Is all of the law of Moses finished?

daq · Jun 21, 2013

Mungo said:
Doesn't matter. The new covenant came into force when Jesus died on the cross. That was the blood of the new covenant.

As Hebrews says [SIZE=12pt]"Thus not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. [/SIZE]" Heb 9:18)

That's a load of Bull to avoid answering the scriptures that show you are wrong.

There is an entire thread about 2 Corinthians 3 and the vail which remains over the hearts and minds of those who refuse to truly repent. The "vail" concerns the SKIN of the face of Moses which was indeed "done away" because it was FLESH.

daq said:
Yes, the skin (Exodus 34:29-35 KJV) of the face of Moses shone with such glory that his countenance needed to be vailed. And that glory which shone in the skin of his face was of course "done away" because the skin of his face was flesh. What a beautiful contrast the Scripture makes between "the Flesh" and the Spirit. Nevertheless when the heart shall truly repent and turn to the Father then the vail of the flesh is taken away through the Testimony of Messiah, (for the flesh profits nothing and the words of Yeshua are Spirit and Life from the Father). And what remains when the mind and eyes of the flesh are dissolved is the Spirit of Torah: then the vail over the heart and mind which keeps one from understanding the Covenants is finally done away. Therefore every scribe which is discipled into the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder which brings forth out of his thesauros-treasury things new and old.

The most "evident" truth of Scripture - Reply #74

As may clearly be seen in that thread; neither you, nor "williemac", nor "HiddenManna", (who was the OP thread starter) nor anyone else had anything thing to say concerning those comments stated there. Perhaps some "manna" is not quite so "evident" to those who continue to wear a vail over the heart, mind, and eyes because they continue to see all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural man. The goal according to Paul is not to "abolish" Torah or the Old Testament-Covenant but rather to have the vail removed from your own heart so that you might understand it the Way in which it was originally intended according to the doctrines and teachings of the Teacher given in his Testimony. Torah is Spirit.

Likewise from Reply #3 of this very thread:

daq said:
Likewise there is no excuse for not diving into Torah so as to begin to allow the Master to teach us from Torah, (which is Spirit and now understood according to the teachings and doctrines of Yeshua given in the Gospel accounts). Paul likewise explains that the goal is not to "abolish the Law" but rather to have the "vail" removed from our own hearts, eyes, and minds so that we may begin to understand Torah and know our God. It is the vail, (eyes and mind of the flesh) that is done away in Messiah and not Torah itself:

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 KJV
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Seems the problem with most is the tendency to ignore the Scripture portions that disagree with their own mindset.
The same which do such things make themselves the "kings" of their own truth. Talk about a vail . . . :lol:

williemac · Jun 22, 2013

daq said:
There is an entire thread about 2 Corinthians 3 and the vail which remains over the hearts and minds of those who refuse to truly repent. The "vail" concerns the SKIN of the face of Moses which was indeed "done away" because it was FLESH.

The most "evident" truth of Scripture - Reply #74

As may clearly be seen in that thread; neither you, nor "williemac", nor "HiddenManna", (who was the OP thread starter) nor anyone else had anything thing to say concerning those comments stated there. Perhaps some "manna" is not quite so "evident" to those who continue to wear a vail over the heart, mind, and eyes because they continue to see all things according to the eyes and mind of the natural man. The goal according to Paul is not to "abolish" Torah or the Old Testament-Covenant but rather to have the vail removed from your own heart so that you might understand it the Way in which it was originally intended according to the doctrines and teachings of the Teacher given in his Testimony. Torah is Spirit.

Likewise from Reply #3 of this very thread:

Seems the problem with most is the tendency to ignore the Scripture portions that disagree with their own mindset.
The same which do such things make themselves the "kings" of their own truth. Talk about a vail . . . :lol:

Speaking of ignoring scripture, John 5:24 reveals that by faith, one instantly receives everlasting life and the promise that one will not come into judgment. Please address this passage and give us your reasoning why it is not true.

But if you must know...I did reply to the message in that post (74), though not directly. I in many threads, have challenged the typical definition of 'repentance" that is thrown about . It means to change one's mind. It doesn't mean specifically to turn from sin. From passages that I and others have shared, we can see that the mindset that we are required to have is an understanding that sin is wrong, the law is good, and that we do not have the ability within ourselves to change our nature. Because of this acknowledgment, everlasting life is given by way of our confession of sin and our acceptance of the forgiveness offered through the sacrifice of Jesus. This is the repentance that leads to life. But life is something we possess now through faith, not sometime in the future. He who has the Son has life. The repentance that applies in most cases is that of unbelief. One needs to turn, change his mind, and believe.

You disagree? Then please explain why turning from sin is not mentioned in Rom.10:9,10. In that passage, Paul tells them how salvation is obtained. It is through one's heart's belief, and confession. I think some people here need to change their mind and simply trust in the sacrifice of Jesus for their well being and right standing before God. Those who feel that they are right with God because of their behavior, have something of which to boast. However, God will humble the proud. He will resist the proud. He gives grace to the humble. There are those who need to repent from trying to save their own life.

daq · Jun 22, 2013

williemac said:
Speaking of ignoring scripture, John 5:24 reveals that by faith, one instantly receives everlasting life and the promise that one will not come into judgment. Please address this passage and give us your reasoning why it is not true.

