Pre Tribulation rapture of the Church

John S · Jun 17, 2013

Retrobyter - You can choose to believe what you like. I will choose to believe the prophecies of Jacob as it pertained to his sons and his 2 adopted sons. Because Joseph was loyal to God while in Egypt, he was to be greatly rewarded for his loyalty. Their nations would NEVER be conquered. The Jewish nations throughout history have never been powerful nations but 19th Century Great Britain and her "children" (Canada, Australia, etc) have been - along with the 20th and 21st Century U.S.
I believe that Zabulon is Spain, Portugal, and their "children" in South and Central America - and elsewhere.
Judah remained the Jews, along with whatever remnants of other Tribes that there are.
The antichrist will come from Dan, which I believe is Italy. I'm the only one but I am looking for a man from Italy to be the AC.

That means that the Elect will consist of 12,000 Jews and 132,000 Christians - and NONE from Dan.

You don't have to agree with me. In fact neither you nor anyone else will agree with me - but that's O.K.
I put alot of my eschatological stock in Genesis 49.
Genesis 49 makes Revelations less complicated.

veteran · Jun 18, 2013

7angels said:
matt 24:23-26 i believe means more then what you say. i believe that what is being referred here is not a complete deception as you put it vet but a gradual deception that if you are not watching and staying in the Word that when a new concept is inserted into a sermon that you will swallow it hook, line, and sinker. deception does not happen all at one time but happens gradually over time. just as God has delegated to us all authority in heaven and on earth to overcome every circumstance and yet so many of us are not victorious because we don't use that authority God gave to us. also faith is another concept that is leaving many christians because they forget who they are in Christ and doubt. then you have those that believe divine healing is for when we get to heaven and not here on earth. or how about speaking in tongues or how God allows bad things happen to us or how the supernatural left with the apostles and is not for today. i could go on and on but i think you get the point. every area is a deception but none of them in and of themselves will keep us from getting into heaven. it is just that the further you get away from the Word of God the greater the chance you have of being decieved.

God bless

If you keep on going with that line of thought, you might even begin to think you can save yourself.

Rev 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(KJV)

There is a GREAT... penalty that will come to those who worship that beast and his image, and receiveth the mark of his name. The time for that event is not here yet today.

Will you try to override God's Own judgments too per His Word? Will you be God instead of Him? Then why do you seek to downplay the coming events upon the whole world?

It would appear that you, like many brethren, are afraid. Today is NOT the time to have fear, but to be prepared to make a stand for our Lord Jesus Christ right in the face of His enemies. If you believe our Lord Jesus is with you, then you have no reason to fear the coming events of the "great tribulation" He warned us of, a time of tribulation that has never ever been on this earth before, nor a time ever like it again.

John S said:
Retrobyter - Jacob prophecized that Judah would be the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity. I'm going to assume that you are not calling him a liar or that God gave him wrong information.
According to all of the history books - and they don't even have to be religious, the northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians. The people were exiled and they were NEVER allowed to return. Today, they are known as the Lost Tribes of Israel. Their descendants went somewhere. They lost their Jewish identities and settled elsewhere - Europe, the Americas, and elsewhere.
Dan is not mentioned in Revelations because the antichrist will come from Dan.
God KNOWS where the Lost Tribes of Israel are - and they are NOT in Israel and they are NOT Jewish.
As promised to Abraham, his descendants are as plentiful as sand.

It's no use John. The Jewish doctrines of Judaism which Retrobyter follows explicitly teaches against the idea of the ten lost tribes of Israel loosing their Israelite identity and becoming as Gentiles living among Gentiles, especially setup in the West under The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are most correct, for the end only 12,000 of the tribe of Judah will be 'sealed' by God in prep for the coming great tribulation (as per Rev.7). Included with Judah though is also 12,000 of Benjamin, and 12,000 of Levi, which were also joined with Judah long ago as Jews. So that's 36,000 Jews total.

The other 9 tribes of Israel mentioned there in Rev.7 are 12,000 each, making the total number of ten lost tribe Israelites sealed with God's seal at 108,000. I would say most all... of these are Christians who think they are Gentiles.

So one of the secrets of Judaism's hatred of the Goyim (Gentiles) per their occult Babylonian Talmud sages, is some of those sage "tares", or false Jews among the "house of Judah", well know the Goyim include many Israelites. And they have especially taught true Judah to hate them and hold them with disdain. If you'll notice a lot of Retrobyter's attitude in his writings against us Christians, that false Talmudic attitude against Gentile Christians shows up in places.

John S · Jun 18, 2013

Veteran - How does a person deny KNOWN history? Its like denying that a person by the name of George Washington ever existed - or Abraham Lincoln. History is history.
As far as the number of Jews vs. Christians, I'll continue to say that there will only be 12,000 Jews - but I'll leave it up to God to decide the actual number. HE will be choosing the actual members of the Elect.

iamlamad · Jun 18, 2013

John S said:
Retrobyter - You can choose to believe what you like. I will choose to believe the prophecies of Jacob as it pertained to his sons and his 2 adopted sons. Because Joseph was loyal to God while in Egypt, he was to be greatly rewarded for his loyalty. Their nations would NEVER be conquered. The Jewish nations throughout history have never been powerful nations but 19th Century Great Britain and her "children" (Canada, Australia, etc) have been - along with the 20th and 21st Century U.S.
I believe that Zabulon is Spain, Portugal, and their "children" in South and Central America - and elsewhere.
Judah remained the Jews, along with whatever remnants of other Tribes that there are.
The antichrist will come from Dan, which I believe is Italy. I'm the only one but I am looking for a man from Italy to be the AC.

That means that the Elect will consist of 12,000 Jews and 132,000 Christians - and NONE from Dan.

You don't have to agree with me. In fact neither you nor anyone else will agree with me - but that's O.K.
I put alot of my eschatological stock in Genesis 49.
Genesis 49 makes Revelations less complicated.

You are right, I don't believe you. When Israel was scattered - even considering the first, when Assyria took many captive, what percentage of "locals" were there to those carried away captive? I would take a wild guess and say 95% locals (Gentiles) and 5% of those carried there as slaves from Israel. And this is probably still favoring Israel. So your theory is that the 5% or less after centuries of time, became the majority or perhaps the all? That would really stretch the imagination! In most societies it would be very damaging to character to marry a slave....so it seems reasonable that there was not much intermingling for at least the first one or two generations. Perhaps Assyria and Babylon were were kind to these carried away and they were NOT made into slaves. Still the % of Israel versus the % of Gentiles would certainly suggest that after nearly 2000 years, there would hardly be a trace of Israeli DNA left. In fact, I have read much of the DNA studies done, and it seems Jewish blood was not even mentioned.

Just my opinion.
Lamad

veteran said:
If you keep on going with that line of thought, you might even begin to think you can save yourself.

Rev 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(KJV)

There is a GREAT... penalty that will come to those who worship that beast and his image, and receiveth the mark of his name. The time for that event is not here yet today.

Will you try to override God's Own judgments too per His Word? Will you be God instead of Him? Then why do you seek to downplay the coming events upon the whole world?

It would appear that you, like many brethren, are afraid. Today is NOT the time to have fear, but to be prepared to make a stand for our Lord Jesus Christ right in the face of His enemies. If you believe our Lord Jesus is with you, then you have no reason to fear the coming events of the "great tribulation" He warned us of, a time of tribulation that has never ever been on this earth before, nor a time ever like it again.

It's no use John. The Jewish doctrines of Judaism which Retrobyter follows explicitly teaches against the idea of the ten lost tribes of Israel loosing their Israelite identity and becoming as Gentiles living among Gentiles, especially setup in the West under The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are most correct, for the end only 12,000 of the tribe of Judah will be 'sealed' by God in prep for the coming great tribulation (as per Rev.7). Included with Judah though is also 12,000 of Benjamin, and 12,000 of Levi, which were also joined with Judah long ago as Jews. So that's 36,000 Jews total.

The other 9 tribes of Israel mentioned there in Rev.7 are 12,000 each, making the total number of ten lost tribe Israelites sealed with God's seal at 108,000. I would say most all... of these are Christians who think they are Gentiles.

So one of the secrets of Judaism's hatred of the Goyim (Gentiles) per their occult Babylonian Talmud sages, is some of those sage "tares", or false Jews among the "house of Judah", well know the Goyim include many Israelites. And they have especially taught true Judah to hate them and hold them with disdain. If you'll notice a lot of Retrobyter's attitude in his writings against us Christians, that false Talmudic attitude against Gentile Christians shows up in places.

Wow! Veteran, for once I agree with you in part! There is a scripture that backs up what you say: the Jews HATED the Gentiles.

Acts 22
20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death,[b] and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ 21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’”
22 And they listened to him until this word, and then they raised their voices and said, “Away with such a fellow from the earth, for he is not fit to live!” 23 Then, as they cried out and tore off their clothes and threw dust into the air,

Just the mention of the word "Gentiles" sent them into a frenzy and the intent of murder!

Lamad

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, John.

Please pay attention to what I said. I said, "They may not have OFFICIAL records of being from a particular tribe of Isra'el, but their surname identifies them as coming from that tribe."

Stick to the Scriptures.

Look at Ezra's record:

Ezra 1:1-8
1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.
6 And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.
7 Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the Lord, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods;
8 Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah.
KJV

Ezra 2:1-65
1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:
3 The children of Parosh, two thousand an hundred seventy and two.
4 The children of Shephatiah, three hundred seventy and two.
5 The children of Arah, seven hundred seventy and five.
6 The children of Pahath-moab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.
7 The children of Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four.
8 The children of Zattu, nine hundred forty and five.
9 The children of Zaccai, seven hundred and threescore.
10 The children of Bani, six hundred forty and two.
11 The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and three.
12 The children of Azgad, a thousand two hundred twenty and two.
13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.
14 The children of Bigvai, two thousand fifty and six.
15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
16 The children of Ater of Hezekiah, ninety and eight.
17 The children of Bezai, three hundred twenty and three.
18 The children of Jorah, an hundred and twelve.
19 The children of Hashum, two hundred twenty and three.
20 The children of Gibbar, ninety and five.
21 The children of Bethlehem, an hundred twenty and three.
22 The men of Netophah, fifty and six.
23 The men of Anathoth, an hundred twenty and eight.
24 The children of Azmaveth, forty and two.
25 The children of Kirjath-arim, Chephirah, and Beeroth, seven hundred and forty and three.
26 The children of Ramah and Geba, six hundred twenty and one.
27 The men of Michmas, an hundred twenty and two.
28 The men of Bethel and Ai, two hundred twenty and three.
29 The children of Nebo, fifty and two.
30 The children of Magbish, an hundred fifty and six.
31 The children of the other Elam, a thousand two hundred fifty and four.
32 The children of Harim, three hundred and twenty.
33 The children of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, seven hundred twenty and five.
34 The children of Jericho, three hundred forty and five.
35 The children of Senaah, three thousand and six hundred and thirty.
36 The priests: the children of Jedaiah, of the house of Jeshua, nine hundred seventy and three.
37 The children of Immer, a thousand fifty and two.
38 The children of Pashur, a thousand two hundred forty and seven.
39 The children of Harim, a thousand and seventeen.
40 The Levites: the children of Jeshua and Kadmiel, of the children of Hodaviah, seventy and four.
41 The singers: the children of Asaph, an hundred twenty and eight.
42 The children of the porters: the children of Shallum, the children of Ater, the children of Talmon, the children of Akkub, the children of Hatita, the children of Shobai, in all an hundred thirty and nine.
43 The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the children of Hasupha, the children of Tabbaoth,
44 The children of Keros, the children of Siaha, the children of Padon,
45 The children of Lebanah, the children of Hagabah, the children of Akkub,
46 The children of Hagab, the children of Shalmai, the children of Hanan,
47 The children of Giddel, the children of Gahar, the children of Reaiah,
48 The children of Rezin, the children of Nekoda, the children of Gazzam,
49 The children of Uzza, the children of Paseah, the children of Besai,
50 The children of Asnah, the children of Mehunim, the children of Nephusim,
51 The children of Bakbuk, the children of Hakupha, the children of Harhur,
52 The children of Bazluth, the children of Mehida, the children of Harsha,
53 The children of Barkos, the children of Sisera, the children of Thamah,
54 The children of Neziah, the children of Hatipha.
55 The children of Solomon's servants: the children of Sotai, the children of Sophereth, the children of Peruda,
56 The children of Jaalah, the children of Darkon, the children of Giddel,
57 The children of Shephatiah, the children of Hattil, the children of Pochereth of Zebaim, the children of Ami.
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,
65 Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women.
KJV

As you can see from the ones I have highlighted above, these people were listed by the CITIES in which they lived PRIOR to being deported to Bavel (Babylon). They were "children of ..." the various cities! And, many of these cities are NOT cities of the land of Y'hudah! They were cities of the other tribes, i.e. they were NOT Jews!

Later, when Ezra himself goes to Jerusalem, Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the king gives him this letter:

Ezra 7:12-13
12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
KJV

So, it wasn't just Y'hudah that went home when the captivity was released! Furthermore, not everyone, even back then, could show proof of their lineage, even among the priests!

Now, I'm not saying that there weren't MANY of all the tribes of Isra'el who didn't remain in the lands of Persia and the Medes, and these were dispersed yet farther into all the world, but it's not as clear-cut as the 10-tribe theorists believe.

LISTEN CAREFULLY: It is NEVER a good idea to be too dichotomous in your views of the world! Only when comparing God to men is it truly dichotomous.

When the unbelievers compare various degrees of sin among themselves, they see a vast array of various levels of evil. Some no worse than "white lies" or "sowing one's wild oats," and some so bad as "murder," "rape," or "child abuse." But, to God, ALL sin is bad! It's like comparing the ripple voltages of man's "righteousnesses" from stray currents when the voltage is technically "zero" to the millions of volts of God's HOLINESS AND PERFECTION.

So, it is not a good idea to be dichotomous between the Jews and the "Ten Tribes." There were not only the Ten Tribes left behind in the land of Shinar but also some JEWS stayed behind! They frankly had it good in Persia and didn't want to leave! And, there were some of the northern kingdom of Isra'el who returned with Nehemiah and Ezra when they led the captivity home!

Finally, the Jews themselves were dispersed by Rome into all the countries of the Roman Empire in 70 A.D. and 135 A.D. And, when Isra'el made aliyah ("going UP" to Isra'el and Jerusalem) prior to 1948's establishment of the State of Isra'el, ANYONE from the TWELVE tribes of Isra'el could return! They were not technically "Jews" as children of Y'hudah, but they were allowed home WITH the Jews! Even today, the term "Jew" is used for BOTH children of Y'hudah and children of Isra'el NOT of the tribe of Y'hudah!

Take the Ten Tribes doctrine with a grain of salt. While there is some truth to their teaching, it is not PERFECTLY so.

I am currently living in Kaifeng, Henan, China. Here in Kaifeng, a short walk of 10 minutes takes to two two Muslim temples and one small area with a sign, "the Kaifeng Jews." They had two synagogues built, but both were destroyed by floods on the Yellow River. They still study only the Old Testament and keep the Jewish feasts. They have been here for centuries. Must of their history has been lost and stolen, but they still have a few artifacts from long ago.

I have read of the Israeli's living in Africa. There are the Sephardi Jews and Mizrahi Jews living in North Africa. There are the Ethiopian Jews, and others. DNA tests have proven some to be descendants of the tribe of Levi.

An interesting verse:

Luke 2:36
36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;

It seems she knew of which tribe she was from.

Lamad

veteran · Jun 20, 2013

John S said:
Veteran - How does a person deny KNOWN history? Its like denying that a person by the name of George Washington ever existed - or Abraham Lincoln. History is history.
As far as the number of Jews vs. Christians, I'll continue to say that there will only be 12,000 Jews - but I'll leave it up to God to decide the actual number. HE will be choosing the actual members of the Elect.

The way one deceived denies known history is by believing something else instead, most often whatever is popular at the time. Simple as that. Many lessons in school history textbooks and popular media outlets don't always align with primary testimonies of people that actually saw or experienced the events. Lincoln himself was not anti-slavery originally (per Lincoln-Douglas debates), until he saw the need to give the federal armies an emotional principle to fight for after their many defeats in the early part of the civil war. Joseph McCarthy was very accurate as the 1990's Venona Project records showed.

The way to know the tribes of Benjamin and Levi are included among the Jews (Judah) is through OT study of 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 18, and 1 and 2 Chronicles. In the beginning of the split of Israel into two kingdoms during Solomon's son Rehoboam king of Judah's reign, the tribe of Benjamin only stood with Judah and the house of David. When Jeroboam king of Israel (northern ten tribes) became king in the northern lands, he setup 2 golden calves in false worship, preventing those of Levi that dwelt among the ten tribes from doing their priestly duites. So the sons of Levi among the ten tribes went back down to Judea and joined with Judah and Benjamin.

This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin.

7angels · Jun 20, 2013

veteran said:
If you keep on going with that line of thought, you might even begin to think you can save yourself.
i would really appreciate it if you would explain what it is i am decieved by. we were talking of matt 24:23-26 and what it meant to each of us. and now you quote revelations 14:9-12 and i have no idea how you got from matt 24:23-26 to rev 14:9-12.

Rev 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(KJV)

There is a GREAT... penalty that will come to those who worship that beast and his image, and receiveth the mark of his name. The time for that event is not here yet today.

Will you try to override God's Own judgments too per His Word? Will you be God instead of Him? Then why do you seek to downplay the coming events upon the whole world?
what judgements are you referring too? How did you come to the conclusion that i am taking God's place? how am i down playing events that are coming? if you mean by what i see as matt 24:23-26 meaning then please tell me where i am wrong and don't assume please that i can read your mind.

It would appear that you, like many brethren, are afraid. Today is NOT the time to have fear, but to be prepared to make a stand for our Lord Jesus Christ right in the face of His enemies. If you believe our Lord Jesus is with you, then you have no reason to fear the coming events of the "great tribulation" He warned us of, a time of tribulation that has never ever been on this earth before, nor a time ever like it again.
again where do you get off assuming i am afraid? if you are asking if i am afraid of the great trib then the answer is no i am not afraid. but i do fear for those that will be going through the great trib because unlike us christians today who have all power over principalities and powers of the devil, the converts who go through the Great trib won't have the ability we have in this new covenant. there satan will be given power over the saints and not the other way around. but according to the Word it is the church who Jesus gave his authority to go to the nations and To preach the gospel to the poor, heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed.

now i know of no scripture that states the great trib saints will be back under the old covenant law but the Word does imply such a change. because old covenant before Christ died for us and the earth was under satan's rule still. according to revelations for those 3 1/2 years to maybe include all 7 years of the great trib the world will be back under satan's rule. thus for the church to go through something where we were given all power and then have it taken away from the church does not sound like something God would do.

God bless

veteran · Jun 20, 2013

7angels said:
If you keep on going with that line of thought, you might even begin to think you can save yourself.
i would really appreciate it if you would explain what it is i am decieved by. we were talking of matt 24:23-26 and what it meant to each of us. and now you quote revelations 14:9-12 and i have no idea how you got from matt 24:23-26 to rev 14:9-12.

Rev 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(KJV)

There is a GREAT... penalty that will come to those who worship that beast and his image, and receiveth the mark of his name. The time for that event is not here yet today.

Will you try to override God's Own judgments too per His Word? Will you be God instead of Him? Then why do you seek to downplay the coming events upon the whole world?
what judgements are you referring too? How did you come to the conclusion that i am taking God's place? how am i down playing events that are coming? if you mean by what i see as matt 24:23-26 meaning then please tell me where i am wrong and don't assume please that i can read your mind.

It would appear that you, like many brethren, are afraid. Today is NOT the time to have fear, but to be prepared to make a stand for our Lord Jesus Christ right in the face of His enemies. If you believe our Lord Jesus is with you, then you have no reason to fear the coming events of the "great tribulation" He warned us of, a time of tribulation that has never ever been on this earth before, nor a time ever like it again.
again where do you get off assuming i am afraid? if you are asking if i am afraid of the great trib then the answer is no i am not afraid. but i do fear for those that will be going through the great trib because unlike us christians today who have all power over principalities and powers of the devil, the converts who go through the Great trib won't have the ability we have in this new covenant. there satan will be given power over the saints and not the other way around. but according to the Word it is the church who Jesus gave his authority to go to the nations and To preach the gospel to the poor, heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed.

now i know of no scripture that states the great trib saints will be back under the old covenant law but the Word does imply such a change. because old covenant before Christ died for us and the earth was under satan's rule still. according to revelations for those 3 1/2 years to maybe include all 7 years of the great trib the world will be back under satan's rule. thus for the church to go through something where we were given all power and then have it taken away from the church does not sound like something God would do.

God bless

Click to expand...

Well, look at what you said about Christ's warning of Matt.24:23-26, and I quote,

"matt 24:23-26 i believe means more then what you say. i believe that what is being referred here is not a complete deception as you put it vet but a gradual deception that if you are not watching and staying in the Word that when a new concept is inserted into a sermon that you will swallow it hook, line, and sinker. deception does not happen all at one time but happens gradually over time."

And what those verses speak about...
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

Is there a veil over your mind that you cannot grasp our Lord Jesus is giving a very 'specific' type of warning there???

I mean, He is emphatically warning that if someone comes up to you and says something like, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", and then is commanding us... what to do. He said, "believe it not".

And to make certain... we understand, He gave that specific warning a 2nd time in the 26th verse, in more detail.

That specific warning is different than His warning of Matt.24:5 where He said many will come in His Name and deceive many. WHY... is this section warning different?

It's because of the Matt.24:24 subject of this specific idea of a false messiah that comes to not just say... he is The Christ, but actually DO great signs and miracles that would almost deceive even His own very elect servants. And I mean His servants that He already 'owns' and can direct out of trouble if He needs to. If they would almost be deceived by this pseudo-Christ of these 23-26 verses, that means a much, much greater power of deception that those of v.5.

Apostle John made this same distinction too in 1 John 2:18 of how they heard that antichrist shall come (i.e. a singular final Antichrist figure), but that there were already "many antichrists" at work. That's a comparison like a Big Apple vs. many little apples. Well, this Matt.24:23-26 section warning is about the working of a Big Apple. The Matt.24:5 warning is about the working of little apples. We today have yet to see... the working by the coming Big Apple. All we've seen are the little apples at work to deceive, for there have indeed been many just in my generation that having been claiming to be Christ. And what kind of works have those little apples shown to deceive with? Words mainly, big speeches, soothing tongues, status, wealth, etc. The coming Big Apple is going to be working wonders and miracles on the level of power that even Christ's elect might believe he is God, if it were possible. That's the difference.

KevinMiller · Jul 31, 2013

Pre-Tribulation Rapture:
The most popularly taught view among Christian faiths is known as the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or “Pre-Trib” theory. Those who accept this perspective believe the Rapture will happen just before the tribulation period, at the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel. The Rapture will usher in the final seven years of this age. True followers of Jesus Christ will be transformed into their spiritual bodies in the Rapture and taken from the Earth to be in Heaven with God. Non-believers will be left behind to face severe tribulation as the antichrist prepares to take his place as the Beast half way through the seven year period. According to this view, non-believers will still come to accept Christ, in spite of the Church’s absence during this time, however, these new Christians will endure extreme persecution, to the point of death by beheading.

veteran · Jul 31, 2013

KevinMiller said:
Pre-Tribulation Rapture:
The most popularly taught view among Christian faiths is known as the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or “Pre-Trib” theory. Those who accept this perspective believe the Rapture will happen just before the tribulation period, at the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel. The Rapture will usher in the final seven years of this age. True followers of Jesus Christ will be transformed into their spiritual bodies in the Rapture and taken from the Earth to be in Heaven with God. Non-believers will be left behind to face severe tribulation as the antichrist prepares to take his place as the Beast half way through the seven year period. According to this view, non-believers will still come to accept Christ, in spite of the Church’s absence during this time, however, these new Christians will endure extreme persecution, to the point of death by beheading.

No need to push that 'junk' here. Many have already been warned about that false doctrine from men.

That doctrine began among the Irvingite movement in 1830's Great Britain, and those like John Darby and the Brethren of Britain later picked it up and ran with it, then those like Scofield brought it to the Americas. For over 1800 years, none of the Christian Church ever... taught nor held that doctrine. You will not... find that doctrine spoken of by any of the Church historians prior to that time in Great Britain.

There is NO Bible Scripture that supports that false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine that was made popular in 1830's Britain. ALL... Bible Scripture is pointing to Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... the great tribulation He mentioned in Matt.24. Even in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Christ made a direct statement to that effect.

You have been lied to and you don't even know it.

rockytopva · Aug 6, 2013

"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming" (Matthew 24:38-42).

The Bible also teaches that all hell is going to break loose during the tribulation. People won't be busy eating, drinking, and marrying. They will be in great distress (Luke 21:25). There was no tribulation in the days of Noah and Lot. They were going about their daily lives, eating, drinking, and marrying. Jesus is coming like a thief for his church, at a time when nobody is expecting him. If Christians are on the earth during the tribulation, then everyone will be counting the days and the hours until the end of the seven year tribulation. But Jesus says He is coming like a thief, at a time that is completely unexpected.

veteran · Aug 7, 2013

rockytopva said:
"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming" (Matthew 24:38-42).

I wish you'd learn the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture parallel to that Messsage Christ gave about the end of days, with the symbolic flood of waters that comes out of the serpent's mouth.

And especially recognize what Jesus answered His disciples at the end of the Luke 17 Chapter when they asked Him "Where, Lord?", about where the one in the field, and one grinding are 'taken' to.

Here was Christ's answer:

Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
(KJV)

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

rockytopva said:
The Bible also teaches that all hell is going to break loose during the tribulation. People won't be busy eating, drinking, and marrying. They will be in great distress (Luke 21:25). There was no tribulation in the days of Noah and Lot. They were going about their daily lives, eating, drinking, and marrying. Jesus is coming like a thief for his church, at a time when nobody is expecting him. If Christians are on the earth during the tribulation, then everyone will be counting the days and the hours until the end of the seven year tribulation. But Jesus says He is coming like a thief, at a time that is completely unexpected.

No, The Bible does NOT... teach that "all hell is going to break loose during the tribulation." Instead, The Bible teaches that it will be a time of "Peace and safety" on earth, although it will be a false peace, because by Satan and his hosts on earth.

It's the Pre-Trib Rapture spin-doctors that teach the "great tribulation" is going to be all out WWIII. They do that as a fear tactic to try and SCARE the believer into accepting their false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine.

BLACK SHEEP · Aug 7, 2013

No, The Bible does NOT... teach that "all hell is going to break loose during the tribulation." Instead, The Bible teaches that it will be a time of "Peace and safety" on earth, although it will be a false peace, because by Satan and his hosts on earth.
It's the Pre-Trib Rapture spin-doctors that teach the "great tribulation" is going to be all out WWIII. They do that as a fear tactic to try and SCARE the believer into accepting their false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

To say that the tribulation is a time of peace and safety contradicts what we already know about "tribulation!"
If people are saying peace and safety that means we are in a time of trouble. I don't think the verse implies there will be peace and safety. I think it implies people are wanting it. That interpretation aligns with all the other things we know written in prophecy about the tribulation.
It really makes no sense that tribulation would be a time of peace and safety.

iamlamad · Aug 9, 2013

veteran said:
No need to push that 'junk' here. Many have already been warned about that false doctrine from men.

That doctrine began among the Irvingite movement in 1830's Great Britain, and those like John Darby and the Brethren of Britain later picked it up and ran with it, then those like Scofield brought it to the Americas. For over 1800 years, none of the Christian Church ever... taught nor held that doctrine. You will not... find that doctrine spoken of by any of the Church historians prior to that time in Great Britain.

There is NO Bible Scripture that supports that false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine that was made popular in 1830's Britain. ALL... Bible Scripture is pointing to Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... the great tribulation He mentioned in Matt.24. Even in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Christ made a direct statement to that effect.

You have been lied to and you don't even know it.

Veteran, sometimes you are absolutely comical! The pretrib rapture was first taught by PAUL! And you have totally missed it. There IS bible proof, but you have chosen to IGNORE it. You know as well as I do that the great crowd too large to number is in chapter 7. What you seem to ignore is that this crowd is the raptured church, seen in heaven BEFORE John starts the 70th week. And you still insist that the gathering in Matt. is the rapture. It is NOT. How can you even think that will be a time of peace and safety? The world has been destroyed, and most of the sinners in it! NO ONE will be thinking peace and safety then. And FOR SURE Paul's rapture gathers from the earth - but you ignore that too. So WHO is being lied to?

Lamad

veteran said:
No, The Bible does NOT... teach that "all hell is going to break loose during the tribulation." Instead, The Bible teaches that it will be a time of "Peace and safety" on earth, although it will be a false peace, because by Satan and his hosts on earth.

It's the Pre-Trib Rapture spin-doctors that teach the "great tribulation" is going to be all out WWIII. They do that as a fear tactic to try and SCARE the believer into accepting their false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine.

Veteran, you seem usually to be wrong, but here you are WAY WRONG. In speaking of the Day of the Lord, God said He was going to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth! And you wish to compare destroying the earth with peace and safety?
How about trumpet 1 that destroys 1/3 of all trees and all the grass. Will people be thinking peace and safety?
How about trumpet 2 where a third of the sea turns to blood? Will people be thinking peace and safety?
How about trumpet 3 where a third of the fresh water turns to blood? Will people be thinking peace and safety?
How about trumpet 5 when the beasties are stinging? Oh, you don't believe in those little beasties.
How about trumpet 6 that kills 1/3 of earth's population? Will people be thinking peace and safety?

OF COURSE THEY WILL NOT. The time of peace and safety comes before Rev. 6, at the time of the pretrib rapture. After that great event you don't believe in, there will be NO peace and safety until Jesus has set up His earthly kingdom!

Lamad

kaotic profit said:
1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

To say that the tribulation is a time of peace and safety contradicts what we already know about "tribulation!"
If people are saying peace and safety that means we are in a time of trouble. I don't think the verse implies there will be peace and safety. I think it implies people are wanting it. That interpretation aligns with all the other things we know written in prophecy about the tribulation.
It really makes no sense that tribulation would be a time of peace and safety.

I disagree. When people are living life to the fullest, marrying, giving in marriage, eating and drinking and having a great time, THAT is a time of peace and safety. THAT is the time of the pretrib rapture. From that time on, there will be NO peace and safety until Jesus sets up His kingdom.

Lamad

BLACK SHEEP · Aug 10, 2013

I said,

To say that the tribulation is a time of peace and safety contradicts what we already know about "tribulation!"
If people are saying peace and safety that means we are in a time of trouble. I don't think the verse implies there will be peace and safety. I think it implies people are wanting it. That interpretation aligns with all the other things we know written in prophecy about the tribulation.
It really makes no sense that tribulation would be a time of peace and safety.

iamlamad said,

I disagree. When people are living life to the fullest, marrying, giving in marriage, eating and drinking and having a great time, THAT is a time of peace and safety. THAT is the time of the pretrib rapture. From that time on, there will be NO peace and safety until Jesus sets up His kingdom.

The verses.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul is saying there's no need for him to write and tell them that the day of the Lord comes like a theif in the night because they already know. So Paul isn't directing his message so much to Christians as he is to unbelievers.

1 Thessalonians 3-4 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

That day WILL NOT OVERTAKE US.

Why would people who are...
"living life to the fullest, marrying, giving in marriage, eating and drinking and having a great time, THAT is a time of peace and safety"

...be saying, "peace and safety?" If a protester would be walking the streets of Washington DC holding a sign saying "peace and safety" at a time of peace and safety he would be thought of as a lunatic. This time period is the time of the Great Day of the Lord. At the beginning of tribulation there is no last trump, no day of the Lord, no rapture, no judgments, no marriage supper, etc. That's just a partial list of the things pre-tribbers have changed the timing and meaning of.

So why would sudden destruction come upon them (unbelievers) at the beginning of tribulation... opening day of which you call, "the Day of the Lord?"

OH! I know! When Jesus takes you up, planes trains and automobiles are going to crash and burn killing millions of people in the process right? God isn't that sloppy. He's actually very precise! And it makes no sense for Him to send His Son to remove people from tribulation so that they they don't have to go through it while killing millions of others and creating tribulation in the process. The rapture is an act of loving kindness and not an act that sets the world off into the prophesied tribulation that results into what looks like a terror attack.

Sudden destruction comes when the Lord returns to remove His own so that He can do battle against the beasts and nations. Nobody can deny that the end of tribulation is when the Lord returns. Pre-tribbers have added another return and another rapture as well as changed the timing of all the events that are mentioned in prophecy and attributed to the Day of the Lord.

"In the twinkling of an eye means in a split second not all at once!"

rockytopva · Aug 10, 2013

Noah was sparred the tribulation of the flood. The flood occurred in normal everyday times. Christ compares his return as in times like those of Noah and Lot. After we have risen with him then we will also return with him to reign a thousand years.

veteran · Aug 10, 2013

iamlamad said:
Veteran, sometimes you are absolutely comical! The pretrib rapture was first taught by PAUL! And you have totally missed it. There IS bible proof, but you have chosen to IGNORE it. You know as well as I do that the great crowd too large to number is in chapter 7. What you seem to ignore is that this crowd is the raptured church, seen in heaven BEFORE John starts the 70th week. And you still insist that the gathering in Matt. is the rapture. It is NOT. How can you even think that will be a time of peace and safety? The world has been destroyed, and most of the sinners in it! NO ONE will be thinking peace and safety then. And FOR SURE Paul's rapture gathers from the earth - but you ignore that too. So WHO is being lied to?

No, the Pre-trib Rapture theory was NOT taught by Apostle Paul, nor our Lord Jesus Christ, nor by ANY of His Apostles. It was NOT even taught as a doctrine in ANY Christian Church prior to the 1800's. You are flat telling a LIE. There is no history of that doctrine being taught in ANY Church prior to the 1800's. You're the one who has chosen to ignore the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church per God's Word, which is AFTER... the "great tribulation" that Jesus mentioned.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

The other version of that Scripture is in Mark 13:23-27, and it is about the gathering of the saints from the earth. So both those examples align with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, that Christ will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and then will gather His elect saints off the earth at that time too.

There is NO Scripture revealing the Church already having been gathered prior to the tribulation. Those thinking the "great multitude" standing near Christ's throne in white robes per Rev.7 is a Pre-Trib Rapture leave out those verses there which clearly show that for the future AFTER Jesus had already returned, i.e., a future Milennium timing view.

iamlamad said:
Veteran, you seem usually to be wrong, but here you are WAY WRONG. In speaking of the Day of the Lord, God said He was going to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth! And you wish to compare destroying the earth with peace and safety?

How about trumpet 1 that destroys 1/3 of all trees and all the grass. Will people be thinking peace and safety?
How about trumpet 2 where a third of the sea turns to blood? Will people be thinking peace and safety?
How about trumpet 3 where a third of the fresh water turns to blood? Will people be thinking peace and safety?
How about trumpet 5 when the beasties are stinging? Oh, you don't believe in those little beasties.
How about trumpet 6 that kills 1/3 of earth's population? Will people be thinking peace and safety?

OF COURSE THEY WILL NOT. The time of peace and safety comes before Rev. 6, at the time of the pretrib rapture. After that great event you don't believe in, there will be NO peace and safety until Jesus has set up His earthly kingdom!

For you to be credible on who is right and wrong you'd have to FIRST heed God's Word as written. Several here, including myself, have already shown how you often do not heed God's Word as It is written, but you follow men's doctrines instead.

The very reason YOU don't even know about the "Peace and safety" idea which Apostle Paul taught is because of what I just said. You often do not heed God's Holy Writ at all. So BEFORE you can even TRY to debate that point you'd first have to study God's Word about it.

So in essence, all you're doing to yourself is just sinking any credibility you might have had into the mud.

rockytopva said:
Noah was sparred the tribulation of the flood. The flood occurred in normal everyday times. Christ compares his return as in times like those of Noah and Lot. After we have risen with him then we will also return with him to reign a thousand years.

Because of the Pre-Trib Rapture spin doctors you listen to, you have totally missed Christ's usage of the flood of Noah's day as a metaphor for end time events involving the coming tribulation.

God SEALED Noah and his inside the ark. Does God SEAL His servants for the end? Yes, that's what Rev.7 & 9 is about.
Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters for 150 days (five months per Hebrew reckoning of 30 days = 1 month).
The serpent casts waters as a flood out of his mouth towards the symbolic 'woman' of Rev.12.

I just pointed to a key within those 3 statements about those events written in God's Word.

BLACK SHEEP · Aug 10, 2013

rockytopva said:
Noah was sparred the tribulation of the flood. The flood occurred in normal everyday times. Christ compares his return as in times like those of Noah and Lot. After we have risen with him then we will also return with him to reign a thousand years.

They couldn't have been too normal and everyday times since God found it necessary to destroy them. In the flood God destroyed the bad. In the rapture God removes the good.

iamlamad · Aug 10, 2013

veteran said:
No, the Pre-trib Rapture theory was NOT taught by Apostle Paul, nor our Lord Jesus Christ, nor by ANY of His Apostles. It was NOT even taught as a doctrine in ANY Christian Church prior to the 1800's. You are flat telling a LIE. There is no history of that doctrine being taught in ANY Church prior to the 1800's. You're the one who has chosen to ignore the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church per God's Word, which is AFTER... the "great tribulation" that Jesus mentioned.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

The other version of that Scripture is in Mark 13:23-27, and it is about the gathering of the saints from the earth. So both those examples align with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, that Christ will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes, and then will gather His elect saints off the earth at that time too.

