Pre Tribulation rapture of the Church

Rocky Wiley said:

daq,

Jesus responded to them, that the sons of this age (law) marry. To those (of them) accounted worthy to make it to that age (grace) and to the resurrection (which would be at the time of the destruction of the temple) would now have eternal life.

We today can receive eternal life when we are born again of the water and the Spirit.

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You only prove the fact that the main difference between Preterism and Futurism is the dating of certain prophetic events according to historical, physical, eyes and mind of the flesh theology. However, both are still engaging in varying degrees of one form or another of Dispensationalism. The Preterist says: "I believe Josephus and those writings which recorded that they saw all of the necessary signs and catastrophic events in 70AD with their own eyes of the flesh!" The Futurist then says in rebuttal: "I cannot believe Josephus or anyone else concerning these things being fulfilled because I did not see them with my own eyes of the flesh!" The only other common denominator seems to be the desperate need to have Torah "abolished" (which was the original reason for Dispensationalist teachings to begin with) whether it takes an whole new dispensation, or whether it is a segregated "age of grace" or "church age" sandwiched into an unspecified time frame which comes to an end with "the Rapture" and the return of the "poor Jews" to "the age of the Law" for seven more years of tribulation-holocaust.

In answer to your post then, if indeed you are correct, what does the following "entrance" have to do with anything?

2 Peter 1:1-11 KJV
1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Your "entrance" is "ministered" unto you by another at a later time than when you first believed . . .

daq said:

You only prove the fact that the main difference between Preterism and Futurism is the dating of certain prophetic events according to historical, physical, eyes and mind of the flesh theology. However, both are still engaging in varying degrees of one form or another of Dispensationalism. The Preterist says: "I believe Josephus and those writings which recorded that they saw all of the necessary signs and catastrophic events in 70AD with their own eyes of the flesh!" The Futurist then says in rebuttal: "I cannot believe Josephus or anyone else concerning these things being fulfilled because I did not see them with my own eyes of the flesh!" The only other common denominator seems to be the desperate need to have Torah "abolished" (which was the original reason for Dispensationalist teachings to begin with) whether it takes an whole new dispensation, or whether it is a segregated "age of grace" or "church age" sandwiched into an unspecified time frame which comes to an end with "the Rapture" and the return of the "poor Jews" to "the age of the Law" for seven more years of tribulation-holocaust.

In answer to your post then, if indeed you are correct, what does the following "entrance" have to do with anything?

2 Peter 1:1-11 KJV
1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Your "entrance" is "ministered" unto you by another at a later time than when you first believed . . .

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daq,

All prophecy has been fulfilled.

When reading the bible we have to realize that whoever is writeing is not writeing to you and me. Peter was writeing to other saints that was living at the time he wrote it.

Jesus had told them that judgement would come in their generation and that the destruction of the temple would bring an end and judgement to the unbelieving Jews and those that had turned back to Judism.

Jesus was planning a wedding, but it would not take place until the divorse from the other was complete. Once the wedding took place all the promises made to the early church would come. They were still waiting at the time Peter wrote this letter, that is why it
would be ministered to at a later time, for them.

It is very hard for people today to not read the bible as if it was written to us. If one would stop and ask "to whom was this written and how does it fit with other scripture?". Then understanding begins.

The Old Testament was written to the Jews.

The four Gospels were written about Jesus walking here on earth and explaining to the Jews of that time, what was coming and who he was.

The Epistles were written to the early churches, who were also waiting for Jesus' return.

The book of Revelation is prophecy written in symbolic langage about the coming of Jesus in judgement against the Jews that had rejected him. It only concerns the church members that either turned back to Judism or had lost faith.

The bible was finished with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. There is no prophecy of any other happenings after that. We that are alive today are still living in the age of Grace and it will never end. All promises about eternal life is in effect. We must believe as the scripture says and that would enclude being born again of water and the Spirit. That is necessary because the Spirit is life and we receive that when we are obedient to God's word.

Rocky, when was the second coming, and if it has past, why didn't anybody write about it ?

Rocky Wiley said:

daq,

All prophecy has been fulfilled.

When reading the bible we have to realize that whoever is writeing is not writeing to you and me. Peter was writeing to other saints that was living at the time he wrote it.

Jesus had told them that judgement would come in their generation and that the destruction of the temple would bring an end and judgement to the unbelieving Jews and those that had turned back to Judism.

Jesus was planning a wedding, but it would not take place until the divorse from the other was complete. Once the wedding took place all the promises made to the early church would come. They were still waiting at the time Peter wrote this letter, that is why it
would be ministered to at a later time, for them.

It is very hard for people today to not read the bible as if it was written to us. If one would stop and ask "to whom was this written and how does it fit with other scripture?". Then understanding begins.

The Old Testament was written to the Jews.

The four Gospels were written about Jesus walking here on earth and explaining to the Jews of that time, what was coming and who he was.

The Epistles were written to the early churches, who were also waiting for Jesus' return.

The book of Revelation is prophecy written in symbolic langage about the coming of Jesus in judgement against the Jews that had rejected him. It only concerns the church members that either turned back to Judism or had lost faith.

The bible was finished with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. There is no prophecy of any other happenings after that. We that are alive today are still living in the age of Grace and it will never end. All promises about eternal life is in effect. We must believe as the scripture says and that would enclude being born again of water and the Spirit. That is necessary because the Spirit is life and we receive that when we are obedient to God's word.

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You have the wrong idea of a generation. Every man has four generations like the four seasons of a year which the Father gave to every man under the sun for signs, (late summer is the final harvest each in his or her own appointed times). Why should I listen to you when you clearly take up your position with outsiders not willing to be part of the inner family of God? Should I listen to you or Messiah? The Preterists love to use Mark 13 because it clearly states that Yeshua says these things privately to Peter, James, John, and Andrew, but when they are shown the last statement of the passage, (which they always conveniently ignore) they generally have no answer:

Mark 13:30-37 KJV
30. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

What Yeshua says to them he makes clear that he likewise says TO ALL ~ WATCH!
You say to me: Hey! Come on out here with me in the outer darkness because Yeshua was not speaking to us!
I say to you: Hey! The there is black death out there! Come on in because Yeshua was indeed speaking to you too brother!
Oh yea, and start preparing for that fourth generation wild beast of a lion, bear, leopard, eagle-ra'ah-`orev-raven.

ENOCH2010 said:

Rocky, when was the second coming, and if it has past, why didn't anybody write about it ?

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Enoch,

The second coming was in 70 AD, still in the disciples generation. Since Jesus told the disciples that the destruction of the temple would be the evidence that he had come, we should need any farther truth. However, Josephes, a Jewish historian did write about the tribulation that was going on in Jerusalem for years until the Roman army came in and destroyed the temple. One can read the books of Josephes, The Wars of the Jews, books 4 and 5 deal with Jerusalem.

Rocky Wiley said:

Enoch,

The second coming was in 70 AD, still in the disciples generation. Since Jesus told the disciples that the destruction of the temple would be the evidence that he had come, we should need any farther truth. However, Josephes, a Jewish historian did write about the tribulation that was going on in Jerusalem for years until the Roman army came in and destroyed the temple. One can read the books of Josephes, The Wars of the Jews, books 4 and 5 deal with Jerusalem.

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I've read them both, I have always wondered how Josephus knew so much about what was going on inside the walls Jerusalem while he was outside the walls. Another point since we are talking about Josephus, he didn't write a word about a second coming. The preterits use the writings of Josephus to say all things are past but they don't seem to point to where he wrote about the second coming.

ENOCH2010 said:

I've read them both, I have always wondered how Josephus knew so much about what was going on inside the walls Jerusalem while he was outside the walls. Another point since we are talking about Josephus, he didn't write a word about a second coming. The preterits use the writings of Josephus to say all things are past but they don't seem to point to where he wrote about the second coming.

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Josephus was inside the walls, he was allowed to come and go as he pleased. He was not a Christian nor did he try to speak for the Christians. He does without knowing, write about the tribulation that Jesus spoke about, about the hunger of the people, killing their babies for food, etc.

If you had actually read it you would also know that Josephus spoke of seeing soldiers in charots riding in the sky. He also spoke of the white stones that catapulted into Jerusalem by the Romans that weighed a talent, which matches prophecy of hail with weight of a talent.

None of this is proof, but Jesus had told the Jews that if one rose from the grave to explain what hell was like, no one would believe him.

We either belive the bible or we believe man, and we can only believe man if he quotes scripture, not his opinion.

Eric E Stahl said:

God will choose the antichrist and put him in power by causeing everyone that heard the truth of the gospel and rejected Jesus to believe the antichrist's lies.


2 Thessalonians 2:6-12
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Actually, the deceived among Christ's Body who are expecting to be 'raptured' out prior to the Antichrist's coming will be flocking to the Antichrist with thinking he is our Lord Jesus. That is what Apostle's Paul idea of the falling away and strong delusion is about.

Jesus and His Apostles warned His Church about the coming pseudo-Christ for the very end of this world and the trickery he will do upon the deceived, including the deceived in His Church. The LORD is allowing it to see who will listen to Him in His Word of Truth, or will listen to men's doctrines. And apparently many brethren are in danger, just because they hallow men's words, organizational systems and credentials more than the very Word of God in Holy Writ.

Eric E Stahl said:

I have recieved the truth of the gospel of Jesus. I will not be sent strong delusion by God. You don't understand the scripture.

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You may have received Christ Jesus in your heart and been baptized, but IF you heed men's doctrines like the Pre-trib Rapture theory, then you are NOT listening to Him through The Holy Spirit nor in His Holy Writ given by The Holy Spirit. You are already prepared by false prophets to fall away in false worship to the coming Antichrist. My hope is that you will wake up and realize the lie you've believed before you bow to the "another Jesus" that's coming first in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How can I substantiate my warning to you? It's simple.

In several New Testament Scriptures (i.e., Matthew 24), our Lord Jesus warned how deceptive that pseudo-Christ will be, even towards... Christ's own elect servants.


Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs (pseudochristos), and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus warned us about that coming Antichrist for the very end of this world right there. He says that pseudo-Christ (pseudochristos meaning) will work great signs and wonders so powerful in deception that, IF it were possible, it would deceive even His own elect servants.

How powerful a deceptive working is that then? It means many brethren who are not staying on guard and watching, not knowing the times and the seasons of Christ's coming, will probably fall away to believe that pseudo-Christ really is our Lord Jesus having returned. That one won't be our Lord Jesus though.

Per the order of endtime events He gave us in His Word, that pseudo-Christ is to show up at the beginning of the time of "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned in that chapter. So do a little bit of common sense thinking... who will the Pre-Trib School prophets be telling you that one is?

They... will be telling you to get ready to be raptured out, for Christ is come to get you. They will modify their false teaching about being whisked away and tell you to flee to Jerusalem where that pseudo-Christ is going to show up.

Even those on the outside looking in at the doctrines of the Pre-Trib School can see how they've modified their pre-trib ideas over the years to know they will modify their doctrine then also, and most of the deceived they've gotten to believe it won't even peep.

I thought He was going to sneak in and steal the bride

Shabbat shalom, Eric.

Eric E Stahl said:

I have recieved the truth of the gospel of Jesus. I will not be sent strong delusion by God. You don't understand the scripture.

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No, I suspect that you don't know the first thing about the "gospel of Jesus" or "Yeshua`s good news." What HE heralded was the "good news about the Kingdom," not the "death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ." Take a good, honest look at Mark 1:14-15:


Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

Think of WHEN this occurred! This happened EARLY in His first year of offering the Kingdom to the Jews! Who knew, at this time, that Yeshua` was even the Messiah - the Christ - let alone believed it?! Who knew that the Messiah would have to die?! Most believed the Messiah would lead Isra'el to victory over Rome! Who even had a glimmer of hope that the Messiah would be RISING FROM THE DEAD?! ALL of that was foreign to His listeners! And, at the time, He only had a handful of disciples! So, what WAS this "gospel" anyway?

First, remember that "gospel" is just an old English word ("godspell") that means "good news." So, what is this "good news about the Kingdom of God?" The answer is in Isaiah 52:7:


Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (national rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

And, THAT is the "gospel" that Yeshua` heralded (Jesus preached)!

Is THAT what you meant? If not, then you are REALLY talking about God's JUSTIFICATION of an individual! And, you should really be using verses like 2 Cor. 5:21 instead of talking about the "gospel of Jesus" or even "salvation." Romans 10:13, for instance, is not talking about individual justification but is really talking about the NATIONAL RESCUE of Isra'el when our Lord returns and fights for His people.

veteran said:

You may have received Christ Jesus in your heart and been baptized, but IF you heed men's doctrines like the Pre-trib Rapture theory, then you are NOT listening to Him through The Holy Spirit nor in His Holy Writ given by The Holy Spirit. You are already prepared by false prophets to fall away in false worship to the coming Antichrist. My hope is that you will wake up and realize the lie you've believed before you bow to the "another Jesus" that's coming first in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How can I substantiate my warning to you? It's simple.

In several New Testament Scriptures (i.e., Matthew 24), our Lord Jesus warned how deceptive that pseudo-Christ will be, even towards... Christ's own elect servants.

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs (pseudochristos), and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus warned us about that coming Antichrist for the very end of this world right there. He says that pseudo-Christ (pseudochristos meaning) will work great signs and wonders so powerful in deception that, IF it were possible, it would deceive even His own elect servants.

How powerful a deceptive working is that then? It means many brethren who are not staying on guard and watching, not knowing the times and the seasons of Christ's coming, will probably fall away to believe that pseudo-Christ really is our Lord Jesus having returned. That one won't be our Lord Jesus though.

Per the order of endtime events He gave us in His Word, that pseudo-Christ is to show up at the beginning of the time of "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned in that chapter. So do a little bit of common sense thinking... who will the Pre-Trib School prophets be telling you that one is?

They... will be telling you to get ready to be raptured out, for Christ is come to get you. They will modify their false teaching about being whisked away and tell you to flee to Jerusalem where that pseudo-Christ is going to show up.

Even those on the outside looking in at the doctrines of the Pre-Trib School can see how they've modified their pre-trib ideas over the years to know they will modify their doctrine then also, and most of the deceived they've gotten to believe it won't even peep.

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Brother, I strongly doubt whether true believers in the Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) will follow after any pseudochristos. While they may not be ready to undergo the end of the tribulation prior to the Second Coming, I doubt that they will deny their Lord. They will simply be among the first to die, if die they must.

I think it is JUST as wrong for you to suggest that they will succumb to the "Antichrist" as it is for them to suggest that you will somehow miss the "Rapture" or rather, the "Harpazo." They may face tribulation without any preparation, but that doesn't mean that they will deny their Lord. The pseudochristoi may TRY to deceive the very elect (which mostly refers to the Jews and Isra'elis) IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, but that phrase itself suggests that it is NOT possible!

So, don't be overly critical.

Retrobyter said:

The pseudochristoi may TRY to deceive the very elect (which mostly refers to the Jews and Isra'elis) IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, but that phrase itself suggests that it is NOT possible!

So, don't be overly critical.

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Nice how you wrote "pseudochristoi" which is plural and correct because there are many false Christs and antichrists which go out from among the body of Messiah, being not of us but of the world after all. However, (and since you quote so much Transliterated material should you not know this?) your assumptions concerning the statement from Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 are flawed. Both passages employ the exact same phrase "ei-dunaton" meaning "IF POSSIBLE" rather than "IF it were POSSIBLE" as is generally rendered. Look in a KJV physical Bible and you will see that "it were" should be in italics meaning that it was injected into the text for "the ease of the flow of the translation" into English. The statement "ei" (GSN#1487) "dunaton" (GSN#1415) simply states "if possible" (they will deceive you) and implies no such thing as that "the elect cannot be deceived" as you have suggested.

Matthew 24:24 TUA
24. Egerthesontai gar pseudoChristoi kai pseudoprofetai kaidosousin semeia megala kai terata hoste planesai, eidunaton, kai tous eklektous.

Matthew 24:24 KJV
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22 TUA
22. Egerthesontai gar pseudoChristoi kai pseudoprofetai kaidosousin semeia kai terata pros to apoplanan, eidunaton, tous eklektous.

Mark 13:22 KJV
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

In fact who is easier to deceive than the one who believes he cannot be deceived?

Eric E Stahl said:

This is how my Jesus will come. I don't think I would be fooled.
Matthew 24:27
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

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If you think our Lord Jesus is coming prior to the Antichrist/pseudo-Christ, then you are already... fooled. That just so happens to be what the Pre-Trib School is teaching, i.e., to fly away with the first supernatural messiah that shows up.

Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Eric.



No, I suspect that you don't know the first thing about the "gospel of Jesus" or "Yeshua`s good news." What HE heralded was the "good news about the Kingdom," not the "death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ." Take a good, honest look at Mark 1:14-15:


Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

Think of WHEN this occurred! This happened EARLY in His first year of offering the Kingdom to the Jews! Who knew, at this time, that Yeshua` was even the Messiah - the Christ - let alone believed it?! Who knew that the Messiah would have to die?! Most believed the Messiah would lead Isra'el to victory over Rome! Who even had a glimmer of hope that the Messiah would be RISING FROM THE DEAD?! ALL of that was foreign to His listeners! And, at the time, He only had a handful of disciples! So, what WAS this "gospel" anyway?

First, remember that "gospel" is just an old English word ("godspell") that means "good news." So, what is this "good news about the Kingdom of God?" The answer is in Isaiah 52:7:


Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (national rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

And, THAT is the "gospel" that Yeshua` heralded (Jesus preached)!

Is THAT what you meant? If not, then you are REALLY talking about God's JUSTIFICATION of an individual! And, you should really be using verses like 2 Cor. 5:21 instead of talking about the "gospel of Jesus" or even "salvation." Romans 10:13, for instance, is not talking about individual justification but is really talking about the NATIONAL RESCUE of Isra'el when our Lord returns and fights for His people.


Brother, I strongly doubt whether true believers in the Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) will follow after any pseudochristos. While they may not be ready to undergo the end of the tribulation prior to the Second Coming, I doubt that they will deny their Lord. They will simply be among the first to die, if die they must.

I think it is JUST as wrong for you to suggest that they will succumb to the "Antichrist" as it is for them to suggest that you will somehow miss the "Rapture" or rather, the "Harpazo." They may face tribulation without any preparation, but that doesn't mean that they will deny their Lord. The pseudochristoi may TRY to deceive the very elect (which mostly refers to the Jews and Isra'elis) IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, but that phrase itself suggests that it is NOT possible!

So, don't be overly critical.

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Then you doubt our Lord Jesus' Own Words, because that's exactly what He was showing us in the Matt.24:23-26 Scripture which is about the coming of a pseudo-Christ during the "great tribulation" timing He also mentioned there (actually the 7 Signs of the end which parallel His Seals of Revealtion).

The idea of the "very elect" there being almost... deceived reveals how strong that delusion is going to be. That idea of the very elect is put for those of His servants given to know the events of the end. And if it will be a working of deception powerful enough to ALMOST deceive them even, well, that doesn't leave much hope for brethren that aren't staying sober and watching the events of the end He gave His Church.

And one who is being taught to 'fly away' prior to the start of the "great tribulation" is in perfect position to be fooled by that pseudo-Christ that is to show up first, working great signs and miracles in the sight of men. This world has never... seen the kind of deceptive working that pseudo-Christ is going to do. So men trying to compare our Lord's warning there with a pope, Mooney, Hinn, etc., aren't even close to the level of miracles causing deception that false messiah is coming to work on earth.

matt 24:23-26 i believe means more then what you say. i believe that what is being referred here is not a complete deception as you put it vet but a gradual deception that if you are not watching and staying in the Word that when a new concept is inserted into a sermon that you will swallow it hook, line, and sinker. deception does not happen all at one time but happens gradually over time. just as God has delegated to us all authority in heaven and on earth to overcome every circumstance and yet so many of us are not victorious because we don't use that authority God gave to us. also faith is another concept that is leaving many christians because they forget who they are in Christ and doubt. then you have those that believe divine healing is for when we get to heaven and not here on earth. or how about speaking in tongues or how God allows bad things happen to us or how the supernatural left with the apostles and is not for today. i could go on and on but i think you get the point. every area is a deception but none of them in and of themselves will keep us from getting into heaven. it is just that the further you get away from the Word of God the greater the chance you have of being decieved.

God bless

Shalom, John.

John S said:

Retrobyter - ONLY 12,000 members of the Elect will be Jewish (Tribe of Judah - the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity -Genesis 49). The rest will consist of Christians.

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Well, sir, that's not right. I can appreciate your opinion, but the truth is that while 12,000 are of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) and are therefore "Jews," the other 132,000 are of other tribes of Isra'el, not just "Christians," which primarily consist of Goyim (Gentiles). This is EXPLICITLY stated in Revelation 7:4-8:


Revelation 7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
KJV

While there may have been a transcription error such that "Levi" ("Leviy") and "Joseph" ("Yoseef") are listed along with "Manasses" ("Manasheh") but "Dan" is not listed; however, they are CLEARLY the tribes of ISRA'EL or "JACOB" ("Ya`aqov")!

And, it is NOT quite right that Judah is the "only tribe to have maintained its identity." Haven't you ever known someone whose last name is "Levy" or "Levee" or "Levi?" Ever known a "Cohan," "Cohen" or Cohn?" "Cohen" is the Hebrew word for "priest." Their surnames identify them as belonging to the tribe of "Leviy." Haven't you ever heard of someone surnamed "Reuben" or "Benjamin" or "Asher" or "Simeon" or "Simon?" They may not have OFFICIAL records of being from a particular tribe of Isra'el, but their surname identifies them as coming from that tribe. So, don't be too quick to write them off. The Gentile believers most often called "Christians" are to be found in the next verse:

Revelation 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

This "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" are the Goyim (Gentiles).

Retrobyter - Jacob prophecized that Judah would be the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity. I'm going to assume that you are not calling him a liar or that God gave him wrong information.
According to all of the history books - and they don't even have to be religious, the northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians. The people were exiled and they were NEVER allowed to return. Today, they are known as the Lost Tribes of Israel. Their descendants went somewhere. They lost their Jewish identities and settled elsewhere - Europe, the Americas, and elsewhere.
Dan is not mentioned in Revelations because the antichrist will come from Dan.
God KNOWS where the Lost Tribes of Israel are - and they are NOT in Israel and they are NOT Jewish.
As promised to Abraham, his descendants are as plentiful as sand.

Shalom, John.

John S said:

Retrobyter - Jacob prophecized that Judah would be the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity. I'm going to assume that you are not calling him a liar or that God gave him wrong information.
According to all of the history books - and they don't even have to be religious, the northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians. The people were exiled and they were NEVER allowed to return. Today, they are known as the Lost Tribes of Israel. Their descendants went somewhere. They lost their Jewish identities and settled elsewhere - Europe, the Americas, and elsewhere.
Dan is not mentioned in Revelations because the antichrist will come from Dan.
God KNOWS where the Lost Tribes of Israel are - and they are NOT in Israel and they are NOT Jewish.
As promised to Abraham, his descendants are as plentiful as sand.

Click to expand...

Please pay attention to what I said. I said, "They may not have OFFICIAL records of being from a particular tribe of Isra'el, but their surname identifies them as coming from that tribe."

Stick to the Scriptures.

Look at Ezra's record:


Ezra 1:1-8
1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.
6 And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.
7 Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods;
8 Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah.
KJV


Ezra 2:1-65
1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
3 The children of Parosh, two thousand an hundred seventy and two.
4 The children of Shephatiah, three hundred seventy and two.
5 The children of Arah, seven hundred seventy and five.
6 The children of Pahath-moab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.
7 The children of Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four.
8 The children of Zattu, nine hundred forty and five.
9 The children of Zaccai, seven hundred and threescore.
10 The children of Bani, six hundred forty and two.
11 The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and three.
12 The children of Azgad, a thousand two hundred twenty and two.
13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.
14 The children of Bigvai, two thousand fifty and six.
15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
16 The children of Ater of Hezekiah, ninety and eight.
17 The children of Bezai, three hundred twenty and three.
18 The children of Jorah, an hundred and twelve.
19 The children of Hashum, two hundred twenty and three.
20 The children of Gibbar, ninety and five.
21 The children of Bethlehem, an hundred twenty and three.
22 The men of Netophah, fifty and six.
23 The men of Anathoth, an hundred twenty and eight.
24 The children of Azmaveth, forty and two.
25 The children of Kirjath-arim, Chephirah, and Beeroth, seven hundred and forty and three.
26 The children of Ramah and Geba, six hundred twenty and one.
27 The men of Michmas, an hundred twenty and two.
28 The men of Bethel and Ai, two hundred twenty and three.
29 The children of Nebo, fifty and two.
30 The children of Magbish, an hundred fifty and six.
31 The children of the other Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four.
32 The children of Harim, three hundred and twenty.
33 The children of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, seven hundred twenty and five.
34 The children of Jericho, three hundred forty and five.
35 The children of Senaah, three thousand and six hundred and thirty.
36 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
37 The children of Immer, a thousand fifty and two.
38 The children of Pashur, a thousand two hundred forty and seven.
39 The children of Harim, a thousand and seventeen.
40 The Levites: the children of Jeshua and Kadmiel, of the children of Hodaviah, seventy and four.
41 The singers: the children of Asaph, an hundred twenty and eight.
42 The children of the porters: the children of Shallum, the children of Ater, the children of Talmon, the children of Akkub, the children of Hatita, the children of Shobai, in all an hundred thirty and nine.
43 The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the children of Hasupha, the children of Tabbaoth,
44 The children of Keros, the children of Siaha, the children of Padon,
45 The children of Lebanah, the children of Hagabah, the children of Akkub,
46 The children of Hagab, the children of Shalmai, the children of Hanan,
47 The children of Giddel, the children of Gahar, the children of Reaiah,
48 The children of Rezin, the children of Nekoda, the children of Gazzam,
49 The children of Uzza, the children of Paseah, the children of Besai,
50 The children of Asnah, the children of Mehunim, the children of Nephusim,
51 The children of Bakbuk, the children of Hakupha, the children of Harhur,
52 The children of Bazluth, the children of Mehida, the children of Harsha,
53 The children of Barkos, the children of Sisera, the children of Thamah,
54 The children of Neziah, the children of Hatipha.
55 The children of Solomon's servants: the children of Sotai, the children of Sophereth, the children of Peruda,
56 The children of Jaalah, the children of Darkon, the children of Giddel,
57 The children of Shephatiah, the children of Hattil, the children of Pochereth of Zebaim, the children of Ami.
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,
65 Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.
KJV

As you can see from the ones I have highlighted above, these people were listed by the CITIES in which they lived PRIOR to being deported to Bavel (Babylon). They were "children of ..." the various cities! And, many of these cities are NOT cities of the land of Y'hudah! They were cities of the other tribes, i.e. they were NOT Jews!

Later, when Ezra himself goes to Jerusalem, Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the king gives him this letter:



Ezra 7:12-13
12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
KJV

So, it wasn't just Y'hudah that went home when the captivity was released! Furthermore, not everyone, even back then, could show proof of their lineage, even among the priests!

Now, I'm not saying that there weren't MANY of all the tribes of Isra'el who didn't remain in the lands of Persia and the Medes, and these were dispersed yet farther into all the world, but it's not as clear-cut as the 10-tribe theorists believe.

LISTEN CAREFULLY: It is NEVER a good idea to be too dichotomous in your views of the world! Only when comparing God to men is it truly dichotomous.

When the unbelievers compare various degrees of sin among themselves, they see a vast array of various levels of evil. Some no worse than "white lies" or "sowing one's wild oats," and some so bad as "murder," "rape," or "child abuse." But, to God, ALL sin is bad! It's like comparing the ripple voltages of man's "righteousnesses" from stray currents when the voltage is technically "zero" to the millions of volts of God's HOLINESS AND PERFECTION.


So, it is not a good idea to be dichotomous between the Jews and the "Ten Tribes." There were not only the Ten Tribes left behind in the land of Shinar but also some JEWS stayed behind! They frankly had it good in Persia and didn't want to leave! And, there were some of the northern kingdom of Isra'el who returned with Nehemiah and Ezra when they led the captivity home!

Finally, the Jews themselves were dispersed by Rome into all the countries of the Roman Empire in 70 A.D. and 135 A.D. And, when Isra'el made aliyah ("going UP" to Isra'el and Jerusalem) prior to 1948's establishment of the State of Isra'el, ANYONE from the TWELVE tribes of Isra'el could return! They were not technically "Jews" as children of Y'hudah, but they were allowed home WITH the Jews! Even today, the term "Jew" is used for BOTH children of Y'hudah and children of Isra'el NOT of the tribe of Y'hudah!

Take the Ten Tribes doctrine with a grain of salt. While there is some truth to their teaching, it is not PERFECTLY so.