The Doctrine of OSAS

Purity · May 28, 2013

justaname said:
Let me make the position explicit so we are on sure ground. I am speaking strictly about our first response of faith. This first response must be deposited, sparked, enacted, initiated, started by God due to our rebellious nature. This is the grace of God in action on behalf of the non-believer. Sola Gratia

From the Isaiah passage we have "the Lord has open my ears"
From the Matthew passage concerning Peter we have the Lord revealing the understanding.

1Corinthians 4:7
7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

John 3:27
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.

Hebrews 5:4
4 And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.

Romans 12:3
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:7-8
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”

1Peter 4:11
11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I have already stated I see the sanctification process as synergistic.

None can doubt that we do seek the Lord, yet the question remains, why do we seek the Lord. Is it from our own accord? If the answer is yes, then we are to glory in ourselves for the decision made. If the answer is no, then all glory be to God on High for first seeking this unrepentant sinner!

Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

From here God gets the glory.

Colossians 2:13
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

What act of faith can a dead person make?

Ephesians 1:4
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

This choosing on behalf of God is long before we can determine anything.

1 John 4:19
19 We love, because He first loved us.

I think this says it all.

Justaname,

From your comments you believe then that Grace is conditional.

"None can doubt that we do seek the Lord, yet the question remains, why do we seek the Lord. Is it from our own accord? If the answer is yes, then we are to glory in ourselves for the decision made. If the answer is no, then all glory be to God on High for first seeking this unrepentant sinner!"

If many are called but few are chosen on what basis are they refused? We agree not all are called or drawn into the Son? We agree of those called some a sheep and some are goats?

Please answer this without falling on the foreknowledge of God as it is apparent He does not always act on His foreknowledge nor is He bound by it.

Enjoying our discussion thank you
Purity

ChurchAuthority said:
Well, I read the link and it was simply yhe same perversions of Scripture in longer form.

When Jesus (who is GOD) rebuked Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34), He told them in no uncertain terms:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

This is a prime example of FREE WILL.

Jerusalem was the City of God - His shining light, yet He allowed it to be destroyed and His holy Temple defiled and destroyed along with it. Do you actually think it was Gods will that Israel lose the faith and become like an unfaithful wife to Him? That His holy Temple be defiled by pagans and destroyed?

Your problem, as I have said before, is that you don't understand Biblical language. "Predestined" doesn't always mean that God coerced. "Foreknowledge" doesn't mean that God knew first or that He MADE something happen. It means that He ALWAYS knew.

Church,

Though I don't agree with all you have said...the later part of your post is a truth I have drawn to in my studies of the Scriptures. OSAS and Grace Alonist often use the foreknowledge of God as the basis for their argument. Its comparable to the assumption of Grace, but here one assumes because God knows something in the future he is bound to act by it. I believe the example of Judas is a great example.

Imagine if Christ gave up on Judas "because" the Scripture foretold of his betrayal; Jesus never ceased from extending an arm to him in the hope he would change. We know Scripture was fulfilled in that moment, however it does not mean at any given time Judas could have repented of his actions and remained in the fold.

OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine because it makes God the debtor to man and we know this is not truth.

Proverb 1 is another good reference in opposing OSAS

But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; (Pro 1:25-26)

In other words, 'I will disregard it; I will take it lightly, because it was YOUR choice to ignore my council!' (you may like to see Psa 2:4, Psa 37:13, Psa 59:8 & Deut 4:24).

From this it is clear that people have a "choice" about which way they will go in terms of their listening and acting. Mostly we find their lives are as a result of their choices. A fool is one by his own fault resulting in his own shame, not by fate as some here may believe (See verses Pro 1:30,31). Therefore Wisdom laughs at a fool's calamity, not because he/she is hard-hearted and cannot sympathize with human suffering, but because it is so ridiculous for people to knowingly and willing CHOOSE folly. The figure here of laughing reveals an absurdity that one would chose a foolish way of life and being totally unprepared for the disaster which follows.

Purity

williemac · May 28, 2013

justaname said:
Well technically there are two main answers to your question.

Arminianism-Foreknowledge God foreknew those who would have faith, so before the foundations of the word God chose these from the bunch.

Calvinism-Namesake or reprobation

From the Calvinist perspective we do have the Romans passage:
Romans 9:22-24
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

In either camp one must be "tweaked" from their original state of unbelief. Take the example of the child; how can that child ever come to faith if they never hear of God?

I hold to the notion that the gospel message itself is a miraculous divine instrument, used by God to move the unbeliever to belief. I believe the HolySpirit to be the acting agent in the message. I believe everyone who hears the message has been divinely appointed to hear the message. I also believe that those who do believe the message with a salvific faith have been preselected to believe before the foundations of the world. All of this aligns with scripture and I could post the correlating verses, yet that is probably better suited for a different thread.

So in other words, you have no interest in considering actually answering the question I posed to you. What you did was to recite some official positions that are taken by certain groups, positions that do not speak to the actual question that I asked. I thought as much. I have never seen an answer to this question. I have seen answers, but not to the question. The passage you quoted addressed God's motive for what He does. It does not address His method. It answers 'why', not 'how'.

But if this topic is better suited for another thread, then it would be better to not make it a part of your reasoning on this thread. Otherwise it will become fair game on this thread. And by the way, I have engaged others on this topic and have replied to all the passages they have used to support their conclusions. However, I have never seen a reply to my simple question. If people were pre selected as you say, then by what criteria did God pre select them?
Just to demonstrate how things get twisted in the minds of some who draw conclusions and then try to support them afterward...there is a difference between the words "select" and "elect". They may sound the same, but they are not the same. There is no passage that speaks of pre selection between the saved and lost. The passage you quoted says that the vessels of mercy were 'prepared beforehand for glory'. It in no way, shape, or form, suggests that God randomly or arbitrarily decided to save some and not others.

I don't think you would say that His so called pre selection was random or arbitrary. If that is the case, a thinking person would realize that there is only one alternative; That He knew something about the person. And this is foreknowledge, since the person had not yet been born. Did He foreknow who would have faith? Not necessarily. As I shared earlier, faith is not the criteria. Humility is the criteria. The bible says point blank that God gives grace to the humble. Jesus, in Luke 18:10-14, states that they who exalt themselves will be abased and they who humble themselves will be exalted. If the average Calvinist type chooses to ignore this criteria, then they are only fooling themselves. There is no "tweaking" suggested in this pattern laid out for us. Jesus meant what He said.

justaname · May 28, 2013

Purity said:
Justaname,

From your comments you believe then that Grace is conditional.

No actually you are the one stating grace is conditional because we first need to seek favor before it is bestowed upon us. This is evident through your depiction of Noah.

Purity said:
"None can doubt that we do seek the Lord, yet the question remains, why do we seek the Lord. Is it from our own accord? If the answer is yes, then we are to glory in ourselves for the decision made. If the answer is no, then all glory be to God on High for first seeking this unrepentant sinner!"

If many are called but few are chosen on what basis are they refused? We agree not all are called or drawn into the Son? We agree of those called some a sheep and some are goats?

Please answer this without falling on the foreknowledge of God as it is apparent He does not always act on His foreknowledge nor is He bound by it.

Enjoying our discussion thank you
Purity

They are refused because of unbelief.

Purity said:
Church,

Though I don't agree with all you have said...the later part of your post is a truth I have drawn to in my studies of the Scriptures. OSAS and Grace Alonist often use the foreknowledge of God as the basis for their argument. Its comparable to the assumption of Grace, but here one assumes because God knows something in the future he is bound to act by it. I believe the example of Judas is a great example.

Imagine if Christ gave up on Judas "because" the Scripture foretold of his betrayal; Jesus never ceased from extending an arm to him in the hope he would change. We know Scripture was fulfilled in that moment, however it does not mean at any given time Judas could have repented of his actions and remained in the fold.

OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine because it makes God the debtor to man and we know this is not truth.

Proverb 1 is another good reference in opposing OSAS

But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; (Pro 1:25-26)

In other words, 'I will disregard it; I will take it lightly, because it was YOUR choice to ignore my council!' (you may like to see Psa 2:4, Psa 37:13, Psa 59:8 & Deut 4:24).

From this it is clear that people have a "choice" about which way they will go in terms of their listening and acting. Mostly we find their lives are as a result of their choices. A fool is one by his own fault resulting in his own shame, not by fate as some here may believe (See verses Pro 1:30,31). Therefore Wisdom laughs at a fool's calamity, not because he/she is hard-hearted and cannot sympathize with human suffering, but because it is so ridiculous for people to knowingly and willing CHOOSE folly. The figure here of laughing reveals an absurdity that one would chose a foolish way of life and being totally unprepared for the disaster which follows.

Purity

I will not dispute people are a product of their choices in life. Yet this proverb is explaining people in general. You are attempting to apply this solely to the believer in Christ. We know the outcome of fools, and they do not follow God's council.

The believer follows God's council! The believer does the will of the Father. The believer walks in the Spirit.

Now your presupposition of Judas...
How do you know he would not have been treated like Pharaoh?

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

ChurchAuthority said:
Well, I read the link and it was simply yhe same perversions of Scripture in longer form.

When Jesus (who is GOD) rebuked Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34), He told them in no uncertain terms:
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

This is a prime example of FREE WILL.

Jerusalem was the City of God - His shining light, yet He allowed it to be destroyed and His holy Temple defiled and destroyed along with it. Do you actually think it was Gods will that Israel lose the faith and become like an unfaithful wife to Him? That His holy Temple be defiled by pagans and destroyed?

Your problem, as I have said before, is that you don't understand Biblical language. "Predestined" doesn't always mean that God coerced. "Foreknowledge" doesn't mean that God knew first or that He MADE something happen. It means that He ALWAYS knew.

You are still attempting to apply this verse to New Covenant believers. Again Jesus was referring to Jews under the Old Covenant. There is a reason the New Covenant was established, because the Law kills whereas the Spirit gives life.

To speak of Jerusalem lets go to the scriptures.

Amos 3:6-7

6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

God speaking to His disciples...

Matthew 24:2

2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

As far as your definition of foreknowledge, you only confirm the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. As you say God always knew those He is going to save.

williemac said:
So in other words, you have no interest in considering actually answering the question I posed to you. What you did was to recite some official positions that are taken by certain groups, positions that do not speak to the actual question that I asked. I thought as much. I have never seen an answer to this question. I have seen answers, but not to the question. The passage you quoted addressed God's motive for what He does. It does not address His method. It answers 'why', not 'how'.

But if this topic is better suited for another thread, then it would be better to not make it a part of your reasoning on this thread. Otherwise it will become fair game on this thread. And by the way, I have engaged others on this topic and have replied to all the passages they have used to support their conclusions. However, I have never seen a reply to my simple question. If people were pre selected as you say, then by what criteria did God pre select them?
Just to demonstrate how things get twisted in the minds of some who draw conclusions and then try to support them afterward...there is a difference between the words "select" and "elect". They may sound the same, but they are not the same. There is no passage that speaks of pre selection between the saved and lost. The passage you quoted says that the vessels of mercy were 'prepared beforehand for glory'. It in no way, shape, or form, suggests that God randomly or arbitrarily decided to save some and not others.

I don't think you would say that His so called pre selection was random or arbitrary. If that is the case, a thinking person would realize that there is only one alternative; That He knew something about the person. And this is foreknowledge, since the person had not yet been born. Did He foreknow who would have faith? Not necessarily. As I shared earlier, faith is not the criteria. Humility is the criteria. The bible says point blank that God gives grace to the humble. Jesus, in Luke 18:10-14, states that they who exalt themselves will be abased and they who humble themselves will be exalted. If the average Calvinist type chooses to ignore this criteria, then they are only fooling themselves. There is no "tweaking" suggested in this pattern laid out for us. Jesus meant what He said.

Now you here speak of method...

How does God do what an all powerful God does?

How does God do this?

Psalm 33:6-7

6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

Perhaps we should venture to answer this:

Job 38:4-7

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We can just as easily ask, "What was the criteria God used to place the stars in their exact position?" Or, "What criteria did God use to determine how many stripes the zebra should have?"

Let me answer with humility.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

You claim humility to be the answer to your question...
the answer could also be faith. To be sure, we are only attempting to infer by what we interpret from scripture. At the end of the day it is God who knows the answer to all of His methods and motives.

Ephesians 1:4

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

choose |CHo͞oz|
verb ( past chose |CHōz|; past participle chosen |ˈCHōzən| ) [ with obj. ]
pick out or select (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives: he chose a seat facing the door | [ no obj. ] : now it's my turn to choose.
• [ no obj. ] decide on a course of action, typically after rejecting alternatives: [ with infinitive ] : he chose to go | I'll stay as long as I choose.

Purity · May 28, 2013

No actually you are the one stating grace is conditional because we first need to seek favor before it is bestowed upon us. This is evident through your depiction of Noah.

They are refused because of unbelief.

Justaname
Are you suggesting the depiction of Noah is correct? The above is unclear.
Purity

justaname · May 29, 2013

Romans 2:11

11 For there is no partiality with God.

Acts 10:34-35

34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Hebrews 1:8-9

8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

Can you see how these scriptures agree? God is not partial, but He hates wickedness.

Grace is unmerited, but salvation is conditional on our faith. We do not earn grace, we receive it.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If you say that you must first seek God then you contradict every scripture that says God first sought us. Also you have added a work, because we must first seek God's grace before it is given.

Let the scriptures be true:
Matthew 7:7-8

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

But we must not misconstrue another text to allow truth.

Romans 3:9-12

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

Here speaking of those who are unbelievers...

Romans 1:28

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

So in this state of unbelief who but God can turn the heart of the wicked to repentance? Is it not God who chastises those He loves? Is it not the HolySpirit that convicts us of our sin?

If it is as you suppose then we are the ones who turned to God on our own accord, thereby we are the ones saving ourselves.

Scripture tells us though...
John 6:44-47

44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Purity · May 29, 2013

Grace is unmerited, but salvation is conditional on our faith. We do not earn grace, we receive it.

Can you see the problem with your process?

KingJ · May 29, 2013

justaname said:
I simply question if someone can thwart God's plan for sanctification in the life of the believer once He has started. (Philippians 1:6)

If Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity (1John 2:2), then what sin that I may commit will exclude me from salvation, excluding the whole "blaspheme the HolySpirt"?

How can anyone live up to God's holy standard? Lets keep in mind sins of omission, sins of pride, sins of vanity, impure thoughts, unwholesome words, and so on...

Where is the tipping point? Just when is salvation lost in the believer?

1 Tim 1:19. Shipwreck = knowingly steering yourself into an extreme storm = continue in an extremity of unrepentant sin.

Kind of like Jesus says only adultery (not lessor sins) is grounds for divorce.

justaname said:
Grace is unmerited, but salvation is conditional on our faith. We do not earn grace, we receive it.

This statement contradicts your statement near the top of this page:

I also believe that those who do believe the message with a salvific faith have been preselected to believe before the foundations of the world

If anyone was pre-selected to the extremity of 5point Calvinism...why are we placed on an evil earth and not in heaven like the angels were?

ChurchAuthority · May 29, 2013

justaname said:
You are still attempting to apply this verse to New Covenant believers. Again Jesus was referring to Jews under the Old Covenant. There is a reason the New Covenant was established, because the Law kills whereas the Spirit gives life.

To speak of Jerusalem lets go to the scriptures.

Amos 3:6-7

6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

God speaking to His disciples...

Matthew 24:2

2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

As far as your definition of foreknowledge, you only confirm the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. As you say God always knew those He is going to save.

This is about as absurd as it gets.
The fact that God always knew who would be saved does NOT support the false Calvinist doctrine of perseverence of the saints because Calvinism ALSO teaches the false doctrine of Double Predestination:

God made some people expressly for the purpose of going to heaven.
God made some people expressly for the purpose of going to hell.

this false doctrine renderes Almighty God as a hideous monster who forces some to accept His love and others to eternal agony. The Scriptures simply do not support this abomination.

As for your shifting the rules about Free will regarding Jerusalem - God didn't take awa free will in the New Covenant. this is a preposterous claim that has no validity in Scripture. As I have already shown - the Bible tells us that TRUE followers of Christ can indeed fall away and LOSE our salvation:

[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 7:19-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 10:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 24:13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 25:31–46[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]John 15:1-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rom. 11:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 4:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Tim. 4:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb. 3:6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb. 3:12-14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb.s 6:4-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb. 10:26-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 Pet.r 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 John 2:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 John 5:13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 3:5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]

williemac · May 29, 2013

justaname said:
Now you here speak of method...

How does God do what an all powerful God does?

How does God do this?

Psalm 33:6-7

6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

Perhaps we should venture to answer this:

Job 38:4-7

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We can just as easily ask, "What was the criteria God used to place the stars in their exact position?" Or, "What criteria did God use to determine how many stripes the zebra should have?"

Let me answer with humility.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

You claim humility to be the answer to your question...
the answer could also be faith. To be sure, we are only attempting to infer by what we interpret from scripture. At the end of the day it is God who knows the answer to all of His methods and motives.

Ephesians 1:4

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

choose |CHo͞oz|
verb ( past chose |CHōz|; past participle chosen |ˈCHōzən| ) [ with obj. ]
pick out or select (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives: he chose a seat facing the door | [ no obj. ] : now it's my turn to choose.
• [ no obj. ] decide on a course of action, typically after rejecting alternatives: [ with infinitive ] : he chose to go | I'll stay as long as I choose.

Yes, and I chose my wife as well. But does that mean she had no option in the relationship? Did she not respond? You are evading the question I am posing. Maybe not deliberately, but I assure you that you have not answered it. I was clear enough. I am asking what criteria God used to decide whether or not a particular person would be on His list of the elect or not on His list of the elect.
I gave you a passage to ponder, but I see that you have shown no attempt to address it or respond to it. I did not just guess humility to be the answer. What I did was to render my observation of a passage or two that speaks of humility as something that God responds to. He gives grace to the humble. It would be silly to respond by saying that He puts the humility into a person, and then responds to it. But then that is exactly what many say about faith; that He puts it into (some of) us, whomever He chooses to, and then responds to it. The bible does not say that. Man has contrived this idea. Faith comes by hearing. There is no "tweak". God is the master communicator. He insists that we humble ourselves (Luke18:10-14).

On the contrary, we have the ability to reason and respond to something we have heard. Faith is said to come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We hear many things, but if the word of God offers the free gift of life by way of the cross, and a person hears it, he has the option to respond to it. This is how God seeks man and not the other way around. He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, as though He is pleading through us to the world to be reconciled to Him. This is an almost word for word quote from 2Cor.5:19,20. He pleads for a response.

You see, all along, the bible has indeed answered the question that I am posing. I am sharing this answer for your benefit, but you will not receive it as long as you have made up your mind that you are right and I am wrong. I am open to correction from scripture. In fact, this is how I arrived at many doctrinal understandings. I was corrected.

God has judged sin in the body of Jesus, and thus has done His part to reconcile us to Him. He chose everyone. The sacrifice on the cross was for the sin of the world. Those whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, were those whom He foreknew as they who will respond to His pursuit. It is not just a man's answer to the subject. It is God's. I gave you the passages. Your choice to reject them is your problem. But I don't know how you can simply ignore the 2 Cor. reference I gave, and just reply that His ways are so high that we cannot comprehend them. He has not hidden His criteria.

justaname · Jun 3, 2013

Purity said:
Can you see the problem with your process?

No I do not, can you please elaborate?

KingJ said:
1 Tim 1:19. Shipwreck = knowingly steering yourself into an extreme storm = continue in an extremity of unrepentant sin.

Kind of like Jesus says only adultery (not lessor sins) is grounds for divorce.

This verse speaks of a handing over to satan so they may learn. It does not speak of permanence. In fact when looking at a similar passage in
1 Corinthians 5:5
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This statement contradicts your statement near the top of this page:

I do not see the contradiction.

If anyone was pre-selected to the extremity of 5point Calvinism...why are we placed on an evil earth and not in heaven like the angels were?

Who is speaking of 5 point Calvinism besides you?

This is about as absurd as it gets.
The fact that God always knew who would be saved does NOT support the false Calvinist doctrine of perseverence of the saints because Calvinism ALSO teaches the false doctrine of Double Predestination:

God made some people expressly for the purpose of going to heaven.
God made some people expressly for the purpose of going to hell.

this false doctrine renderes Almighty God as a hideous monster who forces some to accept His love and others to eternal agony. The Scriptures simply do not support this abomination.

As for your shifting the rules about Free will regarding Jerusalem - God didn't take awa free will in the New Covenant. this is a preposterous claim that has no validity in Scripture. As I have already shown - the Bible tells us that TRUE followers of Christ can indeed fall away and LOSE our salvation:

[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 7:19-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 10:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 24:13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matt. 25:31–46[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]John 15:1-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rom. 11:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 9:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Cor. 4:4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Tim. 4:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb. 3:6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb. 3:12-14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb.s 6:4-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heb. 10:26-27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 Pet.r 3:17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 John 2:24[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 John 5:13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 3:5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

You can speak all you desire of Calvinism, I am expounding on the truth of the perseverance of the saints.
As far as your free-will and Jerusalem argument, it is the Covenant that changed and the way it is enacted. No longer is it a suzerainty treaty, it is based on God's mercy and will.

williemac said:
Yes, and I chose my wife as well. But does that mean she had no option in the relationship? Did she not respond? You are evading the question I am posing. Maybe not deliberately, but I assure you that you have not answered it. I was clear enough. I am asking what criteria God used to decide whether or not a particular person would be on His list of the elect or not on His list of the elect.
I gave you a passage to ponder, but I see that you have shown no attempt to address it or respond to it. I did not just guess humility to be the answer. What I did was to render my observation of a passage or two that speaks of humility as something that God responds to. He gives grace to the humble. It would be silly to respond by saying that He puts the humility into a person, and then responds to it. But then that is exactly what many say about faith; that He puts it into (some of) us, whomever He chooses to, and then responds to it. The bible does not say that. Man has contrived this idea. Faith comes by hearing. There is no "tweak". God is the master communicator. He insists that we humble ourselves (Luke18:10-14).

On the contrary, we have the ability to reason and respond to something we have heard. Faith is said to come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We hear many things, but if the word of God offers the free gift of life by way of the cross, and a person hears it, he has the option to respond to it. This is how God seeks man and not the other way around. He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, as though He is pleading through us to the world to be reconciled to Him. This is an almost word for word quote from 2Cor.5:19,20. He pleads for a response.

You see, all along, the bible has indeed answered the question that I am posing. I am sharing this answer for your benefit, but you will not receive it as long as you have made up your mind that you are right and I am wrong. I am open to correction from scripture. In fact, this is how I arrived at many doctrinal understandings. I was corrected.

God has judged sin in the body of Jesus, and thus has done His part to reconcile us to Him. He chose everyone. The sacrifice on the cross was for the sin of the world. Those whom He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, were those whom He foreknew as they who will respond to His pursuit. It is not just a man's answer to the subject. It is God's. I gave you the passages. Your choice to reject them is your problem. But I don't know how you can simply ignore the 2 Cor. reference I gave, and just reply that His ways are so high that we cannot comprehend them. He has not hidden His criteria.

Yes, and just as God first chooses us, we do also respond to His choice. We are not robots or puppets extreme thinking may perceive.

Do you not believe God knows who the humble are and are not? Do you not believe God is the Creator of all things, including yourself? Do you not believe God chose before the foundations of the earth those He predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ?

Yes man has the capability of choice, and God is sovereign. This is called compatibility. Let me give an example.

Acts 4:27-28

27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

These evil men acted on their own accord to crucify our Lord, yet they were predestined to do it. They are culpable for their actions, even though the cross was that Father's plan. And how do we know they acted on their own accord?

1 Corinthians 2:7-8

7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

When it comes to God responding to humility, no one is denying the fact God exults the humble. Yet to say God waits to see if you are going to respond with humility to the gospel is saying there is the condition of humility over faith, and that is not the gospel.

Purity · Jun 4, 2013

justaname said:
No I do not, can you please elaborate?

Greetings once again Justaname,

Can I draw your attention to Acts 2:42?

Acts 2:42ESV
Acts 2:42KJV
Acts 2:42NET
Acts 2:42NASB

Have you ever notice how the number 5 is often associated with grace? Rather beautiful really.

Can you see how Grace is working in this verse Acts 2:42? But notice "how" its working? And on what basis this work of salvation is carried out. Can you see the condition of this Grace subtly applied to the verse. Don't just read it quickly and dismiss its hidden wisdom...you must meditate upon it to see it beauty.

Let me know how you go.

Purity

justaname · Jun 4, 2013

Acts 2:46-47

46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Is this what you mean by this?

Purity · Jun 4, 2013

justaname said:
Acts 2:46-47

46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Is this what you mean by this?

Hi Justaname,

I was referring the Acts 2:42KJV - did you notice how there are five elements to this verse?

List them if you will.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Then explain out of these which are reliant on a secondary participant?

justaname · Jun 5, 2013

Purity said:
Hi Justaname,

I was referring the Acts 2:42KJV - did you notice how there are five elements to this verse?

List them if you will.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Then explain out of these which are reliant on a secondary participant?

I can appreciate what you are intending with your application of the verse, yet in this case we must look to the context for the validity of what you are attempting to apply.

The Ingathering
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!”
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Verse 42 is only a continuation of a greater context, which if we were to follow your logic of what you attempt to apply...

43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

So in truth contextually there is actually more than five things that must be lifted to agree with your application, not just cherry picking from one verse.

Purity · Jun 5, 2013

Purity said:
Hi Justaname,

I was referring the Acts 2:42KJV - did you notice how there are five elements to this verse?

List them if you will.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Then explain out of these which are reliant on a secondary participant?

For the benefit of others we shall proceed.

Lets consider the first element of God's Grace in the believer:- Acts 2:42KJV; Acts 2:42YLT; Acts 2:42ESV; Acts 2:42NASB; Acts 2:42ASV

1. Continued stedfastly

The first feature of true worship is placed squarely upfront and reveals the attitude and devotion of its participants. OSAS and Grace Alonist's rarely consider themselves or their part in the work of salvation, this is mainly due to the responsibility of "continuing stedfast" and the certain labours required on their part to do so.

The Greek word proskarterountes means "to receive fully; to be earnest towards." There was a wholehearted response to the call of the Truth, and faithful continuance in well-doing. They readily received the way of discipleship, without reserve. Paul urges believers to maintain this characteristic by "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching" (Heb 10:25).

Continuing stedfastly is achievable by all Christians today but not all Christians understand precisely what they need to stand steadfastly in!

Is it the doctrine of "Once saved always saved", is this the calling of the Gospel? A man made intellectual doctrine devised to satisfy the conscience that one is guaranteed salvation?
Is it to live a sinful life relying on the Grace of God presumptuously?

Justaname would not go "into" this verse and for good reason, to do so one must allow these man-made teachings to fall to the ground.

Maybe as we progress this will become even more apparent.

Purity

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 6, 2013

Purity said:
Justaname would not go "into" this verse and for good reason, to do so one must allow these man-made teachings to fall to the ground

Consider the possibility that he didn't go into it for the same reason I didn't go into it. I knew immediately what you were seeing, but didn't touch it because your methodology of question-baiting gets quite tiresome and annoying. Why not just openly state what you believe instead of playing the game of 'teacher asks question, patiently waits for student's response'? It's impossible (for me) to have any kind of productive discussion with that kind of attitude.

justaname · Jun 6, 2013

Purity said:
For the benefit of others we shall proceed.

Lets consider the first element of God's Grace in the believer:- Acts 2:42KJV; Acts 2:42YLT; Acts 2:42ESV; Acts 2:42NASB; Acts 2:42ASV

1. Continued stedfastly

The first feature of true worship is placed squarely upfront and reveals the attitude and devotion of its participants. OSAS and Grace Alonist's rarely consider themselves or their part in the work of salvation, this is mainly due to the responsibility of "continuing stedfast" and the certain labours required on their part to do so.

I find this an interesting statement. It is what I would call an incorrect gross generalization. It reeks of bigotry.

Truly these aforementioned doctrines speak as God as the acting agent in salvation and perseverance. I do not know anyone who believes in this doctrine that would not also agree that sanctification is a synergistic process. We simply assert that this synergistic process is maintained by God and not ourselves.

Supporting Scripture:
Psalm 37:23
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord:
And he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down:
For the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

This one scripture alone provides a mountain of information that speaks to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. To be true, one clear scripture like this is all that is needed to support this doctrine, yet I have provided many more...

It seems some still want to rely on self righteousness, as opposed to God's righteousness.

Purity said:
The Greek word proskarterountes means "to receive fully; to be earnest towards." There was a wholehearted response to the call of the Truth, and faithful continuance in well-doing. They readily received the way of discipleship, without reserve. Paul urges believers to maintain this characteristic by "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching" (Heb 10:25).

Continuing stedfastly is achievable by all Christians today but not all Christians understand precisely what they need to stand steadfastly in!

Is it the doctrine of "Once saved always saved", is this the calling of the Gospel? A man made intellectual doctrine devised to satisfy the conscience that one is guaranteed salvation?
Is it to live a sinful life relying on the Grace of God presumptuously?

Now we have a different attack of bigotry here. No one I know that believes in these aforementioned doctrines would teach to live a life of sin, yet most would admit sin is still present in their lives, even as they abhor it. I am quite sure that every saint is relying on the grace of God, and none are in a complete state of sinlessness, bar those present with the Lord. So what is it that you actually mean by living a sinful life?

To speak a bit of God's grace all of humanity are guilty of sin, reserve One. Thereby it is only by God's grace and mercy that we are even alive today.

Purity said:
Justaname would not go "into" this verse and for good reason, to do so one must allow these man-made teachings to fall to the ground.

Maybe as we progress this will become even more apparent.

Purity

From my perspective I have used scripture to support the doctrine I present. You have not, thereby your teachings are much further apparent to be "man-made."

The one scripture you are extrapolating tells nothing of someone "losing their salvation", it only explains what those in the early church did. Nowhere in the context of the verse does it say anything they did is mandatory for maintaining salvation, although only a fool would argue that saints do not practice these activities.

Here is another supporting scripture to this beloved doctrine:

Psalm 37:28
28 For the Lord loveth judgment,
And forsaketh not his saints;
They are preserved for ever:
But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

So from this passage do you gather that the Lord is the one preserving the saints, or are they preserving themselves? Remember it is God who chose them first, it is God who put His Spirit in them, it is God who gave them a new heart, it is God who orders their steps, it is God who upholds them... need I go on? His word says they are preserved forever, and you say different? Who has the man made doctrine?

John S · Jun 6, 2013

Once Saved - Always Saved - Even if a person gambles too much, drinks too much, spends too much time at the less savory parts of the internet, ogles the 16-year old babysitter too much, or many of the other activities that God might find offensive.
Once Saved - Always Saved means that WE have decided who will go to Heaven or Hell and who will not. WE are equal to God in determining these things.
I'm Sorry but I would think that God would find this kind of thinking as HIGHLY offensive - but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe He doesn't have a problem with it after all.

I'm NOT His equal. I don't decide whether I'm going to Heaven or not. I will leave that up to God to decide.

Purity · Jun 6, 2013

John S said:
Once Saved - Always Saved - Even if a person gambles too much, drinks too much, spends too much time at the less savory parts of the internet, ogles the 16-year old babysitter too much, or many of the other activities that God might find offensive.
Once Saved - Always Saved means that WE have decided who will go to Heaven or Hell and who will not. WE are equal to God in determining these things.
I'm Sorry but I would think that God would find this kind of thinking as HIGHLY offensive - but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe He doesn't have a problem with it after all.

I'm NOT His equal. I don't decide whether I'm going to Heaven or not. I will leave that up to God to decide.

Wise!

Though heaven is not the reward of the saints.

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Consider the possibility that he didn't go into it for the same reason I didn't go into it. I knew immediately what you were seeing, but didn't touch it because your methodology of question-baiting gets quite tiresome and annoying. Why not just openly state what you believe instead of playing the game of 'teacher asks question, patiently waits for student's response'? It's impossible (for me) to have any kind of productive discussion with that kind of attitude.

Hi CRFTD

The technique of asking questions is integral to one gaining an understanding of a matter. The Apostle Paul uses this technique extensively throughout most of his writings to help the reader engage with the subject.

Here is a section in Romans 8 a well known much loved passage.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

5 verses 6 questions.

Some questions you will find are closed questions, you know "yes or no", while others are open questions; they require a statement in response.

Has this comment originated from our other discussion where numerous Scriptures were posted to state a single truth and yet you continue in your resistance to that truth?

Purity

justaname said:
It reeks of bigotry.

Another disappointing spirit manifested.

Lets look at number 2.

The second element was the upholding of true and wholesome teaching. Gr. didache: instruction; thus, teaching. To "continue steadfast" without the important basis of understanding, would be thus of little value. There are many communities that manifest a zealousness for activity, but lack a true understanding. As such they are no different from the Jewish community, who "have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Rom 10:2). The "apostles' doctrine" is that based upon the outline of salvation given in Acts 2:14-36.

Rom 10:2KJV
Rom 10:2ESV
Rom 10:2YLT
Rom 10:2NET

Therefore Salvation in relation to OSAS will be "conditional" upon the continuing in the Apostles doctrine.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 6, 2013

Purity said:
Has this comment originated from our other discussion where numerous Scriptures were posted to state a single truth and yet you continue in your resistance to that truth?

No, frankly I got bored.

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