For those who believe that Babylon is America…

Eric E Stahl · Jun 7, 2013

[SIZE=14pt]2 Thessalonians 2:6-12[/SIZE]
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God will cause all the people that heard the truth of the gospel and reject Jesus to believe the lie of antichrist. Therefore the antichrist will be followed by the formerly Christian nations who have heard the gospel! It is the western powers that follow the antichrist and it is the apostate Christian church that is Mystery Babylon who rides and directs the western kings.

veteran · Jun 8, 2013

Actually, all those who believed the Pre-trib Rapture lie will be subject to believing on the coming Antichrist in place of our Lord Jesus Christ. The reason is simple, it's because our Lord Jesus said His coming is going to be AFTER... the "great tribulation" He taught of in Matthew 24. This is why those especially treat the Revelation Babylon harlot as something else other than what the last verse of Revelation 17 says it is...

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

Eric E Stahl · Jun 8, 2013

veteran said:
Actually, all those who believed the Pre-trib Rapture lie will be subject to believing on the coming Antichrist in place of our Lord Jesus Christ. The reason is simple, it's because our Lord Jesus said His coming is going to be AFTER... the "great tribulation" He taught of in Matthew 24. This is why those especially treat the Revelation Babylon harlot as something else other than what the last verse of Revelation 17 says it is...

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

The pre tribulation rapture happens a the appearing of Jesus in the air spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Matthew 24:29-31 happens at the middle of the tribulation when there is war in heaven and the devil is cast down to the earth Revelation 12:7-14

Zechariah 14:1-5a describes the Lord coming to make a way for Israel to flee from the antichrist and his armies of the world.

Zechariah 14:5b looks forward to Armageddon when we come with Jesus and defeat the armies of antichrist.

veteran · Jun 8, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
The pre tribulation rapture happens a the appearing of Jesus in the air spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Matthew 24:29-31 happens at the middle of the tribulation when there is war in heaven and the devil is cast down to the earth Revelation 12:7-14

Zechariah 14:1-5a describes the Lord coming to make a way for Israel to flee from the antichrist and his armies of the world.

Zechariah 14:5b looks forward to Armageddon when we come with Jesus and defeat the armies of antichrist.

You've got a lot more Bible study to do, firstly, going back and re-reading all the Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture school has twisted in order to insert their doctrines of men instead.

Christ's Own Words...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

What God's Holy Writ actually... teaches SHOULD be enough to drive a wedge between your false Pre-trib Rapture preachers, and make you want to get into God's Word line upon line, and chapter by chapter for yourself. If what God said in His Word is not good enough for you, then you will continue to heed those doctrines of men instead and thus deserve to be deceived.

John S · Jun 8, 2013

Brothertom - No we won't. It's really sad to see what goes through your mind. Were you taught that in Church? I pity that Church.

Veteran - It's really nice to see that someone else agrees with me that the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine is a lie.

Eric E Stahl · Jun 8, 2013

veteran said:
You've got a lot more Bible study to do, firstly, going back and re-reading all the Scripture that the Pre-trib Rapture school has twisted in order to insert their doctrines of men instead.

Christ's Own Words...
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

What God's Holy Writ actually... teaches SHOULD be enough to drive a wedge between your false Pre-trib Rapture preachers, and make you want to get into God's Word line upon line, and chapter by chapter for yourself. If what God said in His Word is not good enough for you, then you will continue to heed those doctrines of men instead and thus deserve to be deceived.

The darkening of the sun and moon happen at about the middle of the tribulation when Israel must flee.

As Night at Noon Day

God will send a permanent solar eclipse before Armageddon to judge the antichrist kingdom.

Revelation 16:10-11
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Isaiah 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

(((Jesus the Lamb will sit on the throne in the kingdom)))
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones((Satan)) that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Habakkuk 3:11-13
11The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

(((Armageddon)))
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

Joel 3:14-16
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Amos 8:9
7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Job 38:13-15
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

Habakkuk 3:11-13
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went(from view), and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people(Israel), even for salvation with thine anointed(Saints); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.(To Armageddon)

Isaiah 60:1-2
[SIZE=10pt]1[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. [/SIZE]

tgwprophet · Jun 8, 2013

Arnie and Guy - I agree with your ideals on Babylon. I have had the same considerations.

