What is Grace?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

spockrates

New Member
Apr 13, 2012
34
0
0
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Read, pray, study...



But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27
Yes, the Holy Spirit does reveal truth, but please don't underestimate his willingness to do the revealing through you!

:)

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect...

(1 Peter 3:15)

mjrhealth said:
When my grand daughter wakes up in the morning, I change her nappy, we have a little play, she lets me knows shes hungry, I make her a bottle I feed her, thats what she expects, from me her grand father, that is grace.
When she teething, and her mouth is giving her trouble, and she is all grisly, and cant settle, we dont get angry at her,we try comfort her give her what she needs. thats grace.
When we feed her too much and she decorates us with her previously eaten dinner, we dont get angry we clean her up and go on, that is grace.
Next time she poohs her self, and we change her, we wont get mad at her, we will clean her up and make her comfortable, thats what good parents do, that is grace.

Any one who says he does not sin is a liar, we all sin even those who are in Christ, sin is condemned to our flesh, our flesh is dead to God, it is unsaveable, and just like little children when we mess up. God just asks us to go to Him so He can clean us up an we can go on with Him, that is grace, but the religious hate the things of God, they want to prove themselves to Him, think they can obtain salvation through there own works, but will always fall short, they have rejected Grace and given themselves over to the flesh, blind men leading blind men.

In all His Love
Hi, Health. Is this what grace is, or examples of how grace applies? When your grad daughter gets old enough to ask you what color is, will you tell her, "Red, blue, yellow and many more!" Or will you try to answer her question by telling her what these colors all have in common, which makes them colors? For the thing colors all have in common is what color is, I think.

You have given me many specific examples of graces. That for which I'm asking is the one thing these examples all have in common. That one thing, I think is what grace is. Don't you think?


-------------------------------------

Hey, all:

I'm now wondering if it is possible that the truth is grace is neither merely God's favor, nor only God's power, but is in fact both. Please let me know what you think.
 

Rex

New Member
Oct 17, 2012
2,060
122
0
Kingman AZ
spockrates said:
-------------------------------------

Hey, all:

I'm now wondering if it is possible that the truth is grace is neither merely God's favor, nor only God's power, but is in fact both. Please let me know what you think.
Grace is the vehicle that God delivers good gifts to those who are undeserving "which is everyone" Paul dose a good job of applying grace to many attributes.
Do a search on the word grace in the NT.

John 1:14
Grace is delivered threw Jesus.
John 1:16
Grace is the delivery method, 1984 NIV says, We have all received one blessing after another.
John 1:17
The difference between the law and grace, the law is not a vehicle of delivery, Gal 2:16
Acts 6:8
grace and power are two separate things.
Acts 11:23
grace is a visible attribute
Acts 13:43
we are to continue in grace not the law.
Acts 14:26
grace to enable the completion of work
Acts 15:11
Grace we are saved
Acts 18:27
by grace we believe "God makes himself known" and begins a relationship with the undeserving
Acts 20:24
Grace is the Gospel of Christ
Acts 20:32
the word of his grace can build you up, it's separate from sanctification, sanctification has already taken place.
Romans 1:5
Grace and obedience to the law are two separate things. Grace is received, you are called to obedience threw faith.
Romans 4:16
Again we see grace is the delivery vehicle, grace is the guaranteed method of deliver to all.

I think you get the Idea, the 1984 NIV I searched in has 100 NT references to grace, and as I said Paul expounds on the necessity of grace in every good thing.


I nearly forgot the best of all
2 Cor 12:9
GRACE IS SUFFICIENT


and there's the power, the denying of yourself that God my be manifest.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Mat_23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat_5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat_18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Can you not see the theme????

I have a friend who first came to Christ with childlike faith, He bestowed many miracles for she believed like a child, the moment she went to church and started to read the bible and started questioning things as an adult, it all fell apart and she is the first to admit it. I have unmerited favor from my father that is Grace, when I mess up I dont have to ask, He is already working on me to clean me up, that is grace, He sent His son to pay my bill, a very expensive one at His cost not mine, undeserved not earned, that is Grace.

Dont you understand?

In all His Love
 

spockrates

New Member
Apr 13, 2012
34
0
0
Rex said:
Grace is the vehicle that God delivers good gifts to those who are undeserving "which is everyone" Paul dose a good job of applying grace to many attributes.
Do a search on the word grace in the NT. ...

Acts 6:8
grace and power are two separate things. ...

I think you get the Idea, the 1984 NIV I searched in has 100 NT references to grace, and as I said Paul expounds on the necessity of grace in every good thing. ...
Thanks, Rex for those insights, especially the one verse you mentioned:

Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.

(Acts 6:8)

But I wonder if Luke is really making the point that grace and power are not the same. For this passage comes to mind:

"Therefore I will teach them—
this time I will teach them
my power and might.
Then they will know
that my name is the Lord."

(Jeremiah 16:21)

And I'm sure you agree that power is not different from might, simply because the two words have the word and between them.

:)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
spockrates said:
Thanks, Rex for those insights, especially the one verse you mentioned:

Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.

(Acts 6:8)

But I wonder if Luke is really making the point that grace and power are not the same. For this passage comes to mind:

"Therefore I will teach them—
this time I will teach them
my power and might.
Then they will know
that my name is the Lord."

