Why I Love the Church

Wormwood · May 6, 2013

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” (Revelation 21:1–2, ESV)

The church is the bride of Christ. He loves her and has surrendered himself to rescue her. He has clothed her in white and his fury is displayed in the book of Revelation on those who mistreat her. Paul says to the church in Corinth,

“Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17, ESV)

God destroys those who destroy God's temple. He gets angry when people mess with his bride. One would think that this would give people pause when attacking the Church. Yet, now more than ever, people both on the outside and inside of the Church have taken delight in slapping around the bride of Christ. Don't get me wrong, the Church is full of imperfect and sometimes very difficult people. Its not that we should ever excuse bad behavior. But we should also be very cautious of beating up the bride of Jesus.

In our postmodern era, everyone wants to be their own church. "Let's do away with organized religion" many say with a sneer. People despise all authority and desire for themselves to be their own god. They want no accountability, no correction, no oversight, no conviction and no boundaries. For them, the church is the object of scorn and ridicule. Their ecclesiology is watered-down and resembles nothing more than a casual chat at Starbucks. True love is dismissed as we only seek to gather around people who think and speak just like us. The old are mocked and called out of date. The young are viewed as foolish and only concerned with entertaining themselves. So, we just mock each other and devour the leaders who strive to bring people together. This is not love. It is selfishness and idolatry. It is arrogance and resembles nothing of the call of Paul that says we should be willing to think first of others before ourselves. Instead, we think only of ourselves and contemporary authors are making a killing on books that beat up the bride of Christ and reinforce our own selfishness. We don't care about others, only "my personal walk with Jesus." Yeah, find that phrase in the Bible.

Pastors are caught in the cross-fire. Some try to paint pastors as nothing but the religious elite and treat them as Pharisees. All doctrine is viewed as cold, dry and dead. Never mind Paul's command to Timothy to "watch your life and doctrine closely. If you do you will save both yourself and your hearers." Committing ones life to studying the Scriptures is viewed as a bad thing. Loving God with the mind is now viewed as carnal and elitist. Newsflash: The Pharisees were not chided for their diligence in studying the Scriptures...but their failure to recognize Jesus as the one toward whom the Scriptures pointed. This is not the "same thing" as pastors who preach the blood of Jesus given for your salvation! Somehow the "Spirit" has become a synonym for spontaneity and gut reactions. Each person's "Spirit" is calling them to impose their agenda on their pastor and each "Spirit" is different...but equally harsh and critical. Others view pastors as personal servants. They think, "We pay you to make us feel good." Though they would never actually say this, clearly it is the mentality. Preach sermons that affirm us and make us comfortable. Exalt the USA, honor our military, make sure you talk about our moms on mothers day, don't forget to bring me flowers at the hospital. You didn't call my mom when her wive's brother's sister's uncle died. How dare you!

Now it may sound like this is anything but, "I love the church." But I do. In spite of all her faults, she belongs to Jesus and she alone is the hope of this world. Its time we stop being selfish, forming our own little eclectic groups and joining in with the unbelievers in their harsh attacks on God's people (ministers included). Instead of throwing her under the bus, lets begin to teach and train so people move from selfishness to service. Rather than joining the criticism or nitpicking her faults, why not be a part of building her up? She is beautiful you know. Look around at your local hospitals. Chances are they were formed by the Church. Same thing with your nursing homes that care for the elderly. You local food kitchen is probably run by a church. In fact, most of the really wonderful things happening in the world are happening because of the church. Certainly we still have a long ways to go, and God's grace will see us through. But, Christians, stop being part of the problem and become part of the solution! Its easy to cut down. Its easy to blow things up. Its easy to point out faults. But God has called us to the hard, heart-breaking and humbling work of building people up and bringing people together.

Jesus loves his bride. Its about time we started loving her too.

bytheway · May 6, 2013

Wormwood said:
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” (Revelation 21:1–2, ESV)

The church is the bride of Christ. He loves her and has surrendered himself to rescue her. He has clothed her in white and his fury is displayed in the book of Revelation on those who mistreat her. Paul says to the church in Corinth,

“Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17, ESV)

God destroys those who destroy God's temple. He gets angry when people mess with his bride. One would think that this would give people pause when attacking the Church. Yet, now more than ever, people both on the outside and inside of the Church have taken delight in slapping around the bride of Christ. Don't get me wrong, the Church is full of imperfect and sometimes very difficult people. Its not that we should ever excuse bad behavior. But we should also be very cautious of beating up the bride of Jesus.

In our postmodern era, everyone wants to be their own church. "Let's do away with organized religion" many say with a sneer. People despise all authority and desire for themselves to be their own god. They want no accountability, no correction, no oversight, no conviction and no boundaries. For them, the church is the object of scorn and ridicule. Their ecclesiology is watered-down and resembles nothing more than a casual chat at Starbucks. True love is dismissed as we only seek to gather around people who think and speak just like us. The old are mocked and called out of date. The young are viewed as foolish and only concerned with entertaining themselves. So, we just mock each other and devour the leaders who strive to bring people together. This is not love. It is selfishness and idolatry. It is arrogance and resembles nothing of the call of Paul that says we should be willing to think first of others before ourselves. Instead, we think only of ourselves and contemporary authors are making a killing on books that beat up the bride of Christ and reinforce our own selfishness. We don't care about others, only "my personal walk with Jesus." Yeah, find that phrase in the Bible.

Pastors are caught in the cross-fire. Some try to paint pastors as nothing but the religious elite and treat them as Pharisees. All doctrine is viewed as cold, dry and dead. Never mind Paul's command to Timothy to "watch your life and doctrine closely. If you do you will save both yourself and your hearers." Committing ones life to studying the Scriptures is viewed as a bad thing. Loving God with the mind is now viewed as carnal and elitist. Newsflash: The Pharisees were not chided for their diligence in studying the Scriptures...but their failure to recognize Jesus as the one toward whom the Scriptures pointed. This is not the "same thing" as pastors who preach the blood of Jesus given for your salvation! Somehow the "Spirit" has become a synonym for spontaneity and gut reactions. Each person's "Spirit" is calling them to impose their agenda on their pastor and each "Spirit" is different...but equally harsh and critical. Others view pastors as personal servants. They think, "We pay you to make us feel good." Though they would never actually say this, clearly it is the mentality. Preach sermons that affirm us and make us comfortable. Exalt the USA, honor our military, make sure you talk about our moms on mothers day, don't forget to bring me flowers at the hospital. You didn't call my mom when her wive's brother's sister's uncle died. How dare you!

Now it may sound like this is anything but, "I love the church." But I do. In spite of all her faults, she belongs to Jesus and she alone is the hope of this world. Its time we stop being selfish, forming our own little eclectic groups and joining in with the unbelievers in their harsh attacks on God's people (ministers included). Instead of throwing her under the bus, lets begin to teach and train so people move from selfishness to service. Rather than joining the criticism or nitpicking her faults, why not be a part of building her up? She is beautiful you know. Look around at your local hospitals. Chances are they were formed by the Church. Same thing with your nursing homes that care for the elderly. You local food kitchen is probably run by a church. In fact, most of the really wonderful things happening in the world are happening because of the church. Certainly we still have a long ways to go, and God's grace will see us through. But, Christians, stop being part of the problem and become part of the solution! Its easy to cut down. Its easy to blow things up. Its easy to point out faults. But God has called us to the hard, heart-breaking and humbling work of building people up and bringing people together.

Jesus loves his bride. Its about time we started loving her too.

You like Church because it's easy. Heb. 6:1 through verse 6 talks about leaving,not necessarly from your Church but from the laying again of foundational things, again and again. Take with you what is good and leave what is sand box stuff.

Wormwood · May 6, 2013

I don't think I follow you. Because it's easy? Laying foundational things again and again? Not sure how this applies to what was posted. You will have to explain.

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 6, 2013

Wormwood said:
I don't think I follow you. Because it's easy? Laying foundational things again and again? Not sure how this applies to what was posted. You will have to explain.

What he means (I think) is that most pastors/religious hirelings (at least the ones I've had experience with), through their man-made methodologies, prevent the holy spirit from actually having free reign amongst the congregation, and keep repeating over and over and over the same basic stuff that's safe and won't get them in trouble with the tithe-paying congregants.

btw, Correct me if I'm wrong bytheway.

Justin Mangonel · May 6, 2013

Dear W,

I believe in organized religion very much. It is just that very few let the Holy Spirit organize it. Therefore, what we mainly have is religion organized mans way.

Blessings,

Justin

Wormwood · May 6, 2013

So if its your way it's the Spirits way...got it. You've made it abundantly clear in our conversations that your words are Gods and others plans and efforts are all carnal and man made. Crystal clear.

Justin Mangonel · May 7, 2013

Dear W,

I think it is best to allow God to run His church through the Holy Spirit. That is how the first century church started and I believe in the unity of the Spirit. It is important to submit to the Holy Spirit. If each of us do that then we will all come into agreement.

I am fallible just like you or anyone else. No one has the corner on truth for we are all still learning as God reveals Himself to us. I would never say my words are God's words for that would be highly presumptuous and very arrogant. The called out ones...or what is termed "the church" are those who are led by God's Spirit into all truth. The true church...and not just those who say they are christian but are not..are those who allow God to organize them according to His will. God will do this through leaders if given the opportunity. However, if the keepers of the vineyard will no longer allow Him to come to it freely and do with it as He wills they must be removed and the vineyard given to those who will tend it with a servants heart.

Like I said, organized religion through the Holy Spirit is a wonderful thing...we see that in the book of Acts and in the church of Philadelphia. Organized religion as described in the church of Laodicia is quite a different matter. One is organized by love and one is organized by greed.

Blessings,

Justin

HeRoseFromTheDead · May 7, 2013

Wormwood said:
So if its your way it's the Spirits way...got it. You've made it abundantly clear in our conversations that your words are Gods and others plans and efforts are all carnal and man made. Crystal clear.

No if it's the spirit's way, it's the way spirit-led people choose to follow. You are making it abundantly clear that you don't know what it means to be led by the spirit. And that's all that really matters. All of your well-intentioned plans and works that are not led by the spirit will come to nothing.

Justin Mangonel said:
The true church...and not just those who say they are christian but are not..are those who allow God to organize them according to His will. God will do this through leaders if given the opportunity. However, if the keepers of the vineyard will no longer allow Him to come to it freely and do with it as He wills they must be removed and the vineyard given to those who will tend it with a servants heart.

And in them these words are fulfilled:

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees—hypocrites!—because you shut the kingdom of heaven before people! For you do not enter, nor permit those wanting to go in to enter. Matthew 23:13

7angels · May 7, 2013

i read wormwood's post and everything he stated with the exception of these following sentences are scripturally correct.

Somehow the "Spirit" has become a synonym for spontaneity and gut reactions. Each person's "Spirit" is calling them to impose their agenda on their pastor and each "Spirit" is different...but equally harsh and critical.

the above statement requires clarification before i can agree or disagree with it. but wormwood states that we need to learn to have commpassion and loves others, disciple others, quit arguing among ourselves, and we need to be held responsible for our actions. the only thing i don't see is that we are to carry out the Great Commission.

if you wish i can post scriptures to prove that the main ideas in what he says are scriptural. and if what he says is scriptural then it is according to God's Holy Spirit because God never changes even a bit.

God bless

Wormwood · May 7, 2013

7angels,

Thanks for the request for clarification. My point is that many people are using the phrase "Spirit-led" as a means to undercut local church leadership or justify a critical attitude toward others. Though I am not in a charismatic circle, I am closely connected with those who are or have been. It seems everyone wants to declare themselves to be an apostle or prophet today and feel like this self-established office mandates they be critical of leaders. Also, I have a number of theological degrees. I don't brag about that or think it makes me any better than anyone else. Yet often I find people get intimidated by such things and therefore attack things they do not understand. Seminaries are ridiculed as being cemeteries. People say, "You have a piece of paper, but I have the Spirit." or they argue that "I don't need any fancy degree to be a follower of Christ."

My problem is two-fold. First, no pastor I know is using their degree as a means of trying to show superiority toward others. This is generally something assumed by those who are insecure in their own walk and not imposed by the pastor's education.

