Strong Delusion
- Thread starter Justin Mangonel
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The death and raising occurred at baptism. If we endure in the faith, our bodies will be resurrected at the last day.Episkopos said:
I don't know what you mean by your questions; except for holy water, the answer of which is, no.Episkopos said:
You ARE kidding, right? Paul died to himself on a daily basis, I guess he didn't understand there was nothing more he had to do, there was no need for him to pursue in order to reach the prize!ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
A person does not "die" and are completely mature in one day, it's why James and Peter said to persevere! We are in a race! Do you see how one thing builds upon another in this verse?
2 Peter 1:6 Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
In GOD's eyes, believers' sinful flesh dies when they are baptized into Christ. And he creates in each believer a new spirit that they can serve him in holiness, and promises to raise them from the dead if they persevere in the faith. I can't make it much simpler than that.Levi said:
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Sounds like a nice fantasy! Like Peter Pan! Just believe it and you got it...a positional holiness for a sinful believer. What a scam!!! Do you really think this will fool God...He is ALL seeing after all?
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Then how does water make you holy?
You really don't understand anything about the cross and the gospel. You read a christian book and wear Christian clothes, but haven't yet come to a knowledge of the truth.Episkopos said:
Water made OT priests holy because that is the way GOD decided to do it. It is a shadow of the reality of being cleansed and sanctified by the gentle washing of water of the word in spirit in Christ.
... Christ ... loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
You wear pretend clothes of righteousness that you think only God is blind to. There is a story about the emperor's new clothes...like the positional platform. People are afraid to point out the emperor is buck naked.
So good luck with that!
Water did not make the OT priests holy, go reread what God said about the requirement in their hearts.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Thou shalt also make a laver [of] brass, and his foot [also of] brass, to wash [withal]: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, [even] to him and to his seed throughout their generations. Exodus 30:18-21Levi said:
The OT is physical......the NT is spiritual.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
However, God has always required a humble and contrite heart.
"The OT is physical......the NT is spiritual."...Levi
The exact same Holy Spirit & the exact same unchanging Lord Jesus & the exact same Father of lights ruled in the Old Testament, & the Old World, as He does today. I understand that you are referring to the Law, & the performing of rituals mandated by God..which the Lord held very highly, as it referred to His Holiness in types & shadows, but this is how He chose to reveal himself & His nature.
Remember though, that the Law came through Moses...about 600 years after Abraham left Ur by FAITH....& God revealed Himself multiple times in various ways that can only be described by us mortals as Spiritual....by the Father of Spirits. The time of the Old Testament, that began on the first passover when Israelites in Egypt were commanded to anoint their doorposts with the blood of the lamb initiated it, & it was expanded upon through Moses & Aaron....but it was intensly Spiritual...when the angel of death killed the firstborn of Egypt....& with multiple Theophanies....God appearing to men & executing awesome miracles....as it has always been.
Enoch, the 7th from Adam, never saw death.....Kinda Spiritual I would think....Noah...the father of faith, Abraham....The Lord appearing daily in the cloud & the pillar leading & following the tribes of Israel....the prophets....& the acts of God rebuking armies, stopping time & guys like Samson. Can you imagine how fast you would have to run to catch 300 foxes? & how rugged you would have to be to tie their tails together?.....& then light torches in their rears & set them in a field?...without getting chewed to death?....or how heavy the iron gates of Gaza were?...possibly tons.
No more or less spiritual than He is today...& in these last days He will prove it.
The exact same Holy Spirit & the exact same unchanging Lord Jesus & the exact same Father of lights ruled in the Old Testament, & the Old World, as He does today. I understand that you are referring to the Law, & the performing of rituals mandated by God..which the Lord held very highly, as it referred to His Holiness in types & shadows, but this is how He chose to reveal himself & His nature.
Remember though, that the Law came through Moses...about 600 years after Abraham left Ur by FAITH....& God revealed Himself multiple times in various ways that can only be described by us mortals as Spiritual....by the Father of Spirits. The time of the Old Testament, that began on the first passover when Israelites in Egypt were commanded to anoint their doorposts with the blood of the lamb initiated it, & it was expanded upon through Moses & Aaron....but it was intensly Spiritual...when the angel of death killed the firstborn of Egypt....& with multiple Theophanies....God appearing to men & executing awesome miracles....as it has always been.
Enoch, the 7th from Adam, never saw death.....Kinda Spiritual I would think....Noah...the father of faith, Abraham....The Lord appearing daily in the cloud & the pillar leading & following the tribes of Israel....the prophets....& the acts of God rebuking armies, stopping time & guys like Samson. Can you imagine how fast you would have to run to catch 300 foxes? & how rugged you would have to be to tie their tails together?.....& then light torches in their rears & set them in a field?...without getting chewed to death?....or how heavy the iron gates of Gaza were?...possibly tons.
No more or less spiritual than He is today...& in these last days He will prove it.
Amen! Thanks BrotherTom!Brothertom said:
AW Tozer in part says this about the new vs old cross, and it's truer today than even in his time.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The new cross does not slay the sinner, it redirects him. It gears him into a cleaner and jollier way of living and saves his self-respect. To the "self-assertive" it says "come and assert yourself for Christ". To the egoist it says, "come and do your boasting in the Lord". To the thrill seeker it says, "come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship". The modern message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue, thereby catering to human taste and reasoning.
God offers life, but not an improved old life. The life He offers is life out of death. It stands on the far side of the cross whoever would possess it must pass under the rod. He must repudiate himself and concur in God's just sentence against him.
The event of "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul was speaking of HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. Paul's concept there is not about simple deception like what has happened through history, and by many for today.Justin Mangonel said:
Apostle Paul linked his "strong delusion" idea SPECIFICALLY to the false one he was warning us about that is to appear in Jerusalem for the end of days, pretending to be God Himself (i.e., Christ having returned), and... being given power to do miracles, signs, and wonders on earth that would fool the majority who do not know The LORD.
Thusly, Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" = a SPECIAL EVENT AT ONE POINT OF TIME IN THIS EARTH'S HISTORY
Men's doctrines continually apply wrappers on Paul's "strong delusion" that DO NOT FIT, and have NOTHING to do with the actual event that is to occur once, at the very end of this world when the 'pseudo-Christ' comes that Jesus warned us about.
The early Church fathers looked for that coming Antichrist; they understood this would be for a specific time in this earth's history to end this world with Christ's coming to defeat the Antichrist. How is it that so many theologians today can't hit their fanny with their hand when it comes to properly understanding this today???
Until Satan is cast unto the earth he stands before God day and night telling of our sins... Once Satan is cast to earth... IT IS THEN that God will no longer hear the sins of mankind..
Dear V,
I must disagree with you that the strong delusion is a point in time type thing. I believe it culminates in acceptance of the antichrist but that spirit has been at work since Pauls days. This is the meassage of my essay.
This brings up an interesting point. Some people believe that nothing outside of the words written on the page existed. However, the truth is that these things were written about different things that were greater than what could fit into scripture. It is like saying a tree is tall and green. This is true about the tree but the tree is much more than tall and green. It has roots, it lives a long time, there are different types, you can make things out of it's wood, etc. What the Apsotles did through the Holy Spirit is speak about certain things but did not discribe every possible point about those things. I believe it is much more proper to understand what they said in this way.
Blessings,
Justin
I must disagree with you that the strong delusion is a point in time type thing. I believe it culminates in acceptance of the antichrist but that spirit has been at work since Pauls days. This is the meassage of my essay.
This brings up an interesting point. Some people believe that nothing outside of the words written on the page existed. However, the truth is that these things were written about different things that were greater than what could fit into scripture. It is like saying a tree is tall and green. This is true about the tree but the tree is much more than tall and green. It has roots, it lives a long time, there are different types, you can make things out of it's wood, etc. What the Apsotles did through the Holy Spirit is speak about certain things but did not discribe every possible point about those things. I believe it is much more proper to understand what they said in this way.
Blessings,
Justin
The context of 2 Thes. 2:11 has nothing to do with the church.
Notice that 2 Thes. 2:13 starts with the words "but we." But is a conjunction that indicates distinction.
It is added to statements to show opposition to a preceding statement. It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of.
Observe that 2 Thes 2 verses 1-3a speaks about Christians and then not again until verse 13 where the word but indicates the topic goes back to Christian's.
This means that apostasy or strong delusion will have nothing to do with Christians!
Notice that 2 Thes. 2:13 starts with the words "but we." But is a conjunction that indicates distinction.
It is added to statements to show opposition to a preceding statement. It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of.
Observe that 2 Thes 2 verses 1-3a speaks about Christians and then not again until verse 13 where the word but indicates the topic goes back to Christian's.
This means that apostasy or strong delusion will have nothing to do with Christians!
I don't see how it could be a prophecy that extends over a period of 2000 years. The text is clearly prophetic. In it we have the 'Parousia' or the Day of Christ, the gathering, the revelation of the man of sin, the apostasy, and strong delusion. If it were a prophecy whose fulfillment was extended over 20 centuries it wouldn't be a prophecy at all and would be a false prophecy at that!
"This means that apostasy or strong delusion will have nothing to do with Christians!".Black-Sheep
"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."
Or else....It has everything to do with Christians....We cannot fall away unless we are connected in the first place.
This is a letter TO the Church, addressing them as BROTHERS of Christ.
"Now we beseech you, BRETHREN, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That YOU be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means:..[ Why would he say this unless it be possible?..]
............for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
The STRONG DELUSION might well be that you are saved no matter what! OSAS heresy.
"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."
Or else....It has everything to do with Christians....We cannot fall away unless we are connected in the first place.
This is a letter TO the Church, addressing them as BROTHERS of Christ.
"Now we beseech you, BRETHREN, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That YOU be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means:..[ Why would he say this unless it be possible?..]
............for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
The STRONG DELUSION might well be that you are saved no matter what! OSAS heresy.
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