The Doctrine of OSAS

williemac · May 25, 2013

ChurchAuthority said:
Sin or salvation is our perogative. We are ALL redeemed (paid for) but we are only saved if we cooperate with God's grace (Mark 16:20, Rom. 8:28, 2 Cor. 6:1).
I believe that's what you Protestants call, "Accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior."

You're looking at the Prodigal Son all wrong. The point is not that he was his father's physical son - just as we are not God's physical children. We are ADOPTED sons and daughters. The point of the parable is repentance and forgiveness. There is no sin so grave that is cannot be forgiven - unless you deny the power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

The only sin that is unforgiveable is the sin against the Holy Spirit which most scholars agree (Catholic AND Protestant) is the sin of final impenitence. Final impenitence is the refusal of the Holy Spirit to change you.

As for my knowing of somebosy is eternally lost - I don't know ONE single person - even Judas or Hitler or anyboy in history. The Catholic Church does not and has NEVER taught of knowing that somebody is in hell because we leave them to the mercy of God.

We cooperate with God's grace by accepting His offering for sin. He is the one who solves the sin problem, not us. And by the way, who says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a sin? Jesus said in Math.12:31, that every sin AND blasphemy will be forgiven man, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Sin is sin. Blasphemy is blasphemy. Every sin is every sin.There is no such thing as the unforgivable sin. However, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not universally agreed upon at all. But if someone is speaking against the Holy Spirit, he is in pride and unbelief. These cannot nor will not be forgiven, but can be repented from. This is the repentance unto eternal life. It amounts to the acceptance of God's role in our lives. We do agree on that, in a sense.

If you research the original transgression, it was that of Lucifer. He made a decision to sit on the throne as God. In doing so, he rejected his created purpose. Then if you study the similarities between his mindset and that of fallen man, you will see a pattern. Jesus in Luke 18:10-14, told of two men praying. One boasted about his works and the other simply beat his breast, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. Jesus commented that this second man went away justified..." for whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." This was repeated by James, who reminded his readers that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. (James 4:6).

Much of the church, both protestant and Catholic, have been diverted into thinking that sin is the main issue between man and God. However, sin is merely a symptom of the original and real issue: self exaltation. In terms of cause and effect, sin is the effect. What God is looking for is the repentance from pride. If we could repent from sin, there would have been no need for the cross. According to 2Cor.5:19, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God's role is to give life. Ours is to receive it....His way!

Here is my point. The sin problem was taken care of. We are being distracted by the doctrine that for all intents and purposes, causes us to think we need to take part in solving this problem. It is finished! Our part is to let God be God, and accept His role of Savior. This takes humility.
We cannot add our own work to His, for justification, life, or righteousness. These are His to give. He is God. We are not.

BTW, faith is not the qualification for grace. Humility is. Faith is the means by which grace is received in our lives. Faith is the mindset that "I cannot produce life nor righteousness, so therefore I accept these as a free gift from God" (Rom.5..the whole chapter) This involves humility.

As for your comment on the prodigal son, I just want to know how you feel this fits in with Heb.6:1-6. I never intended that you actually name anyone who is lost. That was not my point. I was simply commenting on the truth revealed by that passage, that salvation (eternal life) is a gift that cannot be given any more than one time. Therefore, leaving and coming back cannot apply to the subject of salvation into life.

Purity · May 26, 2013

Greetings,

I have noticed recently across many forums the subject of OSAS is fiercely debated although not as prevalent here at CB. What also comes with the doctrine of OSAS is the phrase "Grave Alone"...any thoughts?

What is the motivation of one who pushes OSAS and Grace Alone? Is it the idea of a works based salvation that is confronting?

Your thoughts.

Thanks
Purity

justaname · May 26, 2013

Purity said:
Greetings,

I have noticed recently across many forums the subject of OSAS is fiercely debated although not as prevalent here at CB. What also comes with the doctrine of OSAS is the phrase "Grave Alone"...any thoughts?

What is the motivation of one who pushes OSAS and Grace Alone? Is it the idea of a works based salvation that is confronting?

Your thoughts.

Thanks
Purity

Greetings Purity,

Romans 11:29
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Often it is advocated that you can "lose your salvation" or "walk away from the faith" or "continue in sin thereby losing your salvation." These ideas I disagree with.

Also many teach the idea that there is something the person must do in order to be awarded salvation, which again I disagree with.

My premis is this...
God is sovereign, He is the one who is in charge of salvation, not the individual. God knows the end from the beginning, thereby all that are saved are already saved in the eternal sense. Thereby the condition of salvation is dependent on God, and it is by His grace that we are saved, not our determination. Determination is a works based salvation and is not the gospel consistant with the teachings of the apostles.

As far as the question of works is concerned, I advocate works and encourage others to good works. These works although do nothing to earn salvation, yet they do glorify and bring honor to God.

The main combatant of this doctrine is pride and arrogance, so this is the power and or principality that is battled. One must first come to the realization that God selected every individual that hears the gospel. Next God foreknew every individual that was/is going to believe the gospel. It is only through the grace of God we come to this belief, not by some smart decision we have made. This is truly humbling to the individual, and many reject this notion, even though it is clearly depicted in scripture. Once we as Christians come to this humble place, we can truly begin to appreciate what it is we have trusted and invested in us. We can then be vessels that have the appropriate attitude to express our thanksgiving to God. In this thanksgiving we are filled with the desire to share what we have in us so others can also share in this freedom and joy. We are also filled with the desire to give back (do good works). The common fear of complacency is destroyed by the inner working of the Holy Spirit and humble condition of the believer.

Taken from here: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gracealone.html

"This rejection of sola gratia is not new, in fact, it is an ancient heresy known as Pelagianism. Named for the monk Pelagius (who lived in the fourth century) and who was the arch-foe of St. Augustine, Pelagianism is that teaching which emphasizes the human freedom, sees original sin not as corruption and guilt inherited from our first father but simply the bad example introduced by into the world by Adam. Pelagianism sees grace as simply an influence enticing us to act upon proper information. And it is only natural that rugged, self-made, independent, frontier Americans would naturally gravitate to a theology that emphasized human ability and natural freedom to act. It is from Pelagius and not Holy Scripture that we derive the idea that children are born innocent, not sinful, and it is from Pelagius that we learn that sin is simply that which we do, not what we are. In the words of one historian, "America is very much in favor of this Pelagian idea that every individual can always make a new beginning, that he is able by his individual freedom to make decisions for or against the divine."

Another motivator I have for the promotion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is the boldness and confidence it instills in the believer when confronting spiritual warfare. Often the enemy desires to make us feel "not good enough' or on the verge of being disqualified. These feelings can hinder growth in the believer. Being armed with the notion that our salvation is as sure as God's promises and is dependent on our surrender as opposed to our determination allows God to be strong in our weakness. Knowing that the New Covenant is not a conditional covenant or suzerainty treaty is to know that God is the one purposing the salvation of all His sheep and we are merely the benefactors.

This does not give us a "sit back and enjoy the ride" smugness. No, we are empowered all the more to walk in the Spirit, do all we can to bring honor and glory to God, and be diligent in our faith and thanksgiving.

These two doctrines are close together because grace alone says we did nothing to earn or choose our salvation. The perseverance of the saints doctrine says there is nothing we can do to keep our salvation. Both of these ideas directly attack our human pride and arrogance and leave us helplessly and solely dependent on God. No wonder it is fiercely debated!

Perseverance of the Saints
by Nathan Pitchford

What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Isa 46:4 even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
Jer 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Phi 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Heb 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Rev 21:7-8 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
1Co 1:30-31 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Purity · May 27, 2013

Hi Justaname

Thank you for your reply.

My premis is this...
God is sovereign, He is the one who is in charge of salvation, not the individual.

I agree with your comment here.

God knows the end from the beginning, thereby all that are saved are already saved in the eternal sense.

Cannot argue with this also.

Thereby the condition of salvation is dependent on God, and it is by His grace that we are saved, not our determination.

So you believe we can be saved without our determination? Would this not go against Heb 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (Heb 11:6)

Are you saying regardless of ones attitude to God's Word it is possible to know of God or His promises?

When you say "determination" I align this to mean seeking, drawing nigh, diligently seeking and so on. The Greek is ekzeeteo meaning to seek after so if I were to rephrase what this is saying here "No man who does not seek God diligently through His Word can please Him"

Lets assume you are right in regards to determination not being a prerequisite of salvation - on what basis can one please God? And if pleasing Him is in fact not required at all - on what basis does He extend salvation? If there is no basis whereby a response is required, then I assume this would make God a debtor to all men, would it not?

"Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost"

There was one lost wasn't there? John 17:12NET

Purity

jiggyfly · May 27, 2013

Purity said:
When you say "determination" I align this to mean seeking, drawing nigh, diligently seeking and so on. The Greek is ekzeeteo meaning to seek after so if I were to rephrase what this is saying here "No man who does not seek God diligently through His Word can please Him"

Purity

I understand the "seek after" but you lost me with the "through His Word" part, where is that in the scripture you referenced?

Purity · May 27, 2013

Greetings Jiggy

The comment is made in connection with Faith being the pleasing attribute.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)

I also like how the Word of God is the source of our hope and comfort.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
(Rom 15:4)

Purity

jiggyfly · May 27, 2013

OK I understand how you make the connection but one must be careful not to read into a scripture more than is expressed through it's context.
So do you think one can only come to know God through reading a bible?

Purity · May 27, 2013

jiggyfly said:
OK I understand how you make the connection but one must be careful not to read into a scripture more than is expressed through it's context.
So do you think one can only come to know God through reading a bible?

Jiggy,

The context of both those passages identifies the Word of God with the Scriptures and vice versa, although His Word is not confined to the Scriptures, you might say it is the place He chose to store His wisdom. The Apostle Paul instructing Timothy commended him to continue in the things he learned of his grandmother Lois, amazing woman! The Scriptures are "able" to make one wise unto salvation. But you already know the value of the written Word.

Purity

jiggyfly · May 27, 2013

Sorry but I just don't see it that way.

Purity · May 27, 2013

jiggyfly said:
Sorry but I just don't see it that way.

Which way do you see it?

justaname · May 27, 2013

Purity said:
Hi Justaname

Thank you for your reply.

I agree with your comment here.

Cannot argue with this also.

So you believe we can be saved without our determination? Would this not go against Heb 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (Heb 11:6)

Are you saying regardless of ones attitude to God's Word it is possible to know of God or His promises?

When you say "determination" I align this to mean seeking, drawing nigh, diligently seeking and so on. The Greek is ekzeeteo meaning to seek after so if I were to rephrase what this is saying here "No man who does not seek God diligently through His Word can please Him"

Lets assume you are right in regards to determination not being a prerequisite of salvation - on what basis can one please God? And if pleasing Him is in fact not required at all - on what basis does He extend salvation? If there is no basis whereby a response is required, then I assume this would make God a debtor to all men, would it not?

There was one lost wasn't there? John 17:12NET

Purity

Purity,

Let me first say your inquires are well thought out and presented in a respectable mannor. Thank you for using tack with your responses and questions. It is pleasing to dialogue in a fashion that is honorable to God and man alike.

To the first question:

Faith is a definite requirement of salvation. Faith although is not something we "muster up" or generate on our own. Faith is a decision yet it is different from determination.

Hebrews 11:1-3
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

The first verse can also be translated: Now faith is the substance of things expected, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is better described as trust, belief, or confidence. Faith can be and is a motivator, which may build a determination, but it is not through determination we are saved but by grace through faith. We can determine to continue in faith, which is great for every believer to do, and this I encourage. But again it is not our determination that gains or even keeps our salvation, God does. This resolve is strength, yet look as to whom your strength depends on, yourself. Self determination rejects God and says I can do this on my own. So from a more humble position I say, "I am determined to continue in my faith, and this I will if God allows and strengthens me."

determination |diˌtərməˈnāSHən|
noun
1 firmness of purpose; resoluteness: he advanced with an unflinching determination.
2 the process of establishing something exactly, typically by calculation or research: determination of molecular structures.
• Law the settlement of a dispute by the authoritative decision of a judge or arbitrator.
• Law a judicial decision or sentence.
3 the controlling or deciding of something's nature or outcome: genetic sex determination.
4 Law the cessation of an estate or interest.
5 archaic a tendency to move in a fixed direction.

Supporting scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

For the second question.

John 17:12
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Psalm 41:9
9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.

In this we can see that prophesy and scripture is fulfilled in the son of perdition. From this knowledge and perspective we can assuredly gather none were lost, because this one was determined beforehand. Thereby he was never truly of the fold to be saved, yet was always of the fold to perish.

In scripture we have two forms of a calling. The first form is the general gospel call. This calling is more generic and goes to every person that hears. This calling can be refused or rejected.

We also have another calling that is more specific and is used in Romans.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This calling is not rejected or refused. These are predestined, saved. These will continue in faith to the end. These do the will of the Father because they are conformed into the image of the Son. These are those who overcome, raised to eternal life. In these salvation is sealed with the HolySpirit, assured by the promises of the Lord Almighty.

God is my strength and salvation.

Purity · May 27, 2013

justaname said:
Purity,

Let me first say your inquires are well thought out and presented in a respectable mannor. Thank you for using tack with your responses and questions. It is pleasing to dialogue in a fashion that is honorable to God and man alike.
To the first question:

Faith is a definite requirement of salvation. Faith although is not something we "muster up" or generate on our own. Faith is a decision yet it is different from determination.

would have nothing to reward.

Likewise it is refreshing to have amicable dialogue.

I agree in what you have said, however we will keep coming back to "our part" in obtaining faith.

And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. (Luk 17:5)

The context here is seen in the disciples recognizing that time-after-time forgiveness requires great faith and that great faith must be requested by the one seeking it. Remember the point Heb 11 makes - without a this determination (firmness of purpose; resoluteness) one cannot please God.

In this matter God is pleased to allow man to respond freely for without this God cannot be pleased

Click to expand...

Faith is better described as trust, belief, or confidence. Faith can be and is a motivator, which may build a determination, but it is not through determination we are saved but by grace through faith. We can determine to continue in faith, which is great for every believer to do, and this I encourage. But again it is not our determination that gains or even keeps our salvation, God does. This resolve is strength, yet look as to whom your strength depends on, yourself. Self determination rejects God and says I can do this on my own. So from a more humble position I say, "I am determined to continue in my faith, and this I will if God allows and strengthens me."

If you acknowledged the condition of "I say" then it is you who through humility seek for well doing.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Rom 2:7)

determination |diˌtərməˈnāSHən|
noun
1 firmness of purpose; resoluteness: he advanced with an unflinching determination.
2 the process of establishing something exactly, typically by calculation or research: determination of molecular structures.
• Law the settlement of a dispute by the authoritative decision of a judge or arbitrator.
• Law a judicial decision or sentence.
3 the controlling or deciding of something's nature or outcome: genetic sex determination.
4 Law the cessation of an estate or interest.
5 archaic a tendency to move in a fixed direction.

The bold text is interesting.

I can see you are careful not to rob God of His Glory - this is an admirable quality to have in ones possession.

You will see I used "firmness of purpose" to describe our motive and intent of the heart, but what of "controlling or deciding"? Do you not believe God allows us to control or make decisions in regard to our walk?

I believe Jeremiah presents this to us in very real terms.

I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps. Correct me, O LORD, but in justice; not in your anger, lest you bring me to nothing. (Jer 10:23-24)

Can you see how a "decision" to correct ones steps remains is approved of God and in His Will and if requested with sincerity and in truth you cannot boast in the flesh if God is willing to narrow your way. How many examples could be shown of a man or woman "humbling themselves" which caused God to act in their favour.

This is why I personally struggle with OSAS because I deeply appreciate God's ability to wait for His children to come to Him...as James said "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. (Jas 4:8)

OSAS and Grace Alonist's rarely if ever speak about "their part" in overcoming, as Jesus commanded they do. Often I perceive a "presumption of Grace" is seen in the language of those putting forth this teaching.

Some time ago I wrote a few notes in Noah who is a great example of what is being said here.

I will dig it out and post it.

Nice chatting

Purity

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh"

The verb is expressive.

Noah must have "sought" grace in order to have "found" it.

It implies some action on his part.

It is this part which is the humble and contrite heart which finds its expression in a quiet dependency upon divine favour which seems to be lacking today. This reliance is beseeching, a pleading with tears and much sorrow and not the boastfully loud expression of we often find in OSAS and Grace Alone believers (generalised).

I appreciate how convenient it is for believers to fall into a presumptuous expectation of Grace. No such thing could be said of Noah. He sought it in silence and found it in silence. (Grace is not so much received but found to be in God; in His Character - its His disposition)

The R.V. here renders "grace" as "favour". The Hebrew word is from a root chanan signifying "to bend", to lean over as in kindness to an inferior. It is expressive therefore, of Yahweh's condescension in figuratively stooping down to help fallen man.

It’s certainly not unmerited as some purport. Though it is not of works either. James understood this principle when he wrote “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” (Jas 4:8)

Noah was in covenant relationship with God and God honoured His part by His faithfulness, all the while acknowledging Noah's obedience and walk, yet being a sinner.

This is best describe by God Himself here.

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. (Gen 6:9)

Another condition for those who can see is a man who seeks to be just, perfect and walks with God.

Can a person receive Grace without drawing near? If you say no then you have answered the OP. If you say yes, you have fallen greatly in His presence.

In Noah's case, God looked upon him and this took the form of exempting him from the general destruction reserved for the human race. Was this provision extended to Noah on Noah's own merits? To mean, did Noah earn this favour? Certainly not. But in pleading in Gods strength was his action of Man, or God? If one pleads for forgiveness is this not approved by God? Certainly so!

If it had been on the basis of a work, Noah would have had no need to plead the favour of Yahweh; he could have claimed salvation as his right. On what grounds could Noah, as a sinner, seek the favour of Yahweh? On the basis of the forgiveness of sins through the promised Redeemer (Gen. 3:15). The atoning efficacy of Christ's offering is retrospective as well as prospective; it reached back as well as forward. Paul taught that the Lord's death embraced "the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant" as well as those that even then were future (Heb. 9:15). Noah's faith (Heb. 11:7) was a confident anticipation of things hoped for, and embraced that promise as well as the other promises and teachings of Yahweh.

Therefore.

He sought and found grace in the eyes of Yahweh.

Purity

justaname · May 27, 2013

Purity,

So the question arises, can humanity, in it's fallen condition, please God, without first receiving some form of regeneration or grace, be it if only in the reception of the gospel itself? Must not this first step be initiated by God, extending His hand to the rebellious state any individual may be in? If man in his fallen condition rejects God, and if the scriptures are true; "no one seeks after God" (Romans 3:10-12) then how can we know we made the decision to turn to Him?

Let me pose this in a different mannor.
A Prayer That a Synergist Won't Pray
(An Open Challenge to All Synergists)
by John Hendryx
Here is a prayer that would be consistent with the synergist's theology if he really believed that faith is a product of our unregenerated human nature and not the result of grace alone:
"God, I give you glory for everything else, but not my faith ... This is the one thing that is my very own that I produced of my fallen natural capacities. For this little bit the glory is mine. So I thank you Lord that I am not like other men who do not have faith. When you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID.While You deserve glory for all I have Lord, my faith was the one part that I contributed to the price of my redemption, apart from and independent of the effectual work of Your Holy Spirit."

For the complete document: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prayer_synergist.html

Lets take a look at another individual this phrase, "you have found favor" was also given to.

Luke 1:28-30
28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

Are we to say Mary sought God's grace in being the recipient of Theotokos?

Before we travel to far from the topic, let me surrender this information. I do believe our sanctification to be of synergistic harmony, yet again as from the Jeremiah text it is written "correct me O Lord" not I will correct myself. The posture the prophet presents is prostrate, not one of determination.

Purity said:
If you acknowledged the condition of "I say" then it is you who through humility seek for well doing.

Correct, although it is only from my current condition of being sanctified that I can say this. I would not seek well doing if God had not given me the desire to seek the such. And if I did seek this on my own accord, it would be from my own motivation such as pride or vanity, not of anything that is good.

Purity said:
I agree in what you have said, however we will keep coming back to "our part" in obtaining faith.

From the standpoint of the disciples, they already had faith. This is evidenced by the fact they ask for an increase and not for an initial deposit. When spoken of the initial deposit we have:

Matthew 16:17
17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

From this text we can see Peter's only "part in obtaining faith" was receiver.

Purity said:
Do you not believe God allows us to control or make decisions in regard to our walk?

I am not a fatalist. I believe in compatibilism. From this I mean God is completely sovereign, and man is fully culpable for his actions. Yes we have the ability to make decisions, still God remains sovereign.

Purity said:
It is this part which is the humble and contrite heart which finds its expression in a quiet dependency upon divine favour which seems to be lacking today. This reliance is beseeching, a pleading with tears and much sorrow and not the boastfully loud expression of we find in OSAS and Grace Alone.

It is quite ironic you use this language here, because my personal experience begs to differ with your opinion. Yes, with much tears and sorrow, much anguish and distress, and also in tears of thanksgiving and joy I have sought the Lord. Still at this season I give no credit to myself, nor do I see myself any different than my unbelieving neighbor other than the gift of grace bestowed upon me to even seek the Lord. This verse may shed a little light on the subject:

Psalm 119:71
71 It is good for me that I was afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.

If it were not for the affliction, I would have never sought Him. Again it is to God's glory, not my own.

Purity · May 28, 2013

justaname said:
Purity,

So the question arises, can humanity, in it's fallen condition, please God, without first receiving some form of regeneration or grace, be it if only in the reception of the gospel itself? Must not this first step be initiated by God, extending His hand to the rebellious state any individual may be in? If man in his fallen condition rejects God, and if the scriptures are true; "no one seeks after God" (Romans 3:10-12) then how can we know we made the decision to turn to Him?

The passage cited in Romans 3:10-12

Notice how the Psalmist extends his previous thought, for "understanding" brings the responsibility to "seek" God and observe His ways. It is only by such "seeking" that the truth of God might be found (Acts 17:27).

Would you imply God forces a person to make the decision and to seek? free will offering?

Let me pose this in a different mannor.
A Prayer That a Synergist Won't Pray
(An Open Challenge to All Synergists)
by John Hendryx
Here is a prayer that would be consistent with the synergist's theology if he really believed that faith is a product of our unregenerated human nature and not the result of grace alone:

"God, I give you glory for everything else, but not my faith ... This is the one thing that is my very own that I produced of my fallen natural capacities. For this little bit the glory is mine. So I thank you Lord that I am not like other men who do not have faith. When you extended your grace to all men some did not make use of it, BUT I DID.While You deserve glory for all I have Lord, my faith was the one part that I contributed to the price of my redemption, apart from and independent of the effectual work of Your Holy Spirit."

If you read this again can you see the extreme exaggerated view its portraying. I have found in my studies, prayer and my own failings when a person "exaggerates" any theological position in defence of another theological position its often imbalanced and lacking truth.

This is a point in mention.

Try and discover how the Glory of God works through these decisions and though they come from out of us and originate out of an "enlightened" mind, "its freely" given back to God (Hebrews 11:6)

I think its found here in Isa 50 concerning the Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. (Isa 50:5)

Of course if you believe Jesus or yourself take no part at all in this process of learning then we have a Great puppeteer which I cannot see is happening here in Isa 50.

If one is conscious in not doing something its their decision and again a free will offering.

For the complete document: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/prayer_synergist.html

Lets take a look at another individual this phrase, "you have found favor" was also given to.

Luke 1:28-30
28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

Are we to say Mary sought God's grace in being the recipient of Theotokos?

Yes but what made her favoured? Mary must have sought favour to have found it. If there was merit in His favour where do you think it lay?

Before we travel to far from the topic, let me surrender this information. I do believe our sanctification to be of synergistic harmony, yet again as from the Jeremiah text it is written "correct me O Lord" not I will correct myself. The posture the prophet presents is prostrate, not one of determination.

Whether a person is determined (willing one self) to pray, prostrate themselves if the determination is approved of God who am I to say otherwise?

Correct, although it is only from my current condition of being sanctified that I can say this. I would not seek well doing if God had not given me the desire to seek the such. And if I did seek this on my own accord, it would be from my own motivation such as pride or vanity, not of anything that is good.

Many people seek God for one reason or another, not always with good intentions. Take Nicodemus, he came to the Son of God hesitantly and consider the manifestation of faith he reflected back to God, both while His son was alive and in his death. Was his intentions in coming to Jesus out of darkness motivated with pure determination? Not so, did Jesus impart a more pure way, certainly he did! Jesus even rebuked him subtly for coming to him out of darkness but Nicodemus did not depart from the Lord. Things are not as black and white as we would like them, and this subject is not as simple "OSAS and Grace Alone".
From the standpoint of the disciples, they already had faith. This is evidenced by the fact they ask for an increase and not for an initial deposit. When spoken of the initial deposit we have:

Matthew 16:17
17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

From this text we can see Peter's only "part in obtaining faith" was receiver.

And yet later Peter would write:

And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? (1Pe 3:13)

"If" is a powerful little subjunctive.

Yes we have the ability to make decisions, still God remains sovereign.

(sigh of relief)

It is quite ironic you use this language here, because my personal experience begs to differ with your opinion. Yes, with much tears and sorrow, much anguish and distress, and also in tears of thanksgiving and joy I have sought the Lord. Still at this season I give no credit to myself, nor do I see myself any different than my unbelieving neighbor other than the gift of grace bestowed upon me to even seek the Lord. This verse may shed a little light on the subject:

But did you seek the Lord and was He found?

Psalm 119:71
71 It is good for me that I was afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.

If it were not for the affliction, I would have never sought Him. Again it is to God's glory, not my own.

So you believe ever person who is afflicted by God will of their own will seek Him and be found of Him? David sought wisdom sincerely and it was given to him from on High. From this wisdom he then knew what was good for him. In fact much of his learning was in his affliction as it was the Lord Jesus Christ - "he learned obedience".

justaname · May 28, 2013

Let me make the position explicit so we are on sure ground. I am speaking strictly about our first response of faith. This first response must be deposited, sparked, enacted, initiated, started by God due to our rebellious nature. This is the grace of God in action on behalf of the non-believer. Sola Gratia

From the Isaiah passage we have "the Lord has open my ears"
From the Matthew passage concerning Peter we have the Lord revealing the understanding.

1Corinthians 4:7
7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

John 3:27
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.

Hebrews 5:4
4 And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.

Romans 12:3
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:7-8
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”

1Peter 4:11
11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I have already stated I see the sanctification process as synergistic.

None can doubt that we do seek the Lord, yet the question remains, why do we seek the Lord. Is it from our own accord? If the answer is yes, then we are to glory in ourselves for the decision made. If the answer is no, then all glory be to God on High for first seeking this unrepentant sinner!

Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

From here God gets the glory.

Colossians 2:13
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

What act of faith can a dead person make?

Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

This choosing on behalf of God is long before we can determine anything.

1 John 4:19
19 We love, because He first loved us.

I think this says it all.

williemac · May 28, 2013

Justaname. The above post is reflective of what some label hyper-Calvinism. If that is the case,I believe it to be in error in consideration of the nature of God. To prove my point, I will ask a simple question. What was the criteria that God used to determine who would be saved and who would not? Of course if you are a universalist, then this question is irrelevant. Either way, the premise you take is in conflict with revealed truth. It is based on a concept of man's depravity that takes depravity to an extreme that the bible has not intended to convey.

Man can indeed respond to God without being "tweaked" covertly by Him in a manipulative sense.

The reason is simple. We were created to have and enjoy relationship. If our love for God is merely manipulated, then He would have no pleasure in it, the same way that if my wife's love for me was not genuinely given of her own choosing. Yes, she responded to me. I was the initiator of the relationship the same as God is the initiator and we are the responders. But we are not puppets. God is not a control freak. The dynamic of relationship does not allow for the forced participation or the unwilling manipulation of one of the parties into the relationship. We have courts, judges, and jails that respond to this kind of abuse.

So if you believe that some indeed are not saved, then how did God decide this? What was His criteria? Did He flip a coin? Did He draw straws? Why did we win the lottery and not others? Are you going to be able to reply to this without putting His nature in a bad light? Go for it.

domenic · May 28, 2013

justaname said:
I simply question if someone can thwart God's plan for sanctification in the life of the believer once He has started. (Philippians 1:6)

If Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity (1John 2:2), then what sin that I may commit will exclude me from salvation, excluding the whole "blaspheme the HolySpirt"?

How can anyone live up to God's holy standard? Lets keep in mind sins of omission, sins of pride, sins of vanity, impure thoughts, unwholesome words, and so on...

Where is the tipping point? Just when is salvation lost in the believer?

I believe that once we are created anew (2 Corinthians 5:17), sealed with the HolySpirit (Ephesians 4:30), we are protected (Psalms 121:7-8) by a jealous God (Exodus 34:14), that instills fear in our hearts so that we will not turn from Him. (Jeremiah 32:40) He changes our thinking pattern,(Romans 12:2) and moves us to good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

All of this is His doing and not our own! We have faith that El Elyon is a God that keeps His promises. (Daniel 9:4)

Please do not be fooled into thinking that hollow or empty confessions of faith are redemptive, (Matthew 7:21) or that a life of faith allows lawlessness. (Romans 6:1-2) These are not on the path of salvation.

I agree we need to cooperate in the sanctification process, and this is what all the exhorting and warning passages are about. (Romans 6:19) Yet does everyone progress in the same fashion? Are we to judge the timing of the progression?

Those who are not brought into salvation, were they ever going to be saved by God in the first place? Were they ever sealed with the HolySpirit? Remember God knows the end from the beginning, (Isaiah 46:10) thereby He knows all those who are saved by name. (John 10:3)

Jesus did not die for our SINS. He died to remove the sin passed on to the human family by Adam.
The sins we do, God will forgive us if we ask, but God does not remove the consequences of the sins we do.

ChurchAuthority · May 28, 2013

williemac said:
We cooperate with God's grace by accepting His offering for sin. He is the one who solves the sin problem, not us. And by the way, who says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a sin? Jesus said in Math.12:31, that every sin AND blasphemy will be forgiven man, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Sin is sin. Blasphemy is blasphemy. Every sin is every sin.There is no such thing as the unforgivable sin. However, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not universally agreed upon at all. But if someone is speaking against the Holy Spirit, he is in pride and unbelief. These cannot nor will not be forgiven, but can be repented from. This is the repentance unto eternal life. It amounts to the acceptance of God's role in our lives. We do agree on that, in a sense.

If you research the original transgression, it was that of Lucifer. He made a decision to sit on the throne as God. In doing so, he rejected his created purpose. Then if you study the similarities between his mindset and that of fallen man, you will see a pattern. Jesus in Luke 18:10-14, told of two men praying. One boasted about his works and the other simply beat his breast, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. Jesus commented that this second man went away justified..." for whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." This was repeated by James, who reminded his readers that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. (James 4:6).

Much of the church, both protestant and Catholic, have been diverted into thinking that sin is the main issue between man and God. However, sin is merely a symptom of the original and real issue: self exaltation. In terms of cause and effect, sin is the effect. What God is looking for is the repentance from pride. If we could repent from sin, there would have been no need for the cross. According to 2Cor.5:19, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God's role is to give life. Ours is to receive it....His way!

Here is my point. The sin problem was taken care of. We are being distracted by the doctrine that for all intents and purposes, causes us to think we need to take part in solving this problem. It is finished! Our part is to let God be God, and accept His role of Savior. This takes humility.
We cannot add our own work to His, for justification, life, or righteousness. These are His to give. He is God. We are not.

BTW, faith is not the qualification for grace. Humility is. Faith is the means by which grace is received in our lives. Faith is the mindset that "I cannot produce life nor righteousness, so therefore I accept these as a free gift from God" (Rom.5..the whole chapter) This involves humility.

As for your comment on the prodigal son, I just want to know how you feel this fits in with Heb.6:1-6. I never intended that you actually name anyone who is lost. That was not my point. I was simply commenting on the truth revealed by that passage, that salvation (eternal life) is a gift that cannot be given any more than one time. Therefore, leaving and coming back cannot apply to the subject of salvation into life.

First of all - the "sin problem" has not been taken care of. We STILL possess copncupiscence, or a proclivity towards sin. Paul addressed this in Rom. 7:14-20. He even goes so far as to refer to himself as the "chief of sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15). Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary redeemed (paid for) us and took our place by suffering the consequences of our sins. He didn't SAVE us because that requires our cooperation. We are saved BY Gods grace THROUGH our cooperation and faithfulness.

You're wrong when you say that there is no sin against the Holy Spirit. As I stated before, most Christian scholars agree that this is final impenitence or refusal of the Holy Spirit. Contrary to your claim - you cannot repent from final impenitence. This is an oxymoron.

Finally, sin IS the main issue between man and God and self-exaltation is sin.

justaname said:
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Ezekiel 18:23
23 “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

1 Timothy 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

2Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

God has brought salvation to all men, yet all men do not believe. Being God knows the end from the beginning He knows all who believe and do His will. These are the only ones being "saved."

Ephesians 1:11
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

God is sovereign. He keeps all of His flock without losing one.

Nobody will be snatched from God's hand. Many leave the hand of God on their own accord. God does not force his love and grace on anybody. To do so would make Him a monster and a spiritual rapist.

OSAS is a false doctrine based on scrupulosity and spiritual pride. I have presented just as many verses that seemingly contradict what you have posted, however, Scripture does not contradict itself. It HARMONIZES with itself. 1 Tim. 2:4 says that God wills the salvation of ALL, yet ALL are NOT saved. Does this mean that God has failed or that His will is meaniongless? NO.

My will is that my daughter stays away from drugs. If she doesn't, that was HER choice. The entire falsehood that is Calvinism simply denies the free will that God gave uis.

justaname · May 28, 2013

williemac said:
Justaname. The above post is reflective of what some label hyper-Calvinism. If that is the case,I believe it to be in error in consideration of the nature of God. To prove my point, I will ask a simple question. What was the criteria that God used to determine who would be saved and who would not? Of course if you are a universalist, then this question is irrelevant. Either way, the premise you take is in conflict with revealed truth. It is based on a concept of man's depravity that takes depravity to an extreme that the bible has not intended to convey.

Man can indeed respond to God without being "tweaked" covertly by Him in a manipulative sense.

The reason is simple. We were created to have and enjoy relationship. If our love for God is merely manipulated, then He would have no pleasure in it, the same way that if my wife's love for me was not genuinely given of her own choosing. Yes, she responded to me. I was the initiator of the relationship the same as God is the initiator and we are the responders. But we are not puppets. God is not a control freak. The dynamic of relationship does not allow for the forced participation or the unwilling manipulation of one of the parties into the relationship. We have courts, judges, and jails that respond to this kind of abuse.

So if you believe that some indeed are not saved, then how did God decide this? What was His criteria? Did He flip a coin? Did He draw straws? Why did we win the lottery and not others? Are you going to be able to reply to this without putting His nature in a bad light? Go for it.

Well technically there are two main answers to your question.

Arminianism-Foreknowledge God foreknew those who would have faith, so before the foundations of the word God chose these from the bunch.

Calvinism-Namesake or reprobation

From the Calvinist perspective we do have the Romans passage:
Romans 9:22-24
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

In either camp one must be "tweaked" from their original state of unbelief. Take the example of the child; how can that child ever come to faith if they never hear of God?

I hold to the notion that the gospel message itself is a miraculous divine instrument, used by God to move the unbeliever to belief. I believe the HolySpirit to be the acting agent in the message. I believe everyone who hears the message has been divinely appointed to hear the message. I also believe that those who do believe the message with a salvific faith have been preselected to believe before the foundations of the world. All of this aligns with scripture and I could post the correlating verses, yet that is probably better suited for a different thread.

domenic said:
Jesus did not die for our SINS. He died to remove the sin passed on to the human family by Adam.
The sins we do, God will forgive us if we ask, but God does not remove the consequences of the sins we do.

1 Corinthians 15:3
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1Peter 2:24
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Galatians 1:4
4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

ChurchAuthority said:
First of all - the "sin problem" has not been taken care of. We STILL possess copncupiscence, or a proclivity towards sin. Paul addressed this in Rom. 7:14-20. He even goes so far as to refer to himself as the "chief of sinners" (1 Tim. 1:15). Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary redeemed (paid for) us and took our place by suffering the consequences of our sins. He didn't SAVE us because that requires our cooperation. We are saved BY Gods grace THROUGH our cooperation and faithfulness.

You're wrong when you say that there is no sin against the Holy Spirit. As I stated before, most Christian scholars agree that this is final impenitence or refusal of the Holy Spirit. Contrary to your claim - you cannot repent from final impenitence. This is an oxymoron.

Finally, sin IS the main issue between man and God and self-exaltation is sin.

Nobody will be snatched from God's hand. Many leave the hand of God on their own accord. God does not force his love and grace on anybody. To do so would make Him a monster and a spiritual rapist.

OSAS is a false doctrine based on scrupulosity and spiritual pride. I have presented just as many verses that seemingly contradict what you have posted, however, Scripture does not contradict itself. It HARMONIZES with itself. 1 Tim. 2:4 says that God wills the salvation of ALL, yet ALL are NOT saved. Does this mean that God has failed or that His will is meaniongless? NO.

My will is that my daughter stays away from drugs. If she doesn't, that was HER choice. The entire falsehood that is Calvinism simply denies the free will that God gave uis.

And as I have presented before, the Good Shepherd goes to retrieve all of His sheep.

I have been able to show how all scripture harmonizes with this doctrine, yet you have not been able to show how your doctrine can explain even one of the verses I have presented.

Here is something to read on "free will"
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17398-god-over-free-will-take-2/

ChurchAuthority · May 28, 2013

justaname said:
And as I have presented before, the Good Shepherd goes to retrieve all of His sheep.

I have been able to show how all scripture harmonizes with this doctrine, yet you have not been able to show how your doctrine can explain even one of the verses I have presented.

Here is something to read on "free will"
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17398-god-over-free-will-take-2/

Well, I read the link and it was simply yhe same perversions of Scripture in longer form.

When Jesus (who is GOD) rebuked Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34), He told them in no uncertain terms:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

This is a prime example of FREE WILL.

Jerusalem was the City of God - His shining light, yet He allowed it to be destroyed and His holy Temple defiled and destroyed along with it. Do you actually think it was Gods will that Israel lose the faith and become like an unfaithful wife to Him? That His holy Temple be defiled by pagans and destroyed?

Your problem, as I have said before, is that you don't understand Biblical language. "Predestined" doesn't always mean that God coerced. "Foreknowledge" doesn't mean that God knew first or that He MADE something happen. It means that He ALWAYS knew.

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