But if you must know...I did reply to the message in that post (74), though not directly. I in many threads, have challenged the typical definition of 'repentance" that is thrown about . It means to change one's mind. It doesn't mean specifically to turn from sin. From passages that I and others have shared, we can see that the mindset that we are required to have is an understanding that sin is wrong, the law is good, and that we do not have the ability within ourselves to change our nature. Because of this acknowledgment, everlasting life is given by way of our confession of sin and our acceptance of the forgiveness offered through the sacrifice of Jesus. This is the repentance that leads to life. But life is something we possess now through faith, not sometime in the future. He who has the Son has life. The repentance that applies in most cases is that of unbelief. One needs to turn, change his mind, and believe.

You disagree? Then please explain why turning from sin is not mentioned in Rom.10:9,10. In that passage, Paul tells them how salvation is obtained. It is through one's heart's belief, and confession. I think some people here need to change their mind and simply trust in the sacrifice of Jesus for their well being and right standing before God. Those who feel that they are right with God because of their behavior, have something of which to boast. However, God will humble the proud. He will resist the proud. He gives grace to the humble. There are those who need to repent from trying to save their own life.

If you had understood what I claimed to believe when I quoted the clear emphatic statements of Yeshua in Reply#3 of this thread then you would not feel the need to suggest that I lied about what I believe. In other words I already answered to the verse you quote from John because I already clearly showed the teaching of the Master that our heavenly Father will forgive us our debts and trespasses if we forgive others their debts and trespasses to ourselves. However, you apparently cannot see what is written on the first page because you also have the vail of your own paradigm over your heart and mind which blinds you from the truth in those clear statements from Yeshua. Therefore it is really not myself that you suggest to be a liar is it? When you suggest that I do not believe the Scripture? For you know the words that I quoted are not my own but your mindset cannot allow you to let Torah live because it would mean that you actually have a way to live out and show your LOVE for God the Father in the Spirit of his Word. How then are you any different than Antiochus Epiphanes who commanded that every follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, was to discontinue the Holy Word and Torah of the Old Covenant and burn it in the fire. He did it by force of death but you attempt to accomplish the same things by force of excommunication when you twist the words of Galatians and other such passages proclaiming that anyone who will heed Torah has "fallen from grace" (and some of you here even say this of the Ten Words).

daq said:
The "royal law" concerns the two greatest commandments to love God first and then your neighbor as yourself, (Mark 12:29-31). What then does the Scripture truly speak of when we read of the "law of liberty" in the Epistle of James?

James 2:8-13 KJV
8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

The Scripture gives us the all important clue when James writes, paraphrased, "The one who shows no mercy will likewise have judgment without mercy." Thus the reference is to the clear statement and even "commandment" of Yeshua which likewise states:

Matthew 6:9-15 KJV
9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This statement is emphatic and plain as day; without need of any further explanation or expounding: "If you forgive men their trespasses then your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses then neither will your heavenly Father forgive your own trespasses." Therefore the "law of liberty" of which James writes concerns the clear emphatic statement which is a promise that we will not be judged under the Law of Moses if we are willing to love our neighbor so far as to forgive others their trespasses. This is the doctrine of the Master himself as shown also in the following parable:

Matthew 18:23-35 KJV
23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

And again, although this is a parable, the moral of the parable at the conclusion is a clear emphatic statement. Therefore what man has any excuse to render Torah, (the Law of Moses) of "none effect" or what purpose is there in attempting to "abolish" Torah? For what reason does it even need to be abrogated? We are clearly informed that we will not be judged according to the Law of Moses if we forgive others their trespasses. In fact when we forgive others we do perform the supernal sacrifice of a certain amount of pride and self justification knowing that someone else had owed us a debt. Therefore we establish the Law because pride is likened to a sa`iyr-goat. Likewise there is no excuse for not diving into Torah so as to begin to allow the Master to teach us from Torah, (which is Spirit and now understood according to the teachings and doctrines of Yeshua given in the Gospel accounts). Paul likewise explains that the goal is not to "abolish the Law" but rather to have the "vail" removed from our own hearts, eyes, and minds so that we may begin to understand Torah and know our God. It is the vail, (eyes and mind of the flesh) that is done away in Messiah and not Torah itself:

2 Corinthians 3:14-18 KJV
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The other James passage concerning the "law of liberty" now rings truer than before:

James 1:22-25 KJV
22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [reverse symbolism of 2 Corinthians 3:18]
24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

You have not answered to this yet so how is it that you can imagine I do not believe John 5:24?
Perhaps it is yourself that likewise does not perceive the truth of this passage also because of your vail:

John 5:24-29 KJV
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 8:30-32 KJV
30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Apparently you stopped at John 5:24 to "marvel" because you have not continued in the doctrine-word of the Master . . .

Harry3142 · Jun 22, 2013

The laws and commandments found in Torah (commonly called 'The Mosaic law') were never intended as a 'roadmap to heaven'. Instead, their purpose was as the means whereby the Hebrews could form a strong, cohesive society, where each member of that society would know what his rights and responsibilities were to God and his fellow citizens. That is why the Sadducees saw them as needing to be obeyed, although their sect believed that there was no afterlife or resurrection.

Even the reward for keeping The Mosaic Law, including The Ten Commandments, was a purely societal one, with no mention of an afterlife even existing, muchless being attainable:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

By the time of Christ's coming among us there were those who believed that there was an afterlife to be attained. Principal among these were the Pharisees, a Jewish sect who believed that there would be a resurrection of the righteous at some future date. But in order to be seen as righteous the people had to obey not only the original laws and commandments of Torah, including The Ten Commandments, but also quite literally 1,000's of laws which the sect had attached to those laws and commandments via subsets. The Sabbath commandment alone had well over 1,000 laws in a subset attach to it, so in order to obey that one commandment in a manner that would ensure righteousness, they had to obey every one of those 1,000+ laws. The other commandments had their subsets, so there were easily 10's of 1,000's of laws which needed to be obeyed.