There is NO Scripture revealing the Church already having been gathered prior to the tribulation. Those thinking the "great multitude" standing near Christ's throne in white robes per Rev.7 is a Pre-Trib Rapture leave out those verses there which clearly show that for the future AFTER Jesus had already returned, i.e., a future Milennium timing view.

For you to be credible on who is right and wrong you'd have to FIRST heed God's Word as written. Several here, including myself, have already shown how you often do not heed God's Word as It is written, but you follow men's doctrines instead.

The very reason YOU don't even know about the "Peace and safety" idea which Apostle Paul taught is because of what I just said. You often do not heed God's Holy Writ at all. So BEFORE you can even TRY to debate that point you'd first have to study God's Word about it.

So in essence, all you're doing to yourself is just sinking any credibility you might have had into the mud.

Because of the Pre-Trib Rapture spin doctors you listen to, you have totally missed Christ's usage of the flood of Noah's day as a metaphor for end time events involving the coming tribulation.

God SEALED Noah and his inside the ark. Does God SEAL His servants for the end? Yes, that's what Rev.7 & 9 is about.
Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters for 150 days (five months per Hebrew reckoning of 30 days = 1 month).
The serpent casts waters as a flood out of his mouth towards the symbolic 'woman' of Rev.12.

I just pointed to a key within those 3 statements about those events written in God's Word.

You can choose to be ignorant still...as you have been. Paul wrote of the pretrib rapture. It is your choice to not believe Him.
(1 Corinthians 14:38) If you choose not to obey Luke 21:36, you certainly have that right. But why be like the Pharisees? You don't want to know the truth, and you teach here false doctrine preventing others from learning the truth! You are in a very dangerous place! (Matthew 23:13)

Get this straight, Veteran, God is PRETRIB. He is coming PRETRIB. If you refuse to believe it, refuse to pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming, you surely will NOT escape! Just quit trying to take others with you! You would do well to study and show yourself approved, rather than show yourself preaching doctrines of devils. Take off your preconcoceived glasses: Paul's rapture gathers from EARTH! you know this, yet you continue with your false doctrine. God has MORE THAN ONE gathering. The gathering from heaven is NOT PAUL's RAPTURE! Wake up! You are old enough to read and understand! The bodies of the dead in Christ are UNDER the earth. Those alive and remaining are ON the earth. Both groups are caught up into the air, and TOGETHER (the gathering) go to meet Christ in the clouds.

AGain you IGNORE John seeing the great crowd in heaven, in Rev. 7. You are so blind in your false doctrine, you they REARRANGE half the book so it does not appear that this great crowd is seen in heaven before the week has started. Well, KNOW THIS: God did not give you permission to rearrange His book! That crowd is seen in heaven BEFORE the week. And it fits perfectly with Paul's rapture. Paul wrote that there would be a SUDDENLY......that will be the rapture. At this sudden event, two groups of people get two different results: those in darkness get sudden destruction. This is the world wide EARTHQUAKE as seen at the 6th seal. It is caused by the dead in Christ around the world rising. Those in the Light get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him." Veteran, this is the RAPTURE. And the timing is clear, it comes JUST BEFORE the earthquake, and the TRIGGER for the quake as seen at the 6th seal. Then, the SIGNS come, the darkened sun and the moon into blood. These are the SIGNS of the Day of the Lord, confirmed By Joel 2 and Isaiah 2. So Paul's rapture is the TRIGGER for these signs. Always know, SIGNS come before the event! The sun turns dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins. but NOT 7 YEARS before! The signs are in chapter 6, the DAy begins (and the Week) with the 7th seal, the very next event after the 6th seal.

You see, if you UNDERSTAND John, he is very chronological. Those under the altar at the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age, are told they must wait for the last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. What will make the last martyr of the church age? The END OF THE CHURCH AGE. What comes after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal! Again notice that John's chronology is PERFECT; they are told to wait, and the very next event is the rapture, which takes place just before the 6th seal events start. They are the SIGNS for the start of the Day. Then in chapter 8 the DAY of the Lord (and the 70th week) begins. Veteran, this is SIMPLE. But your preconceived glasses prevent you from seeing....like blind trying to lead the blind.

Paul CERTAINLY did not disagree with Himself in the next book to the Thessalonians. He tells us the Depature must come FIRST, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed; so your take on this verse is just the opposite of the truth and intent of the author. Why am I not surprised? It is just like your take on many other scriptures; opposite of the truth.

WRONG! Your gathering is not the same gathering. You can twist and turn, but when Paul mentions "gathering" HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN HEAVEN before Jesus starts down! That is incredible stretching, and very sloppy exegesis. Get this straight once and for all:

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

There is the "gathering!"

to·geth·er
[tuh-geth-er] Show IPA

adverb
1.
into or in one gathering, company, mass, place, or body: to callthe people together.

This is from an online dictionary. Can you see where Paul wrote, "out gathering together?" You want TWIST this simple meaning to fit your false doctrine. Paul's gathering is from EARTH: PERIOD AND END OF STORY.

Those thinking the "great multitude" standing near Christ's throne in white robes per Rev.7 is a Pre-Trib Rapture leave out those verses there which clearly show that for the future AFTER Jesus had already returned, i.e., a future Milennium timing view.

Here you go, trying to rearrange! STOP IT! You have no authority to rearrange His book! This is more twisting on your part, trying to force a square peg into a round whole! BAM! POW! If I hit it hard enough, maybe it will fit! Or if I tell this lie often enough, maybe someone will believe it! Sorry, Veteran, SLOPPY exegesis. This story is in chapter 7 because that is where it happened! John just saw the SIGNS for the start of the Day of the Lord. Remember what Paul wrote? "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." Veteran, this is just THREE VERSES past the classic rapture verse! Paul and John are in perfect harmony! But it does not fit your FALSE doctrine, no matter how hard you try and make it fit.
It also makes PERFECT sense and PERFECT timing that the 144,000 are sealed just BEFORE the start of the Day, which begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot fit FALSE DOCTRINE in the book and make it fit! IT WILL NEVER FIT, because it is false doctrine!

Lamad

kaotic profit said:
I said,

To say that the tribulation is a time of peace and safety contradicts what we already know about "tribulation!"
If people are saying peace and safety that means we are in a time of trouble. I don't think the verse implies there will be peace and safety. I think it implies people are wanting it. That interpretation aligns with all the other things we know written in prophecy about the tribulation.
It really makes no sense that tribulation would be a time of peace and safety.

iamlamad said,

The verses.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul is saying there's no need for him to write and tell them that the day of the Lord comes like a theif in the night because they already know. So Paul isn't directing his message so much to Christians as he is to unbelievers.

1 Thessalonians 3-4 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

That day WILL NOT OVERTAKE US.

Why would people who are...
"living life to the fullest, marrying, giving in marriage, eating and drinking and having a great time, THAT is a time of peace and safety"

...be saying, "peace and safety?" If a protester would be walking the streets of Washington DC holding a sign saying "peace and safety" at a time of peace and safety he would be thought of as a lunatic. This time period is the time of the Great Day of the Lord. At the beginning of tribulation there is no last trump, no day of the Lord, no rapture, no judgments, no marriage supper, etc. That's just a partial list of the things pre-tribbers have changed the timing and meaning of.

So why would sudden destruction come upon them (unbelievers) at the beginning of tribulation... opening day of which you call, "the Day of the Lord?"

OH! I know! When Jesus takes you up, planes trains and automobiles are going to crash and burn killing millions of people in the process right? God isn't that sloppy. He's actually very precise! And it makes no sense for Him to send His Son to remove people from tribulation so that they they don't have to go through it while killing millions of others and creating tribulation in the process. The rapture is an act of loving kindness and not an act that sets the world off into the prophesied tribulation that results into what looks like a terror attack.

Sudden destruction comes when the Lord returns to remove His own so that He can do battle against the beasts and nations. Nobody can deny that the end of tribulation is when the Lord returns. Pre-tribbers have added another return and another rapture as well as changed the timing of all the events that are mentioned in prophecy and attributed to the Day of the Lord.

"In the twinkling of an eye means in a split second not all at once!"

You can argue until the cows come home, but you will still be wrong. At the time of Noah, they will marrying and giving in marriage, living life just exactly as we do today, only then there was only ONE righteous family. When they got up one morning, NONE OF THEM had a clue it would be their last day alive on earth. That was Jesus point! Their destruction came SUDDENLY with the beginning of a torrential downpour, and the fountains of the deep coming up. It was the same with those in Lot's day: they were living life as we are today, and had NO IDEA that when they woke up that morning, they would be dead and not see another day. It came SUDDENLY. AGain, that is the idea Jesus was giving: the SUDDENNESS of His coming, and the TIMING of His coming, as a thief in the night - a time when NO ONE is suspecting.

Paul's argument is the same: The Day of the Lord comes SUDDENLY. What does that mean? It mean NO WARNING! When people are saying peace and safety, they MEAN it? Why do you wish to twist it around? We in the US THINK we are living in peace and safety. Well, we THOUGHT that before 9/11. Paul and Jesus are saying the same thing: people will be living NORMAL lives when a SUDDENLY comes: that suddely in Paul's case is the rapture of the church. Those in darkness get SUDDEN destruction. What does that mean? It means NO WARNING! (just as in Lot's day). What is that sudden destruction? It is the great EARTHQUAKE at the 6th seal. That great earthquake will be world wide, because EVERY mountain moves out of its place. It will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. (See Matt. 27: "the earth did quake....and the graves were opened). Those living in the light will not be affected by this great earthquake, for one pico second after the Dead are raise, we that are alive are caught up.
It is written, they get "salvation" (rapture) and get to "live together with Him."

Sorry, what comes AFTER the removal of the Saints, is the SIGNS for the Day. Read at the 6th seal. Did you not understnad that the great crowd seen in chapter 7 is the CHURCH, already raptured and in heaven? Well, it IS the church! The battle of ARmageddon comes 7 years later. Why do you wish to rearrage Revelation to fit your theory? Why not create a theory that fits Revelation? See how Paul and John are in perfect harmony? The rapture comes FIRST (The departure comes FIRST - the restrainer taken out of the way) and THEN the day of the Lord comes. John saw the church in heaven in chapter 7, and the DAy begins (along with the 70th week) in Chapter 8 of Revelation. Again, Paul and Johin are in PERFECT harmony.

Are you actually FOLLOWING Luke 21:36? it would be a VERY GOOD idea, if you are not!

AS hard as you try, you cannot make a false doctrine fit the scriptures! You can twist and rearrange but it will never work! God is very PRETRIB, so any other doctrine will just not fit.

Lamad

TWC · Aug 10, 2013

iamlamad said:
AS hard as you try, you cannot make a false doctrine fit the scriptures! You can twist and rearrange but it will never work! God is very PRETRIB, so any other doctrine will just not fit.

Lamad

[SIZE=1em]If you want to sway someone over to your side, try coming up with biblical evidence that supports your doctrine that doesn't first require that person to believe your conclusion in order to accept said evidence. As long as your arguments are based in eisegesis, you're not going to get anywhere. [/SIZE]

Arnie Manitoba · Aug 11, 2013

iamlamad said:
You can argue until the cows come home, but you will still be wrong. At the time of Noah, they will marrying and giving in marriage, living life just exactly as we do today, only then there was only ONE righteous family. When they got up one morning, NONE OF THEM had a clue it would be their last day alive on earth. That was Jesus point! Their destruction came SUDDENLY with the beginning of a torrential downpour, and the fountains of the deep coming up. It was the same with those in Lot's day: they were living life as we are today, and had NO IDEA that when they woke up that morning, they would be dead and not see another day. It came SUDDENLY. AGain, that is the idea Jesus was giving: the SUDDENNESS of His coming, and the TIMING of His coming, as a thief in the night - a time when NO ONE is suspecting.

We should all make note of the fact that it was God who shut the door on Noah's Ark ..... then the rain and destruction began.

I feel God will do something similar just before the tribulation wrath begins .... possibly a rapture of those he plans to save.

It is also used in Matthew 25:10 The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

Obviously there has to be some significant event that (suddenly) starts the tribulation ..... if not the rapture ...... then what ??

Pre Tribulation rapture of the Church

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