The Doctrine of OSAS

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
StanJ said:
So you don't believe what Paul wrote in Rom 10:9-13 is true? In 1 Cor 15:2, Paul doesn't say those who are saved have this so-called perseverance, he says IF YOU HOLD FIRMLY. That is dependent on the individual, NOT on any type of security or guarantee.
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Seems very clear to me.
Why would I not believe Romans 10:9-13? I have never argued against this verse...

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.

Nothing here disagrees with 1 Corinthians 15:2
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Barrd said:
But you've turned the verse around backward!

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
He had already preached this gospel to these people, whom he calls "brothers and siters", and they had already received this gospel, and taken their stand on this gospel. They were already saved.


2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
Now he tells them that they must hold firmly to the word that he had preached to them.
Otherwise, he tells them, they have believed in vain.


Had they believed the gospel he had preached to them?
They had received it, they had made their stand on it, and they had believed it. No matter how you try to twist it, they were saved.

The warning is that if they do not hold firmly to the word that was preached to them, they would lose that salvation.

Their belief would have been in vain. That last bit definitely finishes the debate. They had believed, i.e. they were saved. They were to hold on to the word that was preached to them, otherwise they had believed in vain.

This verse does not prove OSAS....my dear man, it refutes OSAS!
YAWN...

I did not turn the verse backward, you are adding to the text.

Where does it say they will lose salvation? Answer: No Where!
It says if they don't continue in their faith they believed in vain.

Some heard the gospel and believed in truth, others may have believed in vain. Those who believed in vain prove they believed in vain by not holding firm. Again this is what I argue all along. If you remember your argument used to be, "You can't see into their hearts".

This verse confirms my position...


Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

Those who think they can lose their salvation are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but partly trusting in their own righteousness. Such teaching would have you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to make his people perfect forever (Heb 10:14) or save them to the uttermost (Heb 7:25) [i.e. that Jesus is not enough]. ... such that, in addition to what Christ did, they must join their own ability to persevere to the end in order to maintain their own just standing before God. The book of Hebrews and Galatians severely warns against this and all teaching that rejects the sufficiency of Christ alone (Heb 6 & 10; Gal 3:3). Such persons think Christ made the down payment on their salvation but that they have to keep up the monthly installments (so to speak). A total misapprehension of the meaning of paid in full."
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hebrews 10:12

But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Take heed to this verse. There is nothing anyone can add to the sacrifice given by Christ. Those who are being sanctified are perfected by Christ. We are God's workmanship. Know that God is the active force in salvation!
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
justaname said:
YAWN...

I did not turn the verse backward, you are adding to the text.

Where does it say they will lose salvation? Answer: No Where!
It says if they don't continue in their faith they believed in vain.

Some heard the gospel and believed in truth, others may have believed in vain. Those who believed in vain prove they believed in vain by not holding firm. Again this is what I argue all along. If you remember your argument used to be, "You can't see into their hearts".

This verse confirms my position...
By this gospel you are saved
Does it say they were saved? Answer: Yes.

if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Is there a condition? Answer: Yes.

Otherwise,
Is it an "either, or" question? Answer: Yes.

you have believed
Had they believed the gospel preached to them? Answer: Yes.
Would this indicate that they had been saved? Answer: Yes.

in vain.
Paul says their belief would have been in vain.
Does this mean that they would lose their salvation? Answer: YES!


Can you see into their hearts? Answer: No.

I can't see how you get that this verse confirms your position.

Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

Those who think they can lose their salvation are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but partly trusting in their own righteousness. Such teaching would have you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to make his people perfect forever (Heb 10:14) or save them to the uttermost (Heb 7:25) [i.e. that Jesus is not enough]. ... such that, in addition to what Christ did, they must join their own ability to persevere to the end in order to maintain their own just standing before God. The book of Hebrews and Galatians severely warns against this and all teaching that rejects the sufficiency of Christ alone (Heb 6 & 10; Gal 3:3). Such persons think Christ made the down payment on their salvation but that they have to keep up the monthly installments (so to speak). A total misapprehension of the meaning of paid in full."
So, who is Micheal Horton, whenever he's at home?
The only Horton I know is a crazy elephant invented by a man who calls himself "Dr. Seuss" who writes delightful little stories for children.


Let's stick to the Bible, what do you say?

Let's let God be God....
And we'll leave Horton to hatching elephant-bird eggs and listening for tiny people living on dust specks.
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If non OSAS dont believe God can save them I wonder what it is they believe in?? Oh Ye of little faith... What was the point of Christs resurection if you dont believe He can save you, or are you all trying to save yourselves??
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Barrd said:
By this gospel you are saved
Does it say they were saved? Answer: Yes.

if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Is there a condition? Answer: Yes.

Otherwise,
Is it an "either, or" question? Answer: Yes.

you have believed
Had they believed the gospel preached to them? Answer: Yes.
Would this indicate that they had been saved? Answer: Yes.

in vain.
Paul says their belief would have been in vain.
Does this mean that they would lose their salvation? Answer: YES!


Can you see into their hearts? Answer: No.

I can't see how you get that this verse confirms your position.

So, who is Micheal Horton, whenever he's at home?
The only Horton I know is a crazy elephant invented by a man who calls himself "Dr. Seuss" who writes delightful little stories for children.


Let's stick to the Bible, what do you say?

Let's let God be God....
And we'll leave Horton to hatching elephant-bird eggs and listening for tiny people living on dust specks.
What is interesting is you by this are saying you can see into their hearts knowing the believed in order to be saved. Yet the the Scripture says it is possible they believed in vain...

Can you see into their hearts? No.

BTW who is Barrd?
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
justaname said:
What is interesting is you by this are saying you can see into their hearts knowing the believed in order to be saved. Yet the the Scripture says it is possible they believed in vain...

Can you see into their hearts? No.

BTW who is Barrd?
Paul says that they had believed the word he preached to them.
I'm choosing to believe Paul.

And asking me who I am does not change the fact that quoting some dude named Horton doesn't prove a thing except what Horton thinks.
So, Horton thinks what you think. Yipee!
From my pov, that only proves that you're both wrong.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Barrd, someone posyed a quote from horton, which is pertinent to the discussion and discusses bible teaching. Your response seems to dismiss it and even make fun of the man's name.

It simply looks to me as an evasive move. "It isn't in the bible, so I'm going to ignore it and even laugh at it without reading it".

I'm not supporting nor defending horton. Just giving my observation on what I see.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
FHII said:
Barrd, someone posyed a quote from horton, which is pertinent to the discussion and discusses bible teaching. Your response seems to dismiss it and even make fun of the man's name.

It simply looks to me as an evasive move. "It isn't in the bible, so I'm going to ignore it and even laugh at it without reading it".

I'm not supporting nor defending horton. Just giving my observation on what I see.
FHII, when discussing what is or what is not doctrine, I am not interested in reading someone else's opinions.
I'm quite sure we could pull up quite as many "scholarly works" with the opposite opinion.
None of which proves a thing.
If we want to know what is or what is not valid doctrine, the only "scholarly work" that we need is the Bible.

I have indicated this to that user before, but he keeps insisting on bringing in someone else's opinion. I do believe this is a fallacy known as "argument from authority"....

As if there is any other authority beside God.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
Why do you think that God told us, through the mouth of His servant David, not to lean on our own understanding?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Why do you suppose we are admonished not to be wise in our own eyes?

Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Just as our works are as filthy rags before a Holy God, so is all of our much vaunted "scholarship" nothing but foolishness before His omniscience.

If you are truly seeking after wisdom, I will whisper in your ear, and you will know where to find it:

Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

But, I tell you, there will be fine, learned scholars left standing outside the gate, while those with simple, childish hearts are welcomed inside.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


And that's what God has to say about it.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The arguements should not be based on the reputation of the author, but on the substance behind the arguement.

Are you refusing to discuss the opinion based on the source or.... well, there's nothing else to refuse!

Justaname could've taken that whole quote and put it in his own words. Would you have discussed it then? What he did id simply give due credit.

What horton said was not doctrine in itself. It was comnentary on a doctrine already in the bible, or at least reportedly so.

Agsin, it simply cones off as you avoiding the discussion simply because there isn't a book of horton in the bible. Your rejection isn't based on the merits of what he said.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Barrd said:
Paul says that they had believed the word he preached to them.
I'm choosing to believe Paul.

And asking me who I am does not change the fact that quoting some dude named Horton doesn't prove a thing except what Horton thinks.
So, Horton thinks what you think. Yipee!
From my pov, that only proves that you're both wrong.
I preached to you in v. 2 repeats the same line found in v. 1. In v. 1 Paul’s line of thought followed a purely positive track leading to the Corinthians’ salvation. Here Paul goes back to where he started in v. 1 to allow for the frightening possibility that they may have believed in vain, if they fail to hold firmly to the word (here the word refers to the gospel mentioned in v. 1) preached to them by Paul. Those who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and those who reject that doctrine both agree that people who do not persevere in the gospel have no true claim on its promised blessings and benefits. Paul generally assumes that those who confess Christ will remain faithful to that confession (thus the positive tone of v. 1), but he also acknowledged the tragic truth that not all ended up doing so.
Ciampa, R. E., & Rosner, B. S. (2010). The First Letter to the Corinthians (p. 744). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

15:1–2. The gospel Paul had preached in Corinth (2:1–2) had not changed; but he feared that just as there had been declension in the church concerning the message of Christ crucified and its implication for believers, the same was happening with regard to the message of Christ resurrected. As the former message was an essential element in the Corinthians’ experience of ongoing salvation (the pres. tense of the verb saved focuses on sanctification), so was the latter. To reject bodily resurrection eviscerated “the gospel” and made faith vain (eikē, “without cause” or “without success”; cf. vv. 14, 17) because it had an unworthy object (cf. 15:13, 17). Believing the gospel includes holding firmly to belief in Christ’s resurrection. Unless one holds firmly, his belief is “in vain”; cf. Matt. 13:18–22).
Lowery, D. K. (1985). 1 Corinthians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, p. 542). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

QUESTION—What does εἰκῇ ‘in vain’ mean?
It means that what they believed will not be realized [TH]. Paul addresses the whole membership of the congregation and some may not have a genuine faith [MNTC, TNTC]. This means unless their faith is worthless and they believed without effect [MNTC]. It means believing without due consideration or thoughtlessly [NIGTC]. It means ‘at random’ so that it led nowhere and resulted in nothing [Lns]. It means worthless [AB, Ho]. It means without consideration, heedlessly, rashly [ICC]. It means of no purpose, which would be true if Christ has not been raised [Vn]. The word refers to 15:14 and the possibility that the faith of the Corinthians might be in vain if Christ has not been raised [Alf, NCBC, NIC2]. Paul is using this ironically to refer to the hypothetical possibility that their faith just might be in vain if it turns out that Christ is not raised [Ho, NIC2].

Trail, R. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of 1 Corinthians 10–16 (2nd ed., p. 261). Dallas, TX: SIL International.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
justaname said:
I preached to you in v. 2 repeats the same line found in v. 1. In v. 1 Paul’s line of thought followed a purely positive track leading to the Corinthians’ salvation. Here Paul goes back to where he started in v. 1 to allow for the frightening possibility that they may have believed in vain, if they fail to hold firmly to the word (here the word refers to the gospel mentioned in v. 1) preached to them by Paul. Those who believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and those who reject that doctrine both agree that people who do not persevere in the gospel have no true claim on its promised blessings and benefits. Paul generally assumes that those who confess Christ will remain faithful to that confession (thus the positive tone of v. 1), but he also acknowledged the tragic truth that not all ended up doing so.
Ciampa, R. E., & Rosner, B. S. (2010). The First Letter to the Corinthians (p. 744). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

15:1–2. The gospel Paul had preached in Corinth (2:1–2) had not changed; but he feared that just as there had been declension in the church concerning the message of Christ crucified and its implication for believers, the same was happening with regard to the message of Christ resurrected. As the former message was an essential element in the Corinthians’ experience of ongoing salvation (the pres. tense of the verb saved focuses on sanctification), so was the latter. To reject bodily resurrection eviscerated “the gospel” and made faith vain (eikē, “without cause” or “without success”; cf. vv. 14, 17) because it had an unworthy object (cf. 15:13, 17). Believing the gospel includes holding firmly to belief in Christ’s resurrection. Unless one holds firmly, his belief is “in vain”; cf. Matt. 13:18–22).
Lowery, D. K. (1985). 1 Corinthians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, p. 542). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

QUESTION—What does εἰκῇ ‘in vain’ mean?
It means that what they believed will not be realized [TH]. Paul addresses the whole membership of the congregation and some may not have a genuine faith [MNTC, TNTC]. This means unless their faith is worthless and they believed without effect [MNTC]. It means believing without due consideration or thoughtlessly [NIGTC]. It means ‘at random’ so that it led nowhere and resulted in nothing [Lns]. It means worthless [AB, Ho]. It means without consideration, heedlessly, rashly [ICC]. It means of no purpose, which would be true if Christ has not been raised [Vn]. The word refers to 15:14 and the possibility that the faith of the Corinthians might be in vain if Christ has not been raised [Alf, NCBC, NIC2]. Paul is using this ironically to refer to the hypothetical possibility that their faith just might be in vain if it turns out that Christ is not raised [Ho, NIC2].

Trail, R. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of 1 Corinthians 10–16 (2nd ed., p. 261). Dallas, TX: SIL International.
At the risk of repeating myself:

Why do you think that God told us, through the mouth of His servant David, not to lean on our own understanding?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Why do you suppose we are admonished not to be wise in our own eyes?

Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Just as our works are as filthy rags before a Holy God, so is all of our much vaunted "scholarship" nothing but foolishness before His omniscience.

If you are truly seeking after wisdom, I will whisper in your ear, and you will know where to find it:

Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

But, I tell you, there will be fine, learned scholars left standing outside the gate, while those with simple, childish hearts are welcomed inside.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


And that's what God has to say about it.

And this is what I am going to tell you, or anyone else who tries to prove Biblical doctrine from some scholarly treatise.

I'm very seriously not impressed with these outside sources.

Heck, I can write a book, myself...and have done so. Anyone with a bit of imagination who can string a sentence together can do it, if they put their mind to it. To sit down and write about your opinions proves absolutely nothing at all except that you have opinions, and perhaps you are a bit better at expressing them than someone else.

And again, Justaname, all you prove with your quotes from other writers is that those people also agree with you. So what? That doesn't mean that you or they are right.
We can pull up other writers who do not agree with you...but what is the point?
If we find a million writers who agree with either one of us, that doesn't mean that we, or our "experts" are right.

As I said earlier, just as all of our good works are as filthy rags before a Holy God, so is all of our scholarship nothing more than foolishness before His omniscience.

At the end of the day, none of those writers can get you into heaven. Only God can do that.
It might be better to forget all those silly scholars, and attend unto what the Lord has to say about it....
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
FHII said:
The arguements should not be based on the reputation of the author, but on the substance behind the arguement.

Are you refusing to discuss the opinion based on the source or.... well, there's nothing else to refuse!

Justaname could've taken that whole quote and put it in his own words. Would you have discussed it then? What he did id simply give due credit.

What horton said was not doctrine in itself. It was comnentary on a doctrine already in the bible, or at least reportedly so.

Agsin, it simply cones off as you avoiding the discussion simply because there isn't a book of horton in the bible. Your rejection isn't based on the merits of what he said.
There is very little point in arguing about someone else's opinion...and very little sense in it.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Barrd said:
At the risk of repeating myself:

Why do you think that God told us, through the mouth of His servant David, not to lean on our own understanding?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Why do you suppose we are admonished not to be wise in our own eyes?

Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Pro 3:8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Just as our works are as filthy rags before a Holy God, so is all of our much vaunted "scholarship" nothing but foolishness before His omniscience.

If you are truly seeking after wisdom, I will whisper in your ear, and you will know where to find it:

Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

But, I tell you, there will be fine, learned scholars left standing outside the gate, while those with simple, childish hearts are welcomed inside.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


And that's what God has to say about it.

And this is what I am going to tell you, or anyone else who tries to prove Biblical doctrine from some scholarly treatise.

I'm very seriously not impressed with these outside sources.

Heck, I can write a book, myself...and have done so. Anyone with a bit of imagination who can string a sentence together can do it, if they put their mind to it. To sit down and write about your opinions proves absolutely nothing at all except that you have opinions, and perhaps you are a bit better at expressing them than someone else.

And again, Justaname, all you prove with your quotes from other writers is that those people also agree with you. So what? That doesn't mean that you or they are right.
We can pull up other writers who do not agree with you...but what is the point?
If we find a million writers who agree with either one of us, that doesn't mean that we, or our "experts" are right.

As I said earlier, just as all of our good works are as filthy rags before a Holy God, so is all of our scholarship nothing more than foolishness before His omniscience.

At the end of the day, none of those writers can get you into heaven. Only God can do that.
It might be better to forget all those silly scholars, and attend unto what the Lord has to say about it....
Please feel free to pull up other people that disagree with the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

You should take your own advise to not lean on your own understanding...
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Barrd said:
There is very little point in arguing about someone else's opinion...and very little sense in it.
Then why are you so determined to convince me of yours?
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
justaname said:
Please feel free to pull up other people that disagree with the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

You should take your own advise to not lean on your own understanding...
It isn't my advice....it is God's advice.
My understanding, such as it is, is completely based on what I read in the Bible. I have no time or interest in pulling up any other source.
We are discussing Christian doctrine. I am very sure that everything I need to know, God has provided for me in His Word. Therefore, I will search the scriptures to see if these things be so.
If it isn't in the Bible, why should it concern me?

(By the way, advice is spelled with a "c", not an "s". Advise with an "s" is pronounced "advize" and is a verb.)
justaname said:
Then why are you so determined to convince me of yours?
You made it obvious some time ago that there is no way anyone is going to convince you of anything.
At this point, I'm only answering you for the benefit of others who may read this forum.

Of course, there is always the vague hope that something that one of us says might get through to you. Miracles still do happen...
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Barrd said:
It isn't my advice....it is God's advice.
My understanding, such as it is, is completely based on what I read in the Bible. I have no time or interest in pulling up any other source.
We are discussing Christian doctrine. I am very sure that everything I need to know, God has provided for me in His Word. Therefore, I will search the scriptures to see if these things be so.
If it isn't in the Bible, why should it concern me?

(By the way, advice is spelled with a "c", not an "s". Advise with an "s" is pronounced "advize" and is a verb.)

You made it obvious some time ago that there is no way anyone is going to convince you of anything.
At this point, I'm only answering you for the benefit of others who may read this forum.

Of course, there is always the vague hope that something that one of us says might get through to you. Miracles still do happen...
My point is you are leaning on your own flawed understanding...God has provided everything you need to know in His word. Yet your flawed interpretations have led to flawed understandings of the text. You set yourself up as the sole authority in interpreting the text, and you disregard anyone else...

You lean on your own understanding. You do not heed the Scriptures you ask me to.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
justaname said:
My point is you are leaning on your own flawed understanding...God has provided everything you need to know in His word. Yet your flawed interpretations have led to flawed understandings of the text.
I think its not only flawed interpretations but also a matter of selecting which scriptures to consider. Its pretty tough for someone in Barrd's position to comment on 1 john 2:19. Furthermore, its easy to dismiss anything Paul says because "he's hard to understand" and besides he's a jewish lawyer.