The Doctrine of OSAS

justaname said:

Augustine was among the first to affirm this doctrine...perseverance of the saints...

Also I am not in disagreement. Those who are saved are those who endure to the end. Those who endure to the end are those who are saved.

God does not save, nor does He begin saving those who do not endure to the end...this is why one can not "lose their salvation".

Click to expand...

I found this quote from Augustine in an old book of mine:

Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you.

I thought Jesus came to save the whole world, Justaname. But the whole world will not come to Him.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Not He would not....but they would not.

Again, isn't God willing to save any who will come to Him?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...John 5:29 NIV, John 6:39 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

ATP said:

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...John 5:29 NIV, John 6:39 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

Click to expand...

I would say that it is quite obvious that it is the unrighteous who are held for punishment. But it is not up to me....or you or anyone else but Christ Himself...to judge whom these unrighteous ones might be.

"Bema seat"? Sorry, that's a new one on me. I shall have to Google that one. I'm pretty sure that term is not found in the Bible. Is it an OSAS thing?
I've heard of the Judgment Seat, of course....this is the Great White Throne of Revelation:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

justaname said:

Does God save those who go apostate?

Click to expand...

You mean, can they repent and be restored to His grace?
Can you tell me for sure who can, and who cannot be restored?
Have you ever read the Parable of The Prodigal Son?

Does God in His omniscience seal anyone He knows will go apostate with His Holy Spirit until redemption?

Click to expand...

Either God offers His salvation to all people everywhere...or He is a liar, Justaname.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved

Jesus....Who certainly ought to know....says that He was sent to save the entire world, and that "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish".

In His omniscience, I'm sure He knows Who is going to come to Him and Who isn't....obviously we are still here because we all haven't made it home yet. But knowing who will and will not come is not the same thing as pre-selecting anyone, Justaname.

More scriptures added. God is awesome..

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...John 5:29 NIV, John 6:39 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, 2 Tim 4:8 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

justaname said:

It's amazing that this discussion is still going on. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that teaches that one can lose salvation. Those who argue for it must draw inferences.

Click to expand...

Sure there are. However, my point stands. There isn't a single passage of Scripture that says what OSAS supporters claim. That doesn't even take into account that the doctrine has it's roots in Gnositcism.

justaname said:

I have never said God has not offered salvation to all. This is your straw-man.

You did not answer the questions.

Click to expand...

Honestly, you are as bad as some of your fanclub, Justaname. Did you actually read what I posted?

Does God save those who go apostate?

Click to expand...

Okay, let me explain myself more thoroughly on this one.
First of all, God has not invited me to sit on a committee to decide who is, and who is not saved. And I'm willing to bet my last Jesus fish bumper sticker that He hasn't invited you to sit on such a committee, either.
However, I believe that He has indicated that He will restore the wanderer (i.e. apostate) to His loving Grace.

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

The tale of the Prodigal Son is one of my very favorites:

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Does God save those who go apostate?
It seems that He does. If not, Jesus is a liar.
However, I would caution anyone who thinks that they can leave Him for a season and go indulge in sin, and then, when they are ready, come back and expect to be restored...I wouldn't recommend it.

It is written "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Does God in His omniscience seal anyone He knows will go apostate with His Holy Spirit until redemption?

Click to expand...

You want me to sit here and tell you what is in the Mind of God?
You don't expect much do you.

IN MY OPINION...and understand, that is all it is, is my opinion...much depends on the individual "apostate".
I believe that everyone who comes to Him receives the Holy Spirit. Which would mean that every one who comes to Him receives that seal. It seems to be kind of like the blood of the Paschal lamb that was put around the doorway of the Hebrew's homes...it protects those who follow Jesus.
However, there is a caveat. God can revoke that seal. Don't say that He can't...remember, nothing is impossible for Him.
He can also renew it, should He restore that wandering apostate to His loving Grace.

ATP said:

Hi Butch. Good to see you again. How can we lose our salvation when the seed of God remains in us forever..

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Click to expand...

Hi ATP,

None of these say salvation can't be lost. That idea comes from inference. Who does the seed remain in?

The Barrd said:

I would say that it is quite obvious that it is the unrighteous who are held for punishment. But it is not up to me....or you or anyone else but Christ Himself...to judge whom these unrighteous ones might be.

"Bema seat"? Sorry, that's a new one on me. I shall have to Google that one. I'm pretty sure that term is not found in the Bible. Is it an OSAS thing?
I've heard of the Judgment Seat, of course....this is the Great White Throne of Revelation:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Click to expand...

Google the Bema Seat of Christ and The Great White Throne Judgment. These are two different events. Beginning of 1,000 year reign is Bema and the end of 1,000 year reign is GWT. In 2 Cor 5:10 NIV, judgment seat is translated "béma" in Greek.

2 Cor 5:10 NIV For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Butch5 said:

Hi ATP,

None of these say salvation can't be lost. That idea comes from inference. Who does the seed remain in?

Click to expand...

Of course they don't Butch. Glad to have you back buddy.

What does the seed remain in? .....

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

You all are still on the milk.

ATP said:

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...John 5:29 NIV, John 6:39 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

Click to expand...

I Googled your Bema seat.
This is what I found:

The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge's purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm

And I have another question for you.
Who were Hymenaeus and Alexander?

ATP said:

What does the seed remain in? .....

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Click to expand...

Yet in that very same letter, John also says:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Contradiction, ATP?

The Barrd said:

I Googled your Bema seat.
This is what I found:

The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge's purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm

And I have another question for you.
Who were Hymenaeus and Alexander?

Click to expand...

Barrd, what is the Greek word for judgment seat in 2 Cor 5:10 NIV.
The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek silly.
Yes, we will receive rewards and crowns at the Bema seat before the 1,000 reign with Christ.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

The Barrd said:

Yet in that very same letter, John also says:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Contradiction, ATP?

Click to expand...

1 John 1:8-10 NIV is simply stating a fact about repentance. No, God is not contradictory.

ATP said:

You all are still on the milk.

Click to expand...

Really, ATP?
Then why does John....still in that same letter....also say:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Oh, and here is a very important warning:

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hear the Beloved Disciple:

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

There seems to be a bit more there in John's letter than you thought.

Also, he wrote two others that we have in our Bible. Have you read those?

The Barrd said:

Really, ATP?
Then why does John....still in that same letter....also say:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Oh, and here is a very important warning:

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hear the Beloved Disciple:

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

There seems to be a bit more there in John's letter than you thought.

Also, he wrote two others that we have in our Bible. Have you read those?

Click to expand...

Of course believers will keep his commandments Barrd...1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

John 13:34-35 NIV “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 NIV My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

John 15:17 NIV This is my command: Love each other.

Gal 5:6 NIV For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Gal 5:14 NIV For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

1 Tim 1:3-7 NIV As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 John 3:23 NIV And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21 NIV And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

2 John 1:5-6 NIV And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.