By the way... and I am unsure why so many make this mistake... Revelation 8 NEVER claims 1/3 of the people on earth are to die. I have heard people try to deny the rapture and other denials because they claim 1/3 of the people of the earth are to die at a given time in Tribulations - but that is just not so. Actually nearly everyone or everyone will die - yes - just not at any given time in Revelation or Tribulation. IF it did... PEACE would breakout as people would be scrambling to get all the free stuff - including LAND.

Axehead · Jun 8, 2013

John S said:
Brothertom - No we won't. It's really sad to see what goes through your mind. Were you taught that in Church? I pity that Church.

Veteran - It's really nice to see that someone else agrees with me that the Pre-Trib Rapture Doctrine is a lie.

Of course it is a lie. It cannot even remotely be supported by Scripture without taking great license.

veteran · Jun 10, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
The darkening of the sun and moon happen at about the middle of the tribulation when Israel must flee.

As Night at Noon Day

God will send a permanent solar eclipse before Armageddon to judge the antichrist kingdom.

Revelation 16:10-11
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Isaiah 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

(((Jesus the Lamb will sit on the throne in the kingdom)))
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones((Satan)) that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Habakkuk 3:11-13
11The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

(((Armageddon)))
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

Joel 3:14-16
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Amos 8:9
7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Job 38:13-15
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

Habakkuk 3:11-13
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went(from view), and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people(Israel), even for salvation with thine anointed(Saints); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.(To Armageddon)

Isaiah 60:1-2
[SIZE=10pt]1[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. [/SIZE]

The majority of those Scripture verses are about the day of Christ's second coming on the Day of The LORD. That also is the time of the gathering of His Church, both from Heaven and from earth. It is the time of God's consuming fire (2 Pet.3:10) when the elements of man's works will be burned off this earth.

Obviously then, that could not happen in the middle of the great tribulation period, because the mid point is only the start of the false messiah's reign, and the latter half of Daniel's final "one week" is the actual "great tribulation" period that our Lord Jesus was talking about in His Olivet Discourse.

So like I said, you need more Bible study.

Eric E Stahl · Jun 14, 2013

veteran said:
The majority of those Scripture verses are about the day of Christ's second coming on the Day of The LORD. That also is the time of the gathering of His Church, both from Heaven and from earth. It is the time of God's consuming fire (2 Pet.3:10) when the elements of man's works will be burned off this earth.

Obviously then, that could not happen in the middle of the great tribulation period, because the mid point is only the start of the false messiah's reign, and the latter half of Daniel's final "one week" is the actual "great tribulation" period that our Lord Jesus was talking about in His Olivet Discourse.

So like I said, you need more Bible study.

veteran,

The burning at the time of 2 Peter 3:10-14 will take place at the time of the sixth seal judgment when the heavens roll up as a schroll.

Fire in the Sky

Jeremiah 25:15-17,
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

[SIZE=16pt] (((God cause man to fight man by nuclear war)))[/SIZE]
31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:10[/SIZE]–15 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 6:12[/SIZE]–14 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 34:1[/SIZE]–8 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Another Old Testament prophet, Isaiah, also foresaw the nuclear war and he prophesied that the heavens will burn and roll up as a scroll. Apparently, all of the airplanes and nuclear missiles will fall from the sky during the war when the atmosphere burns. This judgment will be on all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 51:5[/SIZE]–11 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 25:1[/SIZE]–7 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In Isaiah 30:25[/SIZE]–26, it says that the sun will become seven times stronger in the day of great slaughter. The day of great slaughter happens when the nuclear war takes place and the ozone layer is burned up as a scroll. Malachi 4:1 says that the earth will burn as an oven. In looking to the encyclopedia to see what parts of the atmosphere can burn, you will discover that the ozone is a triple oxygen molecule.
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone layer and the hydrogen layer are next to each other in the atmosphere above the earth. The chemical reaction when they burn is as follows:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heat + oxygen + hydrogen = H2O (water) + greater heat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone and hydrogen layers will be set on fire over Israel by an atomic blast, and then they will burn like the Hindenburg blimp. When the ozone and hydrogen burn, it will form hot water vapor that will condense into water droplets that will then become rain, which will form great hailstones that will fall to the earth along with torrential rain. When the atmosphere burns, the heavens will roll up as a scroll all the way around the earth, over every nation.[/SIZE]

veteran · Jun 15, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
veteran,

The burning at the time of 2 Peter 3:10-14 will take place at the time of the sixth seal judgment when the heavens roll up as a schroll.