Second, since when is committing one's life to the study of Scripture a bad thing? I went to Bible college and then multiple seminaries after that, not because I wanted to be a church authority or stand on a stage, but because I wanted to know the Word of God. In fact, initially I wanted to be anything but a pastor or missionary. I wanted to be a lawyer or doctor. It was my desire to know the Word of God that put me in seminary and seminary was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Seminary professors are some of the most humble, godly, and loving people I have ever met. They are people of deep prayer and incredible love and generosity that helped me to change by the grace of God and power of his Spirit. They taught me to memorize Scripture, pray passionately, and love God's word to the point of studying every detail of it...from historical contexts to the original languages. For over a decade I have been blessed to be encouraged, taught and mentored by some of the most loving and godly people in the world. So when people (and this is very often the case) see you have been to seminary and immediately attack it as unspiritual or meaningless...its very sad.

It seems we have come to a place in history where people are not concerned with the inspired authors intent in Scripture, but are rather focused on their gut feelings. I hear people with some of the most radically off-base interpretations of Scripture claim that the "Spirit told them" or that they are being Spirit-led. It's amazing to me how many self-proclaimed "Spirit-led" people disagree with one another on what Scripture means. However, most all seem to agree that spending years of your life studying Scripture and being mentored by godly people is carnal and nothing but a meaningless piece of paper. I find it very sad....and the church needs to be helped beyond this very negative effect of postmodern pride.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
No if it's the spirit's way, it's the way spirit-led people choose to follow. You are making it abundantly clear that you don't know what it means to be led by the spirit. And that's all that really matters. All of your well-intentioned plans and works that are not led by the spirit will come to nothing.

Ok, that makes more sense. It's not that your words are Gods, but that whatever you do displays God because you are Spirit-led.

Has it ever occurred to you that those you are criticizing may actually be the ones led by the Spirit and YOU are the one resisting the Spirit's leading? This is the problem with all the subjective Spirit-led talk. If there is a sin you have a problem with, point it out and deal with it in grace. But if it is a model of leadership, style of worship, or manner of meeting together that you feel is too confining..then it may just be a matter of taste. The Spirit would have us be gracious and humble about such matters...not question the other person's walk with God. What I have very diligently tried to share with you in our other discussion is that you and your friends Scripture quotes are out of context and your attitudes of harsh criticism toward church leaders to be the furthest thing from the Spirit. The Spirit inspired the Scriptures and does not contradict Himself. I have seen you guys take Scripture way out of context, so something does not fit. And the Spirit is full of peace, patience, selflessness, gentleness, kindness, joy, self-control, faithfulness and love. I do not find these attributes in your writing, but I do see a lot of dissention, envy, discord, jealousy, and criticism. These are not fruits of the Spirit....quite the opposite. So you can say you are led of the Spirit all you want, but I think Scripture makes it clear that people can make all the grand claims they want, but we are to watch for the fruit.

Justin Mangonel · May 7, 2013

Dear W,

You dismiss people who are critical of the way things are done in church as mere gut reactions. Could it be that the Spirit is not happy with the way things are going and is telling the leadership through the people?

Cemeteries, as you call them, are apply named for they simply turn out people who are tightly control through whatever flavor of doctrine their school mandates. And as you say it certainly helps if you don't have a fancy degree and want to follow Christ for it frees you up to actually do so. Studying scripture in a formal setting is problematic because it tends to focus people on the intellectual side of things rather than the Spirit. They become so strongly entrenched in certain dogmas that they cannot see otherwise even if the Holy Spirit comes to them. What a lot of people don't know about seminaries, an why they are sometimes refereed to as cemeteries, is that many of the students backslide and loose their faith during training. Many times because of the toll legalism takes on them. I would hardly ever recommend that someone who is moving in God go to one. Yet those who survive them still have a blind faith in them.

Perhaps it is a matter of not being able to see the forest for the trees. Having degrees and being a minister seems to automatically make people assume that those who do not have the paper or office are somehow not as qualified to hear from God. Those who have formal training reason that such formal training puts them in a better place to lead sheep but I would argue that just the opposite is true. In seminaries you are not allowed to stray very far from the official doctrinal order of things and if you do you are disciplined and if you persist you are expelled. This might not be a problem if the seminary had all their doctrines straight but unfortunately that is not the case. Therefore, those who study are forced to tow the line or else. This type of attitude is embedded in many of their graduates and forms a kind of "we know best" world view to persists into the ministry. Order is place above everything else and the order of the day is the one that was taught at seminary.

Is the system good? That is one of the central questions that must be answered when looking at formal biblical studies. If you tow the line and you generally fit then you become part of that system. However, if you do not tow the line and do not fit in then the system jettisons you. That is how it is set up. Within the systems doctrinal box people can be as you say...good and decent believers. However, what happens if God does not want to be in that particular box? The truth is that if you do not acquiesce to powers that be in any particular religious system, even if it because of divine revelation, they have ways to deal with you. Thankfully their are laws that prohibit burning at the stake these day but that same spirit that tortured believers in the dark ages still exists in the religious establishment today.

If you talk to a Jesuit priest they will tell you that their particular way of looking at things is good and right before God. Yes, there are a few minor problems but they believe in the system. All of their doctrines are correct and attested to by generations of learned men who were very pious. Those who are part of that system could go on at length of all the wonderful and nurturing people they have met along the way. However, the salient point is that most of what they believe is simply unscriptural and they know it not. If someone comes to them and contests their doctrine and the system that promotes they may say, in a very pious way, "who do they think they are to say such things?" They have the weight of centuries of scholarship behind them and why would God tell someone who is unlearned differently?

I do not think it is good to reduce everyone who disagrees with you to just having "gut feelings." The Holy Spirit is more than that and when He speaks it is not just a "feeling" but a "person" who is communicating with you. Perhaps it is incomprehensible to you that God could disagree with the religious system you serve but nevertheless that may be exactly what is happening. The pharisees could not see it, the Jesuits certainly do not see it, and perhaps others may not see it either.

Is following the Holy Spirit anarchy? Some people thought so on the day of Pentecost yet what they witnesses was the perfect order of God. I don't know where people get this notion that if you actually come in contact with the creator of the Heavens and Earth that it will be a stoical experience. It seems the more school people have the more they despise emotion. Jesus did not despise emotion when the harlot anointed his feet. He did not despise emotion when the father pleaded "help my unbelief." Reducing interaction with the Holy Spirit to a gut feeling make you sound like you dismiss such experiences as inferior.

John the Baptist and Jesus leveled some pretty harsh criticism toward the religious leaders of their day. Do you think that many of those leaders agreed with their assessment? Do you think they understood their scriptural reasons for doing so? It took a personal revelation of Jesus to change Paul's perspective on Jesus because everything He had been taught said that Christ and His followers were outside the established and God ordained religious order.

You wish to defend ministers and the established religious order as something good and decent before God. I say that those who are in such orders are deceived into thinking that they are God's chosen. I believe that such religious orders hinder God's people from maturing into the fulness and stature of Christ because they will not allow the Holy Spirit to control His own.

In conclusion, the religious system of this world is heading in the wrong direction and is becoming a prison to God's people. Those who count themselves as learned simply do not understand this because their doctrine and their love of the system blinds them. People, who are not formally taught, constantly tell them otherwise but they dismiss them because the are unlearned men and women. They want to charge them straightly to shut up but they cannot because of the fire in their bones. The sin of Pharaoh was not that he was Pharaoh but that he hardened his heart when God came for His people and would not let them go. The religious leadership of the normative church is doing much the same thing in our generation. God is coming to His people and wishing to lead them to a place where they can worship Him in Spirit and in Truth yet those who have the rule over them forbid it. Rather than allow God to control His sheep they seek to remain in control. We should not pity such people any more than we pity Pharaoh. These people claim to be for God but are not. The hardness of their hearts is what is bringing their destruction and not those whom they refuse to release.

Blessings,

Justin

domenic · May 7, 2013

To those who love their Church...you better step back and look how they stand up. All leaders claim they are the true church.

Wormwood · May 7, 2013

Justin Mangonel said:
Dear W,

You dismiss people who are critical of the way things are done in church as mere gut reactions. Could it be that the Spirit is not happy with the way things are going and is telling the leadership through the people?

Could be. Could be that the Spirit is not happy. Could be that you are not happy. Could be that the Spirit is very happy. Could be that the Spirit is happy with some and not others. Could be that your criticisms are because you woke up on the wrong side of the bed and have indigestion. Could be a lot of things. I don't think this is how we discern the Spirits leading, friend.

Cemeteries, as you call them, are apply named for they simply turn out people who are tightly control through whatever flavor of doctrine their school mandates. Not true. Have you ever been to seminary? Obviously not. People from all theological backgrounds are mixed among seminaries..and often defend their own convictions both before, during and after their education is complete. And as you say it certainly helps if you don't have a fancy degree and want to follow Christ for it frees you up to actually do so. Actually I was saying the opposite. Studying scripture in a formal setting is problematic because it tends to focus people on the intellectual side of things rather than the Spirit. So much for loving the Lord with all your mind, or being "transformed by the renewing of your mind." They become so strongly entrenched in certain dogmas that they cannot see otherwise even if the Holy Spirit comes to them. More accusations of people and professors you have never met. Sigh. What a lot of people don't know about seminaries, an why they are sometimes refereed to as cemeteries, is that many of the students backslide and loose their faith during training. Where do you get your information? I have never heard of someone losing faith because of seminaries. Quite the opposite. Most pastors I know were on the verge of quitting church because of the pettiness of Christians they serve and find encouragement, support and direction in the seminary classroom. Many times because of the toll legalism takes on them. What are you talking about? I have never had one seminary class that was legalistic. I would hardly ever recommend that someone who is moving in God go to one. Yet those who survive them still have a blind faith in them. Clearly you did not survive one...or attend one for that matter.

Perhaps it is a matter of not being able to see the forest for the trees. Having degrees and being a minister seems to automatically make people assume that those who do not have the paper or office are somehow not as qualified to hear from God. No, but degrees generally make those who are insecure in their own walks defensive and critical. Those who have formal training reason that such formal training puts them in a better place to lead sheep but I would argue that just the opposite is true. In seminaries you are not allowed to stray very far from the official doctrinal order of things and if you do you are disciplined and if you persist you are expelled. What are you talking about? I debate with my professors all the time and hold to very different doctrines. They actually encourage this so students can be more understanding and gracious with others....unlike you who likes to presume and judge without any knowledge whatsoever. This might not be a problem if the seminary had all their doctrines straight but unfortunately that is not the case. Therefore, those who study are forced to tow the line or else. This type of attitude is embedded in many of their graduates and forms a kind of "we know best" world view to persists into the ministry. yeah, you don't display a "we know best" attitude at all. Sigh. Order is place above everything else and the order of the day is the one that was taught at seminary. Actually most classes focus on things like: studying books of the Bible, counseling, worldviews, church history, Greek, Hebrew and the like. I have been to four such institutions and was never taught about this "order" you speak of.

Is the system good? That is one of the central questions that must be answered when looking at formal biblical studies. If you tow the line and you generally fit then you become part of that system. However, if you do not tow the line and do not fit in then the system jettisons you. That is how it is set up. Within the systems doctrinal box people can be as you say...good and decent believers. However, what happens if God does not want to be in that particular box? The truth is that if you do not acquiesce to powers that be in any particular religious system, even if it because of divine revelation, they have ways to deal with you. Thankfully their are laws that prohibit burning at the stake these day but that same spirit that tortured believers in the dark ages still exists in the religious establishment today. Speaking of torture...

If you talk to a Jesuit priest they will tell you that their particular way of looking at things is good and right before God. I am talking about seminarians, not monks or priests. Yes, there are a few minor problems but they believe in the system. All of their doctrines are correct and attested to by generations of learned men who were very pious. Those who are part of that system could go on at length of all the wonderful and nurturing people they have met along the way. However, the salient point is that most of what they believe is simply unscriptural and they know it not. If someone comes to them and contests their doctrine and the system that promotes they may say, in a very pious way, "who do they think they are to say such things?" They have the weight of centuries of scholarship behind them and why would God tell someone who is unlearned differently? Lets stay on the topic of seminary. If you are comparing seminary to being a Catholic priest or joining a monastery then I'd say it betrays your lack of knowledge of any of the three.

