Is all of the law of Moses finished?

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Mungo

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IBeMe said:
Paul also wrote this...
Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10
28. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. (Old Testament)
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? (New Testament)
 

IBeMe

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ChristRoseFromTheDead: "Jesus said that his yoke was easy and his burden was light."

MAT:13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
ROM:8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Totally sell out your life and fully follow the Spirit.

Then, this scripture comes alive.

MAT:11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Spirit will never lead you to;

GAL:5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
GAL:5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
GAL:5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

REV:2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Some don't want to hear the whole Word of God.
 

daq

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's just foolishness, based on immaturity is my guess. You are exhibiting symptoms of what I call the idolatry of imagined obedience. The narrow door is remaining faithful to the doctrine of Christ, not walking a tightrope of imagined obedience based on experience. Jesus said that his yoke was easy and his burden was light. He gives us freedom and rest, not a restrictive contract.
In your version of "atonement theology" do you imagine Yeshua as your "scapegoat" having been sent away into the wilderness with all of your sins upon his head? If so then please know that what you have essentiallly done theologically speaking is to have "yoked" yourself to the goat which is to/for `Aza'zel. Perhaps this is why you continue casting accusations using words like "the idolatry of imagined obedience" and "knowing the depths of Satan" (as you accused myself elsewhere) just because someone else disagrees with your theology. The Epistle to the Hebrews clearly states, (in the midst of a discourse on atonement for this very reason so that we not confuse the Master with the scapegoat) that Messiah shall he appear the second time WITHOUT SIN unto salvation. :)
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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daq said:
In your version of "atonement theology" do you imagine Yeshua as your "scapegoat" having been sent away into the wilderness with all of your sins upon his head? If so then please know that what you have essentiallly done theologically speaking is to have "yoked" yourself to the goat which is to/for `Aza'zel. Perhaps this is why you continue casting accusations using words like "the idolatry of imagined obedience" and "knowing the depths of Satan" (as you accused myself elsewhere) just because someone else disagrees with your theology. The Epistle to the Hebrews clearly states, (in the midst of a discourse on atonement for this very reason so that we not confuse the Master with the scapegoat) that Messiah shall he appear the second time WITHOUT SIN unto salvation. :)
No Yeshua is not the scapegoat, and sin has not yet been "sent away into the wilderness". Christ will do the sending when the son of man emerges from the temple.
 

daq

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
No Yeshua is not the scapegoat, and sin has not yet been "sent away into the wilderness". Christ will do the sending when the son of man emerges from the temple.
Well at least it is good to see that you do not adhere to that doctrine also. However, it is the High Priest Yeshua who aphiemi-sends away sins and he does so according to the commandments and ordinances given in Torah as they remain shadows of what was to come when the Master himself finally arrived. This is shown throughout the Gospel accounts in manifold occasions but much of it has been buried, mistranslated, or perhaps even in some cases deliberately hidden. Likewise Yeshua already fulfilled the typology of one of the three goat sacrifices of Yom Kippur as well as Barabbas having fulfilled the typology of the scapegoat which was sent away with the sins of the people upon his murderous head.

Matthew 27:16-17 KJV (From the AV Textus Receptus)
16. And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17. Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

Matthew 27:16-17 TUA (Greek Transliterated Unaccented Bible - GNT Morph Text)
16. Eichon detote desmion episemon legomenon Iesoun {*} Barabban.
17. Sunegmenon oun auton eipen autois ho Pilatos, "Tina thelete apoluso humin, Iesoun {*} ton Barabban e Iesoun ton legomenon Christon?

Matthew 27:16-17
16. And they had a notable prisoner, called YESHUA BARABBAS.
17. Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? YESHUA THAT IS BARABBAS or YESHUA THAT IS HAVING BEEN CALLED THE CHRISTOS?


Yeshua certainly had the choice, even as possibly another temptation, to go ahead and switch places with Bar-Abbas and go free. He could have even asked of the Father for twelve legions of Angels. Yeshua was tempted in all points, as we are, yet again WITHOUT SIN, (Hebrews 4:15). This is the very same reason the writer of Hebrews informs us that Yeshua will also appear the second time WITHOUT SIN, (Hebrews 9:28). God forbid that it ever be said Yeshua is our "scapegoat" but rather we should therefore "sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you!"


Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

These matters have everything to do with the everyday common man or woman that has entered into the Yeshua faith. Where does Yeshua ever say that the statement above only applies to "a few" unfortunate "demon possessed" people? In the beginning, (with every disciple) the unclean spirit which is cast out of the man is only cast out of those who come to Messiah in the first place. Therefore the statement does not apply to unbelievers because they have never had the unclean spirit cast out of them to begin with. Yet it is clear that the "unclean spirit" returns to his former "house" which "house" is the bodily TEMPLE of the believer (either way "you are not your own"). And this "return" is the hour of tribulation; the hour of trial, the hour of testing which shall come upon each and every one in his own appointed time known only to our Heavenly Father. In fact, to be "FORGIVEN" means to have ones sins "SENT AWAY" by the High Priest Yeshua. The word translated "forgiven" means the same. This is exactly what is done in the Great Day of Atonement with the scapegoat to/for `Aza'zel by the High Priest.

Matthew 9:1-7
1. And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.
2. And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Yeshua seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Child, [teknon] be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven [GSN#863 aphiemi] thee.
3. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4. And Yeshua knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5. For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven [GSN#863 aphiemi] of thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive [GSN#863 aphiemi] sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7. And he arose, and departed to his house.


APHIEMI = "SENT AWAY" = FORGIVEN

Original Strong's Ref. #863
Romanized aphiemi
Pronounced af-ee'-ay-mee
from GSN0575 and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):
KJV--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

Aphiemi - "to send forth" ~ in various applications

This same word, (and a derivative) is employed throughout the entire Greek New Testament concerning "forgiveness" of sins. The High Priest Yeshua sends away your scapegoat-twin "old man" with all the sins upon his head; which is the true meaning of the aphiemi-sending away of sins: "Child, be of good cheer; the sins of you are sent away" (translated "forgiven"). This is why the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes began to accuse Yeshua of blaspheme; for only YHWH can send away sins and only the one High Priest duly vested with this power has the authority to perform the ceremony. Yeshua claimed that right to himself and did the works with mighty power; day in, day out, and not just at Yom Kippur. It was once again that Yeshua was, (in their eyes) usurping the authority and power of the High Priesthood.

Those adhering to a theology based on the idea that Yeshua is their "scapegoat" are sorely mistaken. The scapegoat typology fulfillment was "Yeshua Bar-Abbas" (Aramaic "son of the father") the murderer, which one was released by Pilate who was the "fit man" of the moment. Pilate the "fit man" released Barabbas at the request of the multitude with the sins of murder, rebellion, and Sicarii insurrection upon his head. No sin was necessary to be transposed in the case of Barabbas being sent away because Yeshua Messiah HAD NO SIN to be imputed upon Barabbas. However, that does not mean the typology is not present to the events, (and likewise fulfilled). The scapegoat is UNCLEAN from the time when the High Priest lays the sins of the people upon its head. Therefore it is sent away into the desert, deserted place, or wilderness, to "walk through dry places" like the desert-nomad creatures of Isaiah 34,(and hidden places in Daniel).
The scapegoat `Aza'zel has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon; for his desire is unto you, his former abode, to regain entry into his former house.

And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Yeshua seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; "Child, be of good cheer; the sins of thee be aphiemi-sent away!" And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemes. And Yeshua knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, "The sins of thee be aphiemi-sent away"? or to say, "Arise, and walk"? But so that you may know that the Son of man has power upon the earth to aphiemi-send away sins; "Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house!"


It is certainly good to know that Torah is not abolished in my own mind; for none of this could I have been shown. :)
 

williemac

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IBeMe said:
williemac; "... We are exempt from judgment to condemnation ..."


Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness???


Jude 2:
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


ScottAU: Paul also wrote this...

Paul also wrote this...
Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Re: Heb.10... People have been quoting this one out of context on many occasions. I noticed you stopped at vs. 28. But Vs. 39 says.." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul."
The context reveals that the old sacrifices are no longer available. So anyone who sins outside of the blood of Jesus has no sacrifice. Willful sin is sinning in unbelief. The term is found only once in scripture. We do not have the mandate to put our own definition to it, but should take care to examine the text to see what the author had in mind. By the way, it is merely an opinion that Paul wrote Hebrews.

I should add that the blood of bulls and goats was available because they were continually sinning. These sacrifices reminded them of sin and also kept them in good standing. (Heb.10:3,4) Are you going to suggest that the blood of Jesus is inferior in that it cannot even accomplish the same? In fact, we are not to be reminded of that which has been remitted (removed, taken away..vs.17,18). God promised to remove our sins and lawless deeds from His memory (vs.17). So we are to have no more consciousness of sin. Does that mean we have no sin? Apparently not. But our guilt has been removed by way of the old man having been crucified with Christ. Therefore if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father (1John 2:1).
But please reply to John 5:24. I did not give an opinion about being exempt from judgment. I quoted the words of Jesus. Read it and rebut it if you think we are misreading it. It is all about faith. Even your reference to Jude states that those were destroyed because they believed not.

But all I see in this and other threads is consciousness of sin, reminder of sin, and guilt and judgment. So what is being believed here? And what is not believed?
 

daq

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williemac said:
But all I see in this and other threads is consciousness of sin, reminder of sin, and guilt and judgment. So what is being believed here? And what is not believed?
All I see from you thus far is that when your doctrine is put to the test you "leave for the weekend" or find another thread. :)

williemac said:
God promised to remove our sins and lawless deeds from His memory (vs.17). So we are to have no more consciousness of sin. Does that mean we have no sin? Apparently not. But our guilt has been removed by way of the old man having been crucified with Christ.
Again this is nothing but "searing the conscience" rather than keeping the garment spotless, (the conscience is a "garment").
Such things are not taught in the Scripture:

Acts 24:14-16 KJV
14. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16. And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.


Romans 2:11-16 KJV
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


The defiled conscience of a man is a WITNESS against himself and his thoughts are his ACCUSER before the Most High.
 

IBeMe

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williemac: I noticed you stopped at vs. 28. But Vs. 39

my bad ... working on phone

williemac: Willful sin is sinning in unbelief.

You're making that up.

williemac: The term is found only once in scripture. We do not have the mandate to put our own definition to it, ...

God, Himself, defined it and you don't have the authority to change it.

LEV:4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD...

All sins except "ignorance" are sins with knowledge, therefore; "wilful".

williemac: We do not have the mandate to put our own definition to it, but should take care to examine the text to see what the author had in mind.

And then you proceed to do just that without understanding the difference between "wilful" sins, and sins of "ignorance."

williemac: But please reply to John 5:24.

JOH:5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But you can't ignore this...

JOH:15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If you don't keep Jesus commandments then you don't abide in His love.

JOH:15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

You can fool others by telling them they can ignore some scriptures that aren't comfortable to the flesh; but you won't be able to fool Jesus.


MAT:4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 

Mungo

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IBeMe said:
JOH:15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If you don't keep Jesus commandments then you don't abide in His love.
We need to keep Jesus commandments that are for us.

Sabbath keeping is not a commandment of Jesus for us. It was a commandment for the Jews.
 

IBeMe

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We're still subject to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But;

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

We're to keep the "Spirit" of "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus, in many places, strengthened the "Spirit" of the law; "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

We, being buried in baptism, aren't subject to "carnal ordinances"; which Jesus fulfilled by dying in our place.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 

Mungo

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IBeMe said:
We're still subject to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But;

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

We're to keep the "Spirit" of "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus, in many places, strengthened the "Spirit" of the law; "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

We, being buried in baptism, aren't subject to "carnal ordinances"; which Jesus fulfilled by dying in our place.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You say We're still subject to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

And then you contradict yourself by saying We, being buried in baptism, aren't subject to "carnal ordinances"; whatever "carnal ordinances" are.

You excuse that by saying that's because Jesus fulfilled by dying in our place.

So which is it - every word, or just some of them?

If Jesus fulfilled the Law of the Old Covenant and it was thereby ended how come you think we are still subject to it?

You grossly misapply scripture.
 

IBeMe

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MAT:4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Some of the scriptures apply to men and not women, or women and not men.

ROM:7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

ROM:7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

ROM:7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Men aren't subject to what only pertains to women.

Those, born again of the Spirit, aren't subject that which doesn't pertain to them.

COL:2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Those, born again of the Spirit, are subject to the Spirit of the law; "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter."

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

MAT:5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

MAT:5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We are subject to the Spirit of the law, which Jesus strengthened.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill ... whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment"

"Thou shalt not commit adultery ... whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery"

We're still subject to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", but only that which pertains to us.

We're "delivered from the law"
HEB:9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
"that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter"

"the Father seeketh such to worship him"

We're subject to the morality set forth in the law, but not the "carnal ordinances."
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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IBeMe said:
We're still subject to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", but only that which pertains to us.
...
We're subject to the morality set forth in the law, but not the "carnal ordinances."
Oh yes, of course... The selective obedience of convenience... or shall I say, of unbelief.

What do you mean by, 'We're subject to the morality set forth in the law, but not the "carnal ordinances." By saying morality, I assume you mean righteousness. How are we subject to something we have been given, i.e., righteousness? When I'm given something, I possess it.
'
 

williemac

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daq said:
All I see from you thus far is that when your doctrine is put to the test you "leave for the weekend" or find another thread. :)
I have a life. But I have made many replies on this site for more than a few years. My time is not as available these days, I admit. But I can certainly defend my position with scripture.
 

Mungo

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IBeMe said:
MAT:4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Some of the scriptures apply to men and not women, or women and not men.

ROM:7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

ROM:7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

ROM:7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Men aren't subject to what only pertains to women.

Those, born again of the Spirit, aren't subject that which doesn't pertain to them.

COL:2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Those, born again of the Spirit, are subject to the Spirit of the law; "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter."

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

MAT:5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

MAT:5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We are subject to the Spirit of the law, which Jesus strengthened.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill ... whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment"

"Thou shalt not commit adultery ... whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery"

We're still subject to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", but only that which pertains to us.

We're "delivered from the law"
HEB:9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
"that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter"

"the Father seeketh such to worship him"

We're subject to the morality set forth in the law, but not the "carnal ordinances."

I agree we are subject to God's moral laws.

Some of the Old Covenant Law (including the Ten Commandments) was an implementation of God's moral laws for the Jews and some was not part of God's moral, laws.
 

williemac

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daq said:
You speak as if the "old man" is already gone while the "new man" is already an accomplished fact in every believer; yet in so doing you misrepresent the passage from Ephesians which you have quoted to support your statement. We are admonished to PUT OFF the old man and at the same time PUT ON the new man:

Ephesians 4:22-24 KJV
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Exactly. I am glad you quoted the passage. In it, Paul states that the old man is certainly part of us and is to be put off. As well, the new man is certainly part of us, as he states that the new man WAS created (is created, depending on you r translation). Do you think it is we who do the creating? If any man is in Christ, he IS a new creation. That which is born of the flesh is flesh (the old man), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (the new man).

I do not speak as though the old man is gone. I speak what the bible says, that the old man is declared dead, crucified with Christ. And since he is not gone in reality, therefore he is 'positionally' dead. In other words, God, who calls things that are not as though they were, has already placed the sentence of death upon the flesh. and considers the old man to be crucified with His Son. The part of us that is born again is our spirit. This is that which carries the righteous nature of God, and that which we are to put on.

So we can see that we carry about in our being, both natures. We have the sin of Adam and the righteousness of God. And our flesh lusts against our new spirit, which are at odds with one another.

When we sin, it is the old man that is held responsible, who is doomed to die. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And when we bear fruit, it is of the new man. I can assure you that every Christian does both to one degree or another. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7).

The travesty is the confusing of our instructions to bear fruit with that being what qualifies us for everlasting life. The penalty of the law is death. The wages of sin s death. But through faith in Him, we have passed from death to life, having everlasting life, and will not come under judgment. All three of these facts are mentioned in one verse, John 5:24.

Therefore, as the subject of the op is the law, we are no longer under the penalty of the law. Whatever obligations we have to live a moral life, this is no longer punishable by death nor rewarded with life. We are not under law but under grace.

As Children of the most high, the law is not enforced in us by threat of eternal death, but by chastening, as all children are chastened and corrected by their parents. As well, the thing which brought us into this son-ship was not obedience to law, but it was the humility of accepting the free gift of life by way of the work and sacrifice of Jesus. God gives grace to the humble. The parable in Luke 18:10-14 should remind us that we are never going to get away with presenting our works or our life to God for justification.

We are saved because God is good, not because we are. In fact, in Math 20:1-16, we are given a story of they who were hired at different parts of the day. At the end of the day, they who worked all day were incensed at the master for rewarding they who were hired last, with the exact same pay. After all, they did only a fraction of the work and were given the same as those who did the majority of it.

This story has nothing to do with when a person gets saved. It is about the goodness of God. It is also about man's tendency to want to justify himself and/or compare himself with others. In the end, the Master asks..."Is your eye evil because I am good?"

If God desires to save a humble sinner who is asking for mercy, knowing he doesn't deserve it, that is His business (Luke18:10-14).
If He desires to humble a proud man who is thinking he deserves to be rewarded for his efforts, then that is also His choice.

There is no law that was given that can give life nor that can declare a man righteous by it ( Gal.3:21). If we keep law, it is for other reasons, and not,.... (never) to justify us before God.
 

daq

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williemac said:
I have a life. But I have made many replies on this site for more than a few years. My time is not as available these days, I admit. But I can certainly defend my position with scripture.
No response to any the Scripture points from the previous page?
For the record the above was a response to this:

williemac said:
But all I see in this and other threads is consciousness of sin, reminder of sin, and guilt and judgment. So what is being believed here? And what is not believed?
And with this also in mind:

williemac said:
In Hebrews, where does it say no sanctification, no promise? It says no faith, no promise. Read the context. Faith is the will of God for us in that passage. In fact, Heb.10:14 speaks of past tense.."He has perfected forever those who are BEING sanctified". There are two sanctifications in scripture: The one He does in us in the spirit, and the one we do in the flesh. The first one is our salvation. The latter is not a requirement for salvation. It is a way we make ourselves useful to the Master. It is a relative term, as no one is completely or perfectly sanctified in their flesh and no one is really completely void of sanctification in the flesh.

The Thess. reference cannot be cross referenced with the Heb. reference, as they are in reference to different subjects. But the Thess. passage does not put salvation on the line. God may well avenge, but whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. That is His promise to us. Paul nowhere says that God will remove His Holy Spirit from His children. We do not cast out our own children, but rather discipline them and correct them. Are we more merciful than God? When a person has judgment and wrath on the brain, he will read it into places where it does not exist. We were promised that because of our faith in Him, we would be exempt from judgment. Read this for yourself in John 5:24, and then please reply to that verse if you are serious about your convictions. I wait with baited breath. Except I will be away until Sunday evening. Have a nice weekend. Blessings in Him.
Which thread you never responded back to after that. What I said is above not judging but simply stating the truth. And if you are going to go around keeping the doctrines of everyone else in line with yours then at least try to be consistent. :)

Robertson said:
I know us Christians have a faith in Christ and believe that He came to fulfill the law and we no longer are required to keep it, but where do the 10 commandments come in. Those seem to be pretty strong in the churches even today, but were they not part of the law of Moses? Why do we say that we don't have to keep the law of Moses, but we must keep the 10 commandments that Moses gave? This is a question I have in my mind right now and I have not thought of a suitable answer as of yet. I was hoping a few of you had some ideas.

Before you offer some ideas, let me just clear something up. I am not suggesting that we need to go back to the Law of Moses or that we need to keep all or none of it. It just seems to me that a lot of attention is put on the 10 commandments and yet no other consideration is given to the other parts of the law of Moses and I've never heard a reason as to why. Thanks!
Rather than being "abolished" or "done away with" Torah of Moses was CONFIRMED by Messiah at the "Last Supper" or final Pesach Seder of the night before the Crucifixion. All of the Covenants of Torah were confirmed including the Covenant to Noah, (and all flesh) the Covenant to Abraham, the Mosaic Torah, the Covenant to Aaron and his sons, and the Covenant to Phinehas the son of Eleazar-Lazaros of an everlasting Covenant of Peace. Likewise in addition the Covenant of Salt to David was confirmed and the promise-oath-prophecy given to Daniel in the famous Daniel 9:24-27 passage concerning decree of "seventy seventies-generations-weeks". The word "kainos" ("new") is not found in Matthew 26:28 or Mark 14:24 except in the AV-Textus Receptus used for translating primarily the KJV and Young's Literal Bible. Of the much more reliable "GNT Morph" compilation texts none of them have "kainos" for "new covenant" in those two passages but rather only the single word "diatheke" (covenant). The only of the three companion passages which has "kainos-diatheke" ("new covenant") in the Greek is the Luke passage.

Daniel 9:27 KJV
27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Matthew 26:26-29 ASV
26. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27. And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28. for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

Mark 14:22-24 ASV
22. And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take ye: this is my body.
23. And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it.
24. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22:15-20 ASV
15. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16. for I say unto you, I shall not eat it, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17. And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18. for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19. And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20. And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.


As may clearly be seen the first cup is either at the beginning of the Seder or during the Seder yet the "New Covenant" is not mentioned until the other cup which comes AFTER the Seder. Thus Yeshua CONFIRMS all Torah Covenants with the first cup and clearly states "for many" (Daniel 9:27) and only after the Seder does he institute the New Covenant, ("with you" says the passage in all accounts) showing that one must first partake of the Passover-Pesach Seder of Messiah and, thus, partake of his sufferings with him BEFORE the New Covenant commences. This is to each in his or her own appointed times, and no man knows the day nor the hour, but the Father only, for that cup we drink anew with Messiah in the Kingdom of the Father in that day. :)
 

Mungo

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In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1Cor 11:25)

“…..who has indeed qualified us as ministers of a new covenant” (2Cor 3:6)

“…to that same degree has Jesus (also) become the guarantee of an (even) better covenant.”(Heb 7:22)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. But he finds fault with them and says:
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,
when I will conclude a new covenant with
the house of Israel and the house of Judah. (Heb 8:7-8)

When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. (Heb 8:13)

For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. (Heb 9:15)

Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.(Heb 12:24)

[SIZE=11pt]Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter.[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt](Rom 7:1-6) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]We are put to death to the Law[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]We are released from the Law[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Galatians 3[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], especially:
Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian.
(Gal 3:23-25).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]We are not under the Law[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Note also [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Gal 5: 4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims,[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (Eph [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]When he speaks of a “new” covenant, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (Heb [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]8:13[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]He takes away the first to establish the second [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt](Heb 10:9)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]:14[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]-15)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The Law has been abolished.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious?[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (2 Cor 3:7-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]What was carved in letters on stone and therefore described as “the ministry of death”. Answer – the Ten Commandments[/SIZE]
 

daq

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williemac said:
I do not speak as though the old man is gone. I speak what the bible says, that the old man is declared dead, crucified with Christ. And since he is not gone in reality, therefore he is 'positionally' dead. In other words, God, who calls things that are not as though they were, has already placed the sentence of death upon the flesh. and considers the old man to be crucified with His Son. The part of us that is born again is our spirit. This is that which carries the righteous nature of God, and that which we are to put on.

So we can see that we carry about in our being, both natures. We have the sin of Adam and the righteousness of God. And our flesh lusts against our new spirit, which are at odds with one another.

When we sin, it is the old man that is held responsible, who is doomed to die. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. And when we bear fruit, it is of the new man. I can assure you that every Christian does both to one degree or another. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7).
Where in the greatest commandment does it say anything about loving God "with all of you spirit"?

It is the SOUL which is in danger of loss:

Mark 12:29-30 KJV
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.


Matthew 10:26-28 KJV
26. Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Matthew 16:24-27 KJV
24. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Hebrews 10:39 KJV
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Your soul must be transformed into spirit which may only occur through the walk of faithfulness in Messiah.
The soul is the "treasure in an earthen vessel" and is not a "throw away item" as you appear to presume.

williemac said:
As Children of the most high, the law is not enforced in us by threat of eternal death, but by chastening, as all children are chastened and corrected by their parents. As well, the thing which brought us into this son-ship was not obedience to law, but it was the humility of accepting the free gift of life by way of the work and sacrifice of Jesus.
If one has never been under the "schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:20-29) then the same has not fully come to Messiah:

Galatians 4:1-2 KJV
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.


Mungo said:
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1Cor 11:25)
Paul is quoting Luke and the cup which came AFTER the Seder from the passage quoted in my previous post above.
The rest of what you speak comes with the "abolition" of the vail of the eyes and mind of the flesh, (each in his appointed times). :)
 

Mungo

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daq said:
Paul is quoting Luke and the cup which came AFTER the Seder from the passage quoted in my previous post above.
Doesn't matter. The new covenant came into force when Jesus died on the cross. That was the blood of the new covenant.

As Hebrews says [SIZE=12pt]"Thus not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. [/SIZE]" Heb 9:18)
daq said:
The rest of what you speak comes with the "abolition" of the vail of the eyes and mind of the flesh, (each in his appointed times). :)
That's a load of Bull to avoid answering the scriptures that show you are wrong.