(Jeremiah 16:21)

And I'm sure you agree that power is not different from might, simply because the two words have the word and between them.

:)
I don't know what translation you got that verse from, but the Hebrew says hand and strength, not power and might.
 

spockrates

New Member
Apr 13, 2012
34
0
0
mjrhealth said:
Mat_23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat_5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat_18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Can you not see the theme????

I have a friend who first came to Christ with childlike faith, He bestowed many miracles for she believed like a child, the moment she went to church and started to read the bible and started questioning things as an adult, it all fell apart and she is the first to admit it. I have unmerited favor from my father that is Grace, when I mess up I dont have to ask, He is already working on me to clean me up, that is grace, He sent His son to pay my bill, a very expensive one at His cost not mine, undeserved not earned, that is Grace.

Dont you understand?

In all His Love
I think I understand, and I agree that I should keep a childlike trust in God my Father. Yet, I believe he does not desire that I should remain immature in my wisdom. For the writer of Hebrews tells me:

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

(Hebrews 5)

By seeking to know what I should believe and why I should believe it, I hope to grow in both the love and wisdom of Christ.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I don't know what translation you got that verse from, but the Hebrew says hand and strength, not power and might.
I was quoting from the NIV, as you were.

:)

How about this one?

Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

(Isaiah 40:26)

Is God's great power different from his mighty strength?

You see, sometimes a biblical author repeats himself for emphasis. Two phrases separated by the word and do not necessarily mean they convey unlike things. The words "grace and power" in and of themselves do not necessarily mean "grace is not power". What we need is a biblical passage the clearly states grace is not God's power. Then we will have a sound and rational reason to confidently make such a claim.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
spockrates said:
I think I understand, and I agree that I should keep a childlike trust in God my Father. Yet, I believe he does not desire that I should remain immature in my wisdom. For the writer of Hebrews tells me:

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

(Hebrews 5)

By seeking to know what I should believe and why I should believe it, I hope to grow in both the love and wisdom of Christ.

I was quoting from the NIV, as you were.

:)

How about this one?

Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

(Isaiah 40:26)

Is God's great power different from his mighty strength?

You see, sometimes a biblical author repeats himself for emphasis. Two phrases separated by the word and do not necessarily mean they convey unlike things. The words "grace and power" in and of themselves do not necessarily mean "grace is not power". What we need is a biblical passage the clearly states grace is not God's power. Then we will have good reason to make such a claim.
Again, the Hebrew is different. Virility and vigor, not power and might.

I'm not so sure about the Hebrew, but in the Greek there is a difference between power and might. Power really means ability, and might means strength.
 

spockrates

New Member
Apr 13, 2012
34
0
0
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Again, the Hebrew is different. Virility and vigor, not power and might.
Is virility the opposite of vigor?

Are they not synonyms?

See why the words "grace and power" are insufficient to say with certainty and confidence that grace is powerless? We need a more clear passage to interpret Acts 6:8, I think.

I have one in mind that I hope you will consider.

:)

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I'm not so sure about the Hebrew, but in the Greek there is a difference between power and might. Power really means ability, and might means strength.
Here is another one. How does the Greek or Hebrew render it?

“Lord, the God of our ancestors, are you not the God who is in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in your hand, and no one can withstand you."

(2 Chronicles 20:6)

It's OK if you don't agree. I just wanted you to see why I find Acts 6:8 insufficient to convince me that grace is powerless. Indeed, how can that which is sufficient have no power to save us?

:)
 

ScottAU

New Member
Feb 27, 2013
209
25
0
Rex said:
Scotty If you don't understand the simple doctrine of salvation I have no Idea what it is you teach or believe, all I can say is it's another Gospel.

Romans 3:24
Romans 6:23


Romans 10:9-11


So were does it say we will be made perfect or completely sinless. Or I should say how then are we redeemed in your opinion?

Every place I read it says WE should put off the deeds of the flesh, not the new man is free from from the deeds of the flesh.
In every instance it is said WE should put off. not it is completely taken away. Your perfect man scenario is a works of the flesh, a false doctrine that enslaves men back into the bondage of the law.


Gal 3:11
Romans 3:20
Gal 2:16


17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles "Nations" because of you.

It is not another Gospel to contend for the truth that sinners must FORSAKE their rebellion to God BEFORE God grants forgiveness. Such a thing is not another Gospel nor is it in opposition to grace.

I have clearly presented the scriptural basis of the grace of God that brings salvation (Tit 2:11-14) being directly connected to the quickening (being made alive again) (Eph 2:5) which is where God regenerates the spirit of the repentant sinner (Act 3:19) thus bringing them from a state of darkness to light (Act 26:18) and it is via this dynamic the the former sins of the repentant sinner are forgiven (Act 3:19, Act 26:18).

You alluded to Rom 3:24 the context of which I would like to address...

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

We are justified by grace IN THAT "redemption IS IN Jesus Christ."

The above passage is clearly teaching that justification is via "faith" as opposed to the "deeds of the law" (Rom 3:28) which is something Paul repeats in Rom 4:5 and Gal 5:4-6. Faith is not simply "trusting in something" APART from "doing." This is where modern theology seriously errs. I'll try and explain.

The Pharisees had the "Law of Moses" and they thought that their justification was connected to "keeping the letter" of this law. What they did not understand was that the "Law of Moses" was but a shadow of the "Law of Christ" which is spiritual. If you look at Gal 5:6 Paul explicitly states that "faith works by love" and in Gal 5:14 he states that "love fulfills the law."

If we "love our neighbour from a pure heart" then we will not do that which is evil to them. Thus an individual who loves does not murder, steal, lie or cheat. The actual "outward deeds" of benevolence to one's neighbour IS NOT what justifies the individual for "outward deeds" can be done with insincere motives. Thus it is not the "deeds of the law" which justify a person, rather it is a "faith that works by love" where genuine justification or righteousness is found. This is what Paul is teaching in the his letter to the Galations.

The Church in Galatia were being drawn into "law keeping" as the means of justification APART from a "faith that works by love." Thus they were being deceived into serving the shadow as opposed to the source. Specifically it was the "rite of circumcision" which they were being compelled to keep in order to be righteous. Paul understood that the "rite of circumcision" was connected to this...

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Adherrance to OUTWARD ordinances does not purify the soul. Paul further elaborated on this idea to the Corinthians when he wrote...

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

This is what grace is all about. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith because the dynamic of salvation is wrought in yielding to God so that the light of God MANIFEST THROUGH US. Hence...

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Grace is not some free gift which one simply trusts in. Grace is the power of God we WALK IN whereby we manifest the outward fruit of righteousness due to having our hearts made clean via the implanted word (Joh 15:3-5, Jam 1:21).

Thus...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The new birth is a result of obeying God from the heart whereby we put off the old man (whereby we served Satan) and we put on the new man (whereby we serve Christ). This is why Paul writes...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Genuine faith IS obedience to God. Abraham possessed a faith whereby he was totally convinced that what God said was true (Rom 4:20-22) and thus WALKED in the steps of that faith (Rom 4:12) and it is THIS KIND of faith that God reckons as righteousness (Rom 4:5).

I'll reiterate briefly with the words of Jesus...

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus is teaching the Gospel of grace in those words. Righteousness is not in keeping the letter of the law as the Pharisees thought they did, rather it is of circumcision of the heart (Col 2:11) whereby we are empowered by God to walk in the light (Col 2:12-13). Hence it is by the Spirit that we put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:13).

There is NOTHING FORENSIC about salvation. Salvation is an actual manifest state of abiding in Jesus Christ with a pure heart. This is why there can be no rebellion to God for this state to continue. The false teachers have utterly perverted everything I have written above and they call people like me "false teachers" because I tell people that they have to stop sinning. Yet I compell people to seriously examine their doctrine, am I really preaching error as some on this board claim?


Here is another scripture you alluded to Rex...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does that contradict anything I teach? NO! God has indeed given us the gift of eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. We MUST ABIDE IN HIM. We either abide in sin as the old man or we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as new creations. Those are the two roads.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The entire theme of the Bible totally contradicts the present day teaching that "you can sin and not surely die" which is taught via "positional salvation" due to a "legal transaction made on the cross" whereby one becomes IDENTIFIED WITH CHRIST IN POSITION yet it still MANIFESTLY WICKED. This false gospel message it an insidious and very effectual deception which is fooling the multitude of professing Christianity.

The death of Christ was a RESCUE not a SUBSTITUTION. Jesus did not swap places with anyone, There are two major facets to His sacrifice that I can clearly see.

1. Sin offering whereby our past transgression are purged by the blood (Heb 9:14).
2. A death and rebirth which we partake in via repentance and faith (Rom 4:4-7).


Rex, you also brought up this scripture...

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Which is an allusion to this...

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

The false teachers IGNORE the...

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

believeth - pisteuō - G4100
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

unbelief - apistia - G570
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.
Confessing Christ with the mouth and believing in the heart IS NOT a mere mental exercise. It relates to ABIDING IN THE TRUTH which means you WALK IN IT. The false teachers cherry pick passages like Rom 10:10 and others and create their "Romans Road to Salvation" and deceive people straight to hell with a doctrine which makes an allowance for the ongoing commission of rebellion to God. The Bible is not a menu where we can pick out a few verses and build an entire systematic theology upon those verses whilst ignoring the whole counsel of God.

James clearly connected the profession of Christ with what one does...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The walk must match the profession.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The Bible means what it says.

Don't twist it.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter was not giving an idle warning above. The error of the wicked will damn those who buy into it.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Untill one comes to that point in their life where they realis that all teh know is wrong and that all the truth is in Christ, and do teh one thing He asked them to do,

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
Joh 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

But it is as it is written,

1Co_3:3 For you are yet carnal. For in that there is among you envyings and strife and divisions, are you not carnal, and do you not walk according to men?

And so many who claim they are searching for teh truth never find it for it is in Christ,

Rom 8:5 For they who are according to the flesh mind the things of flesh, but they who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Do you really want to grow, than you need to do,

More of Him and less of me

Jesus sent us the Holt Spirit to lead us into all the turth, all teh truth is in Christ not in the bible, many know the bible so few know Christ, many led by teh flesh so few obedient to the leading of teh Holy Spirit, so many put the bible before God as if it is greater than Him, so few put God first, and so they dont grow, for they have bound Him hand and foot and wont let Him do as He pleases.