I do not think it is good to reduce everyone who disagrees with you to just having "gut feelings." The Holy Spirit is more than that and when He speaks it is not just a "feeling" but a "person" who is communicating with you. Perhaps it is incomprehensible to you that God could disagree with the religious system you serve but nevertheless that may be exactly what is happening. The pharisees could not see it, the Jesuits certainly do not see it, and perhaps others may not see it either. Well when you start providing me with something more than your own personal declarations that you are an Apostle or that the Spirit is speaking through you, I will get past the "gut feelings." I've seen what you do to Scripture so I understand why you do not quote it or give examples of all these grievances you are claiming. But until you start citing more than your own personal opinion, I will leave you, David Koresh, the Westboro Baptists and others fight about who is the more Spirit led.

Is following the Holy Spirit anarchy? Some people thought so on the day of Pentecost yet what they witnesses was the perfect order of God. I don't know where people get this notion that if you actually come in contact with the creator of the Heavens and Earth that it will be a stoical experience. It seems the more school people have the more they despise emotion. What are you talking about? SEMINARY, NOT MONASTARY. No one is talking about a somber cutting off from society. Obviously you have no clue what you are saying. Jesus did not despise emotion when the harlot anointed his feet. He did not despise emotion when the father pleaded "help my unbelief." Reducing interaction with the Holy Spirit to a gut feeling make you sound like you dismiss such experiences as inferior. No, I just don't let my experiences override the Word of God. So when Jesus says, "Don't judge or you will be judged." I don't go out speaking evil about people I don't know and claiming they don't have the Spirit because it feels right (unless you want to tell me that you actually hear the Spirits voice talking to you...otherwise..."gut feeling" seems to fit).

John the Baptist and Jesus leveled some pretty harsh criticism toward the religious leaders of their day. Do you think that many of those leaders agreed with their assessment? Do you think they understood their scriptural reasons for doing so? It took a personal revelation of Jesus to change Paul's perspective on Jesus because everything He had been taught said that Christ and His followers were outside the established and God ordained religious order. Yes, seeing as how you view yourself to be an Apostle I can see how you feel the right to do such a thing. But, as I said before, they were attacking those who refused to receive Christ, not those who preach the cross and call on Jesus every day. Moreover, if you have a specific problem (like Jesus, Paul, John, etc.) then say it. Your vague attacks that people are not spiritual is nothing but you puffing your own self up. Clearly the attacks you do have (such as those against seminaries) are entirely baseless and show you have never been to one or have the foggiest idea about what you are criticizing. I don't think Jesus, John and Paul approached their rebukes this way.

You wish to defend ministers and the established religious order as something good and decent before God. I say that those who are in such orders are deceived into thinking that they are God's chosen. I believe that such religious orders hinder God's people from maturing into the fulness and stature of Christ because they will not allow the Holy Spirit to control His own. And how do they prevent the Holy Spirit? By preaching Jesus and the Word of God each week? By counseling struggling couples to stay together and love each other? By comforting the sick and mourning? You'll have to help me here...

In conclusion, the religious system of this world is heading in the wrong direction and is becoming a prison to God's people. Im surprised you even call them God's people. Surely people affiliated with something so heinous that they couldn't possibly know God! Those who count themselves as learned simply do not understand this because their doctrine and their love of the system blinds them. People, who are not formally taught, constantly tell them otherwise but they dismiss them because the are unlearned men and women. Can you provide me with an audio clip of a pastor saying this in a sermon since its so regular? They want to charge them straightly to shut up but they cannot because of the fire in their bones. yeah, give me a clip of this too. The sin of Pharaoh was not that he was Pharaoh but that he hardened his heart when God came for His people and would not let them go. The religious leadership of the normative church is doing much the same thing in our generation. God is coming to His people and wishing to lead them to a place where they can worship Him in Spirit and in Truth yet those who have the rule over them forbid it. Rather than allow God to control His sheep they seek to remain in control. We should not pity such people any more than we pity Pharaoh. These people claim to be for God but are not. The hardness of their hearts is what is bringing their destruction and not those whom they refuse to release.

Blessings, Nothing like a kiss after being attacked and slandered. Appreciate that.

Justin

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