Rex said:
Scotty If you don't understand the simple doctrine of salvation I have no Idea what it is you teach or believe, all I can say is it's another Gospel.
Romans 3:24
Romans 6:23
Romans 10:9-11
So were does it say we will be made perfect or completely sinless. Or I should say how then are we redeemed in your opinion?
Every place I read it says WE should put off the deeds of the flesh, not the new man is free from from the deeds of the flesh.
In every instance it is said WE should put off. not it is completely taken away. Your perfect man scenario is a works of the flesh, a false doctrine that enslaves men back into the bondage of the law.
Gal 3:11
Romans 3:20
Gal 2:16
17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles "Nations" because of you.”
It is not another Gospel to contend for the truth that sinners must FORSAKE their rebellion to God BEFORE God grants forgiveness. Such a thing is not another Gospel nor is it in opposition to grace.
I have clearly presented the scriptural basis of the grace of God that brings salvation (Tit 2:11-14) being directly connected to the quickening (being made alive again) (Eph 2:5) which is where God regenerates the spirit of the repentant sinner (Act 3:19) thus bringing them from a state of darkness to light (Act 26:18) and it is via this dynamic the the former sins of the repentant sinner are forgiven (Act 3:19, Act 26:18).
You alluded to Rom 3:24 the context of which I would like to address...
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
We are justified by grace IN THAT "redemption IS IN Jesus Christ."
The above passage is clearly teaching that justification is via "faith" as opposed to the "deeds of the law" (Rom 3:28) which is something Paul repeats in Rom 4:5 and Gal 5:4-6. Faith is not simply "trusting in something" APART from "doing." This is where modern theology seriously errs. I'll try and explain.
The Pharisees had the "Law of Moses" and they thought that their justification was connected to "keeping the letter" of this law. What they did not understand was that the "Law of Moses" was but a shadow of the "Law of Christ" which is spiritual. If you look at Gal 5:6 Paul explicitly states that "faith works by love" and in Gal 5:14 he states that "love fulfills the law."
If we "love our neighbour from a pure heart" then we will not do that which is evil to them. Thus an individual who loves does not murder, steal, lie or cheat. The actual "outward deeds" of benevolence to one's neighbour IS NOT what justifies the individual for "outward deeds" can be done with insincere motives. Thus it is not the "deeds of the law" which justify a person, rather it is a "faith that works by love" where genuine justification or righteousness is found. This is what Paul is teaching in the his letter to the Galations.
The Church in Galatia were being drawn into "law keeping" as the means of justification APART from a "faith that works by love." Thus they were being deceived into serving the shadow as opposed to the source. Specifically it was the "rite of circumcision" which they were being compelled to keep in order to be righteous. Paul understood that the "rite of circumcision" was connected to this...
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present,
in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Adherrance to OUTWARD ordinances does not purify the soul. Paul further elaborated on this idea to the Corinthians when he wrote...
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
This is what grace is all about. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith because the dynamic of salvation is wrought in yielding to God so that the light of God MANIFEST THROUGH US. Hence...
Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Grace is not some free gift which one simply trusts in. Grace is the power of God we WALK IN whereby we manifest the outward fruit of righteousness due to having our hearts made clean via the implanted word (Joh 15:3-5, Jam 1:21).
Thus...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing
ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The new birth is a result of obeying God from the heart whereby we put off the old man (whereby we served Satan) and we put on the new man (whereby we serve Christ). This is why Paul writes...
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that
ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Genuine faith IS obedience to God. Abraham possessed a faith whereby he was totally convinced that what God said was true (Rom 4:20-22) and thus WALKED in the steps of that faith (Rom 4:12) and it is THIS KIND of faith that God reckons as righteousness (Rom 4:5).
I'll reiterate briefly with the words of Jesus...
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee,
cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Jesus is teaching the Gospel of grace in those words. Righteousness is not in keeping the letter of the law as the Pharisees thought they did, rather it is of circumcision of the heart (Col 2:11) whereby we are empowered by God to walk in the light (Col 2:12-13). Hence it is by the Spirit that we put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8:13).
There is NOTHING FORENSIC about salvation. Salvation is an actual manifest state of abiding in Jesus Christ with a pure heart. This is why there can be no rebellion to God for this state to continue. The false teachers have utterly perverted everything I have written above and they call people like me "false teachers" because I tell people that they have to stop sinning. Yet I compell people to seriously examine their doctrine, am I really preaching error as some on this board claim?
Here is another scripture you alluded to Rex...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Does that contradict anything I teach? NO! God has indeed given us the gift of eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. We MUST ABIDE IN HIM. We either abide in sin as the old man or we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ as new creations. Those are the two roads.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The entire theme of the Bible totally contradicts the present day teaching that "you can sin and not surely die" which is taught via "positional salvation" due to a "legal transaction made on the cross" whereby one becomes IDENTIFIED WITH CHRIST IN POSITION yet it still MANIFESTLY WICKED. This false gospel message it an insidious and very effectual deception which is fooling the multitude of professing Christianity.
The death of Christ was a RESCUE not a SUBSTITUTION. Jesus did not swap places with anyone, There are two major facets to His sacrifice that I can clearly see.
1. Sin offering whereby our past transgression are purged by the blood (Heb 9:14).
2. A death and rebirth which we partake in via repentance and faith (Rom 4:4-7).
Rex, you also brought up this scripture...
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For
with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Which is an allusion to this...
Deu 30:14 But
the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
The false teachers IGNORE the...
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
believeth - pisteuō - G4100
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of
unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
unbelief - apistia - G570
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.
Confessing Christ with the mouth and believing in the heart IS NOT a mere mental exercise. It relates to ABIDING IN THE TRUTH which means you WALK IN IT. The false teachers cherry pick passages like Rom 10:10 and others and create their "Romans Road to Salvation" and deceive people straight to hell with a doctrine which makes an allowance for the ongoing commission of rebellion to God. The Bible is not a menu where we can pick out a few verses and build an entire systematic theology upon those verses whilst ignoring the whole counsel of God.
James clearly connected the profession of Christ with what one does...
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The walk must match the profession.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
The Bible means what it says.
Don't twist it.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which
they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Peter was not giving an idle warning above. The error of the wicked will damn those who buy into it.