In all His Love
 

Rex

New Member
Oct 17, 2012
2,060
122
0
Kingman AZ
ScottAU said:
It is not another Gospel to contend for the truth that sinners must FORSAKE their rebellion to God BEFORE God grants forgiveness. Such a thing is not another Gospel nor is it in opposition to grace.

I have clearly presented the scriptural basis of the grace of God that brings salvation (Tit 2:11-14) being directly connected to the quickening (being made alive again) (Eph 2:5) which is where God regenerates the spirit of the repentant sinner (Act 3:19) thus bringing them from a state of darkness to light (Act 26:18) and it is via this dynamic the the former sins of the repentant sinner are forgiven (Act 3:19, Act 26:18).

You alluded to Rom 3:24 the context of which I would like to address...

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

We are justified by grace IN THAT "redemption IS IN Jesus Christ."

The above passage is clearly teaching that justification is via "faith" as opposed to the "deeds of the law" (Rom 3:28) which is something Paul repeats in Rom 4:5 and Gal 5:4-6. Faith is not simply "trusting in something" APART from "doing." This is where modern theology seriously errs. I'll try and explain.

The Pharisees had the "Law of Moses" and they thought that their justification was connected to "keeping the letter" of this law. What they did not understand was that the "Law of Moses" was but a shadow of the "Law of Christ" which is spiritual. If you look at Gal 5:6 Paul explicitly states that "faith works by love" and in Gal 5:14 he states that "love fulfills the law."

If we "love our neighbour from a pure heart" then we will not do that which is evil to them. Thus an individual who loves does not murder, steal, lie or cheat. The actual "outward deeds" of benevolence to one's neighbour IS NOT what justifies the individual for "outward deeds" can be done with insincere motives. Thus it is not the "deeds of the law" which justify a person, rather it is a "faith that works by love" where genuine justification or righteousness is found. This is what Paul is teaching in the his letter to the Galations.

The Church in Galatia were being drawn into "law keeping" as the means of justification APART from a "faith that works by love." Thus they were being deceived into serving the shadow as opposed to the source. Specifically it was the "rite of circumcision" which they were being compelled to keep in order to be righteous. Paul understood that the "rite of circumcision" was connected to this...

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Adherrance to OUTWARD ordinances does not purify the soul. Paul further elaborated on this idea to the Corinthians when he wrote...

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

This is what grace is all about. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith because the dynamic of salvation is wrought in yielding to God so that the light of God MANIFEST THROUGH US. Hence...

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Grace is not some free gift which one simply trusts in. Grace is the power of God we WALK IN whereby we manifest the outward fruit of righteousness due to having our hearts made clean via the implanted word (Joh 15:3-5, Jam 1:21).

Thus...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The new birth is a result of obeying God from the heart whereby we put off the old man (whereby we served Satan) and we put on the new man (whereby we serve Christ). This is why Paul writes...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Genuine faith IS obedience to God. Abraham possessed a faith whereby he was totally convinced that what God said was true (Rom 4:20-22) and thus WALKED in the steps of that faith (Rom 4:12) and it is THIS KIND of faith that God reckons as righteousness (Rom 4:5).

I'll reiterate briefly with the words of Jesus...

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus is teaching the Gospel of grace in those words. Righteousness is not in keeping the letter of the law as the Pharisees thought they did, rather it is of circumcision of the heart (Col 2:11) whereby we are empowered by God to walk in the light (Col 2:12-13). Hence it is by the Spirit that we put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:13).

There is NOTHING FORENSIC about salvation. Salvation is an actual manifest state of abiding in Jesus Christ with a pure heart. This is why there can be no rebellion to God for this state to continue. The false teachers have utterly perverted everything I have written above and they call people like me "false teachers" because I tell people that they have to stop sinning. Yet I compell people to seriously examine their doctrine, am I really preaching error as some on this board claim?


Here is another scripture you alluded to Rex...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does that contradict anything I teach? NO! God has indeed given us the gift of eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. We MUST ABIDE IN HIM. We either abide in sin as the old man or we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as new creations. Those are the two roads.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The entire theme of the Bible totally contradicts the present day teaching that "you can sin and not surely die" which is taught via "positional salvation" due to a "legal transaction made on the cross" whereby one becomes IDENTIFIED WITH CHRIST IN POSITION yet it still MANIFESTLY WICKED. This false gospel message it an insidious and very effectual deception which is fooling the multitude of professing Christianity.

The death of Christ was a RESCUE not a SUBSTITUTION. Jesus did not swap places with anyone, There are two major facets to His sacrifice that I can clearly see.

1. Sin offering whereby our past transgression are purged by the blood (Heb 9:14).
2. A death and rebirth which we partake in via repentance and faith (Rom 4:4-7).


Rex, you also brought up this scripture...

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Which is an allusion to this...

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

The false teachers IGNORE the...

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

believeth - pisteuō - G4100
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

unbelief - apistia - G570
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.
Confessing Christ with the mouth and believing in the heart IS NOT a mere mental exercise. It relates to ABIDING IN THE TRUTH which means you WALK IN IT. The false teachers cherry pick passages like Rom 10:10 and others and create their "Romans Road to Salvation" and deceive people straight to hell with a doctrine which makes an allowance for the ongoing commission of rebellion to God. The Bible is not a menu where we can pick out a few verses and build an entire systematic theology upon those verses whilst ignoring the whole counsel of God.

James clearly connected the profession of Christ with what one does...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The walk must match the profession.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The Bible means what it says.

Don't twist it.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Peter was not giving an idle warning above. The error of the wicked will damn those who buy into it.
Scotty I was replying to your comment about this
ScottAU said:
My name is Scott, not Dan.


Yes Jesus purchased us with His blood. He ransomed us from the dominion of sin via His blood. For the blood of Christ purges us of sin.

Yet where does the Bible teach that Jesus "paid the penalty you owe" ???

Where does the Bible teach that Jesus "satisfied the wrath of God by acting as your substitute and receiving your punishment in your place" ????

Not a single one of those verses you references state anything like that.



I find it amazing how people cling to doctrines that the Bible does not teach, especially when challenged to prove their doctrine from the Scripture.

Here is an article I wrote on this subject....


The Blood of Christ: Ransom not Substitution
http://thesinmuststop.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-blood-of-christ-ransom-not-penal.html




The doctrine of Penal Substitution is a doctrine of demons.
I see you wrote an article, If you want to continue the conversation please address the topic instead of reciting a couple of dozen paragraphs before getting to the point.

The only thing I see that defends your position is you quote from 1 John 3:6 I suggest you consult some other bibles as well as look into the old English used in the KJV to bring clarity Johns intent in the meaning.


spockrates said:
Is virility the opposite of vigor?

Are they not synonyms?

See why the words "grace and power" are insufficient to say with certainty and confidence that grace is powerless? We need a more clear passage to interpret Acts 6:8, I think.

I have one in mind that I hope you will consider.

:)
The power of grace

Grace is a Spirit Zech 12:10
Grace is a crown Proverbs 4:9
And Grace is what Jesus delivered Psalm 45:1-6

We could very well say Jesus is grace delivered unto man. He came as a child wearing the crown of grace. Luke 2:40



And here is one the NIV missed, the stone the builders rejected
Zech 4:7 KJV
 

ScottAU

New Member
Feb 27, 2013
209
25
0
Being under grace empowers the Christian to go and sin no more.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Under grace our behaviour is no longer regimented by rules and regulations (law).


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Due to our behaviour no longer being regimented by rules and regulations (law) does this mean that we shall sin? No it does not.


Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If we sin it reveals we are the slave of sin (Joh 8:34). Whom we yield to reveals the master we serve, either sin or Christ (sin is simply choosing to do wrong when one knows to do right).


Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

We were previously the slaves of sin because we obeyed sin, we were set free from this state of affairs by obeying from our hearts the doctrine of Christ.


Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

In obeying Jesus Christ (His teachings) we are set free from being a servant of sin, which we have exchanged to serve righteousness instead.


Romans 8:2 is a verse that I hold very dear to my heart for in it Paul imparts the understanding that it is by living in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we are set free from the cycle of sinning unto death (sin, I am sorry, sin, I am sorry, sin, I am sorry) which the wretched man of Romans 7:14-25 clearly struggled with.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law could not purify the heart because it only regimented the outer man. The law was weak through the flesh for the law could not, in and of itself, motivate a person to do that which is right.

The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us and showed us how it is through the Spirit that the lusts of the flesh can be conquered. Thus it is in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that the outward righteousness that the law illustrated may be fulffilled IN us for we walk not according to the flesh (and its passions) but rather according to the Spirit.

Hence the children of God are those who are led by the Spirit and thus put to death the deeds of the body (they do not submit the vessel of the body to sin).

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


It is such a beautiful thing God has provided for us.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
ScottAU said:
There is NOTHING FORENSIC about salvation. Salvation is an actual manifest state of abiding in Jesus Christ with a pure heart. This is why there can be no rebellion to God for this state to continue. The false teachers have utterly perverted everything I have written above and they call people like me "false teachers" because I tell people that they have to stop sinning. Yet I compell people to seriously examine their doctrine, am I really preaching error as some on this board claim?
This is where you err and demonstrate your unbelief. The blood of the lamb covers sin and is eternally on the mercy seat; therefore sin is eternally covered for those who put their faith in it. As long as we abide in faith that the blood has the power to cover any sin (except unbelief) we remain in Christ. If we abide in Christ we bring forth fruit and are not broken off. Sinning breaks the fellowship, but it does not destroy the relationship. If we repent and do the work of GOD (believe into Christ), fellowship is restored; if not, corrective action will be taken just as a loving father seeks to correct any wayward child of his. Those who through unbelief do not abide in Christ are broken off.

Your faith is in the wrong thing. You believe a methodology will save you. It will not. It can only produce an imagined holiness. Only faith in the blood of the lamb to cover your sins will save you.

You display such a breathtaking ignorance of the full context of scripture. I feel sorry for you. You have a zeal, but it is so misdirected, and you are so blind.


Rex said:
Scotty I was replying to your comment about this

I see you wrote an article, If you want to continue the conversation please address the topic instead of reciting a couple of dozen paragraphs before getting to the point.
Dan Scott is only able to argue from the laundry list of cult talking points. He's lost without it. He hasn't internalized the truth because he doesn't know it. Thus a huge laundry list of talking points any time time he discusses any issue, large or small.


ScottAU said:
If we sin it reveals we are the slave of sin (Joh 8:34). Whom we yield to reveals the master we serve, either sin or Christ (sin is simply choosing to do wrong when one knows to do right).

