The Doctrine of OSAS

justaname said:

blasphemy |ˈblasfəmē|
noun (pl. blasphemies)
the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk: he was detained on charges of blasphemy | screaming incomprehensible blasphemies.

What the context of the verse that uses that phrase suggests is attributing Jesus' miracles to the work of the devil is blaspheming the Holy Spirit...

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Everyone knows that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the Unpardonable Sin (Matthew 12:31 KJV).

What everyone seems to ignore is that blasphemy is Biblically defined as (1) to claim the power to forgive sins (Luke 5:21 KJV), and (2) to "make thyself God" (John 10:33 KJV).

Comparing these verses, the only rightful conclusion of the matter is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is "making ourselves god in opposition to the Holy Spirit" - which is the Unpardonable Sin because anyone who does that is no longer capable of receiving pardon because he is incapable of seeking pardon.

ATP said:

They withered and died because they had no root Phone...Matt 13:6 NIV But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

Sanctification is the ongoing process..believing and justification only comes once..Rom 10:9-10 NIV. They became disconnected from the Vine because of unbelief Phone...The unpardonable sin is a nonbeliever remaining in their unbelief. What does "enter my rest" mean here..."For we who have believed enter that rest"...

Rom 11:20 NIV Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Rom 11:23 NIV And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Heb 3:16-19 NIV Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Heb 4:3 ESV For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.


..is about nonbelievers.

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The same verse that says they had no root also says they "rejoiced" and "believed" for a time. These which you claim are "non-believers" must have been the stupidest pagans in all of history, rejoicing and believing in a kingdom where their supersonic sexual licentious pagan worship will never be practiced.

If Christians pay attention to what Jesus has to say, there is not going to any confusion nor chaos.

Jesus is the center and Teacher of salvation, after all.

Jesus is the Lord, everyone.

justaname said:

I know a man that was a "Christian" since a child. During a conversation he said, "You don't actually believe this stuff do you? I just come here because I know all these people and I like singing the songs." Eventually he left the faith.

This person does not fit your paradigm. It seems to me you are closed minded on this subject because you did not address any of my post rather just dismissed it as illogical.

Let's look at Martain Luther. Certainly the Roman Catholic Church can say he left the faith, yet would you argue he lost his salvation also? Along with apostate I am certain he was labeled anathema if not on paper at least by members.

To say someone left the faith does not automatically mean they were a part of God's plan of salvation. It is illogical for an omniscient God to attempt or begin to save someone He knows will go apostate.

Finally does the definition of apostate tell you what a person believes in their heart as opposed to possessing intellectual knowledge?

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A casual observation, here...you've chosen a couple of examples out of thousands...and neither of them would really count as having left the faith, meaning Christianity. You're first guy freely admitted that he had never believed in it, he was there because he knew all the people and he liked singing the songs. And Martin Luther may have left Catholicism, but he certainly did not leave Christianity/

In other words, those examples prove nothing....zilch.

And again, you have not considered that God gave man free will. God obviously does not direct every move we make, or every thought we have...you only have to pick up a newspaper to figure that out. Unless you think God likes watching rape, murder, child molesting, abortion, prostitution, homosexual marriages, domestic violence, drug abuse, gang wars, school shootings...and that's just the tip of the iceberg....let's not leave out wars and rumors of wars, or the fact that even as we speak God's people around the world are facing severe persecution for their faith...oh, the list is a long one. God does not intervene...why? I've lost track of the number of times I've been asked that question. Do you have an answer?

But I digress. The fact is that God gives us free will. And if we have free will, we are free to leave our faith.

This idea that you have that God "attempts to save" someone is totally "out there". My Bible says that Jesus came to save the entire world. The death He died for sin was for everyone. There is no "attempt to save"...it is a done deal. Everyone in the entire world is saved. The only question is, will they accept that salvation for themselves...and that is where free will comes in.

And finally, unless you are God, you cannot possibly know what someone believes in their heart. You are making an assumption, based on your own logic. But you have forgotten....God's ways are not man's ways. If someone says that there was a time when they believed in the gospel with all of their heart, then who are you to say that they did not? And we both know that there have been hundreds...perhaps even thousands...of people in our modern times who claim that they once had faith, but due to circumstances, they have changed their mind. I told you before....I've lost track of the number of atheists I've spoken with who claim that they once had faith, and that it was a deep, and heart-felt faith....but they left that faith. So many of them say that they became convinced that science has disproven what they call "the God of the gaps", believing instead in random fate. The theory of evolution has been a huge factor...they think that either Genesis is true, or evolution is true, but not both. They think that they are being very "logical"...

Hmmm....where have I heard that word before?

Phoneman777 said:

The same verse that says they had no root also says they "rejoiced" and "believed" for a time. These which you claim are "non-believers" must have been the stupidest pagans in all of history, rejoicing and believing in a kingdom where their supersonic sexual licentious pagan worship will never be practiced.

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Aah, PM....you're good! Your patience is nothing short of amazing, my good friend.

When I grow up, I wanna be just like you....

justaname said:

Amen!

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. - John 5:24

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Why does Jesus tell us that it is those who endure to the end who will be saved?
Could it be because there will be some who will not endure to the end?

justaname said:

Are we supposed to believe everything someone says just because they say it even when their actions are saying the exact opposite?

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Unless you can prove that their actions during the time that they were Christians prove that they were not, you have no case.
And remember...even the most devout Christian sins. If we say that we have no sin, we make God a liar...for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

By the way....did you intend to deal with the rest of my post? Just wonderin'...

justaname said:

Ask Oz which fallacy you are commiting here...

Red herring
Straw-man

The topic is apostasy. Unless you can prove they truly believed in their heart while their actions prove they have no belief, you have no case.

Who can know the heart of a man? We do not even know the depths of our own wickedness, how can we know the depts of others? Some may have fooled even themselves with their oppression of the truth. Their actions prove they are in rebellion, what makes you believe they ever were not in rebellion?

My "free will" is submitted to God's sovereign authority. Free will from your perspective could also be called rebellion.

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I don't see a fallacy here.
Your claim is that their actions prove that they were never Christians to begin with, and my response is "prove it."
The fact is that you cannot.
Why is that, Barrd? Because, Justaname, you can not see into someone else's heart. Period, the end.

Look at what you tell me next: Who can know the heart of a man? Which is exactly my point. We cannot know the heart of a man. You tell me that we don't even know the depths of our own wickedness....perhaps you, yourself are "in rebellion" and do not realize it. You want me to accept you idea that because they left their faith, they were always in rebellion....but again, you have no way to prove that. That is merely an assumption on your part for which you have no basis....because you have no idea what was in their heart.

Now, you tell me that your free will is submitted to God's sovereign authority. Well and good. I can't see your heart, so I don't actually know that you are being honest with me...or with yourself...but because you tell me this, I choose to believe it. And I say "Hey, great! I pray that it will always be so."

And yes, free will could also be called rebellion. Remember the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Did they have free will?
And again, did Abraham have free will? He chose to do as God had asked him to do. And Moses...as I recall, he did a bit of squirming when God first told him what He wanted him to do...but in the end, he chose to obey. Others chose to rebel...for instance, the guy who tried to gather manna on the Sabbath day, after Moses had told the people that there wouldn't be any...or those priests who offered "strange fire" to God (I always wondered about that.)
Anyway, all through the Bible, people have demonstrated their free will.

ATP said:

Once again Phone, I do believe faith without works is dead. You simply do not accept my testimony.

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I would like to make a comment here about faith without works is dead.

James, a Jew under the law of Moses wrote this statement to the Jews (James 1:1). It sows confusion if it is applied to those under grace.

Under the law of Moses if a person did not do the requirements of the law of Moses then his/her faith in the requirements of the law of Moses is certainly dead.

But under grace the law does not apply. Under grace faith, belief, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross is all that is required for salvation. A person either believes this or doesn't believe it. If a person does not believe it then that person is committing the sin of unbelief just as the Jews did when God told them they could enter into the promised land and He (God) would drive the people there out. The Jews did not believe God and God made then wander in the wilderness for 40 years.

It is a terrible thing to not believe what God says.

Phoneman777 said:

Absolutely. There is no such thing as being clothed with the Robe of Righteousness while simultaneously stripping one's self naked and climbing into bed with Satan. What OSAS folks don't understand is that it is at that time that God is most merciful, begging and pleading for the offender to return to Him and receive the clean garment which covers that nakedness, but blasphemous persistent refusal to obey the pleadings of the Holy Spirit will eventually lead to the inability to hear His voice and to seek pardon for sleeping with the enemy - The Unpardonable Sin.

Salvation is a day by day, moment by moment experience and the only way I'm changing my mind is if someone can find me a branch that has not withered and died after becoming disconnected from the Vine.

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I, personally do not believe in progressive salvation, nor in progressive sanctification.

I have never seen or heard of a man in sinful flesh being made perfect in the flesh when that man is made a child of God by God. The teaching that says this has sent many to hell by making then feel that they must be able to stop sinning in the flesh in order to be saved.

This teaching flies in the face of what Paul said in Romans 7. A child of God does not WANT to commit sins of the flesh but he/she becomes a liar if he/she thinks they are sinless.

Phoneman777 said:

Everyone knows that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the Unpardonable Sin (Matthew 12:31 KJV).

What everyone seems to ignore is that blasphemy is Biblically defined as (1) to claim the power to forgive sins (Luke 5:21 KJV), and (2) to "make thyself God" (John 10:33 KJV).

Comparing these verses, the only rightful conclusion of the matter is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is "making ourselves god in opposition to the Holy Spirit" - which is the Unpardonable Sin because anyone who does that is no longer capable of receiving pardon because he is incapable of seeking pardon.

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Why would a believer blasphemy the Holy Spirit?

Phoneman777 said:

The same verse that says they had no root also says they "rejoiced" and "believed" for a time. These which you claim are "non-believers" must have been the stupidest pagans in all of history, rejoicing and believing in a kingdom where their supersonic sexual licentious pagan worship will never be practiced.

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Rejoiced? What passage? Pagans rejoice in the creation, not the creator Rom 1:25 NIV.

justaname said:

Firstly I did not say anything about Christianity...you did. Now for the argument...

You say they had salvation and lost it. Prove they had salvation to begin with. The fact is you can not.

Yet the fact remains they are apostate.

I adhere to Jonathon Edward's definition of free will...

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Since neither one of us can see into a man's heart, it seems to me that we ought to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Again, if someone says to me that they have a heart-felt faith, since I cannot see his heart and know for sure whether he does or not, I tend to believe him. Why would I doubt him? It seems to me that Christianity, as taught by Jesus Christ, demands that I do not make such judgments.

As has been pointed out, one cannot desert something they never had. To be an apostate, one must have once had real faith.

Jonathon Edwards was just a man, like you and I...well, I'm a woman, but you know what I mean. He may have been a great preacher...but even he could not see into a man's heart. I'm not going to go and look up and try to read some long, boring treatise on Jon's notions about "free will"....it would be a major waste of my time.


The Bible is chock full of stories of people who exercised their free will to rebel against God, beginning with Adam and Eve. According to my Bible, Adam and Eve knew God personally...God walked and talked with them regularly...and yet, they still rebelled. Are you going to tell me that they did not have "heart-faith"?

(copied from an earlier post)
And yes, free will could also be called rebellion. Remember the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Did they have free will?
And again, did Abraham have free will? He chose to do as God had asked him to do. And Moses...as I recall, he did a bit of squirming when God first told him what He wanted him to do...but in the end, he chose to obey. Others chose to rebel...for instance, the guy who tried to gather manna on the Sabbath day, after Moses had told the people that there wouldn't be any...or those priests who offered "strange fire" to God (I always wondered about that.)
Anyway, all through the Bible, people have demonstrated their free will.

justaname said:

Does Jesus ever say those who don't endure to the end will be saved or are in the process of being saved but bring that process to a halt?

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Something I noticed in the commentaries of Matt 24:13 NIV. They all speak of being saved from war. So what about the destruction of Jerusalem..Ez 40-48, Matt 24:15 NIV, Psalm 83 NIV, Ez 38-39 NIV. Could it be that we are saved from the destruction of wars, and Matt 24:13 NIV has nothing to do with losing personal salvation..http://biblehub.com/...tthew/24-13.htm

sózó: to save: I save, heal, preserve, rescue.

4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]

Endurance to the end of life is in every case the condition of salvation, in the full meaning of the word. But the context rather leads us to see in the “end” the close of the period of which our Lord speaks, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem; and so the words “shall be saved” at least include deliverance from the doom of those who were involved in that destruction.

The disciples had asked concerning the times, When these things should be? Christ gave them no answer to that; but they had also asked, What shall be the sign? This question he answers fully. The prophecy first respects events near at hand, the destruction of Jerusalem,

He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved - The word "end," here, has by some been thought to mean the destruction of Jerusalem, or the end of the Jewish economy, and the meaning has been supposed to be "he that perseveres in bearing these persecutions to the end of the wars shall be safe.

Mt 24:1-51. Christ's Prophecy of the Destruction of Jerusalem, and Warnings Suggested by It to Prepare for His Second Coming. ( = Mr 13:1-37; Lu 21:5-36).

For the exposition, see on [1355]Mr 13:1-37.

the same shall be saved; with a temporal salvation, when Jerusalem, and the unbelieving inhabitants of it shall be destroyed: for those that believed in Christ, many of them, through persecution, were obliged to remove from thence; and others, by a voice from heaven, were bid to go out of it, as they did; and removed to Pella, a village a little beyond Jordan (u), and so were preserved from the general calamity; and also with an everlasting salvation, which is the case of all that persevere to the end, as all true believers in Christ will.

εἰς τέλος] not perpetuo (Fritzsche), which, as the connection shows (Matthew 24:6), is too indefinite; but: unto the end, till the last, until the troubles will have come to an end, which, as appears from the context (σωθήσεται), will, in point of fact, be coincident with the second advent. Comp. Matthew 24:30-31; Matthew 10:22. The context forbids such interpretations as: unto death (Elsner, Kuinoel, Ebrard), until the destruction of Jerusalem (Krebs, Rosenmüller, R. Hofmann),

Verse 13. - He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (Matthew 10:22). Here is a note of consolation amid the refrain of woe. Patience and perseverance shall be crowned at the last. "The end" means primarily the destruction of Jerusalem, and the salvation promised is safety in that day of peril. It is believed that no Christians perished in the siege or after it (see ver. 16).