Shalom, ENOCH2010.
ENOCH2010 said:
That seems to me you don't believe in a literal second coming of Jesus. Am I understanding correctly?
daq said:
It depends on what you mean by "literal" because literal is SPIRIT and the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of the Master. I do not deny that Yeshua already came into the world in the flesh. However, a man can only give his flesh and blood once; for it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment. Are you suggesting that Yeshua must come again according to that which is visible to the eyes of the flesh when you say literal? If you are then essentially you are denying that he came in the flesh the first time. Likewise please clarify whether or not you accept the understanding of following New Covenant passage:
2 Corinthians 5:16 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
16. Hoste hemeis apo tou nun oudena oidamen katasarka, ei-kai egnokamen kata sarka Christon, alla nun ouketi ginoskomen.
2 Corinthians 5:14-16 KJV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15. And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16. Wherefore henceforth [GSN#575 apo+GSN#3568 nun] know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now [GSN#3568 nun] henceforth [GSN#3765 ouketi] know we him no more.
Original Strong's Ref. #3568
Romanized nun
Pronounced noon
a primary particle of present time; "now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:
KJV--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time). See also GSN3569, GSN3570.
Original Strong's Ref. #3765
Romanized ouketi
Pronounced ook-et'-ee
also (separately) ouk eti {ook et'-ee); from GSN3756 and GSN2089; not yet, no longer:
KJV--after that (not), (not) any more, henceforth (hereafter) not, no longer (more), not as yet (now), now no more (not), yet (not).
Again "henceforth" in this passage is rendered from multiple words meaning "FROM NOW" and "NOW NO MORE".
From "THIS MOMENT" (as of the writing of 2 Corinthians 5:16) we no longer know Messiah according to the flesh.
If therefore Yeshu returns in the flesh every believer must die because we are his BODY according to New Covenant Scripture.
A simple yes or no answer will suffice: When you say "literal" do mean that which is visible to the eyes of the flesh?
Boiled down to the essentials, yes, you are understanding daq correctly.
Daq is a master of double-talk. Even his "literal" doesn't mean "literal!"
_____
Shalom, daq.
daq said:
It depends on what you mean by "literal" because literal is SPIRIT and the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of the Master. I do not deny that Yeshua already came into the world in the flesh. However, a man can only give his flesh and blood once; for it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment. Are you suggesting that Yeshua must come again according to that which is visible to the eyes of the flesh when you say literal? If you are then essentially you are denying that he came in the flesh the first time. Likewise please clarify whether or not you accept the understanding of following New Covenant passage:
2 Corinthians 5:16 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
16. Hoste hemeis apo tou nun oudena oidamen katasarka, ei-kai egnokamen kata sarka Christon, alla nun ouketi ginoskomen.
2 Corinthians 5:14-16 KJV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15. And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16. Wherefore henceforth [GSN#575 apo+GSN#3568 nun] know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now [GSN#3568 nun] henceforth [GSN#3765 ouketi] know we him no more.
Original Strong's Ref. #3568
Romanized nun
Pronounced noon
a primary particle of present time; "now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:
KJV--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time). See also GSN3569, GSN3570.
Original Strong's Ref. #3765
Romanized ouketi
Pronounced ook-et'-ee
also (separately) ouk eti {ook et'-ee); from GSN3756 and GSN2089; not yet, no longer:
KJV--after that (not), (not) any more, henceforth (hereafter) not, no longer (more), not as yet (now), now no more (not), yet (not).
Again "henceforth" in this passage is rendered from multiple words meaning "FROM NOW" and "NOW NO MORE".
From "THIS MOMENT" (as of the writing of 2 Corinthians 5:16) we no longer know Messiah according to the flesh.
If therefore Yeshu returns in the flesh every believer must die because we are his BODY according to New Covenant Scripture.
A simple yes or no answer will suffice: When you say "literal" do mean that which is visible to the eyes of the flesh?
Daq, ol' buddy, you've got some SERIOUS problems! When you said, "I do not deny that Yeshua already came into the world in the flesh. However, a man can only give his flesh and blood once; for it is appointed unto men once to die, and with this the judgment. Are you suggesting that Yeshua must come again according to that which is visible to the eyes of the flesh when you say literal? If you are then essentially you are denying that he came in the flesh the first time," you've made some GROSS logical errors.
First of all, you ASSUME that to come into the world in the flesh means that one must die in the flesh. As you quoted indirectly, "it is appointed unto men once to die," and you've correctly understood that Yeshua` DID already die. HOWEVER, your assumption is in error because it is not necessarily so that a man who comes in the flesh must die!
Second, so when you conclude that if Enoch was "essentially ... denying that he came in the flesh the first time," because he suggested that "Yeshua must come again according to that which is visible to the eyes of the flesh," you make your second fallacy: Yeshua` has a body that was LITERALLY RAISED FROM THE DEAD! And, that body CANNOT EVER DIE AGAIN because it is a IMMORTAL BODY!
Consider the following passages together:
Luke 24:33-43
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV
John 20:19-31
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
KJV
John 21:1-14
1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
8 And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, and hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV
The disciples LITERALLY saw the Lord in His incorruptible, immortal body! A LITERAL, PHYSICAL, body that could be handled and felt, a body that could eat and drink, a body that would NEVER DIE AGAIN! A body NOT of "flesh and blood," but a body with "flesh and bones!" He even SAID He was not a spirit (a ghost)!
So, why does everything have to be some sort of play on "supernal words" or an "idiom-parable" for you? Just BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES! Yeshua` PROMISED that He would return - LITERALLY! He said He was going to prepare for us a place, but that He would be back!
So, just open your mind to the very literal truth of the Scriptures and read this again:
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV
It's really a simple matter: Yeshua` was walking along with them and ... LOOK! ... He was taken up and disappeared behind a cloud! And, while they were studying the sky as He was ascending, suddenly there were two men standing beside them in white clothes, who said, "You guys from the Galiyl, why are you staring up into the sky? This same Yeshua` who is taken up from you into the sky, shall so arrive in the same way as you have seen Him go into the sky!" I.e., He is going to LITERALLY DESCEND to the earth FROM the clouds in the sky in the reverse steps!
These two guys probably startled them when they started talking! They didn't see them walk up to them because they were gazing so intently at the sky where Yeshua` had disappeared from sight! (That may have been because they DIDN'T walk up to them but just appeared, but we're not told either way!)
We're also not told where these two guys went afterward! However, this is no "parable!" This is not a "story" (which implies fiction). This is an ACCOUNT; this is RECORDED HISTORY! This is a LITERAL EVENT in the lives of these disciples! They became EYE-WITNESSES of this event!
P.S., I should have added that "nun ouketi" simply means "away from the Now" or "away from the present," i.e., the FUTURE!