In obeying Jesus Christ (His teachings) we are set free from being a servant of sin, which we have exchanged to serve righteousness instead.
And this is another ridiculous mistake you make. Your thinking is so muddled you confuse the position of having been ransomed and made a slave of righteousness, with an act of disobedience which demonstrates being a slave (in the mind) to a sin. But this is because you believe (in your heart) that salvation is an act of the will, not GOD's grace. Therefore, you can only conclude that if someone commits a sin, he has to be a slave of sin and has never really repented or believed in Christ; because if he had done so he wouldn't have sinned.

That reasoning is so ridiculous it's pathetic. Your religion is in your mind, not your heart. Subsequently, there is no leeway or grace in your beliefs. I'm starting to get a picture of the type of person Luke 19:20 refers to.


ScottAU said:
I have clearly presented the scriptural basis of the grace of God that brings salvation (Tit 2:11-14) being directly connected to the quickening (being made alive again) (Eph 2:5) which is where God regenerates the spirit of the repentant sinner (Act 3:19) thus bringing them from a state of darkness to light (Act 26:18) and it is via this dynamic the the former sins of the repentant sinner are forgiven (Act 3:19, Act 26:18).
These verses say nothing about former sins. They simply say the blotting out and forgiveness of sins.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Yes crftd they don get it mind you I only got it about 18 months ago, but they wont take things to Christ, teh religious will never except grace it will always be by works because that is what religion is all about slavery and bondage.

In all hIs Love
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
mjrhealth said:
Yes crftd they don get it mind you I only got it about 18 months ago, but they wont take things to Christ, teh religious will never except grace it will always be by works because that is what religion is all about slavery and bondage.

In all hIs Love
Bless you brother. Glad you saw the light. Stick around. I'm getting ready to address an issue that you brought up in another thread, which I was going to respond to, but think this is a much better place to do so. (not tonight, but after Dan Scott responds. I think it was your post; maybe someone else's...sheesh, I can't remember)
 

spockrates

New Member
Apr 13, 2012
34
0
0
mjrhealth said:
Untill one comes to that point in their life where they realis that all teh know is wrong and that all the truth is in Christ, and do teh one thing He asked them to do,

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,
Joh 5:40 and you will not come to Me that you might have life.

But it is as it is written,

1Co_3:3 For you are yet carnal. For in that there is among you envyings and strife and divisions, are you not carnal, and do you not walk according to men?

And so many who claim they are searching for teh truth never find it for it is in Christ,

Rom 8:5 For they who are according to the flesh mind the things of flesh, but they who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Do you really want to grow, than you need to do,

More of Him and less of me

Jesus sent us the Holt Spirit to lead us into all the turth, all teh truth is in Christ not in the bible, many know the bible so few know Christ, many led by teh flesh so few obedient to the leading of teh Holy Spirit, so many put the bible before God as if it is greater than Him, so few put God first, and so they dont grow, for they have bound Him hand and foot and wont let Him do as He pleases.

In all His Love
Yes, Health, don't forget this one:

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

(2 Timothy 3)

But though I'm not coming to a knowledge of what is true, it's not for lack of effort or desire! For I want desperately to be sure of which way to receive eternal life is the way.

Reminds me of something Socrates said:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom and find I cannot trust myself. I think that I ought to stop and ask myself, "What am I saying?" For there is nothing worse than self-deception when the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It is quite terrible!

(Cratylus, book 1)

My hope is that my being aware I might become self-deceived will better protect me from becoming so. For it seems to me that the one more likely to become deceived by oneself or another is the one who is falsely confident deception could never fool him. This is why I withhold belief in an idea until I have convincing evidence to support it.

So I think my attitude is good--I don't want to be duped and am aware that being fooled is always a possibility. I'm longing to become certain of the way to approach Jesus and receive his grace and life. What then must I do Health to know without doubt what the true meaning of saving grace is?

Rex said:
The power of grace

Grace is a Spirit Zech 12:10
Grace is a crown Proverbs 4:9
And Grace is what Jesus delivered Psalm 45:1-6

We could very well say Jesus is grace delivered unto man. He came as a child wearing the crown of grace. Luke 2:40

And here is one the NIV missed, the stone the builders rejected
Zech 4:7 KJV
I'm assuming, then that grace is not merely what God gives, but is in fact what God is! For the Holy Spirit is a spirit, is who Jesus gave to us and is the stone the builders rejected. God himself is grace, these passages seem to say to me. What do they say to you, Rex?
 

ScottAU

New Member
Feb 27, 2013
209
25
0
My comments in blue.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
This is where you err and demonstrate your unbelief. The blood of the lamb covers sin and is eternally on the mercy seat; therefore sin is eternally covered for those who put their faith in it. As long as we abide in faith that the blood has the power to cover any sin (except unbelief) we remain in Christ. If we abide in Christ we bring forth fruit and are not broken off. Sinning breaks the fellowship, but it does not destroy the relationship. If we repent and do the work of GOD (believe into Christ), fellowship is restored; if not, corrective action will be taken just as a loving father seeks to correct any wayward child of his. Those who through unbelief do not abide in Christ are broken off.

Where in the Bible does it make this distinction between "fellowship with God" and a "relationship with God"?