And why were there all of these laws? It was due to the fact that even the Pharisees, who believed in an afterlife, did not believe that the original laws of Torah were sufficient. They saw them for what they were, namely, societal laws which enabled a people to form a cohesive society, rather than their being the means of attaining perfect righteousness. So they kept adding other laws to them in an effort to convert them from being societal to being salvific, but the only thing they accomplished was to make those laws increasingly burdensome for the people.

daq · Jun 22, 2013

Harry3142 said:
The laws and commandments found in Torah (commonly called 'The Mosaic law') were never intended as a 'roadmap to heaven'. Instead, their purpose was as the means whereby the Hebrews could form a strong, cohesive society, where each member of that society would know what his rights and responsibilities were to God and his fellow citizens. That is why the Sadducees saw them as needing to be obeyed, although their sect believed that there was no afterlife or resurrection.

Even the reward for keeping The Mosaic Law, including The Ten Commandments, was a purely societal one, with no mention of an afterlife even existing, muchless being attainable:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

By the time of Christ's coming among us there were those who believed that there was an afterlife to be attained. Principal among these were the Pharisees, a Jewish sect who believed that there would be a resurrection of the righteous at some future date. But in order to be seen as righteous the people had to obey not only the original laws and commandments of Torah, including The Ten Commandments, but also quite literally 1,000's of laws which the sect had attached to those laws and commandments via subsets. The Sabbath commandment alone had well over 1,000 laws in a subset attach to it, so in order to obey that one commandment in a manner that would ensure righteousness, they had to obey every one of those 1,000+ laws. The other commandments had their subsets, so there were easily 10's of 1,000's of laws which needed to be obeyed.

And why were there all of these laws? It was due to the fact that even the Pharisees, who believed in an afterlife, did not believe that the original laws of Torah were sufficient. They saw them for what they were, namely, societal laws which enabled a people to form a cohesive society, rather than their being the means of attaining perfect righteousness. So they kept adding other laws to them in an effort to convert them from being societal to being salvific, but the only thing they accomplished was to make those laws increasingly burdensome for the people.

Most of this is neither here nor there because it concerns the doctrines, ordinances, and commandments of men, which Yeshua and likewise Paul railed against. I speak of the Spirit of Torah, the Spirit of Grace, the lighter yoke of Yeshua, (which is still a yoke whether people desire to admit it or not). Torah is now Spirit according to the teachings and doctrines of the Teacher of Righteousness himself.

OXEN ~ Yeshua was not ashamed to call us brethren:

Hebrews 2:9-12
9. But we see Yeshua, who was made a little lower than the messengers for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto thee.

Matthew 12:48-50
48. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49. And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 11:25-30
25. At that time Yeshua answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

And what is the "yoke" of Yeshua? Not only is it his teaching and interpretation of Torah but perhaps also the yoke is like the "brotherly yoke" of a pair of oxen. And although Yeshua is the Captain and the Head of the body of the great congregation he also was not ashamed to call us brethren; like a big brother he has gone before us, bearing the portion of the burden which would have killed us if we went it alone. Yet when we follow with him we are pictured as yoked beside him, and thus, we do take up our own cross and follow with him; keeping pace as we learn his doctrine. Perhaps the crossbar of the cattle yoke is pictured much like the crossbeam of the crucifix. Perhaps even his arms spread out on the cross may be likened to his yoke of consolation over his little brothers? Surely the things we must endure are nothing in comparison to what Yeshua has done for us.

Oxen represent people according to the Doctrine:

1 Corinthians 9:6-10
6. Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7. Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1 Timothy 5:17-18
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Doth YHWH take care for oxen?
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes?
For our sakes, no doubt, this is written:

Deuteronomy 25:4
4. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

So then if the commandments concerning oxen pertain to man then we have a great new thesauros-treasure house of wealth in Torah to glean from. Perhaps even that "goodly price" of which Yeshua was valued is related to the same commandments concerning oxen:

Zechariah 11:12-13
12. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

Matthew 26:14-15
14. Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15. And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

Exodus 21:32
32. If the ox shall push (HSN#5055 nagach) a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

Original Strong's Ref. #5055
Romanized nagach
Pronounced naw-gakh'
a primitive root; to but with the horns; figuratively, to war against:
KJV--gore, push (down, -ing).

Therefore if a "wild ox" or "bullock" butts or pushes with the horns what is the Doctrine of the Teacher of Righteousness?

"TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!"

And that is surely a difficult one for each of us yet in so doing we might just be storing up treasures in heaven perhaps even thirty shekels at a time. But if we push back and "gore with the horns" to get even then do we not have our reward even though we may have been justified in pushing back? And if we love only those who love us then what reward have we according to the Doctrine? Do not the Publicans and Democrats do the same when they love their own kind?

Matthew 5:39-48
39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [carnal ordinances]
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 12:31-34
31. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
32. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

We know that Luke traveled with Paul for some time as revealed in the Book of the Acts and from other references recorded in several of the Epistles of Paul. We know also that Luke penned the Book of the Acts which was probably penned along with, (but following after) the Gospel of Luke. Paul therefore clearly gets his interpretations of Torah concerning cattle, oxen, bulls, and bullocks, directly from the Master as recorded in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:10-17
10. And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
11. And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12. And when Yeshua saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13. And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14. And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Yeshua had healed on the Sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.
15. The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16. And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?
17. And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Why were all his adversaries ashamed at this teaching? Why does Yeshua call them specifically "HYPOCRITES" in this case? What else can be hypocritical of them except for their TEACHINGS? Therefore he calls them hypocrites because of their DOCTRINE. If then the original intent of Torah was that these animals, oxen, and donkeys represented PEOPLE then their own misunderstanding and misinterpretation of Torah had literally turned them into hypocrites for perverting the Truth. And this they did by seeing and interpreting the commandments only according to the eyes and mind of the flesh. Yeshua then likens the woman to an ox or a donkey; and paraphrased the Master basically says in idiom:

If it is lawful to lead out your ox or donkey to watering on the Sabbath then HOW MUCH MORE THIS WOMAN!

Again in the very next chapter of Luke:

Luke 14:3-6
3. And Yeshua answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath day?
4. And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5. And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have a donkey or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the Sabbath day?
6. And they could not answer him again to these things.

And again the idiom paraphrased:

If it is lawful to save your ox or donkey from a pit on the Sabbath then HOW MUCH MORE THIS MAN!

And they had no answer because they never understood that certain of the animals in Torah represent PEOPLE.
Likewise certain other animals represent genos and spirit; whether for the good, or whether for the evil.

Raeneske · Jun 22, 2013

Robertson said:
I know us Christians have a faith in Christ and believe that He came to fulfill the law and we no longer are required to keep it, but where do the 10 commandments come in. Those seem to be pretty strong in the churches even today, but were they not part of the law of Moses? Why do we say that we don't have to keep the law of Moses, but we must keep the 10 commandments that Moses gave? This is a question I have in my mind right now and I have not thought of a suitable answer as of yet. I was hoping a few of you had some ideas.

Before you offer some ideas, let me just clear something up. I am not suggesting that we need to go back to the Law of Moses or that we need to keep all or none of it. It just seems to me that a lot of attention is put on the 10 commandments and yet no other consideration is given to the other parts of the law of Moses and I've never heard a reason as to why. Thanks!

From my own studies, I cannot conclude that the 10 Commandments is a part of the Law of Moses. In many places in Scripture, the law of Moses is mentioned as the book of the law, and it is sometimes also called the law of God. But never is the 10 Commandments referenced as the law of Moses. Are the 10 Commandments part of the old covenant, the covenant that was made on Mount Sinai? Yes.

Deuteronomy 4:13 - And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 9:9 - When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

With that said, the Scriptures have clearly referenced differences between the two laws, but both were part of the Old Covenant. We can find the 10 Commandments stored within the ark of the LORD. Deuteronomy 10:2 - And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark. We can find the book of the law however upon the SIDE of the ark of the LORD. Deuteronomy 31:26 - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. We see that God wrote the 10 Commandments with His own finger (Exodus 31:8, Deuteronomy 9:10) and that the "Law of Moses" or the "Book of the Law" was written by Moses himself (Deuteronomy 31:24). We can also find when Israel lost the ark of the LORD that when found or returned they found nothing within except for the tables of the covenant, that being the 10 Commandments (1 Kings 8:9, 2 Chronicles 5:10).

The difference between the two laws is further illustrated in the New Testament. In Colossians 2:14-17, we find that the "handwriting of ordinances.... meat, drink... sabbath days..." were nailed to the cross. The same thing is thus repeated in Ephesians 2:15 calling the it the "law of commandments contained in ordinances". What this is referring to is the book of the law, for the 10 Commandments do not contains handwriting or ordinances, meat, drink, or those sabbath days, or new moons, etc. Hebrews 9:1-10 calls them ordinances of divine service, as once again calling them meat, drinks, and washings. But all these ordinances are considered carnal ordinances. Hebrews 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. With that said, it is evident that the cardinal ordinances were nailed to the cross. But what was made of the 10 Commandments, the commandments in stone?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The laws of God were going to be written upon our hearts, according to this prophecy. Hebrews 8:5-13 confirms that this did in fact happen, repeating that God would put His laws within our hearts and in our mind. This better testament is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3 as well, where it is stated that "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." The law then, the tables of stone, are what was written upon our hearts.

It is seen then, that the carnal ordinances contained in the book of the law were nailed to the cross. But the tablets of stone were put into our hearts and minds, written there as we should be obedient to them. This shows the existence of the 10 Commandments within the new and better covenant. Yes, the old Covenant did pass away as Hebrews 8 does in fact mention. But every single principle within the old covenant did not vanish away. The covenant passed away, but every single principle did not vanish away. For example "Thou shalt not kill" still exists today, and it is written on the tablets of the heart. Jesus showed that even hating your brother in your heart makes you a transgressor of that law. As Romans 7:6 says that now that we are dead to that law, we are to serve it in the newness of Spirit.

Some will misinterpret this to mean that we are dead to having to obey the law. This is not what this means. The wages of sin is death. Therefore you have been slain by the law, in Christ. So now that you are alive, you are not to disobey, but obey the law once again. Not in the old fashion, which was only outwardly manifested, and had no regeneration of the heart, but in the "newness of spirit". To be dead to the law, I repeat, is to have been slain by the law. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, for they have been slain already, by the body of Christ. The law does not condemn them anymore. (Romans 7:1-4). However, should they consider after accepting Christ to walk in blatant disobedience, then they shall be slain. James 2:8-13 destroys any pretended obedience to God, while blatantly disobeying His commandments. It requires us as Christians to be obedient to the 10 Commandments in every single point, or else you become guilty of the entire thing. Hebrews 10:26 shows that if we continue to willfully sin (1 John 3:4 defines sin, as "transgression of the law"), then there shall remain no more sacrifice for our sins. Jesus Christ will step out of the way, as the Christian draws back into perdition.

It was also mentioned, the law contained in ordinances was considered carnal, and all the references point to the law of Moses, the book of the law. However, the 10 Commandments are considered spiritual as per Romans 7:14. And those who have yet carnal minds will not be subjected to the law of God (Romans 8:6-7). Only the Spirit will subject itself to the 10 Commandments, and obey.

I therefore conclude as the Scriptures say that the Saints have right to the tree of life when they obey the commandments of God (Revelation 22:14). But who are the true saints? Revelation 14:12 tells us the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." And also notice this Revelation 11:19 opens up the temple of God. Within the temple of God is found the ark of the testament. This appearance of the law of 10 Commandments in heaven follows the same thunders, and lightnings as found in Exodus 20:1-18 after the 10 Commandments are spoken. And as was said earlier, the 10 Commandments were found within the ark, and always placed within that ark.

Hope this helps!

ScottAU · Jun 22, 2013

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Oh yes, of course... The selective obedience of convenience... or shall I say, of unbelief.

What do you mean by, 'We're subject to the morality set forth in the law, but not the "carnal ordinances." By saying morality, I assume you mean righteousness. How are we subject to something we have been given, i.e., righteousness? When I'm given something, I possess it.
'

Here is an excellent video which addresses your query...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1322Tb9SGE[/youtube]

John Piper quotes some old false teachers and claims that the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer by trusting in His Provision by faith. WHERE Does the Bible say that Christ imputed His own personal righteousness to us? NO WHERE! Righteouness is DOING the Right thing by faith! Video by Mike DeSario of Standing the Gap. www.standingthegap.org

daq · Jun 22, 2013

Raeneske said:
From my own studies, I cannot conclude that the 10 Commandments is a part of the Law of Moses. In many places in Scripture, the law of Moses is mentioned as the book of the law, and it is sometimes also called the law of God. But never is the 10 Commandments referenced as the law of Moses. Are the 10 Commandments part of the old covenant, the covenant that was made on Mount Sinai? Yes.

Deuteronomy 4:13 - And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 9:9 - When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

With that said, the Scriptures have clearly referenced differences between the two laws, but both were part of the Old Covenant. We can find the 10 Commandments stored within the ark of the LORD. Deuteronomy 10:2 - And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark. We can find the book of the law however upon the SIDE of the ark of the LORD. Deuteronomy 31:26 - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. We see that God wrote the 10 Commandments with His own finger (Exodus 31:8, Deuteronomy 9:10) and that the "Law of Moses" or the "Book of the Law" was written by Moses himself (Deuteronomy 31:24). We can also find when Israel lost the ark of the LORD that when found or returned they found nothing within except for the tables of the covenant, that being the 10 Commandments (1 Kings 8:9, 2 Chronicles 5:10).

The difference between the two laws is further illustrated in the New Testament. In Colossians 2:14-17, we find that the "handwriting of ordinances.... meat, drink... sabbath days..." were nailed to the cross. The same thing is thus repeated in Ephesians 2:15 calling the it the "law of commandments contained in ordinances". What this is referring to is the book of the law, for the 10 Commandments do not contains handwriting or ordinances, meat, drink, or those sabbath days, or new moons, etc. Hebrews 9:1-10 calls them ordinances of divine service, as once again calling them meat, drinks, and washings. But all these ordinances are considered carnal ordinances. Hebrews 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. With that said, it is evident that the cardinal ordinances were nailed to the cross. But what was made of the 10 Commandments, the commandments in stone?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The laws of God were going to be written upon our hearts, according to this prophecy. Hebrews 8:5-13 confirms that this did in fact happen, repeating that God would put His laws within our hearts and in our mind. This better testament is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3 as well, where it is stated that "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." The law then, the tables of stone, are what was written upon our hearts.

It is seen then, that the carnal ordinances contained in the book of the law were nailed to the cross. But the tablets of stone were put into our hearts and minds, written there as we should be obedient to them. This shows the existence of the 10 Commandments within the new and better covenant. Yes, the old Covenant did pass away as Hebrews 8 does in fact mention. But every single principle within the old covenant did not vanish away. The covenant passed away, but every single principle did not vanish away. For example "Thou shalt not kill" still exists today, and it is written on the tablets of the heart. Jesus showed that even hating your brother in your heart makes you a transgressor of that law. As Romans 7:6 says that now that we are dead to that law, we are to serve it in the newness of Spirit.

Some will misinterpret this to mean that we are dead to having to obey the law. This is not what this means. The wages of sin is death. Therefore you have been slain by the law, in Christ. So now that you are alive, you are not to disobey, but obey the law once again. Not in the old fashion, which was only outwardly manifested, and had no regeneration of the heart, but in the "newness of spirit". To be dead to the law, I repeat, is to have been slain by the law. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, for they have been slain already, by the body of Christ. The law does not condemn them anymore. (Romans 7:1-4). However, should they consider after accepting Christ to walk in blatant disobedience, then they shall be slain. James 2:8-13 destroys any pretended obedience to God, while blatantly disobeying His commandments. It requires us as Christians to be obedient to the 10 Commandments in every single point, or else you become guilty of the entire thing. Hebrews 10:26 shows that if we continue to willfully sin (1 John 3:4 defines sin, as "transgression of the law"), then there shall remain no more sacrifice for our sins. Jesus Christ will step out of the way, as the Christian draws back into perdition.

It was also mentioned, the law contained in ordinances was considered carnal, and all the references point to the law of Moses, the book of the law. However, the 10 Commandments are considered spiritual as per Romans 7:14. And those who have yet carnal minds will not be subjected to the law of God (Romans 8:6-7). Only the Spirit will subject itself to the 10 Commandments, and obey.

I therefore conclude as the Scriptures say that the Saints have right to the tree of life when they obey the commandments of God (Revelation 22:14). But who are the true saints? Revelation 14:12 tells us the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." And also notice this Revelation 11:19 opens up the temple of God. Within the temple of God is found the ark of the testament. This appearance of the law of 10 Commandments in heaven follows the same thunders, and lightnings as found in Exodus 20:1-18 after the 10 Commandments are spoken. And as was said earlier, the 10 Commandments were found within the ark, and always placed within that ark.

Hope this helps!

Rightly divide because Horeb and Sinai are not the same in supernal understanding. Horeb is Spirit and of above while Sinai is carnal, physical, and of below. There is only one place found in Devarim where "Sinai" is mentioned and it is where Moses blesses the congregation with a song. The song prophesies the eventual transformation of Torah from Sinai, (carnal-flesh) to Horeb, (Spirit).

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 KJV
1. And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
2. And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Everywhere else in Devarim where the Mountain of God is mentioned it is Horeb.

Deuteronomy 1:1-6 KJV
1. These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
2. (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3. And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the Lord had given him in commandment unto them;
4. After he had slain Sihon the king of the Amorites, which dwelt in Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, which dwelt at Astaroth in Edrei:
5. On this side Jordan, in the land of Moab, began Moses to declare this law, saying,
6. The Lord our God spake unto us in Horeb, saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount:

Deuteronomy 1:19 KJV
19. And when we departed from Horeb, we went through all that great and terrible wilderness, which ye saw by the way of the mountain of the Amorites, as the Lord our God commanded us; and we came to Kadeshbarnea.

Deuteronomy 4:9-15 KJV
9. Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
10. Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11. And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12. And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

Chapter Five ~ The Ten Words

Deuteronomy 5:1-7 KJV
1. And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5. (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount

saying,
6. I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

This may help when looking again at Galatians 4 knowing what Paul, (for good reason) left out:

Galatians 4:21-26 KJV
21. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Sarah -vs- Hagar
Isaac -vs- Ishmael
Mt. Horeb -vs- Mt. Sinai
The Spirit -vs- The Flesh
Jerusalem of Above -vs- Jerusalem of Below

Deuteronomy 30:4-15 KJV
4. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5. And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9. And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10. If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. [Re: Romans 10]
12. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13. Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 22, 2013

ScottAU said:
Here is an excellent video which addresses your query...

Oh No! Not the cult guy DeSario!

daq · Jun 22, 2013

Raeneske said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The laws of God were going to be written upon our hearts, according to this prophecy. Hebrews 8:5-13 confirms that this did in fact happen, repeating that God would put His laws within our hearts and in our mind. This better testament is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3 as well, where it is stated that "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." The law then, the tables of stone, are what was written upon our hearts.

It is seen then, that the carnal ordinances contained in the book of the law were nailed to the cross. But the tablets of stone were put into our hearts and minds, written there as we should be obedient to them. This shows the existence of the 10 Commandments within the new and better covenant. Yes, the old Covenant did pass away as Hebrews 8 does in fact mention.

Likewise Hebrews 8 is a summary of what has thus far been discussed in the Epistle. Again, the only Covenant which was "disannulled" was that which was prophesied to be disannulled in Isaiah 28, (the "covenant with death") which was the covenant of the High Priesthood which was NOT given by an oath. That which "decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" concerns both the FLESH and the old covenant of the High Priesthood, not given by an oath, which did indeed pass away in 70AD.

Hebrews 8:1-6 KJV
1. Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2. A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5. Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

daq said:
The only portion of the Covenants to be "disannulled" was that which was already prophesied in Isaiah 28 to be disannulled which was "the covenant with death" spoken of therein. The same "covenant with death" is already proven to be the covenant of the High Priesthood which was NOT given by an oath. The Covenant to Aaron and his sons is an everlasting covenant of salt; likewise Phinehas the son of Eleazar-Lazaros was promised an everlasting Covenant of Peace which is fulfilled in Messiah. You were already in that thread so I post a link for others because it need not be rehashed here in this thread all over again with one who simply refuses to believe the Scripture:

Priesthood ~ Reply#21-54

Likewise the Law was not "changed" but rather "transformed" (fully supernal and Spirit) according to the new interpretation-understandings given by and through the Master whom the Father spoke through in the Gospel accounts. God does not "change" and neither does his Word. Yeshua paid for his Testimony with his blood, (which is the new and better Way interpretation of Torah) and thus by and in his own blood also CONFIRMED the Covenants and promises. True liberty does not come by the abolition of Truth but rather by the proper understanding of it. The one who "abolishes" the Truth in his mind does nothing more than sear his own conscience and remains dead.

Hebrews 7 ~ Reply#4

williemac · Jun 22, 2013

IBeMe said:
williemac: I noticed you stopped at vs. 28. But Vs. 39

my bad ... working on phone

williemac: Willful sin is sinning in unbelief.

You're making that up.

williemac: The term is found only once in scripture. We do not have the mandate to put our own definition to it, ...

God, Himself, defined it and you don't have the authority to change it.

LEV:4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD...

All sins except "ignorance" are sins with knowledge, therefore; "wilful".

williemac: We do not have the mandate to put our own definition to it, but should take care to examine the text to see what the author had in mind.

And then you proceed to do just that without understanding the difference between "wilful" sins, and sins of "ignorance."

williemac: But please reply to John 5:24.

JOH:5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But you can't ignore this...

JOH:15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If you don't keep Jesus commandments then you don't abide in His love.

JOH:15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

You can fool others by telling them they can ignore some scriptures that aren't comfortable to the flesh; but you won't be able to fool Jesus.

MAT:4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Nice try, my friend. I did not make up what the author of Hebrews said. In 10:39, he said that we (they) are no of those who draw back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. This is the conclusion of his context. But it did not begin in the 26th verse either. The author went into detail concerning the superiority of the sacrifice of Jesus over that of the blood of bulls and goats. He was speaking to they who were under these previous sacrifices. The letter was written to show how Jesus is superior to the angels, how his sacrifice is superior to those previous, and how faith is superior to works. He revealed that the one sacrifice accomplished things that the others could never accomplish, therefore negating the need for any further sacrifices to be made, and thus removing the previous sacrifices. But the conclusion given in vs. 39 demonstrates that the way to the saving of the soul is faith. He also made mention of the rejection of Moses, and the corresponding rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus.

We have two possible viewpoints from this. The one that some take is that one rejects the sacrifice by sinning deliberately. This is what you are calling willful sin. You are confusing willful sin with deliberate sin. If the author wanted to call it deliberate sin or even sin with knowledge, as you put it, do you not think he had the vocabulary to clarify it as such? I for one, do not make the practice of defining a term by running to another context. But this is what you seem to think is acceptable to do. I insist that in most cases, and especially this one, the context explains itself.

The viewpoint that I take is from the 39th verse. (context). The rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus is by way of unbelief. The opposite is the believing to the saving of the soul, as the verse plainly says. In fact, this verse is consistent with Rom.10:9,10.

As for your reply to John 5:24...well, you did not actually reply to it by explaining it. What you did was play the old paper covers rock game that many like to practice with the bible. You passed over the verse by quoting another one that I guess is somehow supposed to annul the first one. But I will reply to the one you are quoting. Jesus did in fact tell them to keep His commandments. But then we must find out just what these commandments are. We can see them in various places, but John sums them up in 1John 3:22, 23. Here is verse 23..." And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son and love one another, as He gave us commandment." The two new covenant commandments are faith, and love.

And as far as abiding in Christ Jesus, I concur that we are required to do just that. However why assume that we do this through obedience to law? We abide in Him the same way we entered into Him in the first place. By faith. This is the victory which overcomes the world...Our faith! (1John 5:4). It is all about faith. It always has been about faith. It always will be about faith. In every instance, faith comes up as the way to life, justification, righteousness, and pleasing God. And whenever one tries to mix the law into the equation for any of these...they repeat the folly of the Galatians. Faith and law are like oil and water. They are both valid and we need both. But they do not mix with one another. They have their own separate value.

Whenever we want to discuss what is required for life, justification, righteousness, and grace...the answer is always by faith and nothing added. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to they who believe (Rom.10:4) That is a big 10-4.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 22, 2013

ScottAU said:
WHERE Does the Bible say that Christ imputed His own personal righteousness to us? NO WHERE!

Yes where.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Romans 4:11

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:22-25

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (i.e., Christ) upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Corinthians 1:30

daq · Jun 22, 2013

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Yes where.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Romans 4:11

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:22-25

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (i.e., Christ) upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Corinthians 1:30

This is an empty theology when the works that Abraham did are removed or ignored.
Most people quote the following at this point but I do so to make a different point than the usual:

James 2:21-23 KJV
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Genesis 15:1-6 KJV
1. After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2. And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3. And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4. And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6. And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Where and when is this fulfilled according to James?

Genesis 22:1-2 KJV
1. And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

The span of time between these events is estimated anywhere between 25 to 45 years depending on the age of Isaac.

jiggyfly · Jun 23, 2013

daq said:
This is an empty theology when the works that Abraham did are removed or ignored.
Most people quote the following at this point but I do so to make a different point than the usual:

James 2:21-23 KJV
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Genesis 15:1-6 KJV
1. After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2. And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3. And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4. And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6. And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Where and when is this fulfilled according to James?

Genesis 22:1-2 KJV
1. And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

The span of time between these events is estimated anywhere between 25 to 45 years depending on the age of Isaac.

But according to scripture Isaac was not actually offered up, so was Abraham made righteous because of an incomplete work?

daq · Jun 23, 2013

jiggyfly said:
But according to scripture Isaac was not actually offered up, so was Abraham made righteous because of an incomplete work?

It is not about the deeds that Abraham did himself but rather that by faithfulness, patience, and trust, he not only understood what God told him to do but likewise did those things accordingly, (Spirit). When he was commanded to go into the land of Moriah and offer his only son to "ascend up" he then obeyed and went to the land of Moriah intending to do so, and was in the process of doing so, all things exactly as he was commanded to do, (even though Isaac was the son of the Spirit of the promise). And when God commanded Abraham to stop he then did likewise stop and thus was faithful unto the "bitter end" which was turned into joy as he received back his only son. If one will understand the deeper meaning that is the way he must see it even though Abraham surely had twain sons at the time.

williemac · Jun 23, 2013

daq said:
It is not about the deeds that Abraham did himself but rather that by faithfulness, patience, and trust, he not only understood what God told him to do but likewise did those things accordingly, (Spirit). When he was commanded to go into the land of Moriah and offer his only son to "ascend up" he then obeyed and went to the land of Moriah intending to do so, and was in the process of doing so, all things exactly as he was commanded to do, (even though Isaac was the son of the Spirit of the promise). And when God commanded Abraham to stop he then did likewise stop and thus was faithful unto the "bitter end" which was turned into joy as he received back his only son. If one will understand the deeper meaning that is the way he must see it even though Abraham surely had twain sons at the time.

Funny, but James never mentioned any of this. As well, he talked of the works of a harlot proving her faith. She was told that if she helped God's messengers, she would be spared. Did she suddenly become a lawkeeper and this is what proved her faith? No. She responded to what she was told and her response proved she believed it.

But this thread is about the law of Moses, whether it is finished. So what did Paul say about it?
Gal.4:22-26: " For it is written that Abraham had two sons; the one by the bondwoman, the other by the freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise. WHICH THINGS ARE SYMBOLIC. FOR THESE ARE THE TWO COVENANTS: THE ONE FROM MOUNT SINAI WHICH GIVES BIRTH TO BONDAGE, WHICH IS HAGAR. For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- but the Jerusalem above (spirit) is free, which is the mother of us all"
Which law came from Mount Sinai? The law of Moses: the ten commandments.

Abraham's attempt to help God fulfill his promise is seen in his son from Hagar. It represents a failure to believe God. Paul calls this son, that which was born according to the flesh. The flesh is that which is on the outside. But God looks at the heart.

In Rom.7, Paul reveals that he was in fact in agreement with the law. But he also acknowledged and admitted his inability to satisfy it. But because he was in agreement in principle with the law, therefore as he said in two places...when I sin it is not I who do it but sin in me. Because of his agreement with the law, his sin was removed from his identity.

This is spirit. It is a mindset. Paul mentions the mindset in Rom.8:5-7. He says that the carnal mind is at enmity against God because it is not subject to the law of God. But Rom.8 begins with "therefore". The spiritual mindset is seen in the previous chapter. It is that which is in agreement with the law and thus subject to it. But furthermore, the spiritual mind is also humble in recognizing and confessing one's inability to produce righteousness by way of the law. These two elements together need to be working together.

The spiritual mind accepts that the things which come from God are freely given by way of promise. This is seen in Rom.8:32. There is no coincidence that this verse is in Rom.8. But it will take humility to receive charity. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud, as James also mentioned (4:6). When God offers us that which we did not deserve nor can earn, what do we do? And more importantly, do our works prove that we believe the offer by promise, or do they prove that we are attempting to help God fulfill it, as Abraham did with Hagar? The one is spirit, the other flesh.

We can discuss all day long about what we should or shouldn't do. But what God is looking at is WHY!! He examines our motives. He who seeks to save his own life will lose it. There is only One savior.

IBeMe · Jun 23, 2013

williemac: Whenever we want to discuss what is required for life, justification, righteousness, and grace...the answer is always by faith and nothing added.

Salvation is forgiveness for sins that are past.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

After that; "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. "

daq · Jun 23, 2013

williemac said:
Abraham's attempt to help God fulfill his promise is seen in his son from Hagar. It represents a failure to believe God. Paul calls this son, that which was born according to the flesh.

Is that what it boils down to? You are willing to contradict the Scripture and say that Abraham did not believe so as to justify your own position? If Abraham did not believe then Ishmael would not have been born. Go look in the Eschatology Board: does no one there believe according to your standards just because they do not yet fully understand? It is not unbelief but rather seeing all things according to the eyes and mind of the flesh. The difference is the equivalent of "a child" becoming "a son" in the Kingdom of the Father who is the only Savior, (Yeshua is his right arm of Salvation; the shoulder and breast). However, such things cannot come without faith, patience, prayer, and washing in the water of the Word. This is another error in your positional stance of complete sanctification and justification based on a one time sinners prayer confession and single moment of conversion. To believe ON a name has nothing to do with confessing the spelling of a particular name but rather "a name" is defined by character, attribute, doctrine, and teachings. One must continue in the doctrines of the Master and enter into all of them to fully confess the name of Yeshua. Likewise the same who does so builds his house upon the Rock. The house is not built in a moment and neither with a single block of instruction.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 23, 2013

IBeMe said:
Salvation is forgiveness for sins that are past.

Salvation is forgiveness for all sin.

Raeneske · Jun 23, 2013

daq said:
Rightly divide because Horeb and Sinai are not the same in supernal understanding. Horeb is Spirit and of above while Sinai is carnal, physical, and of below. There is only one place found in Devarim where "Sinai" is mentioned and it is where Moses blesses the congregation with a song. The song prophesies the eventual transformation of Torah from Sinai, (carnal-flesh) to Horeb, (Spirit).

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 KJV
1. And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
2. And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Everywhere else in Devarim where the Mountain of God is mentioned it is Horeb.

Deuteronomy 1:1-6 KJV
1. These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
2. (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)
3. And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the Lord had given him in commandment unto them;
4. After he had slain Sihon the king of the Amorites, which dwelt in Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, which dwelt at Astaroth in Edrei:
5. On this side Jordan, in the land of Moab, began Moses to declare this law, saying,
6. The Lord our God spake unto us in Horeb, saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount:

Deuteronomy 1:19 KJV
19. And when we departed from Horeb, we went through all that great and terrible wilderness, which ye saw by the way of the mountain of the Amorites, as the Lord our God commanded us; and we came to Kadeshbarnea.

Deuteronomy 4:9-15 KJV
9. Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
10. Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11. And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12. And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

Chapter Five ~ The Ten Words

Deuteronomy 5:1-7 KJV
1. And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5. (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,
6. I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

This may help when looking again at Galatians 4 knowing what Paul, (for good reason) left out:

Galatians 4:21-26 KJV
21. Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Sarah -vs- Hagar
Isaac -vs- Ishmael
Mt. Horeb -vs- Mt. Sinai
The Spirit -vs- The Flesh
Jerusalem of Above -vs- Jerusalem of Below

Deuteronomy 30:4-15 KJV
4. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5. And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9. And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10. If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. [Re: Romans 10]
12. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13. Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

I cant make neither heads nor tails of this. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Is all of the law of Moses finished?

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