veteran said:
Actually, I have covered the harmonizing you speak of, many times. It's why I (and others) keep quoting the 1 John 1 Scripture.
Let's break it down line upon line now...
I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
John was not speaking to non-believers here, but to the Church. Note the word "If" he used. That's a conditional word to show one or more routes. Here he covered the condition of walking in darness while saying it's fellowship with Christ. That means to deceive oneself.
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Then John gives the other condition, the other "if", and it's about walking in the light, as He is in the light, which is to fellowship with Him. Only from this kind walk does His Blood shed for us on the cross cleanse us from all sin. Now John is going to tell us more about the difference between these two conditions.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Here come the 'if's again. If we say we do not still sin at times, falling short of God's glory (for that is John's idea here), then we only deceive ourselves. Why? Because in the flesh there can be ONLY ONE Saviour Who was without sin, i.e, our Lord Jesus Christ. While we are yet in the flesh, we ever will be falling short of God's Glory. And that's the most important... truth to understand about this, since Satan's temptation is to try and make us think we can be perfect as gods in this flesh.
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply...and if I did indeed miss those passages before, then I appreciate you repeating them for me.
Now...as to these 1 John passages. I'm afraid I cannot see how the link to the assurance eternal salvation, or the lack of it. Bear with me a minute:
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:6-10)
This is not a warning that we can loose our salvation...this is talking about people who claim to be saved, but clearly are not. Note the comparisons....those who SAY they are Christians, but have no or bad fruit, clearly are not. Where as those who ARE saved, walk in the light. Consider these other passages that talk about being in darkness. They are talking of those who are NOT saved.
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (1 John 2:11, ESV)
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14, ESV)
Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), (Ephesians 5:7-9, ESV)
Now consider all that talks about a person being known by his 'fuit':
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:33-34, ESV)
So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:17-20, ESV)
The very fact that Christ and Paul thinks to warn us to 'know a person' by their fruit, is because of the many people that claim to be 'one of us', but are not, in fact, saved. Their fruit is bad, and the walk in darkness.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7:15-16, ESV)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23, ESV)
Our fruit reveals the state of our hearts. Good fruit does not lead to salvation, but the other way around. So it is with the passages in 1 John about being in the light.
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. (John 15:8, ESV)
If our hearts are true, we walk in the light, confessing our sins. If our hearts are not true, then we walk in darkness, making a liar out of him and we ourselves lie. Note the last part of the verse:
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1,4-5 ESV)
Men who walk in the darkness, do not have the Word (read Jesus) in them.
I suspect here is where you say: Yup, you just made my point...if you start to walk in darkness, Jesus in not in you and you are not saved.
But the problem with that is that this passage in no way gives us leave to assume that is what John is speaking of. In line with other bible passages (and what we see every day in Churches) we can say very easily that John is contrasting between those who have been saved, who are in the light and are bearing good fruit...and those who only say they are in the light, but are clearly not.
There is nothing in the passage, before it, or after it, that allows us to suppose this is talking about how we can actually be "un-reborn".
Does our Lord Jesus not know our struggle against sin? Does He not know that we will ever be falling short with this body of sin? Yes! He does know of our struggle here in this body of sin. And that's what the walk with Him is about, for by that walk we overcome sin through His Blood. What we could never do ourselves because of our on-going imperfections, He did for us upon His cross. But were we 'changed' then, given redeemed bodies with no sin, the spiritual bodies Apostle Paul spoke of? No, not yet. We have His Promise of redemption, but the body without sin is of the world to come, not of this present world we're in.
Now the method He gave us to stay in that walk with Him, even after we have slipped up because of the imperfections of our flesh...
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Even after having believed on Him and been baptized, confessing our future slip ups is very important because that's how we stay in the walk with Him. This is what holy communion with Him is about when we partake of the Lord's Supper. It's a time of introspection with Him, confessing our sins to Him and asking Him forgiveness. He knows we are going to fall short, and this He has provided for all His Church during this present time until His return and the redemption of our body.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)
With that last verse Apostle John seals the Message with a warning. It's because God obviously wants us to understand the difference of denying that we still sin vs. looking at ourselves to recognize when we slip up and admit we need to repent and ask Him forgiveness, and then get on with the work He gave us.
So how do we do this in the practical sense?
Well, I'm not a Catholic, so I certainly do not believe we have to go through an ordained priest everytime we slip up and need to repent (not that I'm against conversing with one who is ordained, I know a truly ordained one is going to tell me to pray and repent to our Father through His Son also). I go directly to The Father through His Son, in prayer. And boy, He well knows I ain't perfect and that I probably need to repent and ask Him forgiveness daily!
Something I can attest to personally, and I mean this strongly, especially for the times we're in today. When I recognize my sin and go to Him with it, asking forgiveness, then I'm usually given more understanding in His Word, especially if it's something I've been struggling to grasp. I feel that applies to whatever administration by The Holy Spirit given to each one of us and that we were called for. But when I'm in a bad mood, feeling down on this world and myself, and don't take it to Him, then the gifts start tapering off, and it's my own fault. We can willfully disconnect the spiritual 'bridge' with Him by not making our walk careful. That is why I have a problem with man's OSAS doctrines, because I know it can lead one to that disconnect with denying they still sin at times.
See...I think there is a huge chasm of misunderstanding here, because I don't disagree with what you've said above...but that doesn't mean I have to be against OSAS.
I agree that Jesus understands our struggles. I agree that we must confess our sins...not just 'at the beginning', but as we live, ongoing.
But this is not a case of 'keep confessing or loose your salvation'. No....it's for sanctification. If we live without confessing sin and stumbles, it hurts our walk with Jesus...one of the most precious things ever! The bible says the walk of sanctification is to bring us even closer to him, to make us more Christ like. It does not say that confessing and then not confessing jerks us from saved to unsaved all through our lives.
Most Christians I know are eager to walk with their Saviour, and feel it strongly when they feel their walk is slowly or even halting.
Lets see what the bible says about sanctification, because after our Justification (which is in that moment of redemption) it is what takes up our entire lives, right up until we die and recieve Glorification.
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:17-23, ESV)
For this is the will of God, your sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3a, ESV)
They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. (John 17:16-19, ESV)
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (Ephesians 5:25-26, ESV)
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, ESV)