The blood of the lamb is not a cover for ongoing rebellion. Look at what the writer of Hebrews states...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; The law written in the heart and mind.
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Sins forgiven.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. No more offering when sin has been forgiven. Note the connection in the previous two verses of the sins being forgiven and the law written on the heart and mind.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; We enter ito the Holy of Holies via the flesh of Christ (drink His blood and eat His flesh, ie. His ways become our ways)
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. A true heart is an honest heart, no guile. How can one approach God with a true heart still in rebellion??? It is impossible.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, There is no more sacrifice if we sin willfully because where sins are remitted there is no more offering (Heb 10:18). The death of Christ is not a continual cleansing or cover of ongoing rebellion. If there is ongoing rebellion then the conscience is evil and not pure as in Heb 10:22.
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Fear follows willful sin because rebellion brings condemnation. We cannot approach God with a true heart in rebellion thus there can only be a fearful expectation of judgment in this state.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? The previous two verses are a severe warning about sinning against grace. To willfully sin against grace is to tread the blood of Christ underfoot, in other words it is to hold the grace of God in contempt and treat it like a license to be able to sin and be forgiven later on.
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Hebrews 10:29 SPECIFICALLY provides the context that this passage is applicable to those who HAVE BEEN CLEANSED BY THE BLOOD for it says, "hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified." I know many try and twist this passage into a reference to Jews or others who reject Jesus Christ and His sin offering, yet the passage does not make that assertion. The context is clearly about those who "willfully sin after being sanctified by the blood."

Salvation is not forensic, it is a MANIFEST REALITY. The new man IN CHRIST has been made clean within. That man is not to go out and defile himself again by eating of the forbidden fruit in disobedience to God. The blood of Christ IS NOT a cloak for rebellion.

Again what you are asserting is in complete contradiction to this passage for you are asserting that "if we willfully sin after being sanctified by the blood that there IS a sacrifice for this sin and that it is automatically covered." Thus you believe YOU CAN sin and not surely die.




Your faith is in the wrong thing. You believe a methodology will save you. It will not. It can only produce an imagined holiness. Only faith in the blood of the lamb to cover your sins will save you.

You display such a breathtaking ignorance of the full context of scripture. I feel sorry for you. You have a zeal, but it is so misdirected, and you are so blind.
You continually make comments like this but you offer no Biblical basis for them nor do you take to task anything I write.

The Bible says...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Obedience is most definitely a dynamic aspect of salvation. There must be a "working together with God" lest grace is received in vain.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Grace and faith WORK TOGETHER. The word "dynamic" is concerned with energy or forces that produce motion, in other words "activity." ACTIVITY is the opposite of PASSIVITY. Those who teach this "trust in the finished work of Christ APART from doing anything" are preaching PASSIVITY. The Bible teaches ACTIVITY. Man must RESPOND to the leading of God hence we are LED by the Spirit.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Those who are led MUST follow.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

So while it is true that one must have faith in the blood of Christ to purge sin there must be the active dynamic of faith in order to access the blood. Hence we enter into the Holy of Holies in the fashion described in Hebrews 10, which is by repentance and faith, ie. forsaking our own way and submitting ourselves to the will of God.





Dan Scott is only able to argue from the laundry list of cult talking points. He's lost without it. He hasn't internalized the truth because he doesn't know it. Thus a huge laundry list of talking points any time time he discusses any issue, large or small.

My name is Scott, not Dan. I don't know why you persist in calling me Dan when I have told you my name is Scott. Again you make a claim without substance, use the Bible and show me my errors. Refute them if you can. I assert that you cannot because you do not understand nor rightly divide the Scripture.


And this is another ridiculous mistake you make. Your thinking is so muddled you confuse the position of having been ransomed and made a slave of righteousness, with an act of disobedience which demonstrates being a slave (in the mind) to a sin. But this is because you believe (in your heart) that salvation is an act of the will, not GOD's grace. Therefore, you can only conclude that if someone commits a sin, he has to be a slave of sin and has never really repented or believed in Christ; because if he had done so he wouldn't have sinned.

I never said salvation is an act of the will. Quote me anywhere where I said anything close to that? That is an example of how you twist my position into a strawman and then contend against the strawman, I have said that yielding to God is an act of the will. Yielding to God (obedience from the heart) is a necessary condition that must be met for salvation to take place yet it is God that does the saving. We don't raise ourselves up. We don't refresh ourselves, it is God that does the refreshing, yet we have to repent and convert, in other words we have to forsake our rebellion and yield to God.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;



That reasoning is so ridiculous it's pathetic. Your religion is in your mind, not your heart. Subsequently, there is no leeway or grace in your beliefs. I'm starting to get a picture of the type of person Luke 19:20 refers to.

Ridiculous and pathetic? Again you resort to namecalling and mockery instead of providing something of substance in order to demonstrate the error you perceive. There is no leeway for grace in my beliefs? No there is leeway for ongoing rebellion and being saved at the same time in my beliefs. Grace is not a cloak for ongoing rebellion, grace is God drawing us to obedience as well as His willingness to forgive our PAST rebellion.

Everything I teach is in the context of the grace of GOd but I don't turn the grace of God into a license to sin. Those who see grace as a cloak for ongoing rebellion see grace as license even though they probably won't admit that. Paul set such a notion to rest when he wrote...

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Grace has indeed abounded when sin has abounded but grace does not abound so we can CONTINUE in sin. No the sin must cease otherwise one is treating the grace of God with contempt.

I have clearly presented the scriptural basis of the grace of God that brings salvation (Tit 2:11-14) being directly connected to the quickening (being made alive again) (Eph 2:5) which is where God regenerates the spirit of the repentant sinner (Act 3:19) thus bringing them from a state of darkness to light (Act 26:18) and it is via this dynamic the the former sins of the repentant sinner are forgiven (Act 3:19, Act 26:18).

These verses say nothing about former sins. They simply say the blotting out and forgiveness of sins.

Yet the blotting out and forgiveness of sin is CONDITIONAL on repentance and conversion. The Prodigal Son forsook the pig pen (Luk 15) and Nineveh forsook their wickedness (Jon 3:10). God used both as examples of repentance (Luk 15:10, Mat 12:41). While those verses may not SPECIFICALLY say anything about "former sins" these verses do...

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Peter did not say that this blind man was purged of his "future sins." In fact is future sins are forgiven in advance then that would completely negate the necessity of repentance.

I challenge you to show me a single scripture in the Bible which teaches that future sins are forgiven in advance.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hi Scott,

I think this might be a typo in the fourth sentence before your Romans 5 quotation:

No there is leeway for ongoing rebellion and being saved at the same time in my beliefs.
I think you meant 'no leeway'?



Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

This may seem to be a small point, but it matters a huge amount! What you said here, is straight out of the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

The blood of the lamb covers sin and is eternally on the mercy seat; therefore sin is eternally covered for those who put their faith in it.
There is nothing in the New Testament which even vaguely suggests that the blood of Jesus Christ 'covers' our sins, or the sin of Adam.

What is eternal, is the blood of the everlasting covenant, and that the Lamb which John saw in Revelation, was as though it had just been slain. The blood of the Lamb is an ever-present reality, through the Holy Spirit, and it is present to cleanse us continuously. But for this continuous cleansing to commence, there must be a turning from sin - a putting off the body of sin by faith, through the circumcision of the heart by and of Christ.

The enduring nature of the blood on the mercy seat was related to the fact it was sprinkled there only once a year. We are supposed to be living a life that is sprinkled by the blood of the Lamb through the Spirit, continuously. That is what it means to be 'holy' - to be set apart for God's purposes.

1 Peter 1:2 '... through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus prayed in John 17, He spoke about sanctifying Himself. Why would He need to? There could be several answers to that, but at the very least, He was giving His disciples an example, and showing them how it was done. He had already told them they were clean through the word He had spoken to them. John 15:3. That is not just a short sentence. That is an eternal truth which He expected them to understand properly. If the Lord is speaking to us, and we are being washed by His word, we are clean because His word does cleanse us throughly, not just outwardly.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Who said grace was a licence to sin?? Lets take a look at speed cameras.for eg There are people all over the world who have being driving for 20 years or more and never had a fine. Than came speed cameras. In the beginning there was a 10% leeway, allowing for incorrect tire size and old tachos. and things where not to bad (grace). Than some governments got greedy and changes it to 1KmHr some to the number all of a sudden fines went through the roof and many who had never had fines where suddenly getting them. Where they braking the law on purpose. I doubt it but the law has made no allowance for errors. Again the religious cannot except grace, they are too fixated on doing it themselves, and where is the glory for God in that.

In allHis love
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
dragonfly said:
There is nothing in the New Testament which even vaguely suggests that the blood of Jesus Christ 'covers' our sins, or the sin of Adam.

What is eternal, is the blood of the everlasting covenant, and that the Lamb which John saw in Revelation, was as though it had just been slain. The blood of the Lamb is an ever-present reality, through the Holy Spirit, and it is present to cleanse us continuously. But for this continuous cleansing to commence, there must be a turning from sin - a putting off the body of sin by faith, through the circumcision of the heart by and of Christ.

The enduring nature of the blood on the mercy seat was related to the fact it was sprinkled there only once a year. We are supposed to be living a life that is sprinkled by the blood of the Lamb through the Spirit, continuously. That is what it means to be 'holy' - to be set apart for God's purposes.
What in the world do you think the blood of sprinkling refers to? Everything in the old covenant is a shadow of Christ and the new covenant, the reality. The high priest sprinkling blood on the mercy seat on the day of atonement that covered the sins of Israel for one year was just a shadow of our high priest entering the holy place with his own blood to cover our sins forever. It serves the exact same purpose with the exception that it doesn't have to be repeated year after year. It is an eternal offering.

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling [on the mercy seat], that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:24

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ [on the mercy seat]: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year. For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Hebrews 10:1-21

ScottAU said:
My comments in blue.
Ridiculously long post. Disregard.

btw, Dan Scott I know your name is Scott. But you have avoided answering my question for some reason. As soon as you answer my question I will cease. Are you the person (or one of them) who sent out those emails addressed from a person named Dan? Answer the question. What are you hiding from?

dragonfly said:
There is nothing in the New Testament which even vaguely suggests that the blood of Jesus Christ 'covers' our sins, or the sin of Adam.
What do you think the word atonement means? It means to cover. Christ is our atonement. Our cover. Put on the covering of GOD (our lord Jesus Christ) and have your sins blotted out.

H3722 כָּפַר kaphar (kaw-far') v.
1. to cover (specifically with bitumen)
2. (figuratively) to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel