The Doctrine of OSAS

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
brakelite said:
i will add...there are charges made against non-osas that we believe that those who do advocate osas also advocate that osas gives license to sin. That is not necessarily true. I have read from you fellas that you do not advocate any license to sin, and I believe you. After all, who am I that I should call you liars? However, what you do say is the following, although perhaps in not like words....
it does not matter if a Christian transgresses God's laws...he will go to heaven regardless....now irrespective of the reasons for taking that stance, (the law nailed to the cross...a Christian cannot sin etc etc) the result of anyone hearing that teaching will inevitably lead to a reduction in their abhorrence of sin. I cannot support any idea that God would sanction such a doctrine, nor allow such a doctrine to become a reality or truth, for it was sin that cost Him the life of His Son. It was sin that divided heaven. It was sin that brought death, suffering, pain, illness, and all manner of violence and corruption to the world that prompted Him to destroy all of it in a flood. It was sin that brought the downfall of humanity after the flood. It was sin that inspired man to believe that without God and without obedience, he could attain to salvation and immortality. And it is sin today that will be the ultimate cause for the final destruction of the wicked when Christ returns. It is this final destruction that God Himself calls, His strange act. Throughout history God's heartfelt yearning has been to dwell in our midst. It is sin however that has been constantly thwarting that plan, for sin separates us from God...not by forcing God away from us, but by our own choosing we are , through our transgression, deciding on a different master. And God despises and abhors anything that would tend to diminish, lessen, or reduce the hatred of sin that He would seek to implant in the lives, hearts, and minds of those He seeks to save.
The doctrine of osas works against God's will for His people. For the very reason that in many it would tend to lessen any desire to forsake it, and thus lessen the desire for the righteousness for God, would be why God has not made it possible or even viable that any can be saved whilst cherishing any known sin. To cherish sin...to not allow God to wholly sanctify the heart...to willingly continue to deliberately imbibe in any transgression against any of God's commandments, is a fruitage of a life that loves self or pleasure or this world greater than God.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
And that is why I say you are eloquent, beloved brother.
I couldn't have put it better.
The OSAS doctrine naturally works against God's will for us, and that is enough reason to deny it.
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
brakelite said:
You are not trusting Him though ATP. You don't trust Him to be able to empower you to forsake or overcome sin in this life, thus you trust Him to tolerate sin, rather than defeat it.
How do you know that? You have no idea who I am.
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ATP said:
How do you know that? You have no idea who I am.
You are right to oppose the view that we must save ourselves by what we do.

About this idea that Jesus empowers us to overcome our sins of the flesh. We have no sins since they were paid for by Jesus' shed blood on the cross. The Spirit that we have been given does not sin in the eyes of God because of Jesus' shed blood.

It has been my lot to find out, first hand, the results of those that teach sinless perfection in the flesh; that God changes our sinful flesh nature. The result of this teaching causes many to give up hope and turn away from Jesus.

When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me. It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him because he didn‘t feel he had changed.

I found that he had been talking to some Christians who were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning; that he would be changed. He wanted to stop sinning but said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it. He wanted to know what I believed about it. I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves and keep the Law of Moses; to do for them what they could not do for themselves, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to believe and trust that it has saved you. I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.

It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of “”“change“”” does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. To me it is a self-righteous message. It reminds me of what Jesus said in Matt. 23: 11-13.

Matt 23:11-13 (NKJ)
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

As for me if I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their belief and trust (faith) in Him. Let me show where I have placed my faith.

Now if anyone wishes to say that I should have told him I no longer sin in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today. The only change for a child of God is that Jesus has imputed righteousness to their Spirit by paying for all their sins of the flesh on a cross. The sinful nature of the flesh remains.

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, """but with the flesh the law of sin.""""
NKJV

1 John 1:8 (NKJ)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I firmly believe that when David wrote Psalms 23:4 the words “shadow of death” meant the judgment for his own sins of the flesh which he continued to do.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

I firmly believe the reason foe the decline in Christianity is that no one in it feels they have been set free. It is all about the works religious people do to keep one saved.

Paul said; Gal 5:1-5
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness""""" by faith."""""
NKJV
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
H. Richard said:
You are right to oppose the view that we must save ourselves by what we do.
Thank you Richard. It's an honor to speak with you. It's a blessing to come across OSAS believers.

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html

- ATP
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This pericope of Scripture speaks strongly reflecting what I have been saying all along.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65

Here Jesus speaks of those who are following Him but still do not believe. Jesus knows from the beginning who will not believe. None of these will ever obtain salvation at any point in their lives. Also no one can come to Him unless it is granted by the Father...Jesus says this is because some do not believe.

Some never in their lives get to hear the gospel...this is a true statement...
 

ATP

New Member
Jan 3, 2015
3,264
49
0
U.S.A.
justaname said:
This pericope of Scripture speaks strongly reflecting what I have been saying all along.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65

Here Jesus speaks of those who are following Him but still do not believe. Jesus knows from the beginning who will not believe. None of these will ever obtain salvation at any point in their lives. Also no one can come to Him unless it is granted by the Father...Jesus says this is because some do not believe.

Some never in their lives get to hear the gospel...this is a true statement...
It's spooky isn't it, free will? Jesus knowing..
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
justaname said:
This pericope of Scripture speaks strongly reflecting what I have been saying all along.
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65
Here Jesus speaks of those who are following Him but still do not believe. Jesus knows from the beginning who will not believe. None of these will ever obtain salvation at any point in their lives. Also no one can come to Him unless it is granted by the Father...Jesus says this is because some do not believe.
Some never in their lives get to hear the gospel...this is a true statement...
Let's just take a look at these scriptures in current modern English;
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Not quite what you are attempting to convey, based on the context. Of course God know who will and won't confess Jesus as their saviour, which is what we find in Rom 8:28_30 (NIV), but in this case it refers to the disciples referred to in v60, and of course Judas.
not believing at any point in ones life does not mean one will NEVER believe. Peter believed, denied Him, repented and was killed for his belief. Only God knows for sure who will receive eternal life, but His overall message to us through His written word, is to endure and persevere. You don' t tell that to anyone who can't walk away from their salvation.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ATP said:
It's spooky isn't it, free will? Jesus knowing..
God does not direct our every thought, but He knows them all.
God does not make our decisions for us, but He knows our decisions before we do. Even more than that He knows all the reasons why we make the decisions we do better than we know ourselves.

We have the ability to make choices, and we make those choices based on our greatest desire at any given moment. For instance, I could chose to eat ice cream or I could chose to abstain for health reasons. Either way I chose determines my greatest desire at that moment. So it is with sin: I could chose to sin or abstain from sinning. If my greatest desire is to honor God I abstain, yet if I give in to temptation my desire to serve my self is the greatest desire at that moment.

The Bible speaks how we are slaves to sin (our desire to serve temptation and our selves) or slaves to righteousness (our desire to serve God). Before God I stills His Holy Spirit, all are captive to sin. Pride is a desire seeking to be fulfilled constantly. God breaks us free from that bondage giving life to our true desire, to love and serve Him, through our belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Only through this faith can anyone serve another but themselves.

Yet when people serve others to maintain their salvation they nullify the work of the Spirit and serve themselves again.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
FHII said:
Barrd, I really hate to knit pick on whatmight be considered a small Iissue, but it is a pet peeve of mine. I've mentuoned this before, and will do so again: John Calvin did not start the OSAS doctrine, and in fact said many things against it. Among them the often quoted, "grace doesn't give you a license to sin. "

He wrongly gets credit for OSAS because in one of his 30 -40 books he wrote 3 chapters on predestination, which in fact is in the bible, and I know you are aware of it. 3 chapters out of literally thousands!

What is possibly true is that some of his followers started the doctrine (based on those three chapters) some time after his death and even longer after his retirement. So if people call it "calvinism" its wrong, but I can tolorate it. He probably would be upset at such a term. Martin Luther had the same problem of followers running amuck with his teaching.

So for what cause or what teaching do you call him a heretic? What exactly is he wrong about? There are reasons I don't like him and maybe they would earn him that title, but they aren't related to this conversation.

You appear to be upset at personal attacks. Well, don't make them on Calvin, especially when they are done out of ignorance.
John Calvin, in writing on predestination, stated: 'Augustine is so completely of our persuasion, that if I should have to make written profession, it would be quite enough to present a composition made up entirely of excerpts from his writings' (in 'Augustine on Sin and the Will', tbakerhill, 25 December 2012).

HOWEVER, what did Augustine believe?

Augustine of Hippo wrote a treatise 'On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II' in which he stated:

I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent—or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. But how should he who has not persevered have ever been persevering, since it is only by persevering that any one shows himself persevering—and this he has not done? But lest any one should object to this, and say, If from the time at which any one became a believer he has lived— for the sake of argument— ten years, and in the midst of them has fallen from the faith, has he not persevered for five years? I am not contending about words. If it be thought that this also should be called perseverance, as it were for so long as it lasts, assuredly he is not to be said to have had in any degree that perseverance of which we are now discoursing, by which one perseveres in Christ even to the end. And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years' standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the steadfastness of his faith (chapter 1).
It seems that Calvin was misinformed by this one as Augustine wrote here of someone who could 'fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer'. He 'was believing ... but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was'.

Hello, Mr Calvin, Augustine does not believe as you do with predestination (and OSAS).

Oz
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
StanJ said:
Let's just take a look at these scriptures in current modern English;
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Not quite what you are attempting to convey, based on the context. Of course God know who will and won't confess Jesus as their saviour, which is what we find in Rom 8:28_30 (NIV), but in this case it refers to the disciples referred to in v60, and of course Judas.
not believing at any point in ones life does not mean one will NEVER believe. Peter believed, denied Him, repented and was killed for his belief. Only God knows for sure who will receive eternal life, but His overall message to us through His written word, is to endure and persevere. You don' t tell that to anyone who can't walk away from their salvation.
Stan,

In context Jesus was not only speaking about or even only to the twelve...

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. - John 6:66

This immediately follows in the pericope...would you claim they had salvation then lost it?

I do not disagree that we are called to endure and preserve, yet this does nothing to prove anyone who walks away from Jesus was going to be saved by God to begin with.

Are we saved by our power to preserve or God's power to save? If we look to Peter as you have used as your example it was Jesus' interceding prayer to not allow Satan to sift him that granted Peter's salvation. Also Peter lived and died a believer...he did preserve. This example of Peter furthers my case, not yours.

This is a great passage from Jude that instructs how we preserve...

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. - Jude 1:20-21

Yet God is accredited as the One who can keep us from stumbling...

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, - Jude 1:24
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
justaname said:
This pericope of Scripture speaks strongly reflecting what I have been saying all along.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65

Here Jesus speaks of those who are following Him but still do not believe. Jesus knows from the beginning who will not believe. None of these will ever obtain salvation at any point in their lives. Also no one can come to Him unless it is granted by the Father...Jesus says this is because some do not believe.

Some never in their lives get to hear the gospel...this is a true statement...
justaname,

It's a shame that you did not start your quote from John 6 with these two earlier verses, '‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: “They will all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me' (John 6:44-45 NIV). Verse 45 is a necessary corollary to v. 44. God the Father draws, but every person who had heard the Father and learned needs to respond. There is a sovereign calling by God, but there is a human responsibility of responding.

Yes, the verses you have quoted from John 6:63-65 assert an what seems to be an unconditional election, but there are other verses that confirm that there is an effect on human beings by which they need to respond. We see this in John 7:17, 'If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority' (ESV). So, human beings will to do God's will. As Robert Shank put it many way back in 1961, 'There is nothing about God's gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel's "whosoever will" into a "whosoever must" and a "most of you shan't" (Shank 1961:339).

This is the what we should expect because from the beginning of time, God has given individuals (starting with Adam and Eve) the ability to say yes or no (for Adam and Eve it related to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). God has not taken this human responsibility away from human beings - including right down to responding in faith to the offer of salvation and then falling away to the point of being at the stage that it is 'impossible to restore again to repentance' (Heb 6:4 ESV).

Oz

Works consulted
Shank, R 1961. Life in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Perseverance. Springfield, Missouri: Westcott Publishers.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OzSpen said:
John Calvin, in writing on predestination, stated: 'Augustine is so completely of our persuasion, that if I should have to make written profession, it would be quite enough to present a composition made up entirely of excerpts from his writings' (in 'Augustine on Sin and the Will', tbakerhill, 25 December 2012).

HOWEVER, what did Augustine believe?

Augustine of Hippo wrote a treatise 'On the Predestination of the Saints, Book II' in which he stated:


It seems that Calvin was misinformed by this one as Augustine wrote here of someone who could 'fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer'. He 'was believing ... but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was'.

Hello, Mr Calvin, Augustine does not believe as you do with predestination (and OSAS).

Oz
I would like to submit Augustine is careful to not speak of salvation in either gain or loss.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
justaname said:
Are we saved by our power to preserve or God's power to save? If we look to Peter as you have used as your example it was Jesus' interceding prayer to not allow Satan to sift him that granted Peter's salvation. Also Peter lived and died a believer...he did preserve. This example of Peter furthers my case, not yours.
justaname,

'For it is impossible ... to restore them again to repentance' (Heb 6:4,6 ESV).

Hebrews makes it clear that when someone falls away (Heb 6:6), it is impossible to restore them to repentance. A restoration to repentance means that they had experienced repentance in the first place. Otherwise the language of 'to restore them to repentance' is useless to explain what was going on. Restoring means they had it to begin with.

This is a scary situation where a person can be enlightened to the point of repentance but then fall away and for them there is no further opportunity for repentance.

That is frightening to me because this OSAS emphasis wants to brush this kind of apostasy aside, saying they couldn't have been saved in the first place.

No, they were saved; they repented and then committed apostasy by falling away from the faith. Now there is no further opportunity for salvation. Renewal to repentance is no longer possible. That's chilling in its effect because it is so permanent eternally. And we dare to lighten the seriousness of what the writer to the Hebrews is teaching.

Oz
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OzSpen said:
justaname,

It's a shame that you did not start your quote from John 6 with these two earlier verses, '‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: “They will all be taught by God.” Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me' (John 6:44-45 NIV). Verse 45 is a necessary corollary to v. 44. God the Father draws, but every person who had heard the Father and learned needs to respond. There is a sovereign calling by God, but there is a human responsibility of responding.

Yes, the verses you have quoted from John 6:63-65 assert an what seems to be an unconditional election, but there are other verses that confirm that there is an effect on human beings by which they need to respond. We see this in John 7:17, 'If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority' (ESV). So, human beings will to do God's will. As Robert Shank put it many way back in 1961, 'There is nothing about God's gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel's "whosoever will" into a "whosoever must" and a "most of you shan't" (Shank 1961:339).

This is the what we should expect because from the beginning of time, God has given individuals (starting with Adam and Eve) the ability to say yes or no (for Adam and Eve it related to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). God has not taken this human responsibility away from human beings - including right down to responding in faith to the offer of salvation and then falling away to the point of being at the stage that it is 'impossible to restore again to repentance' (Heb 6:4 ESV).

Oz

Works consulted
Shank, R 1961. Life in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Perseverance. Springfield, Missouri: Westcott Publishers.
Thanks Oz for the response. I do not deny the hearer's responsibility to the call yet the stress of my post was on God's sovereign call.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OzSpen said:
justaname,

'For it is impossible ... to restore them again to repentance' (Heb 6:4,6 ESV).

Hebrews makes it clear that when someone falls away (Heb 6:6), it is impossible to restore them to repentance. A restoration to repentance means that they had experienced repentance in the first place. Otherwise the language of 'to restore them to repentance' is useless to explain what was going on. Restoring means they had it to begin with.

This is a scary situation where a person can be enlightened to the point of repentance but then fall away and for them there is no further opportunity for repentance.

That is frightening to me because this OSAS emphasis wants to brush this kind of apostasy aside, saying they couldn't have been saved in the first place.

No, they were saved; they repented and then committed apostasy by falling away from the faith. Now there is no further opportunity for salvation. Renewal to repentance is no longer possible. That's chilling in its effect because it is so permanent eternally. And we dare to lighten the seriousness of what the writer to the Hebrews is teaching.

Oz
I agree with the writer of Hebrews yet not your contention they were ever in possession of salvation. Repentance does not cause salvation, enduring faith in Christ is the vehicle God uses for salvation. Repentance is the first step in salvation yet it is far from the perfection of salvation.

Then we must affirm what it means to repent, or what we are to repent of. My contention is our repentance is from our convictions we can do anything to save ourselves. God lifts up the humble and brings low the proud. Our repentance is from not trusting God. Adam broke that trust in the garden, Jesus restored that trust on the cross, which God confirmed through the resurrection. What is the work of God but to believe the One He sent.


God knows every apostate before any action they ever take. Great is the consequence for the apostate, here I agree. Yet God does not save apostates, only those who endure. Don't tell me God attempts to save the apostate yet fails because their free will was greater than Him.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
justaname said:
Stan,

In context Jesus was not only speaking about or even only to the twelve...

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. - John 6:66

This immediately follows in the pericope...would you claim they had salvation then lost it?

I do not disagree that we are called to endure and preserve, yet this does nothing to prove anyone who walks away from Jesus was going to be saved by God to begin with.

Are we saved by our power to preserve or God's power to save? If we look to Peter as you have used as your example it was Jesus' interceding prayer to not allow Satan to sift him that granted Peter's salvation. Also Peter lived and died a believer...he did preserve. This example of Peter furthers my case, not yours.

This is a great passage from Jude that instructs how we preserve...

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. - Jude 1:20-21

Yet God is accredited as the One who can keep us from stumbling...

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, - Jude 1:24
Actually I didn't say ONLY the twelve. Did I not say see v60?

I'm actually dealing solely with what you posted. John doesn't say who of those that turned away never believed and who would betray Him. We know, based on the entirety of the NT, which is what we should use when EVER we look at any issue.

We are saved by confession and acceptance of Jesus as our saviour. Are you not clear about WHO is saved and how? One may have a ticket to ride, but if one never gets on the train or gets off somewhere, they don't get to that destination despite the fact they have the means and authority to get there.

Yes Jude is great, as is ALL the NT. I'm not really seeing a point here from you.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
justaname said:
I agree with the writer of Hebrews yet not your contention they were ever in possession of salvation. Repentance does not cause salvation, enduring faith in Christ is the vehicle God uses for salvation. Repentance is the first step in salvation yet it is far from the perfection of salvation.

Then we must affirm what it means to repent, or what we are to repent of. My contention is our repentance is from our convictions we can do anything to save ourselves. God lifts up the humble and brings low the proud. Our repentance is from not trusting God. Adam broke that trust in the garden, Jesus restored that trust on the cross, which God confirmed through the resurrection. What is the work of God but to believe the One He sent.


God knows every apostate before any action they ever take. Great is the consequence for the apostate, here I agree. Yet God does not save apostates, only those who endure. Don't tell me God attempts to save the apostate yet fails because their free will was greater than Him.
2 Cor 7:10 (ESV) disagrees, 'For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death'.

Repentance is a U-turn that God causes at salvation. However, Heb 6:4-6 affirms it can become unrepentance through apostasy, and that repentance cannot be renewed.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
StanJ said:
Actually I didn't say ONLY the twelve. Did I not say see v60?

I'm actually dealing solely with what you posted. John doesn't say who of those that turned away never believed and who would betray Him. We know, based on the entirety of the NT, which is what we should use when EVER we look at any issue.

We are saved by confession and acceptance of Jesus as our saviour. Are you not clear about WHO is saved and how? One may have a ticket to ride, but if one never gets on the train or gets off somewhere, they don't get to that destination despite the fact they have the means and authority to get there.

Yes Jude is great, as is ALL the NT. I'm not really seeing a point here from you.
It may be my response to your post was from a different understanding that you were attempting to convey.

Let me present my contention to you first so we may dialogue from a clear understanding.

Perhaps the greatest issue I have is the loose use of the definition of salvation. Clearly from previous posts we see some who use the definition of atonement to explain salvation. This clearly is false. We must know what salvation is before we can make any logical arguments about it.

Then we have the idea of salvation being something that can be gained then lost. Here I sorely disagree.

With salvation being presented as a past, present, and future event, how can someone claim to have anything they are yet to obtain?

Let's start our discussion here please.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OzSpen said:
2 Cor 7:10 (ESV) disagrees, 'For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death'.

Repentance is a U-turn that God causes at salvation. However, Heb 6:4-6 affirms it can become unrepentance through apostasy, and that repentance cannot be renewed.
2 Cor 7:10 does not disagree with my argument at all. Repenting leads to salvation for those who endure to the end, but God is still the cause of salvation. This affirms repentance is the first step in salvation, yet this is not saying repentance is finality of salvation or that salvation is gained by someone who has not finished the race.