The word "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10 is NOT... about material matter, like minerals, rocks, trees, etc. It is a Greek word that means 'an orderly arrangement', like an established order. I sometimes use the idea 'earth age', because that's the subject Peter was talking about there in 2 Pet.3.

God's consuming fire is not going to destroy this earth, it's going to destroy man's works... off this earth. It's about the rudiments of man's order being burned off this earth. Essentially, it means the end of this flesh world time and the start of the world to come under Christ Jesus, the revealing of our spiriutal bodies without the need of flesh.

That's why... it is impossible for that "day of the Lord" event to occur at anytime before or during the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught. It's also why it's impossible for the Antichrist to still be in power on earth after that "day of the Lord" occurs.

You're just NOT thinking and heeding The Scriptures, but have defaulted to the doctrines of men instead.

We don't care what the Pre-Trib Rapture preachers have to say. They don't impress those of us who can read God's Holy Writ for ourselves with The Holy Spirit guiding us. We don't look up to them and their man-made doctrines.

It's become obvious by now that you've come here not to speak your OWN mind and your OWN understanding, but instead to speak the doctrines of those men you have chosen to heed instead of God in His Word.

Eric E Stahl · Jun 15, 2013

veteran said:
The word "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10 is NOT... about material matter, like minerals, rocks, trees, etc. It is a Greek word that means 'an orderly arrangement', like an established order. I sometimes use the idea 'earth age', because that's the subject Peter was talking about there in 2 Pet.3.

God's consuming fire is not going to destroy this earth, it's going to destroy man's works... off this earth. It's about the rudiments of man's order being burned off this earth. Essentially, it means the end of this flesh world time and the start of the world to come under Christ Jesus, the revealing of our spiriutal bodies without the need of flesh.

That's why... it is impossible for that "day of the Lord" event to occur at anytime before or during the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught. It's also why it's impossible for the Antichrist to still be in power on earth after that "day of the Lord" occurs.

You're just NOT thinking and heeding The Scriptures, but have defaulted to the doctrines of men instead.

We don't care what the Pre-Trib Rapture preachers have to say. They don't impress those of us who can read God's Holy Writ for ourselves with The Holy Spirit guiding us. We don't look up to them and their man-made doctrines.

It's become obvious by now that you've come here not to speak your OWN mind and your OWN understanding, but instead to speak the doctrines of those men you have chosen to heed instead of God in His Word.

Your words are funny to me because I have never study mens books or gone to bible school. I have read only the bible for years. If I teach what the pre trib teachers teach, it is because we have studied the same bible.

veteran · Jun 16, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
Your words are funny to me because I have never study mens books or gone to bible school. I have read only the bible for years. If I teach what the pre trib teachers teach, it is because we have studied the same bible.

That is a LIE, because there is NO Biblical evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture written anywhere... in The Word of God.

You GOT that false idea from men's doctrines, not from our Heavenly Father in His Word; He knows it, and I know it, and you will suffer for telling that LIE.

iamlamad · Jun 18, 2013

veteran said:
That is a LIE, because there is NO Biblical evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture written anywhere... in The Word of God.

You GOT that false idea from men's doctrines, not from our Heavenly Father in His Word; He knows it, and I know it, and you will suffer for telling that LIE.

So you call a fellow believer a liar because his doctrine does not fit yours? Two things are sure: First, one or the other of you is teaching false doctrine - for both cannot be right. Second:

Luke 9:55

55 But He turned and rebuked them,and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

"That is a LIE, because there is NO Biblical evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture written anywhere... in The Word of God."

You are simply mistaken in your theories - for that is all they are. Your preconceived glasses have prevented you from seeing truth. May I suggest you diligently meditate on Rev. 7 and the great crowd in heaven, and ask the Holy Spirit for the truth? Of course, you must let go of all false doctrines when you do this, for God will allow anyone to believe anything they choose.
Then study and mediate on 1 thes. chapters 4 & 5. God's word is very clear to those who approach it with no preconceived glasses. Paul writes plainly that the rapture he writes about comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. John clinches the nail under the board, so to speak, by showing us the raptured church in heaven before he even begins the 70th week and Day of the Lord.. Perhaps then, you have created some other rapture.

it is OK to be dogmatic - Paul was so sure of His revelations he said anyone teaching a different gospel should be cursed. When one gets true revelation knowledge from God, it is like that. You know for SURE. But to be dogmatic on a false theory is very bad. God will certainly hold you responsible.

Lamad

Trumpeter · Jun 19, 2013

iamlamad said:
So you call a fellow believer a liar because his doctrine does not fit yours? Two things are sure: First, one or the other of you is teaching false doctrine - for both cannot be right. Second:

Luke 9:55
55 But He turned and rebuked them,and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

"That is a LIE, because there is NO Biblical evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture written anywhere... in The Word of God."

You are simply mistaken in your theories - for that is all they are. Your preconceived glasses have prevented you from seeing truth. May I suggest you diligently meditate on Rev. 7 and the great crowd in heaven, and ask the Holy Spirit for the truth? Of course, you must let go of all false doctrines when you do this, for God will allow anyone to believe anything they choose.
Then study and mediate on 1 thes. chapters 4 & 5. God's word is very clear to those who approach it with no preconceived glasses. Paul writes plainly that the rapture he writes about comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. John clinches the nail under the board, so to speak, by showing us the raptured church in heaven before he even begins the 70th week and Day of the Lord.. Perhaps then, you have created some other rapture.

it is OK to be dogmatic - Paul was so sure of His revelations he said anyone teaching a different gospel should be cursed. When one gets true revelation knowledge from God, it is like that. You know for SURE. But to be dogmatic on a false theory is very bad. God will certainly hold you responsible.

Lamad

Amen Lamad, God Bless.

veteran · Jun 20, 2013

iamlamad said:
So you call a fellow believer a liar because his doctrine does not fit yours? Two things are sure: First, one or the other of you is teaching false doctrine - for both cannot be right. Second:

Luke 9:55
55 But He turned and rebuked them,and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.

"That is a LIE, because there is NO Biblical evidence for a Pre-Trib Rapture written anywhere... in The Word of God."

You are simply mistaken in your theories - for that is all they are. Your preconceived glasses have prevented you from seeing truth. May I suggest you diligently meditate on Rev. 7 and the great crowd in heaven, and ask the Holy Spirit for the truth? Of course, you must let go of all false doctrines when you do this, for God will allow anyone to believe anything they choose.
Then study and mediate on 1 thes. chapters 4 & 5. God's word is very clear to those who approach it with no preconceived glasses. Paul writes plainly that the rapture he writes about comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. John clinches the nail under the board, so to speak, by showing us the raptured church in heaven before he even begins the 70th week and Day of the Lord.. Perhaps then, you have created some other rapture.

it is OK to be dogmatic - Paul was so sure of His revelations he said anyone teaching a different gospel should be cursed. When one gets true revelation knowledge from God, it is like that. You know for SURE. But to be dogmatic on a false theory is very bad. God will certainly hold you responsible.

Lamad

Anyone who claims God's Word teaches a Pre-trib Rapture and says... it is written in God's Word, is telling an outright LIE.

Now, since there's no mistaking what I've said, can you Biblically disprove me??? And no, you cannot use the word of Pre-trib scholars, God's Word The Bible only.

We haven't had a challenge to the Pre-Trib Rapture folks here in a while, 'bout time for one.

Here, I'll start...

Disprove this...

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

The elect there is Christ's Church. Pre-Trib doctrines of men falsely teach Christ's coming to gather His Church happens prior to the start... of that tribulation. Jesus said there His coming is after... that tribulation, thus the Pre-Trib doctrine contradicts what Jesus Himself said there.

Brothertom · Jun 20, 2013

Babylon identifies a Satanic worship system, travelling through time from Nimrod [ Babel ], with several city-states, including ancient Babylon, & finally resting at Rome. There were 1300 satanist temples in Rome at the time of Nero & Paul. It was also a political/economic system, headed by a king; Caesar, who assured Satan his will & honor.

Eventually, Babylon entered into the age of symbollic shadows, yet weilding the full power of demonic sorcery within the Universal Church of Rome: The RCC. I believe that full blown black satanic worship, & sorcery is practiced there daily, [ but not limited to her ] & her influence is global, yet today. Babylon has always hated the Lord Jahweh, as she does today; the Pope is the evolving Caesar, & the Nicolaitan Priesthood or but an order of the Priests of Baal.

Babylon has enjoyed millinia of power & has rested in the west; Western Europe & yes, America. The Early Roman Catholic Church was a bit more up front in their satanic rituals:

"This made Pope Victor I only the second Bishop of "Christianity" in Rome since Linus 129 years earlier. However, Victor and his family who followed him including his son Pope Zephinrynus I (199-205) and his son Pope Callixtus I (217-222) were far from Christian.

The RCCs sacrifice of Children :

"Instead of the traditional sacrifice of children at major feast events, Victor instituted the sacrifice of children every time Mass was conducted. So bloodthirsty was their reign in the number of innocents sacrificed and corruption of office that in 222, Emperor Marcus Severus Alexander (222-235) had Callixtus executed."
http://one-evil.org/content/entities_locations_vatican.html

This is Babylon. Here is a list of Babylonian heresies:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm

I believe that the Queen of Heaven herself greets all who enter New York harbor: the statue of Liberty....where liberty is communicated as permissiveness!....DO AS YOU WILL! where in America, it has become law: There is no sin! & America fully embraces the Vatican, & honors her: Here is a list of 12 American Presidents who have bowed the knee at the Vatican, or a personal meeting with the Pope, at Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_meetings_between_the_Pope_and_the_President_of_the_United_States

Satan gives his blessing to whoever he wills, who honors him, & this is why America has been so blessed; True Christianity has been driven out of Babylon, & she desires to seep in & weaken, & she does. 50,000,000...fifty million butchered so far...at least....& 170,000 a year today.

"Now to your history lesson of deaths. From this early period of AD 313 to around AD 1600 over fifty million(50,000,000) true Christians were killed by this new state church because they would not yield to the dominance of it and their new order of baptism. Even with all the continued persecution from Judaism, Paganism and now the Catholic church, the true Christians grew, flourished and spread through out much of the known world."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101016092028AAqChUq

America is baptised into Babylon; a world wide satanic worship system, & an economic juggernaught: NYC the root for now. Rome, the USA & all of Europe will be annihilated by Islam & forced to bow to Allah...& wherever she now sits.

veteran · Jun 20, 2013

Brothertom said:
Babylon identifies a Satanic worship system, travelling through time from Nimrod [ Babel ], with several city-states, including ancient Babylon, & finally resting at Rome. There were 1300 satanist temples in Rome at the time of Nero & Paul. It was also a political/economic system, headed by a king; Caesar, who assured Satan his will & honor.

Eventually, Babylon entered into the age of symbollic shadows, yet weilding the full power of demonic sorcery within the Universal Church of Rome: The RCC. I believe that full blown black satanic worship, & sorcery is practiced there daily, [ but not limited to her ] & her influence is global, yet today. Babylon has always hated the Lord Jahweh, as she does today; the Pope is the evolving Caesar, & the Nicolaitan Priesthood or but an order of the Priests of Baal.

Babylon has enjoyed millinia of power & has rested in the west; Western Europe & yes, America. The Early Roman Catholic Church was a bit more up front in their satanic rituals:

"This made Pope Victor I only the second Bishop of "Christianity" in Rome since Linus 129 years earlier. However, Victor and his family who followed him including his son Pope Zephinrynus I (199-205) and his son Pope Callixtus I (217-222) were far from Christian.

The RCCs sacrifice of Children :
"Instead of the traditional sacrifice of children at major feast events, Victor instituted the sacrifice of children every time Mass was conducted. So bloodthirsty was their reign in the number of innocents sacrificed and corruption of office that in 222, Emperor Marcus Severus Alexander (222-235) had Callixtus executed."
http://one-evil.org/content/entities_locations_vatican.html

This is Babylon. Here is a list of Babylonian heresies:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm

I believe that the Queen of Heaven herself greets all who enter New York harbor: the statue of Liberty....where liberty is communicated as permissiveness!....DO AS YOU WILL! where in America, it has become law: There is no sin! & America fully embraces the Vatican, & honors her: Here is a list of 12 American Presidents who have bowed the knee at the Vatican, or a personal meeting with the Pope, at Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_meetings_between_the_Pope_and_the_President_of_the_United_States

Satan gives his blessing to whoever he wills, who honors him, & this is why America has been so blessed; True Christianity has been driven out of Babylon, & she desires to seep in & weaken, & she does. 50,000,000...fifty million butchered so far...at least....& 170,000 a year today.

"Now to your history lesson of deaths. From this early period of AD 313 to around AD 1600 over fifty million(50,000,000) true Christians were killed by this new state church because they would not yield to the dominance of it and their new order of baptism. Even with all the continued persecution from Judaism, Paganism and now the Catholic church, the true Christians grew, flourished and spread through out much of the known world."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101016092028AAqChUq

America is baptised into Babylon; a world wide satanic worship system, & an economic juggernaught: NYC the root for now. Rome, the USA & all of Europe will be annihilated by Islam & forced to bow to Allah...& wherever she now sits.

Nah, the Roman Church is NOT... the Babylon of Revelation 17 & 18. It's JERUSALEM. Only thing is its time to be the endtime Babylon Harlot has not yet come, it's for the very end of this world when all wars have ceased.

Might want to check your history sources too, for no such thing as child sacrifice was every practiced in a Roman Christianity.

Are you one of those false Jews come here to blaspheme Christianity too???

John S · Jun 20, 2013

BrotherTom - Would you mind telling us which denomination taught you the stuff that you preach?

iamlamad · Jun 22, 2013

veteran said:
Anyone who claims God's Word teaches a Pre-trib Rapture and says... it is written in God's Word, is telling an outright LIE.

Now, since there's no mistaking what I've said, can you Biblically disprove me??? And no, you cannot use the word of Pre-trib scholars, God's Word The Bible only.

We haven't had a challenge to the Pre-Trib Rapture folks here in a while, 'bout time for one.

Here, I'll start...

Disprove this...

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

The elect there is Christ's Church. Pre-Trib doctrines of men falsely teach Christ's coming to gather His Church happens prior to the start... of that tribulation. Jesus said there His coming is after... that tribulation, thus the Pre-Trib doctrine contradicts what Jesus Himself said there.

The scriptures you pasted are the word of God, and I believe all of it. But you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole, in making that gathering the rapture. it cannot possibly be the rapture, for Paul called his revelation of the rapture a mystery. If Jesus spoke of it first, it simply cannot be the rapture or Paul was mistaken about the mystery..

Next, the timing of this gathering is simply DIFFERENT that the timing of the rapture in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. Anyone approaching this with no preconceived glasses can see the difference. However, Matthew fits perfectly with the Rev. 19 coming of Jesus where the saints come WITH Him. The saints were WITH Him in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb (the very same wedding and supper all posttribbers will miss). It is AFTER that that we all get on white horses, and return to earth WITH Him. And this fits perfectly with John 14, that tells us He went to prepare a place for us, and He will then come and get us and take us to that place. Even 5th graders would understand that to be heaven. He is coming to take us to heaven. That is why we are THERE for the wedding. Paul tells us the timing is before the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, the impossible task for you is to prove that gathering from heaven and not the earth is really the rapture. Good luck with that! The rapture gathers from EARTH and it is before the day of the Lord and 70th week even begins. Perhaps you have overlooked Rev. 7 that shows the church IN HEAVEN before John as begun the week.

So OF COURSE He will come after, but you have MISSED His coming in the air before.

1 thes. 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18

THIS gathering will be before the 70th week begins, and before the Day of the Lord begins.

Lamad

For those who believe that Babylon is America…

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