To which the Master responds "Search the Scripture's...." ask him to increase your apatite for labouring in the doctrine as 1 Tim 5:17KJV.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The Word of God is a delight to my soul may it be to yours also.
Purity
The Doctrine of OSAS
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The Word of God is a delight to my soul may it be to yours also.
Purity
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John S,John S said:
Salvation is not conditional on sin, rather on faith and God's mercy. God finds vanity offensive, pride is offensive to God, and so are many other things humanity harbors. This is why we need a Savior, because we are incapable. Is it we are saved by our actions, or by God's actions?
No one is claiming equality with God, only that God's promises are true!
Psalm 37:23-24
23 The steps of a man are established by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
24 When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong,
Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand.
Perhaps you do not believe this verse...
Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Ok that one may not be clear enough.
Ephesians 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
This might explain it better.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Maybe Jesus is more convincing...
John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Or perhaps...
John 10:29
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
To look a bit at the last verse... The sheep follow the Good Shepard. Only His sheep are saved. Those He saves have their salvation decided before the foundations of the world. These do abhor sin. These do continue to the end. These abide in Christ, because this is the will of the Father that is working, and Jesus will lose nothing.
So the outline given shows this...Purity said:
Acts 2:17
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
Acts 2:21
21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Acts 25-27
25 “For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
Acts 32-33
32 “This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Here again it says God is the one who saves, not that we save ourselves.
Again I do not disagree that impropre belief does not achieve salvation... But those who are saved, are being saved, and will be saved do not have improper belief, nor do they have improper teaching, and they continue to the end because it is God purposing their salvation.
Is this the teaching being defender here in this thread?justaname said:
Therefore you agree with the statement - salvation is conditional upon one continuing in the Apostles Doctrine and this is contingent upon the believer.
If it were not you would make God a respecter of persons.
God alone is not purposing their salvation - you fail to recall the lessons of Acts 2:42KJV
But thank you for your post.
Phil 2:12KJV
Phil 2:12ESV
Phil 2:12NET
Phil 2:12YLT
Purity
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I am not sure what you mean by this.Purity said:
No I am stating that it is the gospel given by the apostles that one must believe. Those that are being saved will continue in this belief and God keeps those He purposes in saving.Purity said:
When speaking of respecter of persons, one must look at the context of the verse intended. God is impartial when it comes to genetic or social differences within humanity. In other words, male or female, negro or mongoloid, rich or poor, free or slave, Jew or Gentile, makes no difference.Purity said:
Yet God takes no pleasure in the wicked and is not purposing to save them. God is only saving those who confess and believe Jesus Christ the risen Lord. This does not make God a respecter of persons.
Acts 2:42 speaks nothing of salvation, only your eisegesis does.Purity said:
With the Philippians verse it is best to complete the author's intent...
Philippians 2:12-13
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
This verse tends to support this wonderful doctrine. It is God's will or purpose at work in us.
justaname said:
I think this comment above is partly true and partly false.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9NET
2 Peter 3:9ESV
2 Peter 3:9YLT
2 Peter 3:9NASB
The anxious feeling of Yahweh for the salvation of His people is expressed in the beautiful words of the prophet: "In all their affliction He was afflicted . .." (Isa 63:8-9).
To know Him is to understand His careful attention that not one righteous child should perish is illustrated by the parable of the wheat and the tares. The householder is represented as giving instruction that care must be exercised "lest while ye gather up the tares ye root up also the wheat with them" (Mat 13:29). To know Him is also to understand it is more important to save the righteous than to condemn the wicked. Note the word "willing" as "wishing."? It is God's desire that all may be saved, not His inexorable will that they shall be. He has provided adequately for all needs (John 3:16)...but few avail themselves of His offer.
Purity
Justaname - Salvation is NOT conditional.
So, as long as a "saved" person believes in Jesus Christ, that person can commit a major sin like murder, rape, or anything else that God might find offensive, and that person is STILL "saved" just be claiming his belief in Jesus Christ.
I tend to doubt that God would be THAT lenient.
I'll leave it up to God to decide where my soul will be going. I would NEVER be so presumptuous to believe that I can determine my own fate. I disagree with the whole concept of thinking that God WANTS me to consider myself to be equal to Him. I'd also like to believe that He doesn't take too kindly to humans having this belief.
So, as long as a "saved" person believes in Jesus Christ, that person can commit a major sin like murder, rape, or anything else that God might find offensive, and that person is STILL "saved" just be claiming his belief in Jesus Christ.
I tend to doubt that God would be THAT lenient.
I'll leave it up to God to decide where my soul will be going. I would NEVER be so presumptuous to believe that I can determine my own fate. I disagree with the whole concept of thinking that God WANTS me to consider myself to be equal to Him. I'd also like to believe that He doesn't take too kindly to humans having this belief.
John S said:
That teaching you are alluding to is no different than teaching that "you can sin and not surely die."
These people dress this "saved in rebellion" doctrine in Biblical terminology to give it an aura of authenticity.
If one is teaching that one can indeed commit an act of murder or an act of rape and remain "saved" at the very same time then the salvation they believe in is clearly purely of a positional or abstract nature.
Thus they believe that salvation have NOTHING to do with the heart being made pure. Instead salvation has been twisted into a cloak for iniquity. Under this mindset salvation is merely a book keeping entry totally devoid of the power of God. Whilst it may be dressed in a "form of godliness" it totally "denies the power" and thus leaves those who are converted under it still in a wretched condition.
You'll rarely get an answer from these people if you ask them about heart purity and how it relates to the new birth and salvation. If they do address the issue they have to speak against the heart being made pure in actuality for a pure heart will never produce an act of murder or rape. Which is why these people will draw upon isolated passages of scripture which they think prove the ongoing filthiness within the heart of a true believer of Christ.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
If heart purity is stripped from salvation then salvation is but an empty notion devoid of value.
I view the whole OSAS debate as foolishness and as an "opposition of knowledge falsely so called."Purity said:
The reason I say this is because on both the for and against sides (with very few exceptions) "salvation" is viewed as forensic or positional in nature.
If we are set free indeed (Joh 8:36) through abiding obediently in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) whereby we are set free from serving sin in order to serve righteousness (Rom 6:17-18) whereby we diligently add to our faith (2Pet 1:5) as we patiently continue to do good (Rom 2:7) growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2Pet 3:18) and if eternal life is rewarded to those who thus sow steadfastly to the Spirit (Gal 6:8-9, Rev 22:10) being doers of righteousness (Rev 22:11, 1Joh 3:7) then how on earth is it that people argue in favour of the fruits of rebellion IN salvation?
What do all these people who believe that one "can sin and not surely die" think they are actually saved from? Just the consequences of their iniquity? What foolishness.
Jesus Christ came to solve the problem of sin at the very root which is within the heart of a man. The blood of Christ and His doctrine address the root cause of sin which is iniquity within the heart. It is an utter perversion to treat the blood and doctrine of Christ as a cloak for an ongoing state of defilement.
Thus to participate in the OSAS debate from within the paradigm of that which it is often presented is utterly fallacious in my opinion. These dangerous errors have to rooted out at the source and exposed to the light of truth. It is when all the fluff is stripped away that one can see who is speaking the words of Satan and who is not.
Thus I like to ask, "can you sin and not surely die?" Or to make it clearer, "can you willfully commit an act of rebellion against God (ie. do wrong with full knowledge) and remain in a justified state?"
Such questions get to the root of the matter.
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Let me end this here.John S said:
This is taken from the OP.
Please do not be fooled into thinking that hollow or empty confessions of faith are redemptive, (Matthew 7:21) or that a life of faith allows lawlessness. (Romans 6:1-2) These are not on the path of salvation.
What you speak of is what saved people don't do, yet again salvation has to do with faith not works.
Again taken from the post #1ScottAU said:
Please do not be fooled into thinking that hollow or empty confessions of faith are redemptive, (Matthew 7:21) or that a life of faith allows lawlessness. (Romans 6:1-2) These are not on the path of salvation.
Now let me ask you, how long have you been in a state of sinlessness? This is what you are presenting is it not, sinlessness? And if you are not saying you live a life completely devoid of sin, just what is it you are asking?
1John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Revelation 22:11Purity said:
11 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Psalm 45:7
7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.
Psalm 145:19-21
19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him;
He will also hear their cry and will save them.
20 The Lord keeps all who love Him,
But all the wicked He will destroy.
21 My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord,
And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.
The Lord does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, and desires that they turn from their evil ways, yet He practices justice.
I find this verse interesting, and would like to add it to our discussion.
Isaiah 63:17
17 Why, O Lord, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Is there any comment anyone would like to add in accordance with this scripture?
Justaname - You SAID that salvation is NOT conditional on sin. So where is the line drawn? What is redemptive sin and what is not - and HOW do you know which is redemptive and what is not?
Apparently, murder and rape are not redemptive but what about spending many hours on porn sites? Is that redemptive - or drinking too much - or gambling - or checking out teenaged girls if you are an adult?
I sin, you sin, we all sin. Where are the lines drawn for redemptive and non-redemptive sin?
Apparently, murder and rape are not redemptive but what about spending many hours on porn sites? Is that redemptive - or drinking too much - or gambling - or checking out teenaged girls if you are an adult?
I sin, you sin, we all sin. Where are the lines drawn for redemptive and non-redemptive sin?
Justaname
Now let me ask you, how long have you been in a state of sinlessness? This is what you are presenting is it not, sinlessness? And if you are not saying you live a life completely devoid of sin, just what is it you are asking?
Firstly there is a distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."
"Sin unto death" is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16) therefore the "sinlessness" of a genuine Christian is within the context of there being no rebellion to God. So while we may err in judgment and thus miss the mark (sin so to speak) such an action is not rooted in iniquity in the heart. A genuine Christian has had their heart purified by faith (Act 15:9) via obedience to the truth by the Spirit (1Pet 1:22) having been purged of sin by the blood of Christ (Heb 9:14).
Thus there is no possible way that a genuine Christian can be engaged in acts of murder, rape, pornography viewing, cheating, etc. Anyone who is engaged in that sort of activity must forsake it and return to God lest they die in their sins. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience etc. Love does not delight in evil.
Justaname
What you speak of is what saved people don't do, yet again salvation has to do with faith not works.
Salvation is of a WORKING FAITH.
Faith IS a work (1Th 1:3).
Faith WORKS by love (Gal 5:6).
Love fulfills the law (Gal 5:14).
Thus any individual with a genuine saving faith will be accessing the grace of God (Rom 5:2) whereby they walk in the light as He is in the light. They won't be producing the fruit of unrighteousness in their lives.
Salvation is from sin, not in sin.
Now let me ask you, how long have you been in a state of sinlessness? This is what you are presenting is it not, sinlessness? And if you are not saying you live a life completely devoid of sin, just what is it you are asking?
Firstly there is a distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."
"Sin unto death" is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16) therefore the "sinlessness" of a genuine Christian is within the context of there being no rebellion to God. So while we may err in judgment and thus miss the mark (sin so to speak) such an action is not rooted in iniquity in the heart. A genuine Christian has had their heart purified by faith (Act 15:9) via obedience to the truth by the Spirit (1Pet 1:22) having been purged of sin by the blood of Christ (Heb 9:14).
Thus there is no possible way that a genuine Christian can be engaged in acts of murder, rape, pornography viewing, cheating, etc. Anyone who is engaged in that sort of activity must forsake it and return to God lest they die in their sins. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience etc. Love does not delight in evil.
Justaname
What you speak of is what saved people don't do, yet again salvation has to do with faith not works.
Salvation is of a WORKING FAITH.
Faith IS a work (1Th 1:3).
Faith WORKS by love (Gal 5:6).
Love fulfills the law (Gal 5:14).
Thus any individual with a genuine saving faith will be accessing the grace of God (Rom 5:2) whereby they walk in the light as He is in the light. They won't be producing the fruit of unrighteousness in their lives.
Salvation is from sin, not in sin.
Scott, were the children of Israel saved out Egypt in their sins, or were they saved from their sin in Egypt?ScottAU said:
Out of Egypt in their sins...purely because of His promise to Abraham.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
But what does it matter? The big lesson to be learnt from the Jews is how their sins got them killed in the desert after God did all He could for them.
It matters because Scott promotes a false teaching that people cannot be saved from the bondage of sin in their sinful condition.KingJ said:
From what I read.... he is saying that we can be saved in our sinful state... but once saved we lose our desire to sin.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I am surprised that you specifically oppose him (only because I respect your beliefs and find nothing wrong with Scotts posts here
). Do you believe in OSAS?There's only ONE group written about in God's Holy Writ that the OSAS doctrine could ever apply to, God's chosen sent elect servants, the pattern being that of Christ's Apostles, the prophets, and patriarchs. The reason why only those... would apply is because The Father gave those to Christ (per John 17). They belonged to the Father, and He gave them to Christ, as they were chosen before the foundation of the world. Thus He already... owns these, and will direct them according to His Will.
The rest of us who came to believe through their word are 'called' only, and we who are called only can... fall away from Christ IF WE allow it, meaning OSAS cannot apply to us who are called only. It's that simple. When Paul was speaking of those who are already justified, glorified, and sanctified, he wasn't speaking that about believers that fall away from Christ Jesus.
We will be tried, but hold to the Faith in Christ Jesus above all.
The rest of us who came to believe through their word are 'called' only, and we who are called only can... fall away from Christ IF WE allow it, meaning OSAS cannot apply to us who are called only. It's that simple. When Paul was speaking of those who are already justified, glorified, and sanctified, he wasn't speaking that about believers that fall away from Christ Jesus.
We will be tried, but hold to the Faith in Christ Jesus above all.
OSAS if one keeps the faith until the end. If and only if.KingJ said:From what I read.... he is saying that we can be saved in our sinful state... but once saved we lose our desire to sin.
I am surprised that you specifically oppose him (only because I respect your beliefs and find nothing wrong with Scotts posts here
Scott teaches that people do not have a sinful nature, and that Christ's sacrifice only pertains to one's past sins before repentance. Once saved, if a person sins, there is no more sacrifice for that sin and the person must beg and hope that the lord forgives him. He does not believe that the blood of Christ abides continually on the mercy seat covering our sin, contrary to the plain witness of scripture. His doctrine is a sick, sick perversion of the good news, and is antichrist.
The OSAS doctrine from men is a devil's doctrine. Apostle Paul plainly stated that our baptism and repentance at that time is for sins past. That means for sins committed in the future we STILL... have to seek Christ's forgiveness, each time. That was Apostle John's Message in 1 John 1 also.
The ones who are sick are those preach that once you have believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized in His Name then you can do no more sin, well those are liars, and they make Christ Jesus a liar with their false teaching.
The ones who are sick are those preach that once you have believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized in His Name then you can do no more sin, well those are liars, and they make Christ Jesus a liar with their false teaching.
That passage you are referring to is Roman's 3:25, which states that the former penalties of sin that occurred before the cross are now being passed over through the blood of the lamb. It is not referring to an individual's past sins. The cross is the focal point, not the believer's initial repentance. After baptism, we have to repent for restoration of fellowship, not restoration of familial position.veteran said:
Ok, thanks. I agree!ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Sorry to drag this out but Scott mentions extreme sins like Paul does in 1 Cor 6:9. Scott said: ''Thus there is no possible way that a genuine Christian can be engaged in acts of murder, rape, pornography viewing, cheating, etc''.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That is true. A Christian will not be unrepentant in these extreme sins. Sure we cannot preach 1 Cor 6:9 without Matt 18:21. But the moment we continue in any extreme sin / inner rebellion we should be nervous as true repentance becomes impossible. That would be losing our faith as you said. Or how else do we lose our faith?
Well I agree that we should be very concerned about not doing things that can harden our hearts and make us fall away, or that might cause us to deny the lord.KingJ said:
