Is all of the law of Moses finished?

Robertson · Jun 19, 2013

I know us Christians have a faith in Christ and believe that He came to fulfill the law and we no longer are required to keep it, but where do the 10 commandments come in. Those seem to be pretty strong in the churches even today, but were they not part of the law of Moses? Why do we say that we don't have to keep the law of Moses, but we must keep the 10 commandments that Moses gave? This is a question I have in my mind right now and I have not thought of a suitable answer as of yet. I was hoping a few of you had some ideas.

Before you offer some ideas, let me just clear something up. I am not suggesting that we need to go back to the Law of Moses or that we need to keep all or none of it. It just seems to me that a lot of attention is put on the 10 commandments and yet no other consideration is given to the other parts of the law of Moses and I've never heard a reason as to why. Thanks!

Dan57 · Jun 19, 2013

Most all the statutes concerning the Levitical priesthood, Temple rituals, and blood ordinances were fulfilled in Christ and are no longer applicable or necessary. The 10 commandments are still in effect and apply under the New Covenant. When Jesus said "Keep my commandments", I believe this request encompassed the 10 commandments, and we certainly know from his sermons that he endorsed the commandments. The only exclusion might be keeping the Sabbath, most Christians believe that Christ became our rest, so our daily recognition of our Savior is acknowledging the Sabbath. JMO

daq · Jun 19, 2013

Robertson said:
I know us Christians have a faith in Christ and believe that He came to fulfill the law and we no longer are required to keep it, but where do the 10 commandments come in. Those seem to be pretty strong in the churches even today, but were they not part of the law of Moses? Why do we say that we don't have to keep the law of Moses, but we must keep the 10 commandments that Moses gave? This is a question I have in my mind right now and I have not thought of a suitable answer as of yet. I was hoping a few of you had some ideas.

Before you offer some ideas, let me just clear something up. I am not suggesting that we need to go back to the Law of Moses or that we need to keep all or none of it. It just seems to me that a lot of attention is put on the 10 commandments and yet no other consideration is given to the other parts of the law of Moses and I've never heard a reason as to why. Thanks!

Hi Robertson, welcome to the forum!

The "royal law" concerns the two greatest commandments to love God first and then your neighbor as yourself, (Mark 12:29-31). What then does the Scripture truly speak of when we read of the "law of liberty" in the Epistle of James?

James 2:8-13 KJV
8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

The Scripture gives us the all important clue when James writes, paraphrased, "The one who shows no mercy will likewise have judgment without mercy." Thus the reference is to the clear statement and even "commandment" of Yeshua which likewise states:

Matthew 6:9-15 KJV
9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This statement is emphatic and plain as day; without need of any further explanation or expounding: "If you forgive men their trespasses then your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses then neither will your heavenly Father forgive your own trespasses." Therefore the "law of liberty" of which James writes concerns the clear emphatic statement which is a promise that we will not be judged under the Law of Moses if we are willing to love our neighbor so far as to forgive others their trespasses. This is the doctrine of the Master himself as shown also in the following parable:

Matthew 18:23-35 KJV
23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

And again, although this is a parable, the moral of the parable at the conclusion is a clear emphatic statement. Therefore what man has any excuse to render Torah, (the Law of Moses) of "none effect" or what purpose is there in attempting to "abolish" Torah? For what reason does it even need to be abrogated? We are clearly informed that we will not be judged according to the Law of Moses if we forgive others their trespasses. In fact when we forgive others we do perform the supernal sacrifice of a certain amount of pride and self justification knowing that someone else had owed us a debt. Therefore we establish the Law because pride is likened to a sa`iyr-goat. Likewise there is no excuse for not diving into Torah so as to begin to allow the Master to teach us from Torah, (which is Spirit and now understood according to the teachings and doctrines of Yeshua given in the Gospel accounts). Paul likewise explains that the goal is not to "abolish the Law" but rather to have the "vail" removed from our own hearts, eyes, and minds so that we may begin to understand Torah and know our God. It is the vail, (eyes and mind of the flesh) that is done away in Messiah and not Torah itself:

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 KJV
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The other James passage concerning the "law of liberty" now rings truer than before:

James 1:22-25 KJV
22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [reverse symbolism of 2 Corinthians 3:18]
24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

IBeMe · Jun 19, 2013

MAT:5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus didn't destroy the law, He fulfilled our condemnation of death, required under the law.

COL:2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2CO:3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

HEB:9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Those, born again of the Spirit, are not subject to the "letter" of the law (carnal ordinances), but are subject to the "spirit" of the law, the moral law.

MAT:19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
MAT:19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

GAL:5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
GAL:5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
GAL:5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

HammerStone · Jun 19, 2013

Deuteronomy 6:1
These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess...

They are, as seen above, varying degrees of laws, decrees and commands. Other Bible translations uses other terms, but the idea is the same; there is a distinction. Fast forward to the New Testament, and Jesus says:

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus did not nullify the law, he fulfilled it. As a once-and-for-all sacrifice, he fulfilled all requirements concerning sacrificing. He fulfilled all of the other requirements as well. He did not fulfilled our provisions to honor God ourselves, obey our parents, etc. There we are given grace. However, under no circumstance did God destroy law; he took care of it for us because we could not.

williemac · Jun 19, 2013

IBeMe said:
MAT:5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus didn't destroy the law, He fulfilled our condemnation of death, required under the law.

COL:2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

2CO:3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

HEB:9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Those, born again of the Spirit, are not subject to the "letter" of the law (carnal ordinances), but are subject to the "spirit" of the law, the moral law.

MAT:19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
MAT:19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

GAL:5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
GAL:5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
GAL:5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If there had been a law given that could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law. (Gal.3:21)

There is no law that can bring life. That which you are calling the 'spirit of the law', is still the letter of the law. The penalty you describe is not the penalty of the spirit of the law, but of the letter of the law. The wages of sin is death. The letter is that which exposes sin.
But through faith in Him, we died with Christ. We are already dead. The old man was crucified with Him. The new man is everlasting and is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24).
We are exempt from judgment to condemnation ( John 5:24) It already happened in our old man. Once is enough.

ScottAU · Jun 19, 2013

Robertson said:
I know us Christians have a faith in Christ and believe that He came to fulfill the law and we no longer are required to keep it, but where do the 10 commandments come in. Those seem to be pretty strong in the churches even today, but were they not part of the law of Moses? Why do we say that we don't have to keep the law of Moses, but we must keep the 10 commandments that Moses gave? This is a question I have in my mind right now and I have not thought of a suitable answer as of yet. I was hoping a few of you had some ideas.

Before you offer some ideas, let me just clear something up. I am not suggesting that we need to go back to the Law of Moses or that we need to keep all or none of it. It just seems to me that a lot of attention is put on the 10 commandments and yet no other consideration is given to the other parts of the law of Moses and I've never heard a reason as to why. Thanks!

Paul wrote this...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul also wrote this...

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul taught that faith WORKS BY LOVE...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Paul taught that LOVE WORKS NO ILL...

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul taught that LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW...

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If one is to love do they need a commandment telling them not to lie, cheat, steal or kill?

No. Love by its nature fulfills those things apart from being "under law." The law of love is a law unto itself.

The Ten Commandments are a SHADOW of love.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Hence...

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which is why Paul would write...

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The Ten Commandments and all the rest of the Mosaic Law are done away in Christ for the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Thus whilst the LETTER of the law is done away with the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law is not.

The difference is this...

LAW = External Governance by Rules and Regulations

SPIRIT/GRACE = Internal Governance via abiding in Christ whereby the heart is made pure.

A pure heart does not produce evil fruit and thus does not need rules written on stone as a means to regiment conduct.

Mungo · Jun 19, 2013

The whole Law of the Sinai Covenant ended at the cross. That includes the 10 Commandments.
However that does that mean we can kill, commit adultery, steal, lie etc. because most of the Ten Commandments of the old law are carried over into the new, as are other moral imperatives present in the Old Testament

God's moral laws transcend time and covenants. The Ten Commandments are an implementation (or codification) of God’s moral laws for the Jews (or most of them are). God’s moral laws are also found elsewhere in the Old Law, outside of the Ten Commandments (e.g. fornication and fraud).

When the Law of Moses was abolished so was that implementation of God’s moral laws. But not the moral laws themselves.

Murder (for example) is wrong, but not because it is in the Ten Commandments. Rather it is in the Ten Commandments because it is wrong.

We need to distinguish between God's eternal moral laws and a particular expression or application of them at a point in time for a particular people.

Murder was condemned from the beginning. We can see this in Gen 4 when Cain slew Abel & Lamech slew a man, and in Gen 9 when God gave covenant laws to Noah. If murder was wrong before the Ten Commandments were given they are wrong afterwards. And we can find prohibitions against murder in the NT.

I live in England and there are laws against murder here. But if I were to go to France and murder someone there I would not be prosecuted under English law but under French law. English law does not apply to me in France but French law applies to me.

I am now living under the new covenant and the new covenant laws apply to me. I am not living under the old covenant and the old covenant laws do not apply to me.

daq · Jun 19, 2013

williemac said:
But through faith in Him, we died with Christ. We are already dead. The old man was crucified with Him. The new man is everlasting and is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24).
We are exempt from judgment to condemnation ( John 5:24) It already happened in our old man. Once is enough.

You speak as if the "old man" is already gone while the "new man" is already an accomplished fact in every believer; yet in so doing you misrepresent the passage from Ephesians which you have quoted to support your statement. We are admonished to PUT OFF the old man and at the same time PUT ON the new man:

Ephesians 4:22-24 KJV
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Likewise every person on earth is dead to begin with because of the Cross. The only thing that makes a believer different is the quickening which comes through faith in Messiah. Claiming the name of Yeshua does not prove anything because the tree is known by his fruit. Thus one may confess "belief" and truly that one has been brought through the death of Messiah because all men have been brought through the same. Yet if there is no sign of any fruits then the same remains dead because the true seed did not take root in the soil of his or her heart. John states that Yeshua is the LIGHT of every man which comes into the world. What should we suppose happened when the LIGHT of every man who comes into the world was KILLED at Golgotha? Therefore EVERY man died and outside of Messiah continues to abide in the same darkness which was upon the earth for the last three hours of the Crucifixion recorded in the Gospel accounts.

John 1:4-9 KJV
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Paul likewise teaches the same:

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 KJV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15. And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14 ASV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

2 Corinthians 5:14 RSV
14. For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.

Therefore when you say "through faith in Him, we died with Christ" you are not fully understanding the scope because when the Father did what he did at the Cross he DRAGGED all men before his Son Yeshua. Likewise Yeshua states this also:

John 12:28-33 KJV
28. Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw [GSN#1670 helkuo] all men unto me.
33. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Original Strong's Ref. #1670
Romanized helkuo
Pronounced hel-koo'-o
or helko {hel'-ko}; probably akin to GSN0138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
KJV--draw. Compare GSN1667.

John 6:44-50 KJV
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [GSN#1670 helkuo] him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48. I am that bread of life.
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Proclaiming that you were dead and raised up in Christ does not make you any different than any other person on earth because all essentially died at the Cross of Yeshua the LIGHT of every man which comes into the world. All men were dragged to the Cross whether they like it or not and whether they believe it or not, (therefore Yeshua is the Judge of both the quick and the dead). What makes a difference is the one who truly repents, and is quickened, and faithfully continues in belief and discipleship by eating the true manna from heaven which Yeshua has given; that one will stop sinning and begin to bear good fruit. The beginning of this is putting off the old man and putting on the new, (and you will need Torah the Rod of Iron to understand how to deal with the "heathen" in your midst).

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 19, 2013

With a change of the priesthood and covenant came a change in law. We are dead to the law of Moses, yet alive to the law of spirit of life in Christ. How can one who is dead keep law he is dead to?

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses), what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law (of Moses) could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God (did) by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. And concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh: Romans 8:2-3

IBeMe · Jun 19, 2013

williemac; "... We are exempt from judgment to condemnation ..."

Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness???

Jude 2:
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

ScottAU: Paul also wrote this...

Paul also wrote this...
Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 19, 2013

IBeMe said:
williemac; "... We are exempt from judgment to condemnation ..."

Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness???

How does 'exempt from judgment to condemnation' become lasciviousness in your mind? It sounds like you are a lawless person who needs the constraints of external laws to avoid doing what is wrong.

But we know that the law [is] good, if a man uses it lawfully knowing that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 1 Timothy 1:8-10

IBeMe · Jun 19, 2013

ChristRoseFromTheDead
How does 'exempt from judgment to condemnation' become lasciviousness in your mind? It sounds like you are a lawless person who needs the constraints of external laws to avoid doing what is wrong.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, ..."

Anyone saying they are "exempt from judgment" is saying they are "exempt from judgment" for lasciviousness.

Thus; "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness."

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 19, 2013

IBeMe said:
Anyone saying they are "exempt from judgment" is saying they are "exempt from judgment" for lasciviousness.
Thus; "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness."
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What if it had been worded like this: We have been exempted from judgment into condemnation?

btw, the likelihood is great that the last 10 words of Romans 8:1 (as you displayed it) were added by copyists.

daq · Jun 19, 2013

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
With a change of the priesthood and covenant came a change in law. We are dead to the law of Moses, yet alive to the law of spirit of life in Christ. How can one who is dead keep law he is dead to?

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses), what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law (of Moses) could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God (did) by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. And concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh: Romans 8:2-3

The only portion of the Covenants to be "disannulled" was that which was already prophesied in Isaiah 28 to be disannulled which was "the covenant with death" spoken of therein. The same "covenant with death" is already proven to be the covenant of the High Priesthood which was NOT given by an oath. The Covenant to Aaron and his sons is an everlasting covenant of salt; likewise Phinehas the son of Eleazar-Lazaros was promised an everlasting Covenant of Peace which is fulfilled in Messiah. You were already in that thread so I post a link for others because it need not be rehashed here in this thread all over again with one who simply refuses to believe the Scripture:

Priesthood ~ Reply#21-54

Likewise the Law was not "changed" but rather "transformed" (fully supernal and Spirit) according to the new interpretation-understandings given by and through the Master whom the Father spoke through in the Gospel accounts. God does not "change" and neither does his Word. Yeshua paid for his Testimony with his blood, (which is the new and better Way interpretation of Torah) and thus by and in his own blood also CONFIRMED the Covenants and promises. True liberty does not come by the abolition of Truth but rather by the proper understanding of it. The one who "abolishes" the Truth in his mind does nothing more than sear his own conscience and remains dead.

Hebrews 7 ~ Reply#4

True love rejoices in TRUTH. True love casts out FEAR.

Therefore anyone truly IN Messiah will not be FEARFUL of Torah, (or the Epistle to the Hebrews as the above link reveals).

Luke 1:67-79 KJV
67. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77. To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78. Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79. To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

It is FEAR and the fear of condemnation that is cast out: not holy Torah or its Covenants and Promises.
Therefore anyone not willing to forgive his brother remains UNDER the law and that one should FEAR.

IBeMe · Jun 19, 2013

ChristRoseFromTheDead:
btw, the likelihood is great that the last 10 words of Romans 8:1 (as you displayed it) were added by copyists.

Don't like those words?

2PE:3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2PE:3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 19, 2013

IBeMe said:
ChristRoseFromTheDead:
btw, the likelihood is great that the last 10 words of Romans 8:1 (as you displayed it) were added by copyists.
Don't like those words?
2PE:3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2PE:3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Yes I like those words in their proper place: verse 4. What I don't like is verses added by copyists. Do some research; be less sanctimonious.

NET Bible footnote
The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts, as well as a few others (א* B D* F G 6 1506 1739 1881 pc co), have no additional words for v. 1. Later scribes (A D1Ψ 81 365 629 pc vg) added the words μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν (mh kata sarka peripatousin, “who do not walk according to the flesh”), while even later ones (א2 D2 33vidÏ) added ἀλλὰ κατὰ πνεῦμα (alla kata pneuma, “but [who do walk] according to the Spirit”). Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were evidently motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v. 4) to insulate Paul’s gospel from charges that it was characterized too much by grace. The KJV follows the longest reading found in Ï.

IBeMe · Jun 19, 2013

ROM:8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

We're "debtors"; have the responsibility, and are therefore accountable, to not follow the flesh.

ROM:8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Only those who "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body" "are the sons of God"

Otherwise, you're following the flesh, and "ye shall die."

ROM:8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So, we have a free, but very restrictive, contract that requires us to keep the flesh in total subjection at all times, and fully follow the Spirit.

If you're fully following the Spirit, it will be impossible to sin; because the Spirit will never lead you to sin.

Looking for an easy way out, find footnotes offering exemptions ... however, God doesn't use man's footnotes.

JB_Reformed Baptist · Jun 19, 2013

HammerStone said:
Deuteronomy 6:1
These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess...

They are, as seen above, varying degrees of laws, decrees and commands. Other Bible translations uses other terms, but the idea is the same; there is a distinction. Fast forward to the New Testament, and Jesus says:

Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus did not nullify the law, he fulfilled it. As a once-and-for-all sacrifice, he fulfilled all requirements concerning sacrificing. He fulfilled all of the other requirements as well. He did not fulfilled our provisions to honor God ourselves, obey our parents, etc. There we are given grace. However, under no circumstance did God destroy law; he took care of it for us because we could not.

AMEN TO THAT!!!

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 19, 2013

IBeMe said:
So, we have a free, but very restrictive, contract that requires us to keep the flesh in total subjection at all times, and fully follow the Spirit.
If you're fully following the Spirit, it will be impossible to sin; because the Spirit will never lead you to sin.
Looking for an easy way out, find footnotes offering exemptions ... however, God doesn't use man's footnotes.

That's just foolishness, based on immaturity is my guess. You are exhibiting symptoms of what I call the idolatry of imagined obedience. The narrow door is remaining faithful to the doctrine of Christ, not walking a tightrope of imagined obedience based on experience. Jesus said that his yoke was easy and his burden was light. He gives us freedom and rest, not a restrictive contract.

Is all of the law of Moses finished?

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