everyone was sick so Jesus didn't heal the multitudes but only the sick!

Matthew 21:10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

Do you think that the entire city was moved and said, 'Who is this?'

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Regardless of who you believe this empire was, no empire at any time in history has ever ruled over all the earth.

There are dozens of examples in the New and Old Testament where all only implies a part of the whole. If a verse says that all the people were astonished, it means that all the people who were there were astonished. This sort of thing is found throughout scripture.

What is the mark of the beast?
The number of the verses in the Koran according to the scholars:
Ibn-i Abbas (ra): 6616,
Nafi (ra): 6217,

Shayba (ra): 6214
Scholars of Egypt (ra): 6226,
Zamahshari (ra)
(the genius Eloquence Scholar of the Arabic language and literature);
6666.
Bediuzzaman, mujaddid (the reformer) of the13.century, also has the opinion of
6666 verses.

The 666 as written in the ORIGINAL Greek looks very much the same as "in the name of allah" as written in Arabic.
The mark is just as I said it is in a previous post.

The mark is forced upon people to prove they are Muslim. To buy or sell, people within the anti-christ kingdom will be required to carry a Koran in their right hand or have the identification mark of the zebibba, which is a patch of hardened skin on the forehead of devout/fanatical Muslim's. OR they'll be required to wear a bandana with the Arabic inscription of Allah which actually looks like 666.

What in the world makes people think that one man could have the power and authority to unite the world's religions? (Or governments)
I've asked several of the experts just what verses they use to justify a unified one world religion. They are...

Rev. 17 the entire chapter.

1 Tim. 4:1-3
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Revelation 13:12 　And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
　
　
　

Arnie Manitoba · Jul 16, 2013

BLACK SHEEP said:
The word world and earth doesn't always imply the entire earth. It can mean land, the ground, the earth as a whole, the inhabited earth, a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, a territory, or a region. Context and the use of the word all is often what determines how to interpret the word world and earth.

I only go by what the bible says , sorry

And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast

The Ascent of the Antichrist

Many are called but few are chosen.

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